How to avoid page refresh with jquery in typo3 ?

[chris-759]

hello,

i am completely new to jquery .. what i would like to do is one simple
thing, have my page contents load without a browser refresh on a typo3
site.

Is this very hard to do ? I couldn't find any extension that easily
allows to do this ... i would like something like this site:
http://typo3.lexmarketing.eu/index.php?id=startseite

can someone explain to me the basic steps i need to get this to work ?

Thanks for any help with this, i've been trying unsucessfully for the
last 2 days to find a tutorial or info about using AJAX libs to avoid
pagerefresh and load content in the background and then just replace
the content in the page instead of reloading a full page.

maybe this is really simple to do ?

[Michel Belleville]

Yes indeed, you don't know the super-secret website to get answers to questions :
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=jquery+tutorial

Now jQuery users, especially when new should consider reading the api, especially since jQuery's api is so readable and not very long. For exemple, this may answer most of your questions regarding jquery for a start :
http://docs.jquery.com/Tutorials:Getting_Started_with_jQuery
http://docs.jquery.com/Core
http://docs.jquery.com/Selectors
http://docs.jquery.com/Ajax

You don't even have to read it all, just picking elements you feel you need might be just right.

Michel Belleville

2009/11/6 chris <cs@...>

hello,

i am completely new to jquery .. what i would like to do is one simple
thing, have my page contents load without a browser refresh on a typo3
site.

Is this very hard to do ? I couldn't find any extension that easily
allows to do this ... i would like something like this site:
http://typo3.lexmarketing.eu/index.php?id=startseite

can someone explain to me the basic steps i need to get this to work ?

Thanks for any help with this, i've been trying unsucessfully for the
last 2 days to find a tutorial or info about using AJAX libs to avoid
pagerefresh and load content in the background and then just replace
the content in the page instead of reloading a full page.

maybe this is really simple to do ?

[chris-759]

mhh .. yeah well, GIYF and RTFM ...

would it really have taken you that much more time to answer the
question instead of lecturing me ? in any case thx for taking the time
to respond ...

i did google my fingers bloody on this issue and read a variety of
manuals of several JS libraries, however i'm not a very skilled
Javascript programmer, i know my way around typo3 but not so much
around complex code, so unfortunately after a couple of days of
researching i turned up nothing except the link posted above that has
much to do with using AJAX with typo3. i'm near the point of giving
up ... i know it's possible (see the weblink posted above) but it
seems to be a secret well buried or to complicate for me to find/
understand

so pardon me if before i read another entire set of manuals and loose
days i ask a couple of simple questions to the masters:

can this be done with Jquery ?
Is it hard/complicated/laborious to do ?
How do you do it step by step ?
Where do i start ?

thx if you can bother to share your wisdom :)

[chris-759]

If you do have a direct link to a tutorial/article/documentation of
how you avoid page reloads/refresh with JQ (or any other AJAX lib) in
typo3 Front-end sites, please do share it !

[Michel Belleville]

Let me rephrase my lecture then.

Your question is over-specific especially for someone who has no idea on how jQuery works and not much on how JavaScript works. So I gave you a first link that is the most basic question you could have googled that answers with a load of tutorials and explainations on how jQuery works, expecting you to read at least the first tutorial to get a first clue. It's 10 minutes worth reading, 10 minutes worth testing, so I guess instead of whining at my answer you could have just tried that.

Then I gave you specific api links that points to the very basic and easy to use functions that can solve your problem. Consider them like bricks and mortar. If you don't know how to use them, don't expect your wall to be very well built, or built at all for that matter. Again it's 20 minutes something worth reading and testing for each link, so in something like 2 hours you could have got started by just following my easy steps instead of whining because you felt lectured.

Plus, I gave you an easy methodology to solve most of your software design problems on how to get started on a subject :
1/ search for an easy "getting started" tutorial, keep your specific questions for when you need them (that's when you know enough about the subject to phrase your question like "I've tried that and it doesn't work, anybody knows why ?" instead of "I'd like to do something, could someone do it for me ?")
2/ once you've got started, look at the api, look at the plugins, most of the time you'll find something that does at least part of the job out of the box
3/ ask for more help if you encounter specific problems, preferably with bits of code that doesn't work as you expect

And now I'm adding as a bonus :
4/ when someone lecture you, take the lecture, read it, try to apply the advices skillfully hidden in plain sight and see if it leads you somewhere before whining that you've been lectured
5/ when the only person that answers you lectures you, there's a good chance you've done something wrong when you asked in the first place, especially when nobody else answers after that

Hoping this helps.

Michel Belleville

2009/11/6 chris <cs@...>

If you do have a direct link to a tutorial/article/documentation of
how you avoid page reloads/refresh with JQ (or any other AJAX lib) in
typo3 Front-end sites, please do share it !

[Gerrit Kuilder-2]

Hi Chris,

I understand your frustration, it is like asking how to replace a window
and being told to become an engineer first.
I also am a mere consumer of jquery and have been frustrated by finding
the right stuff, trying to get it to work and finding out later that the
results are not what I was looking for.
Especially the lack of a very basic sample that shows the code working
can be a nightmare, you can waste hours.

Off my soapbox onto your issue:
Taconite http://jquery.malsup.com/taconite/ might do what you want to
do: reloading/replacing parts of a page without the need to load the
whole page, this comes with good examples and documentation.

One thing you have to be aware off is that the data passed back to the
page has to be XML/XHTML, opening the link in a new window in firefox is
a good way to check if this is the case, and you should use utf8 , so no
  but the utf version of it (I hope you don't mind one more Google
for that ;-) )

Unfortunately I don't know anything about typo3 so I can't help you with
integrating it.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Gerrit Kuilder



On 11/06/2009 10:47 AM, chris wrote:

> mhh .. yeah well, GIYF and RTFM ...
>
> would it really have taken you that much more time to answer the
> question instead of lecturing me ? in any case thx for taking the time
> to respond ...
>
> i did google my fingers bloody on this issue and read a variety of
> manuals of several JS libraries, however i'm not a very skilled
> Javascript programmer, i know my way around typo3 but not so much
> around complex code, so unfortunately after a couple of days of
> researching i turned up nothing except the link posted above that has
> much to do with using AJAX with typo3. i'm near the point of giving
> up ... i know it's possible (see the weblink posted above) but it
> seems to be a secret well buried or to complicate for me to find/
> understand
>
> so pardon me if before i read another entire set of manuals and loose
> days i ask a couple of simple questions to the masters:
>
> can this be done with Jquery ?
> Is it hard/complicated/laborious to do ?
> How do you do it step by step ?
> Where do i start ?
>
> thx if you can bother to share your wisdom :)
>
>    

[Michel Belleville]

2009/11/6 Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...>

Hi Chris,

I understand your frustration, it is like asking how to replace a window and being told to become an engineer first.

