Has Facebook superseded Nettime?

[Florian Cramer-6]

For about two years, I've noted that a sizable part of the media
artistic, -activist and -scholarly community that makes up Nettime has
moved to Facebook, in the sense of being more active and networked there
than here. At the same time, there seems to no public discussion of
this fact, making Facebook an elephant in the room. I'm speculating that
Facebook is seen as a friendlier environment - but nobody dares to
mention it because, among others, it's a corporate site built on blatant
user data mining [see http://www.facebook.com/help.php?page=863] with
scary surveillance and privacy implications.

What is the solution? Is something like Facebook needed, but as a
decentralized, non-data-minable, user-owned system?

-F

--
blog:     http://en.pleintekst.nl
homepage: http://cramer.pleintekst.nl:70
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[Ana Valdés]

There is a Spanish crew working on that, a free software developing site
based in social networks of activists. And Ning exist, but Facebook is
graphic userfriendly and has an easy interface, it's hard to match it.


Ana


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[kitestramuort]

Florian Cramer wrote:

>
> What is the solution? Is something like Facebook needed, but as a
> decentralized, non-data-minable, user-owned system?

the fsf is building a likewise project from scratch. it's called daisychain

http://daisycha.in






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[russegger]

interesting point because of the direction of questioning it this way.

i guess multi-structures in infotainment and content-spreading have
to becoming more convergent when most of the people you know are
dislocated via several threads on facebook and/or twitter, tumblr,
rss, a.s.o. mailinglists in this perspective are just to bulky to
handle and to quantitative in selection-models of individual needs in
many cases.

on the other hand the read/write style has really changed a lot
through so-called social networking, also the way of communication-
styles. not to support this issue totally but just look at the nettime
posts - they are long, context rich and mostly good written - means:
time- consuming and think-intensive (read/write) in this sense i
guess not the friendlier but the "verbindlichkeits" (conntectivity?)
level seems scale-free on FB supports multidynamic but maybe less
reflective/critical engagement

for sure the side effects you mentioned appear. for artists this is
a challenge as well (for example fresco gamba aka flash gordo aka
yuko.at) along others deal with social-network platforms as art-forms
to delineate abstract levels of usability and attention.

just my bits and pieces - but i would join a nettime facebook

best

GR





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[Sean Smith-8]

Not to suggest that everything should be done on Facebook, or any
other service/community for that matter, but isn't part of responsible
activism to engage this space and find how it works, what is possible
there, which barriers are firm and which are smooth, if so many
millions of people are using it?

For example, if in Facebook I write a Note, I am able to tag up to
30 people from my Friend list to let them know the content of the
note is about them (the official use). But perhaps I want to share a
piece of information with them, or let them know that their ideas were
responsible for the ideas in my note, and so my tagging takes on a
different semantic meaning.

What if we substituted Speech and Public Square for Note
and Friend List? The 30-tag limit all of a sudden becomes a
technical/corporate-legislated barrier to public assembly. A solution
might be to post the note a second time and tag 30 more people, but
then the ensuing dialogue would be fragmented across the two threads.

Perhaps this is a trivial example. But the "what is possible" of
Nettime is a relatively known quantity with a fairly select audience.
Facebook, on the other hand, has a general audience of millions,
and its "what is possible" is still relatively unknown, I would
argue. Maybe it's not so much that Facebook is "friendlier" for media
artistic, activist and scholarly communities, but rather that its
quasi-public space is where work needs to be done?

Sean

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------





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Nettime might consider a move to Ning which has a Facebook look
without being as addicted to infotainment. Some of us started an
Open Anthropology Cooperative there four months ago. We have almost
2,000 members already and quite a lot of activity, generally of a
serious intellectual sort. What is impressive is the global reach. We
are creating a new portal that would lead to the social networking
site and to a repository at wikidot, a publishing outlet and other
possibilities that need not be tied to the Ning format.

http://openanthcoop.ning.com/

Keith




--
Prof. Keith Hart
www.thememorybank.co.uk
135 rue du Faubourg Poissonniere
75009 Paris, France
Cell: [phone]

