Help Wanted: Full Time 4D Programmer

[Lori Thelen]

*Programmer: Full-time,  non-union position in the Johnston office.  Will serve technology needs  agency-wide.  Requirements: Associate degree in Computer Science,  Management Information Systems (MIS) or related field. Necessary skills  include organization, effective oral and written communication, strong  interpersonal skills, above average math, problem solving and  analytical skills. Prefer Bachelors degree in Computer Science,  Management Information Systems (MIS) or related field. Background and  experience in computer programming with rapid application development  tools such as 4th Dimension, Access, Visual Basic, SQL Server,  PowerBuilder, or other similar tools. Familiarity and understanding of  Java, JavaScript, SQL, XML, HTML, .Net, Cold Fusion, and relational  database design concepts.
Apply at http://www.aea11.k12.ia.us/employment/.

Lori Thelen
Information Systems Manager
Heartland Area Education Agency 11
6500 Corporate Drive
Johnston, IA 50131
[phone] x14669
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[dlittle.nospam]

To all those looking for work at the present time, I interviewed for
this position and would HIGHLY recommend both the organization, the
area, and the people.  I interviewed with the director and 3 others
and the 'feel' wasn't stuffy in the least bit -- it was very relaxed
and I felt like I was talking to people I'd known for a long time.
I've already told them not to be surprised if they hear from me at
some point either reapplying for a position or visiting on vacation.

For anyone looking at the position and thinking the salary is low as
posted, please take a look at the cost of living in the greater Des
Moines area either using something like CNN money or just the housing
listings on desmoines.craigslist.org -- it's a very nice area with low
traffic, a highly rated primary school system AND IT'S CHEAP.  What
exactly do I mean?  Decent 3BR homes for $800.  The most expensive
property I could find was a 5 bedroom furnished executive home on 6.5
acres for $2600 -- I'd say compare that in California but I don't know
anywhere you can get 6.5 acres.

Ultimately, I chose to stay in my current location after being offered
a position and salary bump but this is a great opportunity for the
right person -- I just wasn't the right person at this time.

Thanks,

Dennis

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Lori Thelen<lthelen@...> wrote:

> *Programmer: Full-time,  non-union position in the Johnston office.  Will serve technology needs  agency-wide.  Requirements: Associate degree in Computer Science,  Management Information Systems (MIS) or related field. Necessary skills  include organization, effective oral and written communication, strong  interpersonal skills, above average math, problem solving and  analytical skills. Prefer Bachelors degree in Computer Science,  Management Information Systems (MIS) or related field. Background and  experience in computer programming with rapid application development  tools such as 4th Dimension, Access, Visual Basic, SQL Server,  PowerBuilder, or other similar tools. Familiarity and understanding of  Java, JavaScript, SQL, XML, HTML, .Net, Cold Fusion, and relational  database design concepts.
> Apply at http://www.aea11.k12.ia.us/employment/.
>
> Lori Thelen
> Information Systems Manager
> Heartland Area Education Agency 11
> 6500 Corporate Drive
> Johnston, IA 50131
> [phone] x14669
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[Neil Dennis]

> The most expensive
> property I could find was a 5 bedroom furnished executive home on 6.5

> acres for $2600


Dennis,

I went to see where you could get a 5 bedroom house for 6.5 acres for  
$2,600. The first page I pulled up ranged from $500,000 - $900,000 :)  
also the salary was not listed that I could see.

http://www.homes.com/Content/ListingSearchResults.cfm?City=JOHNSTON&State=IA&Bedrooms=&FullBaths=&MinPrice=&MaxPrice=&PriceRange=&AmenitiesList=&PropType=%20&TotalRecs=77&MinSqFt=&MaxSqFt=&LotSize=&MinYear=&MaxYear=&Canada=0&OrderBy=price%3AD&FirstRec=1


Neil
--
Neil Dennis
4D Developer since 1990

GreaText - Designing Software for the Way You Work
25 Holly Lane
Farmington, NH 03835

mailto:ndennis@...
http://www.greatext.com/


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[dlittle.nospam]

Neal,

I think the only place you'll find a house for sale for $2600 is
outside the US -- someplace like Pakastan or India. This was a rental.
 Looking at recent listing, found a 4BR/3.5BA/3CG for $1650 as about
the most expensive at
<http://desmoines.craigslist.org/apa/1245959778.html>.  For those that
don't feel like looking, Urbandale is about 5 miles from where you'd
be working.