You don't need to become an engineer before you're changing a window, but if you don't know how to use a screwdriver and where to get a spare window I guess you should start there anyway, it won't take as much time as to get an engineer's degree I assure you. It may very well be frustrating to start with the little wheels on a little country road before you're trying to bike your way through a car crowded city on rush hour, but still my advice is to start with the little wheels and the little country road.
 

I also am a mere consumer of jquery and have been frustrated by finding the right stuff, trying to get it to work and finding out later that the results are not what I was looking for.
Especially the lack of a very basic sample that shows the code working can be a nightmare, you can waste hours.

Consider this : how better is it to "waste" (I'd rather write "spend") a few hours learning the basics then work your way up to the solutions more easily and confidently because you at least know what it's about, rather than "spend" (and here I really mean "waste") the same amount of hours googling over-specific wild goose chases or banging your head on your keyboard repeatedly because what you've found and tried does not in fact do anything close to what you wanted in the first place ?

I know I'd rather "waste" my time doing the tutorials, but it's up to you. And there's no lack of very basic sample, you're just not looking for a very basic sample here, you're looking for a readymade solution. When you're not finding a readymade solution, you can either develop your own (which requires knowing the tools if not the trade) or buy someone's time to work it up for you, or let it go and do something else entirely until someone has had the same problem and developped a solution for you, but it may be some time before that happens.

Off my soapbox onto your issue:
Taconite http://jquery.malsup.com/taconite/ might do what you want to do: reloading/replacing parts of a page without the need to load the whole page, this comes with good examples and documentation.  

One thing you have to be aware off is that the data passed back to the page has to be XML/XHTML, opening the link in a new window in firefox is a good way to check if this is the case, and you should use utf8 , so no &nbsp; but the utf version of it (I hope you don't mind one more Google for that ;-) )

This might be an interesting solution to some problems, though it'll require learning taconite's syntax as well as basic jQuery to get the hooks on the app. So getting started with jQuery will still be a good idea.

 

Michel Belleville

[chris-759]

Michael, your idiotic patronizing attitude simply amazes me ... i hope
you're not representative of the jquery community spirit
obviously i did read the manuals, googled and did many tutorials,
analyzed examples and other peoples code ... and still can't figure it
out ... hence the post, if you don't want to help it's fine, really,
feel free to ignore me and my posts ... but i doubt you really do have
a clue  how to do this (Load and Display Page Contents Asynchronously
with jquer in typo3), which probably could be summed up in half the
words you used so far

Gerrit, thx for your kind and constructive post, will definitely look
into taconite, but at this point what im after would be some advice
from someone who knows typo3 and can give me a more specific pointer
to what i need to learn/do to implement this feature.

I'm not looking for someone doing it for me, i know there will be
learning and work from me involved, but so far i've read too many
manuals/forums and battled myself through a fair number of AJAX
tutorials/examples/libraries, my brain is clogging up ... i need a
birdseye view from a master who's done this before and can summarize
the approach/possibilities for me since there are no specific
tutorials/posts anywhere on the web i could find about Load and
Display Page Contents Asynchronously with typo3 ...

peace ... Chris

[Jonathan Vanherpe (T & T NV)]

chris wrote:

> I'm not looking for someone doing it for me, i know there will be
> learning and work from me involved, but so far i've read too many
> manuals/forums and battled myself through a fair number of AJAX
> tutorials/examples/libraries, my brain is clogging up ... i need a
> birdseye view from a master who's done this before and can summarize
> the approach/possibilities for me since there are no specific
> tutorials/posts anywhere on the web i could find about Load and
> Display Page Contents Asynchronously with typo3 ...
>
> peace ... Chris
>

I personally think that you'll have better luck asking this sort of
stuff in the typo3 mailing list. jQuery is the easy part of what you're
asking: you just use

$('div#content a').click(function(){
        #('div#content').load($(this).href+'?show=justmycontentplease');
        });

(documentation on load() is here: http://docs.jquery.com/Ajax/load )

The thing that's hard about you're asking is telling typo3 to send you
just the chunk you need instead of the whole page, and we can't really
help you with that.

Also: *please* don't implement this, as this breaks the back button,
bookmarks, history and tons of other browser functions.

Jonathan
--
Jonathan Vanherpe - Tallieu & Tallieu NV - jonathan@...

[Gerrit Kuilder-2]

Hi Chris,

one of the problems of getting the  right answer to solve  a problem is
asking the right question.

So your first question should have been: " Is there a jquery plugin that
can replace parts of my page without reloading the hole page that can be
integrated with typo3?"

Well, you got the first part of the answer.

If you ask the same question again on a mailinglist or forum on typo3
you might get a complete answer or somebody might be able to help you
with integrating external scripts in typo3.
If you work a lot with typo3 this might be a skill you want to acquire.

Again, I hope this helps,

Gerrit

On 11/06/2009 01:19 PM, chris wrote:

> Michael, your idiotic patronizing attitude simply amazes me ... i hope
> you're not representative of the jquery community spirit
> obviously i did read the manuals, googled and did many tutorials,
> analyzed examples and other peoples code ... and still can't figure it
> out ... hence the post, if you don't want to help it's fine, really,
> feel free to ignore me and my posts ... but i doubt you really do have
> a clue  how to do this (Load and Display Page Contents Asynchronously
> with jquer in typo3), which probably could be summed up in half the
> words you used so far
>
> Gerrit, thx for your kind and constructive post, will definitely look
> into taconite, but at this point what im after would be some advice
> from someone who knows typo3 and can give me a more specific pointer
> to what i need to learn/do to implement this feature.
>
> I'm not looking for someone doing it for me, i know there will be
> learning and work from me involved, but so far i've read too many
> manuals/forums and battled myself through a fair number of AJAX
> tutorials/examples/libraries, my brain is clogging up ... i need a
> birdseye view from a master who's done this before and can summarize
> the approach/possibilities for me since there are no specific
> tutorials/posts anywhere on the web i could find about Load and
> Display Page Contents Asynchronously with typo3 ...
>
> peace ... Chris
>
>    

[Sam Doyle]

Your a dick! Michael pointed you in the general right direction and
your being ungrateful. I'd guess your never going to be able to work
out how to do it so I'll leave this spam shit with a fuck you and have
a nice day! It'd take 5 minutes to find the correct tutorial so I
doubt you've looked at all. I can imagine your looking for a direct
plugin for this typo thing which probably doesnt exist. Your after
someone doing the work for you, whereas your actually going to have to
do something yourself!

