Hula news, ending?

[gass-3]

Hello there

i have been a while offline, so after reading a LOT of emails, i am
going to make a fast summary and see if people agrees.

there are some points in the agenda:

1. Novell had not led out the property of website's content, domains,
templates, etc.

2. Start a Demo server

3. Hosting offers


As i can read, Sebastian is impatient ... i think we all are, but please
be patient. Forking will led to make hula disappear or people will work
in two equal projects. This is called a bad human resources option.
Other people don't want to contribute still because hula is still at
novell ... I can agree with them, but, the copyright is yours. If you
want to contribute, please do so.
I think there is no other chance than to wait.


About the demo server, i think the option about OSDL is very good and
should move on for hula to have some marketing. The idea of a VM is very
good, mainly for security reasons.
The should setup a demo server because it would get visibility for hula.
Also, when novell gives the final decision, we should also release a
"technology preview " (PR) release, even if it is development, so we can
gain more visibility and users will test an actual release ( this is
what everyone want, don't we?)

I want to thank all the offers that have been made for hosting hula.
i think we can consider only 2 options:
 - novell to borrow hula one or 2 servers
 - host hula @ OSDL
Novell will not lose all their interest in hula and making the servers
to be theirs can make them to support ( by this i mean to have people
directly working on hula again).
Also, OSDL offers good conditions for hosting and i think it can be a
consensus.

I wish that you have had a very good Christmas with many presents. Have
a happy new year ... and don't forget to enter with the right foot in
2007.

--
Best Regards,
--
Luis Matos

_______________________________________________
Hula-general mailing list
Hula-general@...
http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general

[Manu-16]

The question to fork is likely becoming a flame war. ;)

Everybody has their own opinion here. I think there are very strong arguments for both sides.
In my opinion, forking would not be so bad for the project. In the past, the project appeared to be dead to the public and due to the latest news from novell, an obvious subjection  would not be the best promotion for the project.

Before the breaking news that novell is going to quit hula, the public might have thought that there are spider webs around hula. After that there was a short peak of attention but right now we are loosing that attraction by waiting for a legal decision from novell. The code is GPLed and we have developers willing to contribute code but waiting for a clear situation. Why not giving them the clear situation and inventing a brand new project or even environment for them. BTW a fork can overcome and overtake the original project for sure, looking at Xorg or Beryl. These projects are now more widely accepted than the original ones.

A fork would attract new attention to the project and would show people, hey we are moving, we are rejuvenating and now something is going on. Come here and help.

I think, relying on the original environment / servers and even the name could stop others because they have no idea that hula is now driven by a community and not novell any more. I am not sure if this is still a question, but hula would benefit from cutting the bands between novell and the project.

Sure, forking could lead projects to death by splitting the strength of developers, but hey, there is nobody except us in the project and if we would fork or just move the project, there would be nobody left. We wouldn't loose much except the old "spider webbed" and greying image of a (in the view of the public) lethargic project.

I don't want to bash hula or novell, please don't get me wrong. I really love hula as everybody else here on the list and I really love where it comes from and in my opinion the netmail core is the way to go. That is the reason why we all are here. I really want to see the project moving and evolving, I just want to support Sebastians opinion.

Cheers,
Manuel


On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:13:18 +0000, Luis Matos <gass@...> wrote:

> Hello there
>
> i have been a while offline, so after reading a LOT of emails, i am
> going to make a fast summary and see if people agrees.
>
> there are some points in the agenda:
>
> 1. Novell had not led out the property of website's content, domains,
> templates, etc.
>
> 2. Start a Demo server
>
> 3. Hosting offers
>
>
> As i can read, Sebastian is impatient ... i think we all are, but please
> be patient. Forking will led to make hula disappear or people will work
> in two equal projects. This is called a bad human resources option.
> Other people don't want to contribute still because hula is still at
> novell ... I can agree with them, but, the copyright is yours. If you
> want to contribute, please do so.
> I think there is no other chance than to wait.
>
>
> About the demo server, i think the option about OSDL is very good and
> should move on for hula to have some marketing. The idea of a VM is very
> good, mainly for security reasons.
> The should setup a demo server because it would get visibility for hula.
> Also, when novell gives the final decision, we should also release a
> "technology preview " (PR) release, even if it is development, so we can
> gain more visibility and users will test an actual release ( this is
> what everyone want, don't we?)
>
> I want to thank all the offers that have been made for hosting hula.
> i think we can consider only 2 options:
>  - novell to borrow hula one or 2 servers
>  - host hula @ OSDL
> Novell will not lose all their interest in hula and making the servers
> to be theirs can make them to support ( by this i mean to have people
> directly working on hula again).
> Also, OSDL offers good conditions for hosting and i think it can be a
> consensus.
>
> I wish that you have had a very good Christmas with many presents. Have
> a happy new year ... and don't forget to enter with the right foot in
> 2007.
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> --
> Luis Matos
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hula-general mailing list
> Hula-general@...
> http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general

