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Identity Management vs. Users/Groups
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Identity Management vs. Users/Groups
by Chad Kieffer-3
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I know this has been discussed in previous threads, unfortunately I
don't have a copy of the thread any longer so I'm just going to post this. I think the main "Identity Management" label in the admin menu should be reverted to "Users/Groups" or something similar. While the label now needs to represent a broader topic, Identity Management seems too broad and less recognizable. Users/Groups seems broad enough and perhaps it's okay to repeat it in the submenu. Just my $0.02. - Chad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] |
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Re: Identity Management vs. Users/Groups
by Tim Almdal
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Keep in mind, that if you install a identity provider that is not
writable (i.e. ldap), then you won't see the User/Group sub menu, as
there is no user management capability. So the high level menu needs
to reflect that it might have nothing to with users and groups.
I was going to to put the self registration module admin under there, but as an alternative: 1) Put the User/Group back as a high level menu (this is where it use to be) 2) Create a high level menu item ("Extensions" or "Plugins") I'm sure there is a better name. Under this menu we put modules and identity provider as they both are related to extending gallery. 3) User registration administration will go under settings. Tim Chad Kieffer wrote: I know this has been discussed in previous threads, unfortunately I don't have a copy of the thread any longer so I'm just going to post this. I think the main "Identity Management" label in the admin menu should be reverted to "Users/Groups" or something similar. While the label now needs to represent a broader topic, Identity Management seems too broad and less recognizable. Users/Groups seems broad enough and perhaps it's okay to repeat it in the submenu. Just my $0.02. - Chad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] |
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Re: Identity Management vs. Users/Groups
by Chad Kieffer-3
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On Oct 29, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Tim Almdal wrote:
This sounds like a better way to go. Extensions seems to be the more accurate label, but I wouldn't violently object to Plugins. In the case of using the LDAP provider, would the restored Users/Groups admin be replaced by the LDAP provider admin UI? That seems usable and intuitive to me. Why couldn't 'User registration' go under the restored Users/Groups?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] |
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Re: Identity Management vs. Users/Groups
by Tim Almdal
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In the case of using the LDAP provider, would the restored Users/Groups admin be replaced by the LDAP provider admin UI? That seems usable and intuitive to me.
Why couldn't 'User registration' go under the restored Users/Groups?
----- Original Message ----- From: Chad Kieffer <chad@...> Date: Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:32 pm Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Identity Management vs. Users/Groups To: Gallery development discussion list <gallery-devel@...> > On Oct 29, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Tim Almdal wrote: > > > Keep in mind, that if you install a identity provider that is > not > > writable (i.e. ldap), then you won't see the User/Group sub > menu, as > > there is no user management capability. So the high > level menu > > needs to reflect that it might have nothing to with users and > groups.> > > I was going to to put the self registration module admin > under > > there, but as an alternative: > > 1) Put the User/Group back as a high level menu (this is where > it > > use to be) > > 2) Create a high level menu item ("Extensions" or "Plugins") > I'm > > sure there is a better name. Under this menu we put modules > and > > identity provider as they both are related to extending gallery. > > 3) User registration administration will go under settings. > > This sounds like a better way to go. Extensions seems to be the > more > accurate label, but I wouldn't violently object to Plugins. > > In the case of using the LDAP provider, would the restored > Users/ > Groups admin be replaced by the LDAP provider admin UI? That > seems > usable and intuitive to me. > > Why couldn't 'User registration' go under the restored Users/Groups? > > > > > Chad Kieffer wrote: > >> > >> I know this has been discussed in previous threads, > unfortunately I > >> don't have a copy of the thread any longer so I'm just going > to post > >> this. > >> > >> I think the main "Identity Management" label in the admin > menu should > >> be reverted to "Users/Groups" or something similar. While the label > >> now needs to represent a broader topic, Identity Management > seems too > >> broad and less recognizable. Users/Groups seems broad > enough and > >> perhaps it's okay to repeat it in the submenu. > >> > >> Just my $0.02. > >> > >> - Chad > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------- > >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in > SF, CA > >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. > Jumpstart > >> your > >> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to > market > >> and stay > >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. > Register now! > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > >> __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ > >> > >> [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] > >> [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.39/2468 - Release > Date: > >> 10/29/09 19:49:00 > >> > >> > > Website: http://www.timalmdal.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] |
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Re: Identity Management vs. Users/Groups
by Bharat Mediratta
