How to recognize homebrew discids
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How to recognize homebrew discids
by trolley
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Is there an easy way to recognize homebrew discids? I ask because the other day a discid was added to this release: http://musicbrainz.org/show/release/details.html?releaseid=82937&show=both#discid
The new one is l1hsdXN3rduLnewuCijiGnXDtCY- and the first thing I noticed is the length is significantly different than the other discids on the same release. I'm guessing it's a homebrew disc with an extra 2 second gap between each track. Does this seem right? _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Bram van Dijk
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Problem is: you can never be 100% sure. I think there was an example on
the list a few moths ago of an official release with an extra 2 second per track. A homebrew would give songs that are 2 second longer, except for the last one, as is with this discID. I'm pretty certain that it is a homebrew. Bram Mark Trolley schreef: > Is there an easy way to recognize homebrew discids? I ask because the > other day a discid was added to this release: > http://musicbrainz.org/show/release/details.html?releaseid=82937&show=both#discid > <http://musicbrainz.org/show/release/details.html?releaseid=82937&show=both#discid> > > The new one is l1hsdXN3rduLnewuCijiGnXDtCY- and the first thing I > noticed is the length is significantly different than the other > discids on the same release. I'm guessing it's a homebrew disc with an > extra 2 second gap between each track. Does this seem right? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-users mailing list > MusicBrainz-users@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Atedos-2
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Can we just don't start it?
I'd keep DB clean, rather than keep all those homebrew DiscID's. It is in the hands of submitter, to put a note to DiscID addition, if it is legal for example and looks like homebrew. It also causes confusion, if that CD-r was burned from badly ripped mp3s or something, making different times on same tracks. It also can make bogus CD release for Digital Media only, if burnt, and so on. I personally prefer remove such ID's, with later re-submitting if needed (with notes added). If the first submitter cares, he will notice such edit pending. If he doesn't - why should we rely on it? 2009/3/30 Philipp Wolfer <ph.wolfer@...>
_______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Frederic Da Vitoria
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Your suggestion does not seem very reasonable to me. How can you expect someone who doesn't really care about technical details, who even does not know what is a homebrew, to recognize that the perfectly legal and brand new release he is submitting may look strange to some users? IMO if you want to enforce such a position, then you should request that Picard should be modified in order to recognize a homebrew and warn the submitter that there might be an issue.
2009/3/30 Atedos <atedos@...> Can we just don't start it? -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Atedos-2
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If it gets removed?
The submitter can't make difference between CD-r and album disc? If it gets removed, just a word (proof is better though) it was legal is in most cases enough. That's why we are here, aren't we? Help each other, check edits and correct if needed. Not just submit and forget. 2009/3/30 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...> Your suggestion does not seem very reasonable to me. How can you expect someone who doesn't really care about technical details, who even does not know what is a homebrew, to recognize that the perfectly legal and brand new release he is submitting may look strange to some users? IMO if you want to enforce such a position, then you should request that Picard should be modified in order to recognize a homebrew and warn the submitter that there might be an issue. _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by trolley
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Why not try to make it part of the discid submission process. If the
user is trying to associate a discid with a release that already has one (or more) check if the length of the disc differs by more than ±5s or something. If it does make the user confirm that they are adding a discid from an official disc. It's not perfect, but at least it would stop some people from submitting their burned CDs. 2009/3/30 Atedos <atedos@...>: > If it gets removed? > The submitter can't make difference between CD-r and album disc? If it gets > removed, just a word (proof is better though) it was legal is in most cases > enough. > That's why we are here, aren't we? Help each other, check edits and correct > if needed. > Not just submit and forget. > > 2009/3/30 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...> >> >> Your suggestion does not seem very reasonable to me. How can you expect >> someone who doesn't really care about technical details, who even does not >> know what is a homebrew, to recognize that the perfectly legal and brand new >> release he is submitting may look strange to some users? IMO if you want to >> enforce such a position, then you should request that Picard should be >> modified in order to recognize a homebrew and warn the submitter that there >> might be an issue. >> >> 2009/3/30 Atedos <atedos@...> >>> >>> Can we just don't start it? >>> I'd keep DB clean, rather than keep all those homebrew DiscID's. >>> It is in the hands of submitter, to put a note to DiscID addition, if it >>> is legal for example and looks like homebrew. >>> It also causes confusion, if that CD-r was burned from badly ripped mp3s >>> or something, making different times on same tracks. >>> It also can make bogus CD release for Digital Media only, if burnt, and >>> so on. >>> I personally prefer remove such ID's, with later re-submitting if needed >>> (with notes added). If the first submitter cares, he will notice such edit >>> pending. If he doesn't - why should we rely on it? >>> >>> 2009/3/30 Philipp Wolfer <ph.wolfer@...> >>>> >>>> And while ripping a bunch of older CDs I noticed two more which suddenly >>>> had missing disc IDs even though I'm pretty sure the disc IDs had been on MB >>>> once. I really don't see the point in removing disc IDs unless they were >>>> clearly attached to the wrong release or have track lengths that are far off >>>> from the real lengths. >>>> >>>> Can we please stop this nonsense!? >> >> -- >> Frederic Da Vitoria >> (davitof) >> >> Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - >> http://www.april.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> MusicBrainz-users mailing list >> MusicBrainz-users@... >> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users > > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-users mailing list > MusicBrainz-users@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users > _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Atedos-2
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I don't think this process should be automated. There are some releases, where time difference in CD TOCs is pretty significant (i.e. 6sec or more), but they are still attached to one release because it is country pressing issue or even something else.