--00c09ffb4d2fd1287404742af7e9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Nettime might consider a move to Ning which has a Facebook look without bei=
ng as addicted to infotainment. Some of us started an Open Anthropology Coo=
perative there four months ago. We have almost 2,000 members already and qu=
ite a lot of activity, generally of a serious intellectual sort. What is im=
pressive is the global reach. We are creating a new portal that would lead =
to the social networking site and to a repository at wikidot, a publishing =
outlet and other possibilities that need not be tied to the Ning format.<br=
>
<br><a href=3D"http://openanthcoop.ning.com/">http://openanthcoop.ning.com/=
</a><br><br>Keith<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at=
 10:58 PM, Florian Cramer <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:fc-nettim=
e@...">fc-nettime@...</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
For about two years, I've noted that a sizable part of the media<br>
artistic, -activist and -scholarly community that makes up Nettime has<br>
moved to Facebook, in the sense of being more active and networked there<br=
>
than here. At the same time, there seems to no public discussion of<br>
this fact, making Facebook an elephant in the room. I'm speculating tha=
t<br>
Facebook is seen as a friendlier environment - but nobody dares to<br>
mention it because, among others, it's a corporate site built on blatan=
t<br>
user data mining [see <a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/help.php?page=3D86=
3" target=3D"_blank">http://www.facebook.com/help.php?page=3D863</a>] with<=
br>
scary surveillance and privacy implications.<br>
<br>
What is the solution? Is something like Facebook needed, but as a<br>
decentralized, non-data-minable, user-owned system?<br>
<br>
-F<br>
<br>
--<br>
blog: =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://en.pleintekst.nl" target=3D"_blank">http://=
en.pleintekst.nl</a><br>
homepage: <a href=3D"http://cramer.pleintekst.nl:70" target=3D"_blank">http=
://cramer.pleintekst.nl:70</a><br>
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0gopher://<a href=3D"http://cramer.pleintekst.nl" target=
=3D"_blank">cramer.pleintekst.nl</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
# =A0distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission<=
br>
# =A0<nettime> =A0is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,<br>
# =A0collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets<br>
# =A0more info: <a href=3D"http://mail.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l</a><br>
# =A0archive: <a href=3D"http://www.nettime.org" target=3D"_blank">http://w=
ww.nettime.org</a> contact: <a href=3D"mailto:nettime@...">nettime@kei=
n.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Prof. Keith Hart<br><a =
href=3D"http://www.thememorybank.co.uk">www.thememorybank.co.uk</a><br>135 =
rue du Faubourg Poissonniere<br>75009 Paris, France<br>Cell: [phone]<b=
r>


--00c09ffb4d2fd1287404742af7e9--


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[Andres Manniste-2]

I know that I am a lot more careful about what I write (or say) on
Facebook but a lot more careful about what I say (or write) on Nettime.
There is a sort of a paranoid autocensorship of content that I employ on
Facebook where on Nettime I feel that one can say anything as long as it
is succinct and somewhat literate.

Andres


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[chad scov1lle]

My .02..

Social Technologies are a novelty in the tool space that are a opportunity for all of us, creative cultural producers and otherwise, to shift and engineer the relationships and communications mechanisms around how we interact with friends, family, and colleagues.

I was a late-comer to Facebook, but I have utilized it *extensively* not only to spread information to disparate groups of people who otherwise would not be reading or accessing the type of content pushed through the nettime list, but also to facilitate a forum for positive and constructive discussion to occur. Most of the people that are reacting to the posts are the people who you would least expect to be interested of be reading it for that matter. Nettime is a truly extraordinary engagement framework in which a lot of very interesting ideas are discussed, but it's specialization does create a considerable barrier to entry for people who might be interested but lack the ability to decode some of the ways and language we use to interpret and critique technology, media, and culture. It is a niche viritual space that isn't necessarily appropriate for the commons, which I feel social technologies address, and which I have practical experience to back up with.

The fact that it is a capitalized sphere of profit, as is television, as is radio, does not necessarily disinter it from a realm of possibillities for alternative discourse. Like I said, as an experiment, I've put things up ranging from youtube clips on HAARP to Joseph Farrell interviews, to MacCluhan quotes. The fact that the people who are most responsive to the information is the surpise, and frankly, makes the tool a community builder.