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Chad Kieffer wrote:
> On Oct 29, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Tim Almdal wrote: > >> Keep in mind, that if you install a identity provider that is not >> writable (i.e. ldap), then you won't see the User/Group sub menu, as >> there is no user management capability. So the high level menu needs >> to reflect that it might have nothing to with users and groups. >> >> I was going to to put the self registration module admin under there, >> but as an alternative: >> 1) Put the User/Group back as a high level menu (this is where it use >> to be) >> 2) Create a high level menu item ("Extensions" or "Plugins") I'm sure >> there is a better name. Under this menu we put modules and identity >> provider as they both are related to extending gallery. >> 3) User registration administration will go under settings. > > This sounds like a better way to go. Extensions seems to be the more > accurate label, but I wouldn't violently object to Plugins. This approach worries me a bit because if you're using LDAP then it always seems like you're using some funky UI to do normal stuff. Ie, I don't think that Gallery 3 ui should present itself as a core with a bunch of extensions. It should be a seamless whole. Additionally, the names "Extensions" and "Plugins" are new. We call them "modules" both in the code and in the UI currently, so I'd expect that name to recur in the UI as well. I'm not averse to renaming modules to plugins or extensions. It would not be a cheap change, but it's doable and if you want to do that let's do it before 3.0. But I'd hate to see us confuse the issue with yet another name. Here's what I propose: 1) Put "Identity providers" should go under Settings since the provider you use is a core setting. 2) If there's no User/Group administration, that menu option should go away. So it won't exist for LDAP, but it'll exist for core. -Bharat ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] |
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Re: Identity Management vs. Users/Groups
by Kevin Nehls
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On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Bharat Mediratta <bharat@...> wrote:
Purely from a support standpoint; having the terms modules and plugins inter-mixed in G2 has been quite confusing to a fair number of people. It's really hard for non-native English speakers when we call something a module, they are looking for that term and can't find it. If we do make the change we need to make the change 100%., For example, if they are called 'plugins' the directory needs to be called plugins. It cannot just be a change in the UI as we did in G2. All documentation needs to be changed as well. Just my $0.02 Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] |
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Re: Identity Management vs. Users/Groups
by Tim Almdal
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Works for me:
Here's what I propose: 1) Put "Identity providers" should go under Settings since the provider you use is a core setting. 2) If there's no User/Group administration, that menu option should go away. So it won't exist for LDAP, but it'll exist for core. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bharat Mediratta <bharat@...> Date: Friday, October 30, 2009 8:46 am Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Identity Management vs. Users/Groups To: Chad Kieffer <chad@...> Cc: Gallery development discussion list <gallery-devel@...> > Chad Kieffer wrote: > > On Oct 29, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Tim Almdal wrote: > > > >> Keep in mind, that if you install a identity provider that is > not > >> writable (i.e. ldap), then you won't see the User/Group sub > menu, as > >> there is no user management capability. So the high > level menu needs > >> to reflect that it might have nothing to with users and groups. > >> > >> I was going to to put the self registration module admin > under there, > >> but as an alternative: > >> 1) Put the User/Group back as a high level menu (this is > where it use > >> to be) > >> 2) Create a high level menu item ("Extensions" or "Plugins") > I'm sure > >> there is a better name. Under this menu we put modules and > identity > >> provider as they both are related to extending gallery. > >> 3) User registration administration will go under settings. > > > > This sounds like a better way to go. Extensions seems to be > the more > > accurate label, but I wouldn't violently object to Plugins. > > This approach worries me a bit because if you're using LDAP then > it > always seems like you're using some funky UI to do normal > stuff. Ie, I > don't think that Gallery 3 ui should present itself as a core > with a > bunch of extensions. It should be a seamless whole. > > Additionally, the names "Extensions" and "Plugins" are > new. We call > them "modules" both in the code and in the UI currently, so I'd > expect > that name to recur in the UI as well. I'm not averse to > renaming > modules to plugins or extensions. It would not be a cheap > change, but > it's doable and if you want to do that let's do it before > 3.0. But I'd > hate to see us confuse the issue with yet another name. > > Here's what I propose: > 1) Put "Identity providers" should go under Settings since the > provider > you use is a core setting. > > 2) If there's no User/Group administration, that menu option > should go > away. So it won't exist for LDAP, but it'll exist for core. > > -Bharat > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------- > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in > SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. > Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market > and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ > > [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] > [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] > Website: http://www.timalmdal.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] |
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Re: Identity Management vs. Users/Groups
by Chad Kieffer-3
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Works for me too.
