How to create nested lists in Amaya?

[Corne Beerse]

At the moment I need to create a list in a list. In source, I like this:

<ul>
<li>here comes a sublist</li>
<ul>
<li>This is a sublisted item</li>
<li>Next sublist</li>
</ul>
<li>next item on major list</li>
</ul>

I recall by head that I could do this in Amaya by selecting the list
function once more. However, in the current version, that does not work
as expected...

With microsofts frontpage, I can use the 'increment indent' option to do
so. This results in the requested sublist. If I use th is 'increment
indent' with amaya, the <li> gets an option, which can be reasonable.

However, I do need this sublist, mainly because it is a sublist. Amayas
'incremnet indent' is not an alternative as it dos not change the
big-dot to an open dot.

Who knows how I can get the sublist in amaya?

Corné

[Helder Magalhães]

Hi Corné,

> At the moment I need to create a list in a list. In source, I like this:
>
> <ul>
> <li>here comes a sublist</li>
> <ul>
> <li>This is a sublisted item</li>
> <li>Next sublist</li>
> </ul>
> <li>next item on major list</li>
> </ul>

I guess you meant:

<ul>
  <li>here comes a sublist
    <ul>
      <li>This is a sublisted item</li>
      <li>Next sublist</li>
    </ul>
  </li>
  <li>next item on major list</li>
</ul>

(Note that, in order to create a sub-list, it should be placed within
the desired list element to be considered a child of that element.)


> I recall by head that I could do this in Amaya by selecting the list
> function once more. However, in the current version, that does not work as
> expected...

Yes, I've just checked with version 11.2 and the behavior is somehow
buggy. I'm attaching a screen shot which both shows it's possible to
insert a sub-list and also showing a couple of issues (one is not
visible, it's behavioral).


A. Inserting a sub-list:
1. Create the list's parent element ("2" in the example), leaving the
cursor after the text;
2. Go to "Insert" menu, option "List" and select the desired list type.


B. Returning to the parent element after creating a sub-list (in the
example, "3" after creating "2.2"):
1. Press "Enter" key three times
1.1. first creates a sibling element (which would be "2.3");
1.2. second (unexpectedly) drops the list;
1.3. third one to gets the cursor into the parent level ("3").

In my opinion, the second "Enter" feels like broken behavior, although
it makes sense: Amaya places a paragraph ("<p></p>") and other kind of
content would be allowed (within the current list item's indenting
level). Nevertheless, I'd vote for Amaya supporting the usual "Tab"
and "Shift+Tab" key sequences, when the cursor is placed after the
bullet but before content, to control indenting level: this is the
interaction paradigm used in most WYSIWYG editors (Microsoft Word and
PowerPoint, for example). :-)


C. Triggering a rendering+interaction bug:
1. Before adding any content to a given list item, go to "Insert"
menu, option "List" and select a list type.

This is a somehow rare use-case, although I'd say this is
unexpected/buggy. But, as other browsers were also suffering from this
in the past (and Firefox still does [1]!), probably this can be
considered low priority. Note that, as Amaya doesn't seem to support
HTTPS (doesn't?! I just got very surprised...) -- I got a "Sorry, no
GET support yet for URLs of this type: https://[...]" error -- I
didn't checked how does Amaya perform with those (Firefox issue's)
test cases.

The problem to me, in this case, is the interaction issue: if one
creates a child list without any parent content ("OOPS!"), then it's
not possible to place the cursor in the parent content (in the
example, the next sibling of "3") without deleting it (place the
cursor before "OOPS!" and press backspace). This may be a source of
confusion to users not used to source view... :-|


> Who knows how I can get the sublist in amaya?

Hope this helps,
 Helder


[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=179596

[Vatton]

Le vendredi 21 août 2009 à 14:09 +0100, Helder Magalhães a écrit :

> Hi Corné,
>
>
> > At the moment I need to create a list in a list. In source, I like this:
> >
> > <ul>
> > <li>here comes a sublist</li>
> > <ul>
> > <li>This is a sublisted item</li>
> > <li>Next sublist</li>
> > </ul>
> > <li>next item on major list</li>
> > </ul>
>
> I guess you meant:
>
> <ul>
>   <li>here comes a sublist
>     <ul>
>       <li>This is a sublisted item</li>
>       <li>Next sublist</li>
>     </ul>
>   </li>
>   <li>next item on major list</li>
> </ul>
>
> (Note that, in order to create a sub-list, it should be placed within
> the desired list element to be considered a child of that element.)

