Icons in panel menu bar

[Vincent Untz]

Hi,

When the panel was changed to kept some icons when the menu icons are
hidden, all icons in the panel menu bar were kept. A new change just got
committed to only keep icons for application menu items, place menu
items and preference menu items. Or if you prefer, icons for categories,
"Connect to server", "Search files", "Recent documents", "Help", "About
GNOME", "Lock", "Log out", "Shut down" were removed.

I'm not convinced by this change: some part probably makes sense, but
something "feels" wrong to me. Maybe it's because I expect the panel
menu bar to be a bit different.

It could also be because by default, you get three menus (Applications /
Places / System), and only Places has some icons (and quite a few of
them) while the two others don't if you don't open a submenu. Maybe it
kind of breaks a visual balance for me...

So, yeah, I'd just like to get feedback to know if it's right or not, if
it needs to be updated slightly, etc.

Thanks,

Vincent

--
Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés.
_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@...
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

[nightz]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Vincent Untz <vuntz@...> wrote:

Hi,

When the panel was changed to kept some icons when the menu icons are
hidden, all icons in the panel menu bar were kept. A new change just got
committed to only keep icons for application menu items, place menu
items and preference menu items. Or if you prefer, icons for categories,
"Connect to server", "Search files", "Recent documents", "Help", "About
GNOME", "Lock", "Log out", "Shut down" were removed.

I'm not convinced by this change: some part probably makes sense, but
something "feels" wrong to me. Maybe it's because I expect the panel
menu bar to be a bit different.

It could also be because by default, you get three menus (Applications /
Places / System), and only Places has some icons (and quite a few of
them) while the two others don't if you don't open a submenu. Maybe it
kind of breaks a visual balance for me...

So, yeah, I'd just like to get feedback to know if it's right or not, if
it needs to be updated slightly, etc.

Thanks,

Vincent

Vincent,

I dont know if its just me but on my ubuntu jaunty i get no icons on the menu itself (if i disabled icons) and
with icons enabled, i get them on all menus. Am im misunderstanding you?

Cheers,
Rômulo.

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@...
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

[Vincent Untz]

Le vendredi 31 juillet 2009, à 18:21 -0300, Romulo a écrit :
> I dont know if its just me but on my ubuntu jaunty i get no icons on the
> menu itself (if i disabled icons) and
> with icons enabled, i get them on all menus. Am im misunderstanding you?

You need GNOME 2.27.x to see the correct behavior: 2.27.5 to see the
"old" behavior I was talking about, and gnome-panel from git to see the
change that lead to this mail.

Vincent

--
Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés.
_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@...
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

[Allan Day-2]

Hi Vincent,

On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 22:02 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

> Hi,
>
> When the panel was changed to kept some icons when the menu icons are
> hidden, all icons in the panel menu bar were kept. A new change just got
> committed to only keep icons for application menu items, place menu
> items and preference menu items. Or if you prefer, icons for categories,
> "Connect to server", "Search files", "Recent documents", "Help", "About
> GNOME", "Lock", "Log out", "Shut down" were removed.
>
> I'm not convinced by this change: some part probably makes sense, but
> something "feels" wrong to me. Maybe it's because I expect the panel
> menu bar to be a bit different.
>
> It could also be because by default, you get three menus (Applications /
> Places / System), and only Places has some icons (and quite a few of
> them) while the two others don't if you don't open a submenu. Maybe it
> kind of breaks a visual balance for me...
>
> So, yeah, I'd just like to get feedback to know if it's right or not, if
> it needs to be updated slightly, etc.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vincent

Any chance of a screenshot or two? It's difficult to judge these visual
issues on description alone.

Allan

--
aday on irc.gnome.org
allanpday on GoogleTalk

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@...
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

[Vinicius Depizzol]

Hi.

The panel menu bar is really not an usual menu bar. Unlike menus found
in applications, it is used in different situations and for different
things.

This feeling of something wrong maybe happens there when you don't
have the icons because all these items are actually "shortcuts" to
applications or windows which don't belong to the panel itself. And
people are used to consider shortcuts as something that always comes
with an icon.

