Integration Tests Are a Scam

[Josue]

Presentation of Rainsberger.
http://www.infoq.com/presentations/integration-tests-scam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Donaldson, John (GEO)]

Yes, good presentation. Very compelling.
John D.

-----Original Message-----
From: testdrivendevelopment@... [mailto:testdrivendevelopment@...] On Behalf Of Josue Barbosa dos Santos
Sent: 11 September 2009 02:58
To: testdrivendevelopment@...; agile-testing@...
Subject: [TDD] Integration Tests Are a Scam

Presentation of Rainsberger.
http://www.infoq.com/presentations/integration-tests-scam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Kim Gräsman-2]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 02:57, Josue Barbosa dos
Santos<josuesantos@...> wrote:
> Presentation of Rainsberger.
> http://www.infoq.com/presentations/integration-tests-scam

I like the presentation. It adds more meat to the slogan, which I
found pretty hard to understand before seeing this.

I'm still struggling with the mock setup, though. As I understand it,
for every collaboration with an interface, I need to configure or
create a mock, and that gets pretty cumbersome.

I suspect that means the interfaces are badly designed...? Where can I
learn how to do it better?

Thanks,
- Kim

[Ken Chien]

Kim,

If you're programming in Java, take a look at Mockito (http://mockito.org/).
For info on mock objects in general, take a look at
http://www.mockobjects.com/

Regards,
Ken Chien
http://geekyninja.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/kenrickchien


On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Kim Gräsman <kim.grasman@...> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 02:57, Josue Barbosa dos
> Santos<josuesantos@... <josuesantos%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> > Presentation of Rainsberger.
> > http://www.infoq.com/presentations/integration-tests-scam
>
> I like the presentation. It adds more meat to the slogan, which I
> found pretty hard to understand before seeing this.
>
> I'm still struggling with the mock setup, though. As I understand it,
> for every collaboration with an interface, I need to configure or
> create a mock, and that gets pretty cumbersome.
>
> I suspect that means the interfaces are badly designed...? Where can I
> learn how to do it better?
>
> Thanks,
> - Kim
>  
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kim Gräsman-2]

Ken,

Thanks -- I'm mostly in C++ and sometimes .NET, I guess I was looking
for more general OO design reading. Currently trying to get through
"Object Design: Roles, Responsibilities and Collaborations", but not
really seeing the light.

- Kim

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 17:43, Ken Chien<ken.chien@...> wrote:

> Kim,
>
> If you're programming in Java, take a look at Mockito (http://mockito.org/).
> For info on mock objects in general, take a look at
> http://www.mockobjects.com/
>
> Regards,
> Ken Chien
> http://geekyninja.blogspot.com
> http://twitter.com/kenrickchien
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Kim Gräsman <kim.grasman@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 02:57, Josue Barbosa dos
>> Santos<josuesantos@... <josuesantos%40gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > Presentation of Rainsberger.
>> > http://www.infoq.com/presentations/integration-tests-scam
>>
>> I like the presentation. It adds more meat to the slogan, which I
>> found pretty hard to understand before seeing this.
>>
>> I'm still struggling with the mock setup, though. As I understand it,
>> for every collaboration with an interface, I need to configure or
>> create a mock, and that gets pretty cumbersome.
>>
>> I suspect that means the interfaces are badly designed...? Where can I
>> learn how to do it better?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> - Kim
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Josue]

May be this upcoming book from Nat and Steve (growing object-oriented
software, guided by tests). You can read something here
http://www.mockobjects.com/book/

<http://www.mockobjects.com/book/>Abraços,

Josué.



On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Kim Gräsman <kim.grasman@...> wrote:

>
>
> Ken,
>
> Thanks -- I'm mostly in C++ and sometimes .NET, I guess I was looking
> for more general OO design reading. Currently trying to get through
> "Object Design: Roles, Responsibilities and Collaborations", but not
> really seeing the light.
>
> - Kim
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 17:43, Ken Chien<ken.chien@...<ken.chien%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> > Kim,
> >
> > If you're programming in Java, take a look at Mockito (
> http://mockito.org/).
> > For info on mock objects in general, take a look at
> > http://www.mockobjects.com/
> >
> > Regards,
> > Ken Chien
> > http://geekyninja.blogspot.com
> > http://twitter.com/kenrickchien
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Kim Gräsman <kim.grasman@...<kim.grasman%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 02:57, Josue Barbosa dos
> >> Santos<josuesantos@... <josuesantos%40gmail.com> <josuesantos%
> 40gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> > Presentation of Rainsberger.
> >> > http://www.infoq.com/presentations/integration-tests-scam
> >>
> >> I like the presentation. It adds more meat to the slogan, which I
> >> found pretty hard to understand before seeing this.
> >>
> >> I'm still struggling with the mock setup, though. As I understand it,
> >> for every collaboration with an interface, I need to configure or
> >> create a mock, and that gets pretty cumbersome.
> >>
> >> I suspect that means the interfaces are badly designed...? Where can I
> >> learn how to do it better?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> - Kim
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>  
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Nat Pryce]