+1 Michael!

On Nov 6, 12:19 pm, chris <c...@...> wrote:

> Michael, your idiotic patronizing attitude simply amazes me ... i hope
> you're not representative of the jquery community spirit
> obviously i did read the manuals, googled and did many tutorials,
> analyzed examples and other peoples code ... and still can't figure it
> out ... hence the post, if you don't want to help it's fine, really,
> feel free to ignore me and my posts ... but i doubt you really do have
> a clue  how to do this (Load and Display Page Contents Asynchronously
> with jquer in typo3), which probably could be summed up in half the
> words you used so far
>
> Gerrit, thx for your kind and constructive post, will definitely look
> into taconite, but at this point what im after would be some advice
> from someone who knows typo3 and can give me a more specific pointer
> to what i need to learn/do to implement this feature.
>
> I'm not looking for someone doing it for me, i know there will be
> learning and work from me involved, but so far i've read too many
> manuals/forums and battled myself through a fair number of AJAX
> tutorials/examples/libraries, my brain is clogging up ... i need a
> birdseye view from a master who's done this before and can summarize
> the approach/possibilities for me since there are no specific
> tutorials/posts anywhere on the web i could find about Load and
> Display Page Contents Asynchronously with typo3 ...
>
> peace ... Chris

[chris-759]

wow, so many nice people in here :)

[Michel Belleville]

Thanks Sam, I was about to reply something on those lines, and it's good to see I'm not just in an alternate dimension where I'm the big bad patronizing answer wolf.
Don't worry though, I know the difference between someone who's been really trying and didn't deserve any patronisement and, well, let's say someone who'd rather you do his job in the first place (and bring coffee too, two sugars for him, you're a sweetheart).

Especially since the guy seems to believe I'm named Michael despite my signature (did I call him Chrisse or something ? - my apologies if I did).

Because, Chris, if you'd really been trying, which I doubt, and even if you've thought my tone was patronizing in the first place, I would assume that after complaining the first time you would have at least tried to visit the links I've given you and noticed that you could just do that :
$('#your_recieving_element').load('http://your.url.com/you-content-document.html #the_part_you_want_to_insert_in_your_receiving_element > *')

And guess what, even though I don't know typo, I've got a pretty good feeling that this will simply do the work for the cases where you simply want to load contents from a content document in a receiving element through an asynchronous call, because that's simply what it does. And that was all the links I've sent you would have taught you, had you even taken the time to put aside the whining and tried to listen to the advices.

The guys that don't need help do it by themselves.
The guys that need help and want help ask for it, and act upon the answers.
The guys that just wants to whine find excuses to whine, and fail (but did they want to succeed in the first place ?).

Michel Belleville

[Gerrit Kuilder-2]

Hi Michel,

In another email I already said that asking the right question will make it easier to get the right question.

So if Chris had asked for the right screwdriver to replace a window the answer might have been different, it would have shown that Chris knew enough about engineering that he needed a screwdriver. He just wanted to be pointed to the right one by the engineers, because sometimes all you need is to replace a window and you don't need to know how to build a whole house. He (and I) just need another window to fit with the interior where he wants (or needs) to spend his precious time on.

I have been using jquery plugins because I need to get a job done, I need to spend my time on that job.

I have been doing a fair bit of programming in various languages and have been using 'plugins' (Pm's, classes, jquery plugins)  to avoid spending/wasting time on some nitty gritty details. I need to spend/waste time on other nitty gritty details and the sooner I get to the required end result the better.

That means I have been using/abusing other people's knowledge and skills, so I have time to acquire knowledge and skills that can be used/abused by other people.

Please don't see this as disrespect for you or your knowledge and skills. 
I actually respect the K and S, using a plugin makes sure that I get the best and right tools and don't use something full of my own errors.
I came to this mailinglist because of a problem I have with a plugin (or 2), and the developer(s) ask on their websites to post questions here.

I also think this gets into something nasty, this was not my intention at all. If I offended you it was unintentionally and in that case I apologize.

Regards,

Gerrit

On 11/06/2009 12:21 PM, Michel Belleville wrote:

2009/11/6 Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...>

Hi Chris,

I understand your frustration, it is like asking how to replace a window and being told to become an engineer first.

You don't need to become an engineer before you're changing a window, but if you don't know how to use a screwdriver and where to get a spare window I guess you should start there anyway, it won't take as much time as to get an engineer's degree I assure you. It may very well be frustrating to start with the little wheels on a little country road before you're trying to bike your way through a car crowded city on rush hour, but still my advice is to start with the little wheels and the little country road.
 

I also am a mere consumer of jquery and have been frustrated by finding the right stuff, trying to get it to work and finding out later that the results are not what I was looking for.
Especially the lack of a very basic sample that shows the code working can be a nightmare, you can waste hours.

Consider this : how better is it to "waste" (I'd rather write "spend") a few hours learning the basics then work your way up to the solutions more easily and confidently because you at least know what it's about, rather than "spend" (and here I really mean "waste") the same amount of hours googling over-specific wild goose chases or banging your head on your keyboard repeatedly because what you've found and tried does not in fact do anything close to what you wanted in the first place ?

I know I'd rather "waste" my time doing the tutorials, but it's up to you. And there's no lack of very basic sample, you're just not looking for a very basic sample here, you're looking for a readymade solution. When you're not finding a readymade solution, you can either develop your own (which requires knowing the tools if not the trade) or buy someone's time to work it up for you, or let it go and do something else entirely until someone has had the same problem and developped a solution for you, but it may be some time before that happens.