That's true.

>
> > I recall by head that I could do this in Amaya by selecting the list
> > function once more. However, in the current version, that does not work as
> > expected...
>
> Yes, I've just checked with version 11.2 and the behavior is somehow
> buggy. I'm attaching a screen shot which both shows it's possible to
> insert a sub-list and also showing a couple of issues (one is not
> visible, it's behavioral).

I suspect you expected to create a sub-list within the the "3" list
item?
In the snapshot, the sub-list (OOPS) is inserted into a empty list item.
That is a valid HTML structure but I agree it is probably not desirable.

> A. Inserting a sub-list:
> 1. Create the list's parent element ("2" in the example), leaving the
> cursor after the text;
> 2. Go to "Insert" menu, option "List" and select the desired list type.
>
>
> B. Returning to the parent element after creating a sub-list (in the
> example, "3" after creating "2.2"):
> 1. Press "Enter" key three times
> 1.1. first creates a sibling element (which would be "2.3");
> 1.2. second (unexpectedly) drops the list;
> 1.3. third one to gets the cursor into the parent level ("3").
>
> In my opinion, the second "Enter" feels like broken behavior, although
> it makes sense: Amaya places a paragraph ("<p></p>") and other kind of
> content would be allowed (within the current list item's indenting
> level). Nevertheless, I'd vote for Amaya supporting the usual "Tab"
> and "Shift+Tab" key sequences, when the cursor is placed after the
> bullet but before content, to control indenting level: this is the
> interaction paradigm used in most WYSIWYG editors (Microsoft Word and
> PowerPoint, for example). :-)

Today "Tab" and "Shift+Tab" key sequences are used to skip to the next
or previous link. We'll check if it's possible to implement this kind of
control within a list.

>
> C. Triggering a rendering+interaction bug:
> 1. Before adding any content to a given list item, go to "Insert"
> menu, option "List" and select a list type.
>
> This is a somehow rare use-case, although I'd say this is
> unexpected/buggy. But, as other browsers were also suffering from this
> in the past (and Firefox still does [1]!), probably this can be
> considered low priority. Note that, as Amaya doesn't seem to support
> HTTPS (doesn't?! I just got very surprised...) -- I got a "Sorry, no
> GET support yet for URLs of this type: https://[...]" error -- I
> didn't checked how does Amaya perform with those (Firefox issue's)
> test cases.

The HTTPS support should be available in next release.

>
> The problem to me, in this case, is the interaction issue: if one
> creates a child list without any parent content ("OOPS!"), then it's
> not possible to place the cursor in the parent content (in the
> example, the next sibling of "3") without deleting it (place the
> cursor before "OOPS!" and press backspace). This may be a source of
> confusion to users not used to source view... :-|
>
>
> > Who knows how I can get the sublist in amaya?
>
> Hope this helps,
>  Helder
>
>
> [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=179596

--
Irene Vatton <Irene.Vatton@...>
INRIA

[Corne Beerse]

Irene Vatton wrote:

> Le vendredi 21 août 2009 à 14:09 +0100, Helder Magalhães a écrit :
>  
>> Hi Corné,
>>
>>
>>    
>>> At the moment I need to create a list in a list. In source, I like this:
>>>
>>> <ul>
>>> <li>here comes a sublist</li>
>>> <ul>
>>> <li>This is a sublisted item</li>
>>> <li>Next sublist</li>
>>> </ul>
>>> <li>next item on major list</li>
>>> </ul>
>>>      
>> I guess you meant:
>>
>> <ul>
>>   <li>here comes a sublist
>>     <ul>
>>       <li>This is a sublisted item</li>
>>       <li>Next sublist</li>
>>     </ul>
>>   </li>
>>   <li>next item on major list</li>
>> </ul>
>>
>> (Note that, in order to create a sub-list, it should be placed within
>> the desired list element to be considered a child of that element.)
>>    
>
> That's true.
>  

Sounds reasonable, I normally let Amaya (or frontpage) guide me on this.

>>> I recall by head that I could do this in Amaya by selecting the list
>>> function once more. However, in the current version, that does not work as
>>> expected...
>>>      
>> Yes, I've just checked with version 11.2 and the behavior is somehow
>> buggy. I'm attaching a screen shot which both shows it's possible to
>> insert a sub-list and also showing a couple of issues (one is not
>> visible, it's behavioral).
>>    
>
> I suspect you expected to create a sub-list within the the "3" list
> item?
> In the snapshot, the sub-list (OOPS) is inserted into a empty list item.
> That is a valid HTML structure but I agree it is probably not desirable.
>
>  
>> A. Inserting a sub-list:
>> 1. Create the list's parent element ("2" in the example), leaving the
>> cursor after the text;
>> 2. Go to "Insert" menu, option "List" and select the desired list type.
>>
>>
>> B. Returning to the parent element after creating a sub-list (in the
>> example, "3" after creating "2.2"):
>> 1. Press "Enter" key three times
>> 1.1. first creates a sibling element (which would be "2.3");
>> 1.2. second (unexpectedly) drops the list;
>>    

This is not unexpected to me, it happens with roughly all list kind
elements: insert an other item (<p> by default) at the insert level of
the list item. I use it once in a while.

>> 1.3. third one to gets the cursor into the parent level ("3").
>>
>> In my opinion, the second "Enter" feels like broken behavior, although
>> it makes sense: Amaya places a paragraph ("<p></p>") and other kind of
>> content would be allowed (within the current list item's indenting
>> level). Nevertheless, I'd vote for Amaya supporting the usual "Tab"
>> and "Shift+Tab" key sequences, when the cursor is placed after the
>> bullet but before content, to control indenting level: this is the
>> interaction paradigm used in most WYSIWYG editors (Microsoft Word and
>> PowerPoint, for example). :-)
>>    
>
> Today "Tab" and "Shift+Tab" key sequences are used to skip to the next
> or previous link. We'll check if it's possible to implement this kind of
> control within a list.
>
>  

At the moment the tab-key did not insert as I expected (as I'm used to
in frontpage), I used the (dutch amaya) Opmaak -> Inspring -> Inspring
Vergroten which changed <li> in <li style="Margin-left:2em;">. In the
list elements I would expect it to switch to sublists of the same type.

>> C. Triggering a rendering+interaction bug:
>> 1. Before adding any content to a given list item, go to "Insert"
>> menu, option "List" and select a list type.
>>
>> This is a somehow rare use-case, although I'd say this is
>> unexpected/buggy. But, as other browsers were also suffering from this
>> in the past (and Firefox still does [1]!), probably this can be
>> considered low priority. Note that, as Amaya doesn't seem to support
>> HTTPS (doesn't?! I just got very surprised...) -- I got a "Sorry, no
>> GET support yet for URLs of this type: https://[...]" error -- I
>> didn't checked how does Amaya perform with those (Firefox issue's)
>> test cases.
>>    
>
> The HTTPS support should be available in next release.
>
>  
>> The problem to me, in this case, is the interaction issue: if one
>> creates a child list without any parent content ("OOPS!"), then it's
>> not possible to place the cursor in the parent content (in the
>> example, the next sibling of "3") without deleting it (place the
>> cursor before "OOPS!" and press backspace). This may be a source of
>> confusion to users not used to source view... :-|
>>
>>
>>    
>>> Who knows how I can get the sublist in amaya?
>>>      
>> Hope this helps,
>>  Helder
>>
>>    

Thanks for the info, specially on the location of the text cursor.


Corné

[Vatton]

Le mercredi 26 août 2009 à 11:03 +0200, Corne Beerse a écrit :

> Irene Vatton wrote:
> > Le vendredi 21 août 2009 à 14:09 +0100, Helder Magalhães a écrit :
> >  
> >> Hi Corné,
> >>
> >>
> >>    
> >>> At the moment I need to create a list in a list. In source, I like this:
> >>>
> >>> <ul>
> >>> <li>here comes a sublist</li>
> >>> <ul>
> >>> <li>This is a sublisted item</li>
> >>> <li>Next sublist</li>
> >>> </ul>
> >>> <li>next item on major list</li>
> >>> </ul>
> >>>      
> >> I guess you meant:
> >>
> >> <ul>
> >>   <li>here comes a sublist
> >>     <ul>
> >>       <li>This is a sublisted item</li>
> >>       <li>Next sublist</li>
> >>     </ul>
> >>   </li>
> >>   <li>next item on major list</li>
> >> </ul>
> >>
> >> (Note that, in order to create a sub-list, it should be placed within
> >> the desired list element to be considered a child of that element.)
> >>    
> >
> > That's true.
> >  
> Sounds reasonable, I normally let Amaya (or frontpage) guide me on this.
> >>> I recall by head that I could do this in Amaya by selecting the list
> >>> function once more. However, in the current version, that does not work as
> >>> expected...
> >>>      
> >> Yes, I've just checked with version 11.2 and the behavior is somehow
> >> buggy. I'm attaching a screen shot which both shows it's possible to
> >> insert a sub-list and also showing a couple of issues (one is not
> >> visible, it's behavioral).
> >>    
> > I suspect you expected to create a sub-list within the the "3" list
> > item?
> > In the snapshot, the sub-list (OOPS) is inserted into a empty list item.
> > That is a valid HTML structure but I agree it is probably not desirable.