One of the most important principals of the Outformation Age is faciliating total awareness, total informationalization, and total presence without being known or seen. Engineering clones of ourselves that contain a semblance of ourselves which are able to sustain meaningful communal interactions with our friends, families, and colleagues, but at the same time, unable to be mined by marketing bots and research droids. Even further, thwarting the attempts at such intrusions by incapacitating the attempts at data mining. It's arp and cache poisoing taken up a few levels in the OSI model deep into the applcation layer.

/*Chad Scovil13
/* TWITTER ME >> ad3ptnanosec






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[Jaime Magiera]

On Sep 22, 2009, at 7:48 AM, kitestramuort wrote:

> the fsf is building a likewise project from scratch. it's called  
> daisychain
>
> http://daisycha.in


Hi,

There are a lot of small projects like this getting started, with  
folks attempting to take a new approach to social networking. It will  
be interesting to see which ones gain traction. A lot of small, under-
used projects won't be very helpful. Those that succeed will need to  
have a similar level of ubiquity as Facebook, or have a well-developed  
API for interoperability between the smaller projects.

technical aside: A detriment of this project might be that it's being  
written in PHP, which is not as secure or robust as some of the other  
options. I understand the desire for portability, but there are  
several other languages that would be more apropos.

Jaime Magiera

Sensory Research, Inc.
http://www.sensoryresearch.net







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[Tim Syth]

Hello all,

The Nettime vs. Facebook debate is admittedly fun to think through, but
is also seems like an unnecessary polemical comparison of a shovel and a
sieve--both of which are useful tools.

Shovels (such as Facebook) are good for excavation of the veins of
information flowing through culture. It is critical to be aware of the
times, even if that means bearing witness to the adventures of Britney,
knowing what sit-com is hot where, or being aware of the most popular
Facebook app (Superwall). The shallowness of Facebook and its cousins is
wonderful for keeping tabs on the cultural pulse.

On the flipside, I find the sieves (Nettime and the like) to be more
intensely focused perspectives. Such sieves definitely take more time
and energy to process, but the facts that the user interface isn't there
and that one must often read multiple and lengthy emails for each thread
creates hurdles for those who want to participate. These hurdles require
a more active commitment to the process, regardless of content, and it
is this activity and willingness to invest time that contributes a
filtering and intensifying of information that I also find very useful.

The thing is that both the shovel and the sieve are needed to balance
each other out. In my mind, the more important question raised here is
where does such polemic and unfortunately rather conventional thinking
leave us?

Too much intensity without a general awareness or comprehensivity
creates disconnected, ultra-specialized, and rather useless information.
Too much general information without a passionate point of focus creates
tired cliches and uninspired media bites. Either way, productive action
is frequently left on the wayside. I want to hear about inventive and
inspired practices and ideas, whether the platform is a commercial
Facebook or an ivory tower Nettime. The more tools the merrier.
Furthermore, as each of us access a different tool-set and use each of
these tools to different degrees, while still crossing paths somewhere
along the line (perhaps while shoveling on Facebook or sieving on
Nettime), I believe we get a more diversified and enriching experiences.

The crucial crux of this situation is that we each need to know when to
use which tool, to fully utilize the tools we choose, and to be willing
to let tools and live and die based upon their usability. When Nettime's
time is up we'll know because we'll stop using it.

Until then, active participation and dirt under the nails are what
interest me.

Cheers,

Tim





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[marc garrett]

Hi Florian, Ana & all,

I think that you have brought up something which is definitely
important, yet at the same time I feel it highlights a difference of
behaviours in respect of what people choose to do with their time when
using the Internet. Regarding our own list 'netbehaviour.org', part
of the Furtherfield neighbourhood of decentralized, nodes on-line
and off-line; a while back we thought that we'd try an experiment in
asking the list users' community, to move over to Ning. It is like
Facebook, but there is more control. About 50 odd joined, but this
left about 480 users still more interested in staying on the list.
Because the list's behaviour evolves around open and free discussions
in collectivley agreed terms, people felt that Ning was more useful
as a project-related promotional tool of artists projects, rather
than having both of these choices and more which was happening on the
Netbehaviour list at that time.