Because of this, *at least by now* I don't think we should include the
same guidelines we are using for the real menu items. Keeping all the
icons in the panel seems a saner option. This way we'll just keep the
way it is in 2.26. There will be no risk of leaving something worse
than before. :)

Thank you.

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 17:02, Vincent Untz<vuntz@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> When the panel was changed to kept some icons when the menu icons are
> hidden, all icons in the panel menu bar were kept. A new change just got
> committed to only keep icons for application menu items, place menu
> items and preference menu items. Or if you prefer, icons for categories,
> "Connect to server", "Search files", "Recent documents", "Help", "About
> GNOME", "Lock", "Log out", "Shut down" were removed.
>
> I'm not convinced by this change: some part probably makes sense, but
> something "feels" wrong to me. Maybe it's because I expect the panel
> menu bar to be a bit different.
>
> It could also be because by default, you get three menus (Applications /
> Places / System), and only Places has some icons (and quite a few of
> them) while the two others don't if you don't open a submenu. Maybe it
> kind of breaks a visual balance for me...
>
> So, yeah, I'd just like to get feedback to know if it's right or not, if
> it needs to be updated slightly, etc.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vincent
>
> --
> Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés.
> _______________________________________________
> Usability mailing list
> Usability@...
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability
>

--
Vinicius Depizzol <vdepizzol@...>
http://vinicius.depizzol.com.br
_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@...
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

[Frederic Crozat]

Le vendredi 31 juillet 2009 à 22:02 +0200, Vincent Untz a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> When the panel was changed to kept some icons when the menu icons are
> hidden, all icons in the panel menu bar were kept. A new change just got
> committed to only keep icons for application menu items, place menu
> items and preference menu items. Or if you prefer, icons for categories,
> "Connect to server", "Search files", "Recent documents", "Help", "About
> GNOME", "Lock", "Log out", "Shut down" were removed.
>
> I'm not convinced by this change: some part probably makes sense, but
> something "feels" wrong to me. Maybe it's because I expect the panel
> menu bar to be a bit different.
>
> It could also be because by default, you get three menus (Applications /
> Places / System), and only Places has some icons (and quite a few of
> them) while the two others don't if you don't open a submenu. Maybe it
> kind of breaks a visual balance for me...
>
> So, yeah, I'd just like to get feedback to know if it's right or not, if
> it needs to be updated slightly, etc.

Is there any plan to revert this (back to icons on submenus) ? Current
situation is really inconsistent and the mix between no icons and icons
is a nightmare, mainly in Applications menu.

--
Frederic Crozat <fcrozat@...>
Mandriva

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@...
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

[Vincent Untz]

Hi,

Le mercredi 26 août 2009, à 17:54 +0200, Frederic Crozat a écrit :

> Le vendredi 31 juillet 2009 à 22:02 +0200, Vincent Untz a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > When the panel was changed to kept some icons when the menu icons are
> > hidden, all icons in the panel menu bar were kept. A new change just got
> > committed to only keep icons for application menu items, place menu
> > items and preference menu items. Or if you prefer, icons for categories,
> > "Connect to server", "Search files", "Recent documents", "Help", "About
> > GNOME", "Lock", "Log out", "Shut down" were removed.
> >
> > I'm not convinced by this change: some part probably makes sense, but
> > something "feels" wrong to me. Maybe it's because I expect the panel
> > menu bar to be a bit different.
> >
> > It could also be because by default, you get three menus (Applications /
> > Places / System), and only Places has some icons (and quite a few of
> > them) while the two others don't if you don't open a submenu. Maybe it
> > kind of breaks a visual balance for me...
> >
> > So, yeah, I'd just like to get feedback to know if it's right or not, if
> > it needs to be updated slightly, etc.
>
> Is there any plan to revert this (back to icons on submenus) ? Current
> situation is really inconsistent and the mix between no icons and icons
> is a nightmare, mainly in Applications menu.

The only feedback I got about this is that we should revert the change
for categories in the applications menu (and system menu, for the
preferences). Some people would also like other icons to come back in
the panel menu (and just the panel menus, because it's a special menu).

Usability people: can you step up and tell us what is the right thing to
do here? At the moment, my decision as maintainer is to put back the
icons for categories in the applications menu.

Documentation people: does going back to showing icons there break some
documentation that was updated?