Off my soapbox onto your issue:
Taconite http://jquery.malsup.com/taconite/ might do what you want to do: reloading/replacing parts of a page without the need to load the whole page, this comes with good examples and documentation.  

One thing you have to be aware off is that the data passed back to the page has to be XML/XHTML, opening the link in a new window in firefox is a good way to check if this is the case, and you should use utf8 , so no &nbsp; but the utf version of it (I hope you don't mind one more Google for that ;-) )

This might be an interesting solution to some problems, though it'll require learning taconite's syntax as well as basic jQuery to get the hooks on the app. So getting started with jQuery will still be a good idea.

 

Michel Belleville

[Michel Belleville]

Hey Gerrit,

I get what you're saying, and I basically agree with you that you don't need to be an engineer to do a bit of hacking (I merely pointed to documentation that would have taken him two hours top investigating, I hardly call that becoming an engineer even in a field as small as jQuery), and that asking the question right is important. I also agree that someone asking you a question should respect you, if not out of regards to your knowledge and skills, at the very least because you've spend time to actually read and write down an answer to his question, even though you feel patronized by the answer (and who wouldn't feel patronized when he gets and answer that basically says : here's what you should do).

That's not what my answer is about.

I get patronized my fait share in my job, and sometimes I feel bad about it, especially when the patronizer is right, and that's because it almost invariably happens when I didn't do the job in the first place. So in that case, the first thing I do is ask myself "what if I did what the guy tells me ?". Typically I then do that, and usually it just works, and I feel better afterwards. What I try to never do when I feel patronized is insult the person that just made me feel that way, for two reasons. First because sometimes the patronizer is right, and I'll act like a fool or a hypocrite trying to argue the point beyond being proven wrong. Second because whining won't help me anyway.

So Chris, when you ask the question wrong to the wrong people, at least don't get surprised to be patronized, especially since if your real desire is to have all the "nitty gritty" put out of the way by someone else. If you want to be allowed to whine when things don't work, either whine to yourself or pay someone to be whined on (that usually works well in the software industry provided you've got money to spare).

Then again Gerrit, I didn't feel insulted by you, you've been quite decent and tactful and I respect you for that, plus I concur that using a plugin that does just what you need is fine, provided said plugin exists.

I also guess that this has gotten into something nasty, and neither was that my intention (though I'm not afraid to get into nasty territory once in a while when I cross answers displaying the attitude Chris gratified us with earlier ; when asses needs to be kicked don't mind me if I get my boots on), but you're not to blame in any way here.

Michel Belleville

2009/11/6 Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...>

Hi Michel,

In another email I already said that asking the right question will make it easier to get the right question.

So if Chris had asked for the right screwdriver to replace a window the answer might have been different, it would have shown that Chris knew enough about engineering that he needed a screwdriver. He just wanted to be pointed to the right one by the engineers, because sometimes all you need is to replace a window and you don't need to know how to build a whole house. He (and I) just need another window to fit with the interior where he wants (or needs) to spend his precious time on.

I have been using jquery plugins because I need to get a job done, I need to spend my time on that job.

I have been doing a fair bit of programming in various languages and have been using 'plugins' (Pm's, classes, jquery plugins)  to avoid spending/wasting time on some nitty gritty details. I need to spend/waste time on other nitty gritty details and the sooner I get to the required end result the better.

That means I have been using/abusing other people's knowledge and skills, so I have time to acquire knowledge and skills that can be used/abused by other people.

Please don't see this as disrespect for you or your knowledge and skills. 
I actually respect the K and S, using a plugin makes sure that I get the best and right tools and don't use something full of my own errors.
I came to this mailinglist because of a problem I have with a plugin (or 2), and the developer(s) ask on their websites to post questions here.

I also think this gets into something nasty, this was not my intention at all. If I offended you it was unintentionally and in that case I apologize.

Regards,

Gerrit

On 11/06/2009 12:21 PM, Michel Belleville wrote:

2009/11/6 Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...>

Hi Chris,

I understand your frustration, it is like asking how to replace a window and being told to become an engineer first.

You don't need to become an engineer before you're changing a window, but if you don't know how to use a screwdriver and where to get a spare window I guess you should start there anyway, it won't take as much time as to get an engineer's degree I assure you. It may very well be frustrating to start with the little wheels on a little country road before you're trying to bike your way through a car crowded city on rush hour, but still my advice is to start with the little wheels and the little country road.
 

I also am a mere consumer of jquery and have been frustrated by finding the right stuff, trying to get it to work and finding out later that the results are not what I was looking for.
Especially the lack of a very basic sample that shows the code working can be a nightmare, you can waste hours.

Consider this : how better is it to "waste" (I'd rather write "spend") a few hours learning the basics then work your way up to the solutions more easily and confidently because you at least know what it's about, rather than "spend" (and here I really mean "waste") the same amount of hours googling over-specific wild goose chases or banging your head on your keyboard repeatedly because what you've found and tried does not in fact do anything close to what you wanted in the first place ?

I know I'd rather "waste" my time doing the tutorials, but it's up to you. And there's no lack of very basic sample, you're just not looking for a very basic sample here, you're looking for a readymade solution. When you're not finding a readymade solution, you can either develop your own (which requires knowing the tools if not the trade) or buy someone's time to work it up for you, or let it go and do something else entirely until someone has had the same problem and developped a solution for you, but it may be some time before that happens.

Off my soapbox onto your issue:
Taconite http://jquery.malsup.com/taconite/ might do what you want to do: reloading/replacing parts of a page without the need to load the whole page, this comes with good examples and documentation.  

One thing you have to be aware off is that the data passed back to the page has to be XML/XHTML, opening the link in a new window in firefox is a good way to check if this is the case, and you should use utf8 , so no &nbsp; but the utf version of it (I hope you don't mind one more Google for that ;-) )

This might be an interesting solution to some problems, though it'll require learning taconite's syntax as well as basic jQuery to get the hooks on the app. So getting started with jQuery will still be a good idea.

 

Michel Belleville

[Rick Faircloth]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Michel commented:

 

“I get patronized my fait share in my job, and sometimes I feel bad about it”

 

Now we know the root of your attitude problem.