In next release Amaya won't generate a sub-list inside an empty list
item. It will replace the empty list item by a sub-list at the end of
the previous list item.

> >> A. Inserting a sub-list:
> >> 1. Create the list's parent element ("2" in the example), leaving the
> >> cursor after the text;
> >> 2. Go to "Insert" menu, option "List" and select the desired list type.
> >>
> >>
> >> B. Returning to the parent element after creating a sub-list (in the
> >> example, "3" after creating "2.2"):
> >> 1. Press "Enter" key three times
> >> 1.1. first creates a sibling element (which would be "2.3");
> >> 1.2. second (unexpectedly) drops the list;
> >>    
> This is not unexpected to me, it happens with roughly all list kind
> elements: insert an other item (<p> by default) at the insert level of
> the list item. I use it once in a while.

The behaviour depends on the editing mode (Text or XML). See the button
at the right bottom to switch the current mode.

> >> 1.3. third one to gets the cursor into the parent level ("3").
> >>
> >> In my opinion, the second "Enter" feels like broken behavior, although
> >> it makes sense: Amaya places a paragraph ("<p></p>") and other kind of
> >> content would be allowed (within the current list item's indenting
> >> level). Nevertheless, I'd vote for Amaya supporting the usual "Tab"
> >> and "Shift+Tab" key sequences, when the cursor is placed after the
> >> bullet but before content, to control indenting level: this is the
> >> interaction paradigm used in most WYSIWYG editors (Microsoft Word and
> >> PowerPoint, for example). :-)
> >>    
> >
> > Today "Tab" and "Shift+Tab" key sequences are used to skip to the next
> > or previous link. We'll check if it's possible to implement this kind of
> > control within a list.

In next release "Tab" and "Shift+Tab" key sequences will control the
indenting level of list items.
 

> At the moment the tab-key did not insert as I expected (as I'm used to
> in frontpage), I used the (dutch amaya) Opmaak -> Inspring -> Inspring
> Vergroten which changed <li> in <li style="Margin-left:2em;">. In the
> list elements I would expect it to switch to sublists of the same type.
> >> C. Triggering a rendering+interaction bug:
> >> 1. Before adding any content to a given list item, go to "Insert"
> >> menu, option "List" and select a list type.
> >>
> >> This is a somehow rare use-case, although I'd say this is
> >> unexpected/buggy. But, as other browsers were also suffering from this
> >> in the past (and Firefox still does [1]!), probably this can be
> >> considered low priority. Note that, as Amaya doesn't seem to support
> >> HTTPS (doesn't?! I just got very surprised...) -- I got a "Sorry, no
> >> GET support yet for URLs of this type: https://[...]" error -- I
> >> didn't checked how does Amaya perform with those (Firefox issue's)
> >> test cases.
> >>    
> >
> > The HTTPS support should be available in next release.
> >
> >  
> >> The problem to me, in this case, is the interaction issue: if one
> >> creates a child list without any parent content ("OOPS!"), then it's
> >> not possible to place the cursor in the parent content (in the
> >> example, the next sibling of "3") without deleting it (place the
> >> cursor before "OOPS!" and press backspace). This may be a source of
> >> confusion to users not used to source view... :-|
> >>
> >>
> >>    
> >>> Who knows how I can get the sublist in amaya?
> >>>      
> >> Hope this helps,
> >>  Helder
> >>
> >>    
> Thanks for the info, specially on the location of the text cursor.
>
>
> Corné

--
Irene Vatton <Irene.Vatton@...>
INRIA