_______________________________________________
Hula-general mailing list
Hula-general@...
http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general

[gass-3]

Qua, 2006-12-27 às 17:35 +0100, Manu escreveu:
> The question to fork is likely becoming a flame war. ;)
>
> Everybody has their own opinion here. I think there are very strong
> arguments for both sides.
> In my opinion, forking would not be so bad for the project. In the
> past, the project appeared to be dead to the public and due to the
> latest news from novell, an obvious subjection  would not be the best
> promotion for the project.

let me agree with you and show that forking is wrong.

>
> Before the breaking news that novell is going to quit hula, the public
> might have thought that there are spider webs around hula. After that
> there was a short peak of attention but right now we are loosing that
> attraction by waiting for a legal decision from novell. The code is
> GPLed and we have developers willing to contribute code but waiting
> for a clear situation. Why not giving them the clear situation and
> inventing a brand new project or even environment for them. BTW a fork
> can overcome and overtake the original project for sure, looking at
> Xorg or Beryl. These projects are now more widely accepted than the
> original ones.

Agree but i think we need to stay with the brand, the websites' content
and their domains. We have also to let the door opened for novell ...
don't we? Their contributions can be huge if they afterwords make hula
the substitute for netmail.
>
> A fork would attract new attention to the project and would show
> people, hey we are moving, we are rejuvenating and now something is
> going on. Come here and help.

I agree ... but see the previous point.

>
> I think, relying on the original environment / servers and even the
> name could stop others because they have no idea that hula is now
> driven by a community and not novell any more. I am not sure if this
> is still a question, but hula would benefit from cutting the bands
> between novell and the project.

i think the same name attracts people ... people that will realize that
it is no longer a novell a project.

>
> Sure, forking could lead projects to death by splitting the strength
> of developers, but hey, there is nobody except us in the project and
> if we would fork or just move the project, there would be nobody left.
> We wouldn't loose much except the old "spider webbed" and greying
> image of a (in the view of the public) lethargic project.
>
> I don't want to bash hula or novell, please don't get me wrong. I
> really love hula as everybody else here on the list and I really love
> where it comes from and in my opinion the netmail core is the way to
> go. That is the reason why we all are here. I really want to see the
> project moving and evolving, I just want to support Sebastians
> opinion.

as i said before ... let's wait a little longer. We've waited longer
before!

We are on the news ... for a little more time. let's wait a bit more.

I don't really want to fork hula because there is no reason to do that
*NOW*.

We are really going to move AWAY from the actual structure, that's for
sure and more likely away from novell's servers.

We are just waiting for (legal) permission from novell to do so.

The forum and the demo server can buy us some time on media's mouth.

the one thing that i really think that it's important is to provide
tools for users to feedback quickly, like changing the feedback email
address and the bugzilla.

The developers can contribute, Alex has svn write access and can include
patches that are sent to the -dev list.

If someone is not in the will to sign into the list, please mail one of
the developers or *me* that i will post it into the list (happened
before).


>
> Cheers,
> Manuel
--
Best Regards,
--
Luis Matos

_______________________________________________
Hula-general mailing list
Hula-general@...
http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general

[Alex Hudson]

On Wed, 2006-12-27 at 16:51 +0000, Luis Matos wrote:
> I don't really want to fork hula because there is no reason to do that
> *NOW*.
> ...
>
> We are just waiting for (legal) permission from novell to do so.

Just to be clear; the code itself, since it is GPL'd, can be taken by
anyone - Novell's permission isn't required.

What we need from Novell is the other assets of the project, and the
legal clearance of those associated assets. I would be very afraid that
"forking" the project would signal to Novell that we are not interested
in those assets. I also don't think it's fair to be dissatisfied with
Novell for not having sorted this all out over Christmas.