On Oct 30, 2009, at 10:47 AM, Tim Almdal <tnalmdal@...> wrote: > Works for me: > > Here's what I propose: > 1) Put "Identity providers" should go under Settings since the > provider you use is a core setting. > > 2) If there's no User/Group administration, that menu option should > go away. So it won't exist for LDAP, but it'll exist for core. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bharat Mediratta <bharat@...> > Date: Friday, October 30, 2009 8:46 am > Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Identity Management vs. Users/Groups > To: Chad Kieffer <chad@...> > Cc: Gallery development discussion list <gallery-devel@... > > > > > Chad Kieffer wrote: > > > On Oct 29, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Tim Almdal wrote: > > > > > >> Keep in mind, that if you install a identity provider that is > > not > > >> writable (i.e. ldap), then you won't see the User/Group sub > > menu, as > > >> there is no user management capability. So the high > > level menu needs > > >> to reflect that it might have nothing to with users and groups. > > >> > > >> I was going to to put the self registration module admin > > under there, > > >> but as an alternative: > > >> 1) Put the User/Group back as a high level menu (this is > > where it use > > >> to be) > > >> 2) Create a high level menu item ("Extensions" or "Plugins") > > I'm sure > > >> there is a better name. Under this menu we put modules and > > identity > > >> provider as they both are related to extending gallery. > > >> 3) User registration administration will go under settings. > > > > > > This sounds like a better way to go. Extensions seems to be > > the more > > > accurate label, but I wouldn't violently object to Plugins. > > > > This approach worries me a bit because if you're using LDAP then > > it > > always seems like you're using some funky UI to do normal > > stuff. Ie, I > > don't think that Gallery 3 ui should present itself as a core > > with a > > bunch of extensions. It should be a seamless whole. > > > > Additionally, the names "Extensions" and "Plugins" are > > new. We call > > them "modules" both in the code and in the UI currently, so I'd > > expect > > that name to recur in the UI as well. I'm not averse to > > renaming > > modules to plugins or extensions. It would not be a cheap > > change, but > > it's doable and if you want to do that let's do it before > > 3.0. But I'd > > hate to see us confuse the issue with yet another name. > > > > Here's what I propose: > > 1) Put "Identity providers" should go under Settings since the > > provider > > you use is a core setting. > > > > 2) If there's no User/Group administration, that menu option > > should go > > away. So it won't exist for LDAP, but it'll exist for core. > > > > -Bharat > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in > > SF, CA > > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. > > Jumpstart your > > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market > > and stay > > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register > now! > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > > __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ > > > > [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] > > [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] > > > > Website: http://www.timalmdal.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] |
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Re: Identity Management vs. Users/Groups
by Tim Almdal
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I'll try to make those changes this weekend
----- Original Message ----- From: Chad Kieffer <chad@...> Date: Friday, October 30, 2009 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Identity Management vs. Users/Groups To: Tim Almdal <tnalmdal@...> Cc: Bharat Mediratta <bharat@...>, Gallery development discussion list <gallery-devel@...> > Works for me too. > > On Oct 30, 2009, at 10:47 AM, Tim Almdal <tnalmdal@...> wrote: > > > Works for me: > > > > Here's what I propose: > > 1) Put "Identity providers" should go under Settings since > the > > provider you use is a core setting. > > > > 2) If there's no User/Group administration, that menu option > should > > go away. So it won't exist for LDAP, but it'll exist for core. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bharat Mediratta <bharat@...> > > Date: Friday, October 30, 2009 8:46 am > > Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Identity Management vs. Users/Groups > > To: Chad Kieffer <chad@...