FWIW: When I lived in Mountain View, CA (south tip of SF Bay Area)
about 7 years ago, I was paying $1400/month for a 2BR/1BA DUMP in a
7-plex -- and I mean that in the most flattering way.  While I haven't
looked recently, I doubt housing rentals have dropped.

Dennis

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Neil Dennis<ndennis@...> wrote:

>> The most expensive
>> property I could find was a 5 bedroom furnished executive home on 6.5
>
>> acres for $2600
>
>
> Dennis,
>
> I went to see where you could get a 5 bedroom house for 6.5 acres for
> $2,600. The first page I pulled up ranged from $500,000 - $900,000 :) also
> the salary was not listed that I could see.
>
> http://www.homes.com/Content/ListingSearchResults.cfm?City=JOHNSTON&State=IA&Bedrooms=&FullBaths=&MinPrice=&MaxPrice=&PriceRange=&AmenitiesList=&PropType=%20&TotalRecs=77&MinSqFt=&MaxSqFt=&LotSize=&MinYear=&MaxYear=&Canada=0&OrderBy=price%3AD&FirstRec=1
>
>
> Neil
> --
> Neil Dennis
> 4D Developer since 1990
>
> GreaText - Designing Software for the Way You Work
> 25 Holly Lane
> Farmington, NH 03835
>
> mailto:ndennis@...
> http://www.greatext.com/
>
>
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[Sujit Shah]

> I think the only place you'll find a house for sale for $2600 is
> outside the US -- someplace like Pakastan or India.

You got to be kidding! Right? I dont think you can buy even a slum
dwelling for that kind of money! AFAIK average price of a slum (10' x
10') in Mumbai will cost you approx $20,000 - $50,000 USD!

And on the other end of the spectrum is the $1 Billion dollar house.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/06/02/india-mumbai-palace-faces-markets-cx_rd_0602ambani.html

So I am not sure which world you are living in?
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[Sujit Shah]

> Also talking about 4D developer jobs. It is tough out there. Specially
> nothing much in UK.

Luckily we have a vertical market application that keeps me and some
Odesk web designers going! We try to do most of our work in WordPress
and is suffice for the websites our customers need.

As 4D developers you do not get the safety and protection of an
enterprise level budget where you can charge $1000 for each line of
code. And you also cannot be part of a large development team as 4D is
not scaled or suited for that either from the development or
deployment point of view. 4D can be very addictive and you run the
risk of narrowing your employment choices.

Perhaps this is the best time to start something new or learn and work
with more languages (perhaps C++ and other low level languages). When
you get something better you can move on and put your project on the
back burner. Develop a new product - open source it - or give it for
free. I am sure you are doing all of this so anyway this is my $0.02
cents worth.
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[Pat Bensky]

2009/7/2 Sujit Shah <sujit.au@...>

> As 4D developers you do not get the safety and protection of an
> enterprise level budget where you can charge $1000 for each line of
> code.


Tell me who's paying that and what for and I'll re-train! I can easily write
20 lines of code where two would do the job :0

Pat

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tel: [phone]
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[Sujit Shah]

>
> Tell me who's paying that and what for and I'll re-train! I can easily write
> 20 lines of code where two would do the job :0
>

Well this is a true story. It is a large consulting company. I know a
few project managers there. After the software project is complete
they will estimate the cost on the number of lines of code and actual
development time taken. Interstingly they say it provides a very good
estimate..
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[Tom Benedict]

Sujit Shah writes:

> >Tell me who's paying that and what for and I'll re-train! I can easily write
> >20 lines of code where two would do the job :0

>Well this is a true story. It is a large consulting company. I know a
>few project managers there. After the software project is complete
>they will estimate the cost on the number of lines of code and actual
>development time taken. Interestingly they say it provides a very good
>estimate..