Of course we could change the name of the project and go our own way. I
would be very much against that. Hula already has an excellent brand and
great artwork, I don't see the point of throwing that away -
particularly since there is no technical reason anyone has raised for
forking the project. In particular, there are a couple of us with svn
write access, and we can and will accept patches from anyone.

> the one thing that i really think that it's important is to provide
> tools for users to feedback quickly, like changing the feedback email
> address and the bugzilla.

That's not a bad idea at all.

Cheers,

Alex.

_______________________________________________
Hula-general mailing list
Hula-general@...
http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general

[epoc1000]

Am 27.12.2006 um 17:51 schrieb Luis Matos:

> Qua, 2006-12-27 às 17:35 +0100, Manu escreveu:
>> The question to fork is likely becoming a flame war. ;)
>>
>> Everybody has their own opinion here. I think there are very strong
>> arguments for both sides.
>> In my opinion, forking would not be so bad for the project. In the
>> past, the project appeared to be dead to the public and due to the
>> latest news from novell, an obvious subjection  would not be the best
>> promotion for the project.
>
> let me agree with you and show that forking is wrong.
>>
>> Before the breaking news that novell is going to quit hula, the  
>> public
>> might have thought that there are spider webs around hula. After that
>> there was a short peak of attention but right now we are loosing that
>> attraction by waiting for a legal decision from novell. The code is
>> GPLed and we have developers willing to contribute code but waiting
>> for a clear situation. Why not giving them the clear situation and
>> inventing a brand new project or even environment for them. BTW a  
>> fork
>> can overcome and overtake the original project for sure, looking at
>> Xorg or Beryl. These projects are now more widely accepted than the
>> original ones.
>
> Agree but i think we need to stay with the brand, the websites'  
> content
> and their domains. We have also to let the door opened for novell ...
> don't we? Their contributions can be huge if they afterwords make hula
> the substitute for netmail.

A future should be possible without Novell or the project
is really dead. Because that means to wait for a economic decision.
No one wants to do the work for a project they got payed for.

>>
>> A fork would attract new attention to the project and would show
>> people, hey we are moving, we are rejuvenating and now something is
>> going on. Come here and help.
>
> I agree ... but see the previous point.
>
>>
>> I think, relying on the original environment / servers and even the
>> name could stop others because they have no idea that hula is now
>> driven by a community and not novell any more. I am not sure if this
>> is still a question, but hula would benefit from cutting the bands
>> between novell and the project.
>
> i think the same name attracts people ... people that will realize  
> that
> it is no longer a novell a project.

people don't know Hula. Hula is just a name and means nothing
about the code and right now it's chance to rename it.

>
>
>>
>> Sure, forking could lead projects to death by splitting the strength
>> of developers, but hey, there is nobody except us in the project and
>> if we would fork or just move the project, there would be nobody  
>> left.
>> We wouldn't loose much except the old "spider webbed" and greying
>> image of a (in the view of the public) lethargic project.
>>
>> I don't want to bash hula or novell, please don't get me wrong. I
>> really love hula as everybody else here on the list and I really love
>> where it comes from and in my opinion the netmail core is the way to
>> go. That is the reason why we all are here. I really want to see the
>> project moving and evolving, I just want to support Sebastians
>> opinion.
>
> as i said before ... let's wait a little longer. We've waited longer
> before!
>
> We are on the news ... for a little more time. let's wait a bit more.
>
> I don't really want to fork hula because there is no reason to do that
> *NOW*.
>
> We are really going to move AWAY from the actual structure, that's for
> sure and more likely away from novell's servers.

moving away means that only the domains and the name stays
the same, so why don't change it?!

>
> We are just waiting for (legal) permission from novell to do so.
>
> The forum and the demo server can buy us some time on media's mouth.

no one outside the list knows the forum and a demo server makes
no sense with a beta or stable release. email is mission critical and
people should be able to use it.

>
> the one thing that i really think that it's important is to provide
> tools for users to feedback quickly, like changing the feedback email
> address and the bugzilla.

first, new infrastructure.

>
> The developers can contribute, Alex has svn write access and can  
> include
> patches that are sent to the -dev list.
>

developers don't want to contribute code to a project who has
no control over the infrastructure.

> If someone is not in the will to sign into the list, please mail  
> one of
> the developers or *me* that i will post it into the list (happened
> before).
>
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Manuel
> --
> Best Regards,
> --
> Luis Matos
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hula-general mailing list
> Hula-general@...
> http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general

_______________________________________________
Hula-general mailing list
Hula-general@...
http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general