2009/9/11 Kim Gräsman <kim.grasman@...>
>
> I suspect that means the interfaces are badly designed...? Where can I
> learn how to do it better?
>

Steve Freeman and I have written a book that addresses this topic.  It
will be out in November.  The website will be at
http://growing-object-oriented-software.com/.  At the moment there's
only a picture of the cover and link to the Amazon preorder page.

For the moment there's an old version of the content at
http://www.mockobjects.com/book.

--Nat



--
http://www.natpryce.com

[Kim Gräsman-2]

Nat & Josue,

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 21:23, Nat Pryce<nat.pryce@...> wrote:

> 2009/9/11 Kim Gräsman <kim.grasman@...>
>>
>> I suspect that means the interfaces are badly designed...? Where can I
>> learn how to do it better?
>>
>
> Steve Freeman and I have written a book that addresses this topic.  It
> will be out in November.  The website will be at
> http://growing-object-oriented-software.com/.  At the moment there's
> only a picture of the cover and link to the Amazon preorder page.

Thanks -- I've been following the mailing list discussions, but I
haven't had time to track the actual content much. It looks promising!

- Kim

[James Carr]

When I try to go to mockobjects.com, I get some crazy alert with a backtrace
on it, and no content gets displayed.

Thanks,
James

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Nat Pryce <nat.pryce@...> wrote:

>
>
> 2009/9/11 Kim Gräsman <kim.grasman@... <kim.grasman%40gmail.com>>
>
> >
> > I suspect that means the interfaces are badly designed...? Where can I
> > learn how to do it better?
> >
>
> Steve Freeman and I have written a book that addresses this topic. It
> will be out in November. The website will be at
> http://growing-object-oriented-software.com/. At the moment there's
> only a picture of the cover and link to the Amazon preorder page.
>
> For the moment there's an old version of the content at
> http://www.mockobjects.com/book.
>
> --Nat
>
> --
> http://www.natpryce.com
>  
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[James Carr]

Nevermind... I forgot I was running a nightly snapshot checkout of Firefox.
Silly me. ;)

Thanks,
James

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 1:31 PM, James Carr <james.r.carr@...> wrote:

> When I try to go to mockobjects.com, I get some crazy alert with a
> backtrace on it, and no content gets displayed.
>
> Thanks,
> James
>
> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Nat Pryce <nat.pryce@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2009/9/11 Kim Gräsman <kim.grasman@... <kim.grasman%40gmail.com>>
>>
>> >
>> > I suspect that means the interfaces are badly designed...? Where can I
>> > learn how to do it better?
>> >
>>
>> Steve Freeman and I have written a book that addresses this topic. It
>> will be out in November. The website will be at
>> http://growing-object-oriented-software.com/. At the moment there's
>> only a picture of the cover and link to the Amazon preorder page.
>>
>> For the moment there's an old version of the content at
>> http://www.mockobjects.com/book.
>>
>> --Nat
>>
>> --
>> http://www.natpryce.com
>>  
>>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Lior Friedman]

 

During this excellent session Rainsberger mentioned that:

What takes time(1-2 years) and experience to master. Is learning to
understand what the "tests are telling you".

 

He then proceed to mention two specific types of lessons he has learnt:

1)      If setting up the mocks takes too much effort since there just too
many collaborators, then it's probably because your Class under Test is
doing too much and in violation of the "single Responsibility Principle", so
it might be time to "sprout" a new class.

2)      If mock setup takes too much effort to setup cause you need to setup
mocks that returns mocks that returns mocks., then it's probable that you
have a "layering" problem i.e. violating the Demeter law, so it might be
time to restructure your layers.

Just a couple of days ago I encountered another one of this hard lessons:

1)      If setup takes too much effort cause you need to fake parts of the
class under test, then it's probably (again) because your class under Test
is doing too much and in violation of the "single Responsibility Principle",
so it might be time to "sprout" a new class.

 

 

So the question is:

What other hard learnt lessons have people gathered over the years?

Maybe if we can collect some of those we might be able to reduce the
learning curve.

 

Lior Friedman
Blog  - http://imistaken.blogspot.com <http://imistaken.blogspot.com/>

 

 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Steve Freeman-4]

On 11 Sep 2009, at 16:52, Kim Gräsman wrote:
> Thanks -- I'm mostly in C++ and sometimes .NET, I guess I was looking
> for more general OO design reading. Currently trying to get through
> "Object Design: Roles, Responsibilities and Collaborations", but not
> really seeing the light.