This is, of course, because of the fact that in any well run software development project, actually writing the code is very small fraction of the effort required to complete the project. Writing the code is just the tip of the iceberg in an SDLC. Terse languages would result in a higher cost per line, so you probably couldn't get $1,000/line out of inherently verbose 4D code.

Tom Benedict
Free & Clear, Inc



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[Zahir Lalani]

Balinder

Since you are in CMS mode, also check out Joomla

Z

-----Original Message-----
From: 4d_tech-bounces@... [mailto:4d_tech-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Balinder Walia
Sent: 03 July 2009 10:24
To: 4D iNug Technical
Subject: Re: Help Wanted: Full Time 4D Programmer

I would like to thank everyone who have asked me to send my resume. I really
do appreciate it.
Another quick note:
- I have started my own company last month - Tenthmatrix Information Systems
Ltd. registered in England and Wales. So I will be able to work across the
globe. Point is I am not just limited to work in EU. I can deliver in US /
Australia too. However I'd prefer to work for myself as a contractor rather
than permanent.
- Doing website for it as we speak in Drupal - http://www.tenthmatrix.co.uk/
- Playing around with Drupal setup - theming, modules, CCK, Taxonomy, SEO,
WYSIWYG editors etc. So far it looks like writing our own CMS systems in 4D
was purely re-inventing the wheel scenario. Just making my point so that
someone else can learn a lesson - before you write an application in any
system make sure you have studied the target audience and absolutely sure
there is a market for your ideas.

Best,
Balinder

>
>
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[Sujit Shah]

> Writing the code is just the tip of the iceberg in an SDLC.

I thought working in 4D liberated us from any form of SDLC ;-)
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[Peter Jakobsson-2]

What's wrong with the biz list ?

All these things are interesting background.

Peter

On 3 Jul 2009, at 11:54, Balinder Walia wrote:

> If we are told off we can move this discussion to Linkedin

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[Peter Jakobsson-2]

On 3 Jul 2009, at 11:23, Balinder Walia wrote:

>  - before you write an application in any
> system make sure you have studied the target audience and  
> absolutely sure
> there is a market for your ideas


That advice is a bit too sensible for hardened optimist 4D vertical  
market speculator developer who prefers to subscribe to the "code  
now, find market later" business methodology.

I might just have to hear it a few more hundred times myself.

Peter

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[Peter Jakobsson-2]

On 3 Jul 2009, at 12:06, Balinder Walia wrote:

> Nothing with biz list. Linkedin has lot more features and exposure  
> in my opinion.

Well, I subscribe to the 4D Biz list but there's never any traffic on  
it.

Years back it used to be busy - there were interesting discussions  
about every topic going. I don't know why it's so dead now. It would  
be good if it was brought to life again.

Peter

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[Mark Jeffreys]

>From Balinder Walia on Fri, 3 Jul 2009 11:06:44 +0100
 

> Peter
>  
> Nothing with biz list. Linkedin has lot more features and exposure in
> my opinion.
>  
> Sent from my iPhone
>  
> On 3 Jul 2009, at 11:03, Peter Jakobsson <lists@...> wrote:
>  
>> What's wrong with the biz list ?
>>
>> All these things are interesting background.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> On 3 Jul 2009, at 11:54, Balinder Walia wrote:
>>
>>> If we are told off we can move this discussion to Linkedin

    Balinder:

        That¹s a problem for those of us in the corporate world. Many of us
cannot use outside webmail/social networking/forum sites due to firewall
restrictions, and in the case of financial institutions there are SEC and/or
other regulations that limit outside access as well.

        So the biz list is preferable for me, and others too I suspect.

        Thanks,

        -- MLJ

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Creative Services
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San Francisco CA

Warning: All e-mail sent to this address will be received by the Charles
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by someone other than the recipient.  

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