 

The first step in your recovery as an abusive person is to understand that you

are doing the same to others here (thankfully, you haven’t been on the very long

as far as I can tell or you would have helped destroy it) as others do to you at work,

and to understand how that makes you feel:  “I feel bad about it”…

 

I don’t think you enjoy how others at your place of employment make you feel,

so realize that your remarks make others on this list feel exactly as you do when

mistreated by your co-workers.

 

You would do *very* well to start trying to “treat others as you would like to be treated.”

 

Assistance on the list, if it has to be dished up with bad attitude, isn’t welcome.

 

Rick

 

 

From: Michel Belleville [mailto:michel.belleville@...]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:50 AM
To: jquery-en@...
Subject: Re: [jQuery] Re: How to avoid page refresh with jquery in typo3 ?

 

Hey Gerrit,

I get what you're saying, and I basically agree with you that you don't need to be an engineer to do a bit of hacking (I merely pointed to documentation that would have taken him two hours top investigating, I hardly call that becoming an engineer even in a field as small as jQuery), and that asking the question right is important. I also agree that someone asking you a question should respect you, if not out of regards to your knowledge and skills, at the very least because you've spend time to actually read and write down an answer to his question, even though you feel patronized by the answer (and who wouldn't feel patronized when he gets and answer that basically says : here's what you should do).

That's not what my answer is about.

I get patronized my fait share in my job, and sometimes I feel bad about it, especially when the patronizer is right, and that's because it almost invariably happens when I didn't do the job in the first place. So in that case, the first thing I do is ask myself "what if I did what the guy tells me ?". Typically I then do that, and usually it just works, and I feel better afterwards. What I try to never do when I feel patronized is insult the person that just made me feel that way, for two reasons. First because sometimes the patronizer is right, and I'll act like a fool or a hypocrite trying to argue the point beyond being proven wrong. Second because whining won't help me anyway.

So Chris, when you ask the question wrong to the wrong people, at least don't get surprised to be patronized, especially since if your real desire is to have all the "nitty gritty" put out of the way by someone else. If you want to be allowed to whine when things don't work, either whine to yourself or pay someone to be whined on (that usually works well in the software industry provided you've got money to spare).

Then again Gerrit, I didn't feel insulted by you, you've been quite decent and tactful and I respect you for that, plus I concur that using a plugin that does just what you need is fine, provided said plugin exists.

I also guess that this has gotten into something nasty, and neither was that my intention (though I'm not afraid to get into nasty territory once in a while when I cross answers displaying the attitude Chris gratified us with earlier ; when asses needs to be kicked don't mind me if I get my boots on), but you're not to blame in any way here.

Michel Belleville

2009/11/6 Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...>

Hi Michel,

In another email I already said that asking the right question will make it easier to get the right question.

So if Chris had asked for the right screwdriver to replace a window the answer might have been different, it would have shown that Chris knew enough about engineering that he needed a screwdriver. He just wanted to be pointed to the right one by the engineers, because sometimes all you need is to replace a window and you don't need to know how to build a whole house. He (and I) just need another window to fit with the interior where he wants (or needs) to spend his precious time on.

I have been using jquery plugins because I need to get a job done, I need to spend my time on that job.

I have been doing a fair bit of programming in various languages and have been using 'plugins' (Pm's, classes, jquery plugins)  to avoid spending/wasting time on some nitty gritty details. I need to spend/waste time on other nitty gritty details and the sooner I get to the required end result the better.

That means I have been using/abusing other people's knowledge and skills, so I have time to acquire knowledge and skills that can be used/abused by other people.

Please don't see this as disrespect for you or your knowledge and skills. 
I actually respect the K and S, using a plugin makes sure that I get the best and right tools and don't use something full of my own errors.
I came to this mailinglist because of a problem I have with a plugin (or 2), and the developer(s) ask on their websites to post questions here.

I also think this gets into something nasty, this was not my intention at all. If I offended you it was unintentionally and in that case I apologize.

Regards,

Gerrit

On 11/06/2009 12:21 PM, Michel Belleville wrote:

2009/11/6 Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...>

Hi Chris,

I understand your frustration, it is like asking how to replace a window and being told to become an engineer first.

You don't need to become an engineer before you're changing a window, but if you don't know how to use a screwdriver and where to get a spare window I guess you should start there anyway, it won't take as much time as to get an engineer's degree I assure you. It may very well be frustrating to start with the little wheels on a little country road before you're trying to bike your way through a car crowded city on rush hour, but still my advice is to start with the little wheels and the little country road.
 

I also am a mere consumer of jquery and have been frustrated by finding the right stuff, trying to get it to work and finding out later that the results are not what I was looking for.
Especially the lack of a very basic sample that shows the code working can be a nightmare, you can waste hours.

Consider this : how better is it to "waste" (I'd rather write "spend") a few hours learning the basics then work your way up to the solutions more easily and confidently because you at least know what it's about, rather than "spend" (and here I really mean "waste") the same amount of hours googling over-specific wild goose chases or banging your head on your keyboard repeatedly because what you've found and tried does not in fact do anything close to what you wanted in the first place ?

I know I'd rather "waste" my time doing the tutorials, but it's up to you. And there's no lack of very basic sample, you're just not looking for a very basic sample here, you're looking for a readymade solution. When you're not finding a readymade solution, you can either develop your own (which requires knowing the tools if not the trade) or buy someone's time to work it up for you, or let it go and do something else entirely until someone has had the same problem and developped a solution for you, but it may be some time before that happens.

Off my soapbox onto your issue:
Taconite http://jquery.malsup.com/taconite/ might do what you want to do: reloading/replacing parts of a page without the need to load the whole page, this comes with good examples and documentation.  

One thing you have to be aware off is that the data passed back to the page has to be XML/XHTML, opening the link in a new window in firefox is a good way to check if this is the case, and you should use utf8 , so no &nbsp; but the utf version of it (I hope you don't mind one more Google for that ;-) )

This might be an interesting solution to some problems, though it'll require learning taconite's syntax as well as basic jQuery to get the hooks on the app. So getting started with jQuery will still be a good idea.

 

Michel Belleville

 

 

[Gerrit Kuilder-2]

Hi Michel,

I appreciate your reply.
While I was writing my answer (and do some work) I saw the emails flying by but was not catching up with them.

After reading some them I was tempted to reply:

"Chris, mind your manners..."