Release team: would you approve such a change at this point?

Thanks,

Vincent

--
Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés.
_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@...
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

[Matthias Clasen-2]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 4:41 AM, Vincent Untz<vuntz@...> wrote:

 At the moment, my decision as maintainer is to put back the
> icons for categories in the applications menu.
>
> Documentation people: does going back to showing icons there break some
> documentation that was updated?
>
> Release team: would you approve such a change at this point?
>

-1 from me. Too late, not essential.
_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@...
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

[Andreas Nilsson]

On 08/31/2009 10:41 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Le mercredi 26 août 2009, à 17:54 +0200, Frederic Crozat a écrit :
>    
>> Le vendredi 31 juillet 2009 à 22:02 +0200, Vincent Untz a écrit :
>>      
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> When the panel was changed to kept some icons when the menu icons are
>>> hidden, all icons in the panel menu bar were kept. A new change just got
>>> committed to only keep icons for application menu items, place menu
>>> items and preference menu items. Or if you prefer, icons for categories,
>>> "Connect to server", "Search files", "Recent documents", "Help", "About
>>> GNOME", "Lock", "Log out", "Shut down" were removed.
>>>
>>> I'm not convinced by this change: some part probably makes sense, but
>>> something "feels" wrong to me. Maybe it's because I expect the panel
>>> menu bar to be a bit different.
>>>
>>> It could also be because by default, you get three menus (Applications /
>>> Places / System), and only Places has some icons (and quite a few of
>>> them) while the two others don't if you don't open a submenu. Maybe it
>>> kind of breaks a visual balance for me...
>>>
>>> So, yeah, I'd just like to get feedback to know if it's right or not, if
>>> it needs to be updated slightly, etc.
>>>        
>> Is there any plan to revert this (back to icons on submenus) ? Current
>> situation is really inconsistent and the mix between no icons and icons
>> is a nightmare, mainly in Applications menu.
>>      
> The only feedback I got about this is that we should revert the change
> for categories in the applications menu (and system menu, for the
> preferences). Some people would also like other icons to come back in
> the panel menu (and just the panel menus, because it's a special menu).
>
> Usability people: can you step up and tell us what is the right thing to
> do here? At the moment, my decision as maintainer is to put back the
> icons for categories in the applications menu.
>    

Matthew Paul Thomas seems to have been unsubscribed from this list (not
on purpose, no idea what happened).

He said this on IRC:

following the guideline of icons for dynamic objects, there should be
icons for:
* application categories
* applications * Places folders, volumes, and Network
* items inside the "Recent Documents" submenu
* items inside the "Preferences" and "Administration" submenus.

and there should _not_ be icons for:
* "Connect to Server..."
* "Search for Files..."
* the "Recent Documents" submenu title
* any of the top-level items in the "System" menu.


Lets hope he's able to resubscribe soon.
- Andreas
_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@...
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

[Shaun McCance-2]

On Mon, 2009-08-31 at 10:41 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Le mercredi 26 août 2009, à 17:54 +0200, Frederic Crozat a écrit :
> > Le vendredi 31 juillet 2009 à 22:02 +0200, Vincent Untz a écrit :
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > When the panel was changed to kept some icons when the menu icons are
> > > hidden, all icons in the panel menu bar were kept. A new change just got
> > > committed to only keep icons for application menu items, place menu
> > > items and preference menu items. Or if you prefer, icons for categories,
> > > "Connect to server", "Search files", "Recent documents", "Help", "About
> > > GNOME", "Lock", "Log out", "Shut down" were removed.
> > >
> > > I'm not convinced by this change: some part probably makes sense, but
> > > something "feels" wrong to me. Maybe it's because I expect the panel
> > > menu bar to be a bit different.
> > >
> > > It could also be because by default, you get three menus (Applications /
> > > Places / System), and only Places has some icons (and quite a few of
> > > them) while the two others don't if you don't open a submenu. Maybe it
> > > kind of breaks a visual balance for me...
> > >
> > > So, yeah, I'd just like to get feedback to know if it's right or not, if
> > > it needs to be updated slightly, etc.
> >
> > Is there any plan to revert this (back to icons on submenus) ? Current
> > situation is really inconsistent and the mix between no icons and icons
> > is a nightmare, mainly in Applications menu.
>
> The only feedback I got about this is that we should revert the change
> for categories in the applications menu (and system menu, for the
> preferences). Some people would also like other icons to come back in
> the panel menu (and just the panel menus, because it's a special menu).
>
> Usability people: can you step up and tell us what is the right thing to
> do here? At the moment, my decision as maintainer is to put back the
> icons for categories in the applications menu.
>
> Documentation people: does going back to showing icons there break some
> documentation that was updated?