 >For about two years, I've noted that a sizable part of the media
 >artistic, -activist and -scholarly community that makes up Nettime
 >has moved to Facebook, in the sense of being more active and
 >networked there than here.

I am not sure if there is a virtual exodus taking place from here
to Facebook, but I do understand your concerns. I have noticed
various shifts and diverse movements and expansions, where peers and
associates and friends have joined Facebook. Having said this, I
have not noticed people leaving the list (netbehaviour) so to join
Facebook instead, in fact it has steadily grown daily. I am not sure
whether this is necessarily about 'either or the other', I feel that
a closer observation shows that Internet users, whether they belong
to this list or not are more expanding their uses of the Internet by
subscribing to different platforms for various purposes and needs.
Different platforms offer different functions and contexts to fulfill
whatever reasons these may be. For instance, many who are involved in
media art practice use Facebook as a promotional tool mainly to bring
in new audiences to their projects, ideas, events and publications.

Even though, I have not been a regular contributor to the Nettime list
through the many years whilst, I have been involved in media arts and
various connected practices. I have been reading texts and discussions
supplied for all to read on here for a long time now and value its
dedicated and disciplined approach of actively being engaged with the
raw and critical contexts of an incredibly progressive and dynamic
culture, of which we are all part of. It has informed me, questioned
my assumptions and annpyed me, but it is special and unique and of
course needs to change but for the right reasons. It's the community
that uses this list that really matters more than whether it fits
into external frameworks. Each list has its own agendas reflecting
their own function, purpose and identity accordingly. I would advocate
more of a crossover by many who use this list, not necessarily onto
mainsteam platforms such as Facebook, this is going to happen anyway,
but it would be useful for our shared culture, especially now, that
we see each other more and become less isolated before we vanish
into hermetically sealed elite groups, in competeition each other
just because we behave differently when really we are part of larger
context.

wishing all well.

marc

www.furtherfield.org




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[Alexandre Leray-2]

Dear all,

Beyond the issues of privacy and data diversion for marketing
use, what bother me with Facebook is its acceptance of the term
"friendship". What does it mean to be a friend? And what kind of
relations are people making there? Nettime has for sure its issues but
to me it privileges deep-rooted relations. That said, Nettime might
probably take advantage to be more visible, but not at the cost of a
social short-circuit.

I don't know anything about Ning and daisycha.in, they look pretty
pretty close to FB minus the privacy issues.

Best,

Alexandre Leray


marc garrett wrote:
> Hi Florian, Ana & all,
>
> I think that you have brought up something which is definitely
> important, yet at the same time I feel it highlights a difference of

<...>

--
Alexandre Leray
http://www.alexandreleray.com/
[phone]


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[Antti Jarvinen-2]

Ana Valdés writes:

 > There is a Spanish crew working on that, a free software developing site
 > based in social networks of activists. And Ning exist, but Facebook is
 > graphic userfriendly and has an easy interface, it's hard to match it.

Rumours are that there is freebook on freenet. Some parts of that are
not a computer program, I've been told ; maybe programming force would
be in order to make that happen?

--
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[Juergen Fenn]

Florian Cramer schrieb:

> What is the solution? Is something like Facebook needed, but as a
> decentralized, non-data-minable, user-owned system?

Probably yes, because Facebook is a closed shop. If you don't join
Facebook you're cut off from everything that happens inside. That would
be a strange place for a list discussing net culture, wouldn't it?

Regards,
Jürgen (no Facebook user).





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[jaromil]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


re all,

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 10:58:08PM +0200, Florian Cramer wrote:

> What is the solution? Is something like Facebook needed, but as a
> decentralized, non-data-minable, user-owned system?

it's kind of funny now to report  here, when about a year ago i didn't
even  knew FaceBook  until you  show  me the  abyss :)  and while  you
removed yourself from it, I've kept exploring its meanders and forcing
my way through this "new mainstream" communication platform, something
hackers are called to be proficient at.

so hereby  a dweller's  opinion on FB  (and specifically FB,  not just
social networking in  general), from the point of  view of an Internet
native (and hacker, FWIW).