Have fun,

Gerrit

On 11/06/2009 02:49 PM, Michel Belleville wrote:

Hey Gerrit,

I get what you're saying, and I basically agree with you that you don't need to be an engineer to do a bit of hacking (I merely pointed to documentation that would have taken him two hours top investigating, I hardly call that becoming an engineer even in a field as small as jQuery), and that asking the question right is important. I also agree that someone asking you a question should respect you, if not out of regards to your knowledge and skills, at the very least because you've spend time to actually read and write down an answer to his question, even though you feel patronized by the answer (and who wouldn't feel patronized when he gets and answer that basically says : here's what you should do).

That's not what my answer is about.

I get patronized my fait share in my job, and sometimes I feel bad about it, especially when the patronizer is right, and that's because it almost invariably happens when I didn't do the job in the first place. So in that case, the first thing I do is ask myself "what if I did what the guy tells me ?". Typically I then do that, and usually it just works, and I feel better afterwards. What I try to never do when I feel patronized is insult the person that just made me feel that way, for two reasons. First because sometimes the patronizer is right, and I'll act like a fool or a hypocrite trying to argue the point beyond being proven wrong. Second because whining won't help me anyway.

So Chris, when you ask the question wrong to the wrong people, at least don't get surprised to be patronized, especially since if your real desire is to have all the "nitty gritty" put out of the way by someone else. If you want to be allowed to whine when things don't work, either whine to yourself or pay someone to be whined on (that usually works well in the software industry provided you've got money to spare).

Then again Gerrit, I didn't feel insulted by you, you've been quite decent and tactful and I respect you for that, plus I concur that using a plugin that does just what you need is fine, provided said plugin exists.

I also guess that this has gotten into something nasty, and neither was that my intention (though I'm not afraid to get into nasty territory once in a while when I cross answers displaying the attitude Chris gratified us with earlier ; when asses needs to be kicked don't mind me if I get my boots on), but you're not to blame in any way here.

Michel Belleville

2009/11/6 Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...>

Hi Michel,

In another email I already said that asking the right question will make it easier to get the right question.

So if Chris had asked for the right screwdriver to replace a window the answer might have been different, it would have shown that Chris knew enough about engineering that he needed a screwdriver. He just wanted to be pointed to the right one by the engineers, because sometimes all you need is to replace a window and you don't need to know how to build a whole house. He (and I) just need another window to fit with the interior where he wants (or needs) to spend his precious time on.

I have been using jquery plugins because I need to get a job done, I need to spend my time on that job.

I have been doing a fair bit of programming in various languages and have been using 'plugins' (Pm's, classes, jquery plugins)  to avoid spending/wasting time on some nitty gritty details. I need to spend/waste time on other nitty gritty details and the sooner I get to the required end result the better.

That means I have been using/abusing other people's knowledge and skills, so I have time to acquire knowledge and skills that can be used/abused by other people.

Please don't see this as disrespect for you or your knowledge and skills. 
I actually respect the K and S, using a plugin makes sure that I get the best and right tools and don't use something full of my own errors.
I came to this mailinglist because of a problem I have with a plugin (or 2), and the developer(s) ask on their websites to post questions here.

I also think this gets into something nasty, this was not my intention at all. If I offended you it was unintentionally and in that case I apologize.

Regards,

Gerrit

On 11/06/2009 12:21 PM, Michel Belleville wrote:

2009/11/6 Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...>

Hi Chris,

I understand your frustration, it is like asking how to replace a window and being told to become an engineer first.

You don't need to become an engineer before you're changing a window, but if you don't know how to use a screwdriver and where to get a spare window I guess you should start there anyway, it won't take as much time as to get an engineer's degree I assure you. It may very well be frustrating to start with the little wheels on a little country road before you're trying to bike your way through a car crowded city on rush hour, but still my advice is to start with the little wheels and the little country road.
 

I also am a mere consumer of jquery and have been frustrated by finding the right stuff, trying to get it to work and finding out later that the results are not what I was looking for.
Especially the lack of a very basic sample that shows the code working can be a nightmare, you can waste hours.

Consider this : how better is it to "waste" (I'd rather write "spend") a few hours learning the basics then work your way up to the solutions more easily and confidently because you at least know what it's about, rather than "spend" (and here I really mean "waste") the same amount of hours googling over-specific wild goose chases or banging your head on your keyboard repeatedly because what you've found and tried does not in fact do anything close to what you wanted in the first place ?

I know I'd rather "waste" my time doing the tutorials, but it's up to you. And there's no lack of very basic sample, you're just not looking for a very basic sample here, you're looking for a readymade solution. When you're not finding a readymade solution, you can either develop your own (which requires knowing the tools if not the trade) or buy someone's time to work it up for you, or let it go and do something else entirely until someone has had the same problem and developped a solution for you, but it may be some time before that happens.

Off my soapbox onto your issue:
Taconite http://jquery.malsup.com/taconite/ might do what you want to do: reloading/replacing parts of a page without the need to load the whole page, this comes with good examples and documentation.  

One thing you have to be aware off is that the data passed back to the page has to be XML/XHTML, opening the link in a new window in firefox is a good way to check if this is the case, and you should use utf8 , so no &nbsp; but the utf version of it (I hope you don't mind one more Google for that ;-) )

This might be an interesting solution to some problems, though it'll require learning taconite's syntax as well as basic jQuery to get the hooks on the app. So getting started with jQuery will still be a good idea.

 

Michel Belleville

[Sam Doyle]

Apologies. I believe I also called you michael.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...> wrote:

Hi Michel,

I appreciate your reply.
While I was writing my answer (and do some work) I saw the emails flying by but was not catching up with them.

After reading some them I was tempted to reply:

"Chris, mind your manners..."

Have fun,

Gerrit

On 11/06/2009 02:49 PM, Michel Belleville wrote:

Hey Gerrit,

I get what you're saying, and I basically agree with you that you don't need to be an engineer to do a bit of hacking (I merely pointed to documentation that would have taken him two hours top investigating, I hardly call that becoming an engineer even in a field as small as jQuery), and that asking the question right is important. I also agree that someone asking you a question should respect you, if not out of regards to your knowledge and skills, at the very least because you've spend time to actually read and write down an answer to his question, even though you feel patronized by the answer (and who wouldn't feel patronized when he gets and answer that basically says : here's what you should do).

That's not what my answer is about.