> > > Cc: Gallery development discussion list <gallery- > devel@... > > > > > > > > Chad Kieffer wrote: > > > > On Oct 29, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Tim Almdal wrote: > > > > > > > >> Keep in mind, that if you install a identity provider > that is > > > not > > > >> writable (i.e. ldap), then you won't see the User/Group sub > > > menu, as > > > >> there is no user management capability. So the high > > > level menu needs > > > >> to reflect that it might have nothing to with users and groups. > > > >> > > > >> I was going to to put the self registration module admin > > > under there, > > > >> but as an alternative: > > > >> 1) Put the User/Group back as a high level menu (this is > > > where it use > > > >> to be) > > > >> 2) Create a high level menu item ("Extensions" or "Plugins") > > > I'm sure > > > >> there is a better name. Under this menu we put modules and > > > identity > > > >> provider as they both are related to extending gallery. > > > >> 3) User registration administration will go under settings. > > > > > > > > This sounds like a better way to go. Extensions seems to be > > > the more > > > > accurate label, but I wouldn't violently object to Plugins. > > > > > > This approach worries me a bit because if you're using LDAP then > > > it > > > always seems like you're using some funky UI to do normal > > > stuff. Ie, I > > > don't think that Gallery 3 ui should present itself as a core > > > with a > > > bunch of extensions. It should be a seamless whole. > > > > > > Additionally, the names "Extensions" and "Plugins" are > > > new. We call > > > them "modules" both in the code and in the UI currently, so I'd > > > expect > > > that name to recur in the UI as well. I'm not averse to > > > renaming > > > modules to plugins or extensions. It would not be a cheap > > > change, but > > > it's doable and if you want to do that let's do it before > > > 3.0. But I'd > > > hate to see us confuse the issue with yet another name. > > > > > > Here's what I propose: > > > 1) Put "Identity providers" should go under Settings since the > > > provider > > > you use is a core setting. > > > > > > 2) If there's no User/Group administration, that menu option > > > should go > > > away. So it won't exist for LDAP, but it'll exist for core. > > > > > > -Bharat > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > ------------- > > > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in > > > SF, CA > > > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. > > > Jumpstart your > > > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market > > > and stay > > > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. > Register > > now! > > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > > > __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ > > > > > > [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] > > > [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] > > > > > > > Website: http://www.timalmdal.com > > > Website: http://www.timalmdal.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] |
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Re: Identity Management vs. Users/Groups
by floridave
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A bit late to the game...
I echo Kevin, we can't confuse the users more with different names. Going for the 80% rule: what the heck is LDAP? Does it fit? Dave At 09:53 AM 10/30/2009, Kevin Nehls wrote: >On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Bharat Mediratta ><<mailto:bharat@...>bharat@...> wrote: >Additionally, the names "Extensions" and "Plugins" are new. We call >them "modules" both in the code and in the UI currently, so I'd expect >that name to recur in the UI as well. I'm not averse to renaming >modules to plugins or extensions. It would not be a cheap change, but >it's doable and if you want to do that let's do it before 3.0. But I'd >hate to see us confuse the issue with yet another name. > > >Purely from a support standpoint; having the terms modules and >plugins inter-mixed in G2 has been quite confusing to a fair number >of people. It's really hard for non-native English speakers when we >call something a module, they are looking for that term and can't find it. > >If we do make the change we need to make the change 100%., For >example, if they are called 'plugins' the directory needs to be >called plugins. It cannot just be a change in the UI as we did in >G2. All documentation needs to be changed as well. > >Just my $0.02 > >Kevin >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA >is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your >developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay >ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! >http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference >__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ > >[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] >[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] |
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Re: Identity Management vs. Users/Groups
by Bharat Mediratta
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Dave Moore wrote:
> A bit late to the game... > I echo Kevin, we can't confuse the users more with different names. > Going for the 80% rule: what the heck is LDAP? Does it fit? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_Directory_Access_Protocol Most companies have an internal LDAP directory which we can use for authentication. With the changes that Tim has made, we can now plug in an ldap module to take advantage of that. The support for pluggable authentication is in core, but the actual ldap module is off in the contrib dir. -Bharat ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________ [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ] [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ] |
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