IRL Facebook has grown out of  a venture capital with a simple concept
on usability  and a huge momentum  in exploitation of  browsers by web
2.0 trends, arguably an inane  vision of horror for digital architects
and apparently a good  investment even for governmental agencies: some
people  in  dream  even  to   attribute  FB  with  some  authority  in
authenticating citizens.  Plus let's  not ignore that the platform, as
already  demonstrated by  Second  Life experiments,  has a  remarkable
potential for commerce.

Followed  by huge  mega-corporations  investments, FB  realized a  new
networked space in parallel with other efforts as Orkut and Friendster
- - I'll  be   willingly  omitting   those  because  similar,   as  well
nation-wide social  networking web-platforms (SNWP) here,  as Hyves in
the  Netherlands  or  StudiVZ  in  Germany or  RenRen  in  China,  for
instance.

This initial triad of big  choices (FB, Orkut and Friendster) realised
the   biggest  trans-national   and   trans-thematic  SNWPs,   roughly
summarized by a continental subdivision: Facebook for English speaking
North-America and  Europe, Orkut for South America  and Friendster for
Asia.   This  representation  is  meant to  be  mostly  inspirational,
documenting the  presence of a  demography, rather than  detailing it,
please     refer      to     this     table      for     completeness:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_networking_websites

Given this (still very limited)  background scenario IRL, I'll share a
quick analysis on their network presence.

First the answer to your question; there is no way FB can substitute a
place  for discussion  like  Nettime, nor  a  knowledge resource  like
Usenet.  If smart enough, it might still include them (will the use of
Nettime in  FB, omitting ads, be considered  commercial?)  making them
reachable (incorporated  in a frame,  as it's done for  all redirected
content)  within  its  stupid-proof  infrastructure, but  arguably  it
shouldn't give access to them: imagine how such a flood of interaction
would  break  "intellectual  ecosystems"  as  ours... it  would  be  a
loss-loss situation for all.

As the hype will be over, the  function of FB will be that of an agile
interaction platform  for comments and  link exchange, a  function for
which Google is still planning its "Wave" platform, which can actually
change the scenario and win some sympathy considering is based on open
protocols  as   XMPP  (Jabber)  and  it  might   offer  a  distributed
architecture as it has been for  good old SMTP.

FB is  a quick way  to exchange contacts  with new and old  friends, a
superficial  way  to  investigate  people,  a  possible  platform  for
micro-commerce,  etc.  etc.  Besides  that,  it  is  a popular  public
relation platform for online-pop artists, but as such will be arguably
not  so  prestigious, lacking  the  original  touch  and mystery  that
artists  require to  be  really successful  (this  might open  another
chapter for this inquiry: how social networks will change the world of
art, but let's leave that for another time).

So  I'm arguing  that the  volume of  interaction and  the demographic
composition  of bulletin board  systems, newsgroups  and mailing-lists
won't be  changed by  FB (nor any  other SNWP) because  their inherent
peculiarities, from a technical  and human-machine interface as well a
more intellectual and aesthetic POV. What can arguably happen is that,
as  a  reproduction of  dynamics  already  seen  within the  evolution
between the aforementioned communication platforms, new generations of
netizens will  actually ignore  the past and  join the  convenience of
newer usable  systems, without realising  so easily how such  a choice
implies  a different quality  in online  exchanges, as  well different
demographic contexts.

In front of all this I believe "media theorists and practitioners", as
well  hackers, cannot  snob the  growth of  SNWPs: they  are extremely
interesting network implementations, even  if based on the fundamental
error of  using a web  browser as an  operating system.  In  fact this
latter  point, this  *disastrous*  dynamic  of web  2.0,  is the  real
problem we  should be  addressing and we  should really  fear, closely
connected to the fact SNWPs are all centralised architectures: relying
on obsolete and inefficient  browsing technologies regulated by a weak
and  dumb  (to say  the  least)  governance  as W3C,  heading  towards
scalability problems that will eventually impact the world in terms of
carbon footprint, if  we really want to fly high on  the issue now and
touch the server-hosting aspect.