I get patronized my fait share in my job, and sometimes I feel bad about it, especially when the patronizer is right, and that's because it almost invariably happens when I didn't do the job in the first place. So in that case, the first thing I do is ask myself "what if I did what the guy tells me ?". Typically I then do that, and usually it just works, and I feel better afterwards. What I try to never do when I feel patronized is insult the person that just made me feel that way, for two reasons. First because sometimes the patronizer is right, and I'll act like a fool or a hypocrite trying to argue the point beyond being proven wrong. Second because whining won't help me anyway.

So Chris, when you ask the question wrong to the wrong people, at least don't get surprised to be patronized, especially since if your real desire is to have all the "nitty gritty" put out of the way by someone else. If you want to be allowed to whine when things don't work, either whine to yourself or pay someone to be whined on (that usually works well in the software industry provided you've got money to spare).

Then again Gerrit, I didn't feel insulted by you, you've been quite decent and tactful and I respect you for that, plus I concur that using a plugin that does just what you need is fine, provided said plugin exists.

I also guess that this has gotten into something nasty, and neither was that my intention (though I'm not afraid to get into nasty territory once in a while when I cross answers displaying the attitude Chris gratified us with earlier ; when asses needs to be kicked don't mind me if I get my boots on), but you're not to blame in any way here.

Michel Belleville

2009/11/6 Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...>

Hi Michel,

In another email I already said that asking the right question will make it easier to get the right question.

So if Chris had asked for the right screwdriver to replace a window the answer might have been different, it would have shown that Chris knew enough about engineering that he needed a screwdriver. He just wanted to be pointed to the right one by the engineers, because sometimes all you need is to replace a window and you don't need to know how to build a whole house. He (and I) just need another window to fit with the interior where he wants (or needs) to spend his precious time on.

I have been using jquery plugins because I need to get a job done, I need to spend my time on that job.

I have been doing a fair bit of programming in various languages and have been using 'plugins' (Pm's, classes, jquery plugins)  to avoid spending/wasting time on some nitty gritty details. I need to spend/waste time on other nitty gritty details and the sooner I get to the required end result the better.

That means I have been using/abusing other people's knowledge and skills, so I have time to acquire knowledge and skills that can be used/abused by other people.

Please don't see this as disrespect for you or your knowledge and skills. 
I actually respect the K and S, using a plugin makes sure that I get the best and right tools and don't use something full of my own errors.
I came to this mailinglist because of a problem I have with a plugin (or 2), and the developer(s) ask on their websites to post questions here.

I also think this gets into something nasty, this was not my intention at all. If I offended you it was unintentionally and in that case I apologize.

Regards,

Gerrit

On 11/06/2009 12:21 PM, Michel Belleville wrote:

2009/11/6 Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...>

Hi Chris,

I understand your frustration, it is like asking how to replace a window and being told to become an engineer first.

You don't need to become an engineer before you're changing a window, but if you don't know how to use a screwdriver and where to get a spare window I guess you should start there anyway, it won't take as much time as to get an engineer's degree I assure you. It may very well be frustrating to start with the little wheels on a little country road before you're trying to bike your way through a car crowded city on rush hour, but still my advice is to start with the little wheels and the little country road.
 

I also am a mere consumer of jquery and have been frustrated by finding the right stuff, trying to get it to work and finding out later that the results are not what I was looking for.
Especially the lack of a very basic sample that shows the code working can be a nightmare, you can waste hours.

Consider this : how better is it to "waste" (I'd rather write "spend") a few hours learning the basics then work your way up to the solutions more easily and confidently because you at least know what it's about, rather than "spend" (and here I really mean "waste") the same amount of hours googling over-specific wild goose chases or banging your head on your keyboard repeatedly because what you've found and tried does not in fact do anything close to what you wanted in the first place ?

I know I'd rather "waste" my time doing the tutorials, but it's up to you. And there's no lack of very basic sample, you're just not looking for a very basic sample here, you're looking for a readymade solution. When you're not finding a readymade solution, you can either develop your own (which requires knowing the tools if not the trade) or buy someone's time to work it up for you, or let it go and do something else entirely until someone has had the same problem and developped a solution for you, but it may be some time before that happens.

Off my soapbox onto your issue:
Taconite http://jquery.malsup.com/taconite/ might do what you want to do: reloading/replacing parts of a page without the need to load the whole page, this comes with good examples and documentation.  

One thing you have to be aware off is that the data passed back to the page has to be XML/XHTML, opening the link in a new window in firefox is a good way to check if this is the case, and you should use utf8 , so no &nbsp; but the utf version of it (I hope you don't mind one more Google for that ;-) )

This might be an interesting solution to some problems, though it'll require learning taconite's syntax as well as basic jQuery to get the hooks on the app. So getting started with jQuery will still be a good idea.

 

Michel Belleville

[Michel Belleville]

Never mind Sam I had assumed that was not meant from you.

Michel Belleville

2009/11/6 Sam Doyle <sammeh.mp3@...>

Apologies. I believe I also called you michael.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...> wrote:

Hi Michel,

I appreciate your reply.
While I was writing my answer (and do some work) I saw the emails flying by but was not catching up with them.

After reading some them I was tempted to reply:

"Chris, mind your manners..."

Have fun,

Gerrit

On 11/06/2009 02:49 PM, Michel Belleville wrote:

Hey Gerrit,

I get what you're saying, and I basically agree with you that you don't need to be an engineer to do a bit of hacking (I merely pointed to documentation that would have taken him two hours top investigating, I hardly call that becoming an engineer even in a field as small as jQuery), and that asking the question right is important. I also agree that someone asking you a question should respect you, if not out of regards to your knowledge and skills, at the very least because you've spend time to actually read and write down an answer to his question, even though you feel patronized by the answer (and who wouldn't feel patronized when he gets and answer that basically says : here's what you should do).

That's not what my answer is about.

I get patronized my fait share in my job, and sometimes I feel bad about it, especially when the patronizer is right, and that's because it almost invariably happens when I didn't do the job in the first place. So in that case, the first thing I do is ask myself "what if I did what the guy tells me ?". Typically I then do that, and usually it just works, and I feel better afterwards. What I try to never do when I feel patronized is insult the person that just made me feel that way, for two reasons. First because sometimes the patronizer is right, and I'll act like a fool or a hypocrite trying to argue the point beyond being proven wrong. Second because whining won't help me anyway.