Spend some quality time with that book. Then a lot of other ideas will  
make more sense.

S.


Steve Freeman
http://www.mockobjects.com

Winner of the Agile Alliance Gordon Pask award 2006

[franz see]

Btw, although some of the things Rainsberger mentioned made sense, they
should not be treated as dogmas. Just like he said, my BS-meter was off the
charts during his whole presentation, just because he was speaking in terms
of absolute.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 5:36 AM, Steve Freeman <smgfreeman@...> wrote:

>
>
> On 11 Sep 2009, at 16:52, Kim Gräsman wrote:
> > Thanks -- I'm mostly in C++ and sometimes .NET, I guess I was looking
> > for more general OO design reading. Currently trying to get through
> > "Object Design: Roles, Responsibilities and Collaborations", but not
> > really seeing the light.
>
> Spend some quality time with that book. Then a lot of other ideas will
> make more sense.
>
> S.
>
> Steve Freeman
> http://www.mockobjects.com
>
> Winner of the Agile Alliance Gordon Pask award 2006
>
>  
>

--
Franz Allan Valencia See | Java Software Engineer
franz.see@...
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/franzsee
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/franz_see


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Kim Gräsman-2]

Steve,

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 22:36, Steve Freeman <smgfreeman@...> wrote:
> On 11 Sep 2009, at 16:52, Kim Gräsman wrote:
>> Thanks -- I'm mostly in C++ and sometimes .NET, I guess I was looking
>> for more general OO design reading. Currently trying to get through
>> "Object Design: Roles, Responsibilities and Collaborations", but not
>> really seeing the light.
>
> Spend some quality time with that book. Then a lot of other ideas will
> make more sense.

Thanks, I should probably re-read it. I had high expectations, but
ultimately didn't find it very useful. Likely a problem with the
reader and not the publication :)

Cheers,
- Kim

[Steve Freeman-4]

I went to the relevant session at Agile 2009 and a couple of thoughts struck me:
- that many of the horror stories that people told from the floor were revealing problems with the organisation, the tests were doing exactly what they were supposed to.
- that sophisticated teams, like Arlo's, can do this because they know how to compensate for whatever might be missed.

S.

On 11 Nov 2009, at 02:02, Franz Allan Valencia See wrote:
> Btw, although some of the things Rainsberger mentioned made sense, they
> should not be treated as dogmas. Just like he said, my BS-meter was off the
> charts during his whole presentation, just because he was speaking in terms
> of absolute.


Steve Freeman
http://www.mockobjects.com
http://www.growing-object-oriented-software.com

Winner of the Agile Alliance Gordon Pask award 2006

[isaiahperumalla]

> Thanks, I should probably re-read it. I had high expectations, but
> ultimately didn't find it very useful.

First time i read this book several years ago, i found it a bit dry and
didnt understand what all the fuss was about. After hearing comments
<http://news.squeak.org/2007/02/06/oo-programmers-fall-into-two-categori\
es-smalltalkers-and-those-who-dont-get-it/>  like "  â€œOO
programmers fall into two categories: Smalltalkers and those who
don’t get it.”  I used a lot of my spare time learning
smalltalk  <http://www.pharo-project.org/home>  and reading
http://www.wirfs-brock.com/Resources.html,
http://www.macqueen.us/stIndex.html. I have since re-read/studied  
"Object Design: Roles, Responsibilities and Collaborations" couple of
times and I appreciate it alot more, and learnt a whole bunch more. That
was my personal journey to 're-learning' OO concepts,  I would definetly
encourage to re-read/study  it, i'm sure if I read it again there would
be something more i would learn.

I then began to understand other ideas like using mock objects, Tdd, to
guide the design of OO


--- In testdrivendevelopment@..., Kim Gr�sman
<kim.grasman@...> wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 22:36, Steve Freeman smgfreeman@... wrote:
> > On 11 Sep 2009, at 16:52, Kim Gr�sman wrote:
> >> Thanks -- I'm mostly in C++ and sometimes .NET, I guess I was
looking
> >> for more general OO design reading. Currently trying to get through
> >> "Object Design: Roles, Responsibilities and Collaborations", but
not
> >> really seeing the light.
> >
> > Spend some quality time with that book. Then a lot of other ideas
will
> > make more sense.
>
> Thanks, I should probably re-read it. I had high expectations, but
> ultimately didn't find it very useful. Likely a problem with the
> reader and not the publication :)
>
> Cheers,
> - Kim
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]