Back to earth,  there are still many more things to  be said, at least
regarding   surveillance  and   censorship,  as   well   new  economic
opportunities. Leaving  the latter for a deeper  formulation (to which
I'd be  happy to contribute, if  not alone, for a  publication) let me
spend a few more works on the first two.

Surveillance of  FB is really happening  and, given the  nature of the
platform and  its large  base, it reaches  probably a wider  sample of
people, as well  deeper in the subjective minds  (and actions, in some
instances)  than any  other  networking platform  we have  experienced
before, with the still standing  exception of mobile phones.  But this
is also nothing new: investigators  have always had the opportunity to
monitor  people's lives on  the phone  and on  Internet (on  any media
platform offering interaction in fact), those that are backed by State
authorities or hacker super-powers  have always had the opportunity to
peak  into "average" people's  digital privacy  (assuming cryptography
isn't yet  an average  practice), so SNWP  can just  represent another
chapter  into the  next publication  of ETSI  SEC  lawful interception
dossier by Interpol  - *just another chapter*. So the  rise of SNWP is
just  improving a  tendency we  should be  aware of  since  long time,
nothing  to go  mad  about anyway.   After  all, what  this is  really
implying on  the wider  picture is that  there is a  trade-off between
popularity and privacy: while  controversy and rebellion is ������� in
pop-culture  (just think of  Madonna's career  as a  pop singer  for a
quick reference) surveillance is a natural condition and censorship is
the risk for those who live on the bleeding edge.

Now we come to censorship (intended in the wider sense, from an online
post to body imprisonment): it is important to note that censorship is
not  enforced  by  SNWPs  exception made  for  commercial  competition
between themselves. External corporate  and state powers are those who
have interest to enforce a policy on them and this can arguably become
a  business model  for supra-national  SNWPs in  future. OTOH  FB will
actually censor *automatically* every link to any other SNWP, to avoid
the organic propagation of  competitors within its own infrastructure.
Presumably  other  SNWPs  are  doing  the same.   This  is  now  quite
fascinating:  SNWP are such  fluid giants  and have  such a  big media
potential that their weakest spot  is within themselves, they could be
flipped like a glove by the  injection and propagation of a new trend.
They will actually facilitate any other Exodus (meaning people staying
in contact across boundaries move more, mentally and physically), with
exception with  the movement  that will let  them loose  their virtual
citizens  and "biopolitical  value".  As  such, SNWPs  are configuring
themselves  as  way smarter  organisms  than  nation-states and  their
antiquate tax systems.

To conclude  with this torrent of  thoughts (and please  bare with the
contorted prose of this mail, but  I really have no time to proof-read
it now) let  me state that FB and more in  general larger SNWPs aren't
contained  by the Internet,  which cannot  be seen  anymore as  a base
infrastructure, but are in  fact generating bigger networks, providing
interaction to larger user-bases and ultimately hiding the lower layer
of their networking protocols in the cryptic hashes found in their web
URLs, resulting in secret (yet simple) algorithms that let them expand
the Internet  as a  fractal and still  hold the unique  possibility to
crawl its nodes,  establish an heuristic monopoly on  the network they
create.

ciao

- --

jaromil, dyne.org developer, http://jaromil.dyne.org

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[minx]

Perhaps this isn't relevant to the analysis of this vs that but I  
think noone has mentioned a generation gap. None of my graduate  
students know what a list is (Graduate Fine Arts, School of Visual  
Arts, granted not new media  but still).
Best
Perry Bard

On Sep 22, 2009, at 3:40 PM, Alexandre Leray wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Beyond the issues of privacy and data diversion for marketing
> use, what bother me with Facebook is its acceptance of the term
> "friendship". What does it mean to be a friend? And what kind of
> relations are people making there? Nettime has for sure its issues but
> to me it privileges deep-rooted relations. That said, Nettime might
> probably take advantage to be more visible, but not at the cost of a
> social short-circuit.
 <...>

http://www.perrybard.net

http://dziga.perrybard.net


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[jaromil]

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re akkittemmuort'

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 01:48:07PM +0200, kitestramuort wrote:
> the fsf  is building  a likewise project  from scratch.  it's called
> daisychain
>
> http://daisycha.in

the FSF?   i think it's just  some FooCorp proposal and  i'd be really
surprised and kind of deluded  about FSF's myopia in supporting such a
naive  project plan.

besides the objection on PHP language, partially true, the fundamental
limitations  of  daisycha.in's design  are:  "yet another  centralised
architecture"  and "yet another  browser based  communication system",
tainting respectively the scalability and efficiency of the project.

is the Internet a place for  the collective loss of memory (likely so)
or  are  we  voluntarily  ignoring  projects like:

The   Circle  (since   2004!)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Circle
Syndie (since approx. 3 years ago) http://syndie.i2p2.de/
CSpace framework (since approx. 2 year ago) http://cspace.in/

I'd exclude the case of FSF's incompetence on the issue.

sorry to sound harsh, but  this is no training ground, considering the
huge  role social networks  are having  in critical  media situations,
unless we are  just building an entertainment platform  for Iphone and
Martini people, but then we have plenty already.

ciao

- --

jaromil, dyne.org developer, http://jaromil.dyne.org

GPG: 779F E8B5 47C7 3A89 4112  64D0 7B64 3184 B534 0B5E

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[micha cardenas / azdel slade]

Yes, it seems like switching from a mailing list to something like
Elgg.org might be more useful and more palatable to the anti-corporate
folks on the list. Even a ning.com network would have lots of new
functionality without all the noise on facebook. I'd love to see nettime
networking more into the networks we're critiquing here. Isn't that part
of the point?

micha


Florian Cramer wrote:

> For about two years, I've noted that a sizable part of the media
> artistic, -activist and -scholarly community that makes up Nettime has
> moved to Facebook, in the sense of being more active and networked there
> than here. At the same time, there seems to no public discussion of
> this fact, making Facebook an elephant in the room. I'm speculating that
> Facebook is seen as a friendlier environment - but nobody dares to
> mention it because, among others, it's a corporate site built on blatant
> user data mining [see http://www.facebook.com/help.php?page=863] with
> scary surveillance and privacy implications.
>
> What is the solution? Is something like Facebook needed, but as a
> decentralized, non-data-minable, user-owned system?
>
> -F

--

micha cardenas

Artist/Researcher, Experimental Game Lab, http://experimentalgamelab.net
Calit2 Researcher, http://bang.calit2.net

blog: http://transreal.org


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[Evan Buswell-2]

See also riseup.net's crabgrass:

https://we.riseup.net/crabgrass/about

Evan

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 2:35 AM, jaromil <jaromil@...> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
>
> re all,
>
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 10:58:08PM +0200, Florian Cramer wrote:
>
>> What is the solution? Is something like Facebook needed, but as a
>> decentralized, non-data-minable, user-owned system?
>
> it's kind of funny now to report  here, when about a year ago i didn't

 <...>


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[Patrice Riemens]

Right On! And there is possibly a 'geographic' gap as well. Nat Muller
told me the other day that in Egypt, 'nobody' uses e-mail any longer,
everything is on FaceBook. That probably holds true in a lot of 'younger'
countries. If you're not on FaceBook (and/or Twitter), you're out of the
loop. And my one generation younger friends in Amsterdam tell me basically
the same. And I do indeed feel being more and more out of the loop.

To me, it looks fairly hopeless: (i) we won't close the numbers gap with
FB with any f/oss / p2p application. (ii) many of us won't make the jump,
but if they do, they'll leave the old mediums. (iii) 'free' (as in beer)
web 2.0 apps are possibly going to collapse in a near future under the
twin crush of energy over-consumption and financial constraints, leaving
quite a many people and groups beached.

I dunno, I felt very confy with the old 'new' media, lists, e-mail, etq. I
remember Geert Lovink saying once "no new media before the old ones are
finished" ...

I'm afraid I am bowing out.

Cheers all the same,
patrizio and Diiiinooos!
(got a new samovar, a real one! http://www.sobaci.com/osman/semaver.jpg
works on charcoal, and yet is very easy to handle & cool-down & clean...)

> Perhaps this isn't relevant to the analysis of this vs that but I
> think noone has mentioned a generation gap. None of my graduate
> students know what a list is (Graduate Fine Arts, School of Visual
> Arts, granted not new media  but still).
 <...>


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