Perhaps making DiscID submitting non-auto edit would make temporary solution. And perhaps, relating DiscID with release events would help a lot. 2009/3/30 Mark Trolley <marktrolley@...> Why not try to make it part of the discid submission process. If the _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Gecks
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i agree. i've been abstaining on these edits for years now. i think
what we need, at the least, is: http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Removal-of-homeburnt-discIds-p21135007s2885.html now raised as a ticket: http://bugs.musicbrainz.org/ticket/4887 2009/3/29 Philipp Wolfer <ph.wolfer@...>: > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Bram van Dijk <bram_van_dijk@...> > wrote: >> >> Problem is: you can never be 100% sure. I think there was an example on >> the list a few moths ago of an official release with an extra 2 second >> per track. >> A homebrew would give songs that are 2 second longer, except for the >> last one, as is with this discID. I'm pretty certain that it is a >> homebrew. > > And again I found a valid disc ID that was removed as being a homeburn: > http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=7807617 > I've added the disc ID again. > > And while ripping a bunch of older CDs I noticed two more which suddenly had > missing disc IDs even though I'm pretty sure the disc IDs had been on MB > once. I really don't see the point in removing disc IDs unless they were > clearly attached to the wrong release or have track lengths that are far off > from the real lengths. > > Can we please stop this nonsense!? > > -- > Philipp Wolfer > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-users mailing list > MusicBrainz-users@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users > _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Frederic Da Vitoria
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I wrote: "perfectly legal and brand new release". I meant something he bought at a CD shop and unwrapped minutes before, an original, not a homebrew. So no, he can't make any difference, because there is no visible difference. It only happens to have track durations which suggest that it is a homeburn. Maybe the manufacturer started from a homebrew, who knows? This is the problem Philipp speaks about. And his example is a perfect illustration of his meaning, So how would an unsespecting Philipp Wolfer know that he should enter a comment or else his discId should not be deleted?
2009/3/30 Atedos <atedos@...> If it gets removed? -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Atedos-2
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DiscID won't be deleted, unless there is reason enough.
For example homebrew ID attached before. And comment would be needed only after deletion, not before first submitting. 2009/3/30 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...> I wrote: "perfectly legal and brand new release". I meant something he bought at a CD shop and unwrapped minutes before, an original, not a homebrew. So no, he can't make any difference, because there is no visible difference. It only happens to have track durations which suggest that it is a homeburn. Maybe the manufacturer started from a homebrew, who knows? This is the problem Philipp speaks about. And his example is a perfect illustration of his meaning, So how would an unsespecting Philipp Wolfer know that he should enter a comment or else his discId should not be deleted? _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Bugzilla from lalinsky@gmail.com
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2009/3/30 Atedos <atedos@...>:
> DiscID won't be deleted, unless there is reason enough. Exactly, and +2 seconds on every track is not such a reason. Lukas _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Atedos-2
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Did I wrote the "investigation" word?
Not just +2 seconds, we are not robots here. A simple example: brand new release, only 1 pressing at this time, but on second day it has two DiscIDs attached, with +2sec pregaps one. You know what to do, don't you? =\\ 2009/3/30 Lukáš Lalinský <lalinsky@...> 2009/3/30 Atedos <atedos@...>: _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Mark Woodson
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2009/3/30 Atedos <atedos@...>:
> 2009/3/30 Lukáš Lalinský <lalinsky@...> >> 2009/3/30 Atedos <atedos@...>: >> > DiscID won't be deleted, unless there is reason enough. >> >> Exactly, and +2 seconds on every track is not such a reason. >> > Did I wrote the "investigation" word? > Not just +2 seconds, we are not robots here. > A simple example: brand new release, only 1 pressing at this time, but on > second day it has two DiscIDs attached, with +2sec pregaps one. You know > what to do, don't you? =\\ In the push to purge homebrew DiscIDs valid ones are being lost. I've found releases that I know I attached a valid/legal/non-homebew DiscIDs some time ago, suddenly without them. I would think erring more on the side of caution a better thing. A similar level of proof should be required (or expected) for the deletion of data from the database as is required (or expected) for it's addition. -Mark / InSinU8 _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by gnu_andrew
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2009/3/30 Mark Woodson <mark.woodson@...>:
> 2009/3/30 Atedos <atedos@...>: >> 2009/3/30 Lukáš Lalinský <lalinsky@...> >>> 2009/3/30 Atedos <atedos@...>: >>> > DiscID won't be deleted, unless there is reason enough. >>> >>> Exactly, and +2 seconds on every track is not such a reason. >>> >> Did I wrote the "investigation" word? >> Not just +2 seconds, we are not robots here. >> A simple example: brand new release, only 1 pressing at this time, but on >> second day it has two DiscIDs attached, with +2sec pregaps one. You know >> what to do, don't you? =\\ > > In the push to purge homebrew DiscIDs valid ones are being lost. I've > found releases that I know I attached a valid/legal/non-homebew > DiscIDs some time ago, suddenly without them. I would think erring > more on the side of caution a better thing. A similar level of proof > should be required (or expected) for the deletion of data from the > database as is required (or expected) for it's addition. > > -Mark / InSinU8 > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-users mailing list > MusicBrainz-users@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users > The flaw I see in this discussion is that there is no way to reliably assert that a CD is a 'homebrew' CD, other than asking the CD drive to check the actual media itself. A copy of an official CD can be the same as the original, bit for bit, resulting in an identical TOC. This discussion seems to be relying on the assumption that the user will master the CD badly, introducing pregaps into the copy (the +2 seconds difference mentioned). This isn't necessarily the case. In contrast, I've seen plenty of badly mastered CDs and, as already discussed here and on the MusicBrainz wiki, different official pressings of the same CD can include quite noticeable differences in track length (more than 2 seconds). Requiring a user to prove that they are entering a legitimate CD is rather straying on the side of guilty until proven innocent. We surely want to encourage users to contribute good data to the system, and the best way to do this is to help correct their mistakes, not to effectively falsely accuse them on their first interaction with MusicBrainz. I'd be vary wary of removing data such as disc IDs which is harder to obtain than most of the data available in MusicBrainz. While there are plenty of websites, books, etc. for obtaining information about artists and release dates, etc., providing a disc ID means that the submitter has to have access to the physical release. This is rare in some cases, especially for albums by lesser known artists, specialised compilations and singles (the latter are very much of their time and become unavailable fairly quickly, while also being more region-specific). They should only really be considered for removal if another official CD is misrecognised. There are far more important issues with the database than the odd homebrew CD being recognised as legitimate. For example, there are a number of entries where the data has been entered and has no disc ID. It would be better to focus on getting IDs for these. Such releases often contain mistakes. For example, last night I updated http://musicbrainz.org/album/36dd547a-7d5f-4568-8b9b-79b1fca05e1e.html?tport=8000 ('Sorry (disc 2)' by Madonna) from the physical CD. There was no TOC associated with the release, but incorrect time data has been entered from some source. This is massively out for track 2, which was misprinted on the cover of the release. Issues like this can only be truly rectified using the official CD, so it seems far better to encourage such contributions than to worry about people entering their own unofficial copies. Thanks, -- Andrew :-) Free Java Software Engineer Red Hat, Inc. (http://www.redhat.com) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://openjdk.java.net PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net) Fingerprint: F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8 _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Aaron Cooper-3
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On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Andrew John Hughes
<gnu_andrew@...> wrote: > There are far more important issues with the database than the odd > homebrew CD being recognised as legitimate. For example, there are a > number of entries where the data has been entered and has no disc ID. > It would be better to focus on getting IDs for these. Such releases > often contain mistakes. For example, last night I updated > http://musicbrainz.org/album/36dd547a-7d5f-4568-8b9b-79b1fca05e1e.html?tport=8000 > ('Sorry (disc 2)' by Madonna) from the physical CD. There was no TOC > associated with the release, but incorrect time data has been entered > from some source. This is massively out for track 2, which was > misprinted on the cover of the release. Issues like this can only be > truly rectified using the official CD, so it seems far better to > encourage such contributions than to worry about people entering their > own unofficial copies. I've been ignoring this thread because Disc IDs are useless to me - I use PUIDs to identify my digital music. I agree with Andrew's sentiments above. The odd homebrew Disc ID isn't going to hurt the database. As long as the track times are reasonably close to the correct times, who cares. There are better places our time could be spent than weeding out "homebrew" Disc IDs. -cooperaa _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by teknojnky
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It would seem to be, that the best solution would be to have some sort of
'home-brew detection' built in to the clients that submit the disc id's, and/or the server when it is submitted. Even if home-brew detection is not fool-proof, it could simply provide a warning and message that home-brew/burned disc id's are not desired for music-brainz and for the user to confirm that the disc id is from a real cd. _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Frederic Da Vitoria
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2009/3/31 Tekno Junky <teknojnky@...> It would seem to be, that the best solution would be to have some sort of Ah, this is an interesting suggestion IMO! -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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Re: How to recognize homebrew discids
by Brian Schweitzer
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On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Aaron Cooper <cooperaa@...> wrote:
I think this touches on the only point where I would ever care about a homebrew. If it's within 2 or 4 seconds, on all tracks, I don't see a reason to remove it. However, if it's way off in some regards - not 2 or 4 seconds, but say 20 seconds too long on the final track, or they cut a silence-hidden track off and made it a separate track (making it look like it should be a whole new release), then I would support removing it, as it's then falsely indicating other things (a different mastering, a different pressing, etc.), and can lead to editors searching for data on releases or release events which don't actually exist. Brian _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-users mailing list MusicBrainz-users@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users |
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