So Chris, when you ask the question wrong to the wrong people, at least don't get surprised to be patronized, especially since if your real desire is to have all the "nitty gritty" put out of the way by someone else. If you want to be allowed to whine when things don't work, either whine to yourself or pay someone to be whined on (that usually works well in the software industry provided you've got money to spare).

Then again Gerrit, I didn't feel insulted by you, you've been quite decent and tactful and I respect you for that, plus I concur that using a plugin that does just what you need is fine, provided said plugin exists.

I also guess that this has gotten into something nasty, and neither was that my intention (though I'm not afraid to get into nasty territory once in a while when I cross answers displaying the attitude Chris gratified us with earlier ; when asses needs to be kicked don't mind me if I get my boots on), but you're not to blame in any way here.

Michel Belleville

2009/11/6 Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...>

Hi Michel,

In another email I already said that asking the right question will make it easier to get the right question.

So if Chris had asked for the right screwdriver to replace a window the answer might have been different, it would have shown that Chris knew enough about engineering that he needed a screwdriver. He just wanted to be pointed to the right one by the engineers, because sometimes all you need is to replace a window and you don't need to know how to build a whole house. He (and I) just need another window to fit with the interior where he wants (or needs) to spend his precious time on.

I have been using jquery plugins because I need to get a job done, I need to spend my time on that job.

I have been doing a fair bit of programming in various languages and have been using 'plugins' (Pm's, classes, jquery plugins)  to avoid spending/wasting time on some nitty gritty details. I need to spend/waste time on other nitty gritty details and the sooner I get to the required end result the better.

That means I have been using/abusing other people's knowledge and skills, so I have time to acquire knowledge and skills that can be used/abused by other people.

Please don't see this as disrespect for you or your knowledge and skills. 
I actually respect the K and S, using a plugin makes sure that I get the best and right tools and don't use something full of my own errors.
I came to this mailinglist because of a problem I have with a plugin (or 2), and the developer(s) ask on their websites to post questions here.

I also think this gets into something nasty, this was not my intention at all. If I offended you it was unintentionally and in that case I apologize.

Regards,

Gerrit

On 11/06/2009 12:21 PM, Michel Belleville wrote:

2009/11/6 Gerrit Kuilder <gerrit.undefined@...>

Hi Chris,

I understand your frustration, it is like asking how to replace a window and being told to become an engineer first.

You don't need to become an engineer before you're changing a window, but if you don't know how to use a screwdriver and where to get a spare window I guess you should start there anyway, it won't take as much time as to get an engineer's degree I assure you. It may very well be frustrating to start with the little wheels on a little country road before you're trying to bike your way through a car crowded city on rush hour, but still my advice is to start with the little wheels and the little country road.
 

I also am a mere consumer of jquery and have been frustrated by finding the right stuff, trying to get it to work and finding out later that the results are not what I was looking for.
Especially the lack of a very basic sample that shows the code working can be a nightmare, you can waste hours.

Consider this : how better is it to "waste" (I'd rather write "spend") a few hours learning the basics then work your way up to the solutions more easily and confidently because you at least know what it's about, rather than "spend" (and here I really mean "waste") the same amount of hours googling over-specific wild goose chases or banging your head on your keyboard repeatedly because what you've found and tried does not in fact do anything close to what you wanted in the first place ?

I know I'd rather "waste" my time doing the tutorials, but it's up to you. And there's no lack of very basic sample, you're just not looking for a very basic sample here, you're looking for a readymade solution. When you're not finding a readymade solution, you can either develop your own (which requires knowing the tools if not the trade) or buy someone's time to work it up for you, or let it go and do something else entirely until someone has had the same problem and developped a solution for you, but it may be some time before that happens.

Off my soapbox onto your issue:
Taconite http://jquery.malsup.com/taconite/ might do what you want to do: reloading/replacing parts of a page without the need to load the whole page, this comes with good examples and documentation.  

One thing you have to be aware off is that the data passed back to the page has to be XML/XHTML, opening the link in a new window in firefox is a good way to check if this is the case, and you should use utf8 , so no &nbsp; but the utf version of it (I hope you don't mind one more Google for that ;-) )

This might be an interesting solution to some problems, though it'll require learning taconite's syntax as well as basic jQuery to get the hooks on the app. So getting started with jQuery will still be a good idea.

 

Michel Belleville

[chris-759]

i was tempted not to say anything anymore but Rick's comment
encouraged me to make one last attempt at keeping this civilized and
to the point.

i have a rather simple question and all i'm looking for is a simple
answer, you don't have an answer ... don't reply, spare me your
venting/lecturing/philosophy .. Michel, just let it go !

FIY, when i post a question in a forum, right after i post it i
continue to work, document myself and trying out stuff working through
examples/tutorials/manuals etc ... i don't sit there waiting until
someone posts me the solution while drinking coffee, i continue to
wade through thousands of potentially irrelevant posts/documents and
learn about technologies i'm probably not going to need

what i don't need however is any of the completely irrelevant
blabbering full of assumptions and hate above .. i asked a pretty
simple question and repeated it politely when i was getting a lecture
instead of any usefull info (i had found the links to the manual and
the google website on my own  while ago, but thx for that anyway)

so once again since i think my initial question might have been too
vague:

i am looking for a way to INTEGRATE Typo3 with the jquery asynchronous
load functions. The problem i have is that i do not know how to 'get
to the clicks' from typo3.
I don't have a problem loading content from a typo3 page into a DIV
via jquery, but i don't know how to make the typo3 menu 'talk' to the
url variable in jquery.

The following works with a 'static' link (but then again i had that
working with other ajaxLibs but couldn't make the 'connection' to
typo3 :

<script>  function loadAJAX() {
  $(document).ready(function(){
$("#ilink").load("http://mytypo3site.com/index.php?
id=20 .contentClass");  });
  }  </script>
</head>
<body> <div id="ilink" onclick="loadAJAX();">xxx</div> </body>
</html>

can i 'intercept' the current click in javascript or php somehow ? do
i have to code something into the setup/constant of my main typo3 page
template ? do i need to develop a custom extension ? do i need to use
the xajax/mootools/prototype extensions or can i get around this via
jquery ?

these are the questions i'm asking myself ...