I'm not seeing any updates in gnome-user-docs.  I can't be certain
about other documents, but it seems unlikely that anything would be
showing screenshots of that.

If this change just makes things more like they used to be, then I
don't have any objections from the documentation side.

--
Shaun

> Release team: would you approve such a change at this point?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vincent
>

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@...
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

[Kirk Bridger]

 From a usability standpoint, MPT's approach breaks from having visual
consistency.  Sure it follows the guidelines of only dynamic objects
having icons, but it breaks visual consistency.

So either move the non-dynamic items under a dynamic object so you can
have visual consistency (reorganize the info to better suit the eye) or
change the guideline for special cases.

I vote for leaving the icons in.  There is already an indicator to
visually identify dynamic objects (the little arrow to the right of the
text I believe) - there's no need to differentiate them via inclusion of
an icon.  Lacking an icon also does not naturally map to user
expectations.  How does not having an icon indicate anything to anyone,
in particular that it is not a "dynamic object"?  I don't get the
mapping at least.


Kirk




Andreas Nilsson wrote:

> On 08/31/2009 10:41 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Le mercredi 26 août 2009, à 17:54 +0200, Frederic Crozat a écrit :
>>  
>>> Le vendredi 31 juillet 2009 à 22:02 +0200, Vincent Untz a écrit :
>>>    
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> When the panel was changed to kept some icons when the menu icons are
>>>> hidden, all icons in the panel menu bar were kept. A new change
>>>> just got
>>>> committed to only keep icons for application menu items, place menu
>>>> items and preference menu items. Or if you prefer, icons for
>>>> categories,
>>>> "Connect to server", "Search files", "Recent documents", "Help",
>>>> "About
>>>> GNOME", "Lock", "Log out", "Shut down" were removed.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not convinced by this change: some part probably makes sense, but
>>>> something "feels" wrong to me. Maybe it's because I expect the panel
>>>> menu bar to be a bit different.
>>>>
>>>> It could also be because by default, you get three menus
>>>> (Applications /
>>>> Places / System), and only Places has some icons (and quite a few of
>>>> them) while the two others don't if you don't open a submenu. Maybe it
>>>> kind of breaks a visual balance for me...
>>>>
>>>> So, yeah, I'd just like to get feedback to know if it's right or
>>>> not, if
>>>> it needs to be updated slightly, etc.
>>>>        
>>> Is there any plan to revert this (back to icons on submenus) ? Current
>>> situation is really inconsistent and the mix between no icons and icons
>>> is a nightmare, mainly in Applications menu.
>>>      
>> The only feedback I got about this is that we should revert the change
>> for categories in the applications menu (and system menu, for the
>> preferences). Some people would also like other icons to come back in
>> the panel menu (and just the panel menus, because it's a special menu).
>>
>> Usability people: can you step up and tell us what is the right thing to
>> do here? At the moment, my decision as maintainer is to put back the
>> icons for categories in the applications menu.
>>    
> Matthew Paul Thomas seems to have been unsubscribed from this list
> (not on purpose, no idea what happened).
>
> He said this on IRC:
>
> following the guideline of icons for dynamic objects, there should be
> icons for:
> * application categories
> * applications * Places folders, volumes, and Network
> * items inside the "Recent Documents" submenu
> * items inside the "Preferences" and "Administration" submenus.
>
> and there should _not_ be icons for:
> * "Connect to Server..."
> * "Search for Files..."
> * the "Recent Documents" submenu title
> * any of the top-level items in the "System" menu.
>
>
> Lets hope he's able to resubscribe soon.
> - Andreas
> _______________________________________________
> Usability mailing list
> Usability@...
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@...
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability