Islam is ideology not religion

[Matthias Schmidt-6]

Look this:

<http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/02/22/world/asia/1194838044017/
class-dismissed-in-swat-valley.html>

Islam is more than dangerous it's threat for freedom of mankind.

I'm so sad

Matthias



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[Anthony Taylor-2]

Matthias Schmidt wrote:
> Look this:
>
> <http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/02/22/world/asia/1194838044017/
> class-dismissed-in-swat-valley.html>
>
> Islam is more than dangerous it's threat for freedom of mankind.
>

It completely depends on your interpretation

of Islam, Christianity, Judaism

or any other religion

> I'm so sad

Don't be! Life has survied this long ;)

We are all products of a long list of survivors
we should be proud about it.

There is reason for hope.

Every cloud has it's silver lining

Always look at the bright side of life

Cheers,

Ant

ps.

Don't worry be happy!!!

> Matthias
>
>
>
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[Matthias Schmidt-6]

Am/On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 22:01:51 +0900 schrieb/wrote Anthony Taylor:
>Matthias Schmidt wrote:
>> Look this:
>>
<http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/02/22/world/asia/1194838044017/
class-dismissed-in-swat-valley.html>
>>
>> Islam is more than dangerous it's threat for freedom of mankind.
>>
>
>It completely depends on your interpretation
>
>of Islam, Christianity, Judaism

personally I think they are all ideologies.
The difference between religion and ideology is imho anyway minor.

-  Judaism never did mission and left other people in peace (in return
they were not left in peace)

-  Christianity went through the 30 year war and enlightenment which
resulted in a separation of politics and religion. I'm aware that some
people would like to turn that wheel back and hopefully they won't succeed.

- Islam became a problem for the world - at least those who take the
Koran by the letter.
That results in things we've seen in NY or Spain and also such crimes
which are shown in that video.

>or any other religion

I can't say much about Hinduism or better to say Brahmamsim, I know a
bit about Buddhism and one could discuss, if this is a religion at all
or just a life philosophy.
I'm not aware of any war caused by either of these in opposite to
Christianity and Islam.

>
>> I'm so sad
>
>Don't be! Life has survied this long ;)

I'm sad, because these girls there are suffering, threatened or even killed.
I'm sad, because these kids get stolen their education, their future and
their lives
I'm sad, because these guys would like to kill everybody, who doesn't
obey their ideology of Islam

>
>We are all products of a long list of survivors
>we should be proud about it.

I'm not proud on our ancestors or these survivors.
I'm not proud German or human history.
I'm not proud on the environmental pollution we are causing (including me).

actually I don't see any reason for being proud at all or for
establishing pride.

>
>There is reason for hope.

of course there is always hope.
I think one has to talk clearly about such things instead of keeping shut up.
Being silent doesn't stop it, it will just provoke to continue with such
dehumanizing behaviour.
Being silent doesn't help, it will just make the live of these girls
more miserable.
Being silent doesn't give these kids a livable future, but the world
more terrorists.

sad, neither proud nor silent,
Matthias

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[Alexander Heintz]

Am 14.03.2009 um 14:59 schrieb Matthias Schmidt:

> - Islam became a problem for the world - at least those who take the
> Koran by the letter.

And this dear Matthias is the most dangerous misunderstanding!

The Quran does contain nothing that forced the rules upon people that  
zealots like the Taliban enforce, instead it is more of a life guide  
and a pretty tolerant document at that.

What we now call "fundamental Islam" is a pretty new phenomenon, in  
the leas 1300 years, Islam was far more peaceful than for example the  
catholic church with its doctrine of "kill them all and let god sort  
them out" as lived in south and middle america, and also in many other  
parts of the world.

Thought the "fundamentalists" lim that the Quran is closed to  
interpretation by mere humans, this is exactly what they do!

For example, nowhere does it say in the Quran that you are not allowed  
to drink ("consume in moderation" is the literal translation) and also  
nowhere does it say that women need to cover up completely, they shall  
not overtly publicly display their goodies" (could not remember the  
actual wording, made the last word up) etc. etc. For example the rule  
to not eat pork (which btw. they share with Judaism) was at the time a  
pretty good idea, as most pork in these arm countries were infected  
with trichinosis.w

The problem is, that Islam has failed to come to terms with the fact  
that its now not 570 AD anymore and that values and circumstances may  
have changed, but the so called "fundamentals" prevent an adaptation  
to modern requirements.

I read the thing a few years ago while I lived in Cairo and it makes  
or a far more interesting reading than the bible, which is in arts a  
piece of literature that could well have been written as a Tarantina  
Screenplay. The Quran - though it may be a bit confusing, because  
roughly a 1000 years ago someone had the bright idea to sort the sures  
(chapters) according to their length - is far more of a life guide  
designed to ensure a peaceful and prospering society.

Nowhere does it explicitly condone things like the holy war "jihad"  
which is a totally illogic and unfunded concept, and it explicitly  
talks about peaceful coexistence with judaism (people of the book).

Also it is by now understood by most scholars, that Islam is a spin  
off of christianity and it is known for example that the most holy  
monument of Islam, the Kaaba in Mecca was actually a christian church  
and it still holds a relief of virgin mary which is much cherished.

Also Islam does know of jesus, abraham, and most of the old testament,  
only in their view jesus is just an ordinary prophet.

Anyway, I digress.

In the end it is not a question of faith, ideology or anything, it is  
about one thing only : POWER!

And only for those "in charge". Insofar the ruling Islam elite is not  
too different from the ruling political elite in other countries,  
their ultimate goal is basically the same.

As always, its the little people who get ground up in between the  
wheels of the power seekers, but this has been a fact of life since  
the first cave man clobbered his neighbour to steal his wife.

Open a newspaper and read it from front to back and you know what I  
mean.

Civilisation is a very thin and fragile veneer over the true human  
nature!

Live with it as best you can, there is no way you are going to change  
anything whatsoever!

My words for the weekend.


Alex
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[Anthony Taylor-2]

>
> As always, its the little people who get ground up in between the wheels of the power seekers,

what do you mean by the  'little people'? do you mean the dwarfs,
leprechauns or the fairy's?

> but this has been a fact of life since the first cave man clobbered his neighbour to steal his wife.

That's where men need to learn to share, it's much more fun for him, his
  wife and everybody else!

Oh well the price you have to pay.


4 enlightenment.....

lol..





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[Alexander Heintz]

Oh..

Ant

Always in it for a serious contribution :-)

>> As always, its the little people who get ground up in between the  
>> wheels of the power seekers,
>
> what do you mean by the  'little people'? do you mean the dwarfs,  
> leprechauns or the fairy's?

What's it to you?
Apart form your haircut you ain't got too much in common with elves or  
dwarfs, orcs though...

>> but this has been a fact of life since the first cave man clobbered  
>> his neighbour to steal his wife.
>
> That's where men need to learn to share, it's much more fun for him,  
> his  wife and everybody else!

Well, it would surely lead to a much safer place, but alas its against  
most men's brain wiring.

> Oh well the price you have to pay.

If it's for the good of mankind...
:-)

> 4 enlightenment.....
>
> lol..

so did I!


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[Anthony Taylor-2]

Alexander Heintz wrote:
> Oh..
>
> Ant
>
> Always in it for a serious contribution :-)

You have come to expect that from me surely. I'm such a serious sort of
fellow. All the alliteration, not to mention the assonance.

> What's it to you?
> Apart form your haircut you ain't got too much in common with elves or
> dwarfs, orcs though...

just because i'm 185cm tall doesn't mena i can't make short jokes

>
>>> but this has been a fact of life since the first cave man clobbered
>>> his neighbour to steal his wife.
>>
>> That's where men need to learn to share, it's much more fun for him,
>> his  wife and everybody else!
>
> Well, it would surely lead to a much safer place, but alas its against
> most men's brain wiring.

I believe it has much more do with the woman's brain.

most of the men that i have spoken to will

'take what they can get'

to paraphrase

janis joplin

>
>> Oh well the price you have to pay.
>
> If it's for the good of mankind...
> :-)

to quote janis again

'freedom's just another word
for nothing left to lose'


>
>> 4 enlightenment.....
>>
>> lol..
>
> so did I!

I like u and ur sense of humour

alex (hey we met the queen together!)

u r always welcome here
free of charge


take that as a threat or a promise

all the best

cheers

ant
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[Anthony Taylor-2]

Anthony Taylor wrote:
> Alexander Heintz wrote:
>> Oh..
>>
>> Ant
>>
>> Always in it for a serious contribution :-)

life is farrr tooo shorrrt to be taken serrrriouussssly

sorrrrryy i'mm slurrrrrring my worrrrrrrdss

parlty coz i'm drunk partly coz i'm scotz irizh

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[Matthias Schmidt-6]

Alex,

sorry, but I can't follow you at all.

Am/On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:40:31 +0100 schrieb/wrote Alexander Heintz:

>Am 14.03.2009 um 14:59 schrieb Matthias Schmidt:
>
>> - Islam became a problem for the world - at least those who take the
>> Koran by the letter.
>
>And this dear Matthias is the most dangerous misunderstanding!
>
>The Quran does contain nothing that forced the rules upon people that
>zealots like the Taliban enforce, instead it is more of a life guide
>and a pretty tolerant document at that.

this is a complete misunderstanding on your side.
Islam is called in religious science a law religion, same as Judaism.
This means either you follow the law or you don't, but then you're out.
Christian religion has law and gospel (OT & NT), which makes a certain
difference.
But I won't go into this now.

>
>What we now call "fundamental Islam" is a pretty new phenomenon,

this is again wrong. Fundamentalism is the understanding of the dogmatic
works underlying an ideology/religion by the word. It is the original
understanding, not a new thing at all. More a way of going back to the
roots. Certain Christian sects were thrown out of Europe, because their
understanding was not compatible anymore in the time of enlightenment.
The descendants of those guys are now presenting the majority of
Christian fundamentalists in the so called Bible belt.

Christian Fundamentalistic understanding was the standard in the middle ages.

> in
>the leas 1300 years, Islam was far more peaceful than for example the
>catholic church with its doctrine of "kill them all and let god sort
>them out" as lived in south and middle america, and also in many other
>parts of the world.

Besides the bloodshed in nowadays Afghanistan, Pakistan and North-India.
Not to forget about the occupation of half Spain.
They were just active in different areas then then the murders in the
name of the pope.
Main difference, Islam never really stopped enforcing with weapons their
believe. Christians did after the trauma of the 30 years lasting war.
Descard wrote his first thesis (about doubt) in a pub after a bloody
battle, that was the beginning of enlightenment in Europe.

>
>Thought the "fundamentalists" lim that the Quran is closed to
>interpretation by mere humans, this is exactly what they do!

what you want to tell us with that?

>
>For example, nowhere does it say in the Quran that you are not allowed
>to drink ("consume in moderation" is the literal translation) and also
>nowhere does it say that women need to cover up completely, they shall
>not overtly publicly display their goodies" (could not remember the
>actual wording, made the last word up) etc. etc. For example the rule
>to not eat pork (which btw. they share with Judaism) was at the time a
>pretty good idea, as most pork in these arm countries were infected
>with trichinosis.w
>
>The problem is, that Islam has failed to come to terms with the fact
>that its now not 570 AD anymore and that values and circumstances may
>have changed, but the so called "fundamentals" prevent an adaptation
>to modern requirements.
>
>I read the thing a few years ago while I lived in Cairo and it makes

here are some quotations from the quran, which you might have missed,
when you read it:

"Do not take the unbelievers for friends" (4:144).
"Do not be close friends with any other than your own people" (3:117)
"When you meet unbelievers, behead them until you have made much
slaughter among them" (47:4).
"The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and
make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a
hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not
escape the fire, suffering constantly." (Surah 5:33)
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine
them and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush." (Surah 9:5)
"Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth
because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah
and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in
the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant
better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for
that is the supreme triumph." (Surah 9:111)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly
with them." (Surah 9:121)
"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal
rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the
unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)


>or a far more interesting reading than the bible, which is in arts a
>piece of literature that could well have been written as a Tarantina
>Screenplay.

I don't know, how much of the bible you read.
The bible contains a lot of different kinds of literature and this makes
it not only interesting for historians. The oldest piece is the song of
miriam (Ex15).
You will find history, poems and a lot more things.
You will also find different philosophies there (Paulus are John are
very different).
but of course parts of the bible served as justification for the
crusades or forced proselytization of America and other parts of the world.

>The Quran - though it may be a bit confusing, because
>roughly a 1000 years ago someone had the bright idea to sort the sures
>(chapters) according to their length - is far more of a life guide
>designed to ensure a peaceful and prospering society.

that's joke, but a bad one :(

>
>Nowhere does it explicitly condone things like the holy war "jihad"
>which is a totally illogic and unfunded concept, and it explicitly
>talks about peaceful coexistence with judaism (people of the book).

see quotations up.

>
>Also it is by now understood by most scholars, that Islam is a spin
>off of christianity

no it is not. Where did you got that from.
One could say it is in a way a spin off from Judaism, but the islamic
guys wouldn't agree.

>and it is known for example that the most holy
>monument of Islam, the Kaaba in Mecca was actually a christian church
>and it still holds a relief of virgin mary which is much cherished.

this is again wrong.
It was never a church. It was a holy place for the god Hubal until
Mohammed conquered Mekka.

>
>Also Islam does know of jesus, abraham, and most of the old testament,
>only in their view jesus is just an ordinary prophet.

they are all prophets. acc. the quran.

>
>Anyway, I digress.
>
>In the end it is not a question of faith, ideology or anything, it is
>about one thing only : POWER!

this is oversimplified, sorry.

>
>And only for those "in charge". Insofar the ruling Islam elite is not
>too different from the ruling political elite in other countries,
>their ultimate goal is basically the same.

which one?

>
>As always, its the little people who get ground up in between the
>wheels of the power seekers, but this has been a fact of life since
>the first cave man clobbered his neighbour to steal his wife.

again oversimplified. You need people to rage major wars.
You need also people to crash the twins or blow up trains in Spain.
These terrorists were all well educated and not stupid on one side on
the other side as poorer people get as more open they are for extreme
ideologies.
Remember, in case you blow yourself up in the name of Allah you end up
with a dozens of virgins in paradise, nice isn't it, but only as long as
you beliefe it.
What if there is no paradise with virgins and stuff like that - oh bad luck.

>
>Open a newspaper and read it from front to back and you know what I
>mean.
>
>Civilisation is a very thin and fragile veneer over the true human
>nature!

Please then explain me, what is the true human nature.

To my understanding it was always the quest for living in happiness and peace.

Such books like the quran or Mein Kampf are targeting to poison the mind
of people.

>
>Live with it as best you can, there is no way you are going to change
>anything whatsoever!
>

me alone won't change anything, the same was valid for Georg Elser ....

Only society can do something. Putting the head in the sand will result
in victory of the extreme and end of freedom.

best,
Matthias


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[Paul Chernoff]

Timothy McVeigh.

Not a muslim.

Paul Chernoff
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[Alexander Heintz]

> sorry, but I can't follow you at all.

Its not that difficult though...

>> Am 14.03.2009 um 14:59 schrieb Matthias Schmidt:
>>
>>> - Islam became a problem for the world - at least those who take the
>>> Koran by the letter.
>>
>> And this dear Matthias is the most dangerous misunderstanding!
>>
>> The Quran does contain nothing that forced the rules upon people that
>> zealots like the Taliban enforce, instead it is more of a life guide
>> and a pretty tolerant document at that.
>
> this is a complete misunderstanding on your side.
> Islam is called in religious science a law religion, same as Judaism.
> This means either you follow the law or you don't, but then you're  
> out.
> Christian religion has law and gospel (OT & NT), which makes a certain
> difference.
> But I won't go into this now.

It establishes rules, as does the christian church or most others for  
that matter...

>> What we now call "fundamental Islam" is a pretty new phenomenon,
>
> this is again wrong. Fundamentalism is the understanding of the  
> dogmatic
> works underlying an ideology/religion by the word. It is the original
> understanding, not a new thing at all. More a way of going back to the
> roots. Certain Christian sects were thrown out of Europe, because  
> their
> understanding was not compatible anymore in the time of enlightenment.
> The descendants of those guys are now presenting the majority of
> Christian fundamentalists in the so called Bible belt.
>
> Christian Fundamentalistic understanding was the standard in the  
> middle ages.

I explicitly said "What we NOW call "fundamental Islam"" by wich I  
mean people like the hate preachers, the Taliban and Osama and co.

>> in
>> the leas 1300 years, Islam was far more peaceful than for example the
>> catholic church with its doctrine of "kill them all and let god sort
>> them out" as lived in south and middle america, and also in many  
>> other
>> parts of the world.
>
> Besides the bloodshed in nowadays Afghanistan, Pakistan and North-
> India.
> Not to forget about the occupation of half Spain.
> They were just active in different areas then then the murders in the
> name of the pope.
> Main difference, Islam never really stopped enforcing with weapons  
> their
> believe. Christians did after the trauma of the 30 years lasting war.
> Descard wrote his first thesis (about doubt) in a pub after a bloody
> battle, that was the beginning of enlightenment in Europe.

The occupation of parts of europe under the maures was far more  
peaceful than any conquest in the name of christianity, at least they  
never attempted large scale genocide like the spanish did with the  
indegenous people of many places they conquered.

>> Thought the "fundamentalists" lim that the Quran is closed to
>> interpretation by mere humans, this is exactly what they do!
>
> what you want to tell us with that?

SOrry, its my new keyboard:

The fundamentalist preachers claim that the Quran is not to be  
interpreted but to be taken for word value, as mere mortals are not  
allowed or able to interpret what muhammad meant in these words.

>> For example, nowhere does it say in the Quran that you are not  
>> allowed
>> to drink ("consume in moderation" is the literal translation) and  
>> also
>> nowhere does it say that women need to cover up completely, they  
>> shall
>> not overtly publicly display their goodies" (could not remember the
>> actual wording, made the last word up) etc. etc. For example the rule
>> to not eat pork (which btw. they share with Judaism) was at the  
>> time a
>> pretty good idea, as most pork in these arm countries were infected
>> with trichinosis.w
>>
>> The problem is, that Islam has failed to come to terms with the fact
>> that its now not 570 AD anymore and that values and circumstances may
>> have changed, but the so called "fundamentals" prevent an adaptation
>> to modern requirements.
>>
>> I read the thing a few years ago while I lived in Cairo and it makes
>
> here are some quotations from the quran, which you might have missed,
> when you read it:

Well, interestingly there is quite a dissent on the translation level,  
even into modern arabic.
Sure some of it is not too peaceful but in many parts it has been  
edited in the hundreds of years following Mohammed.
I learned arabic back in 84 and it is an incredibly complex language  
with a plethora of opportunities for misunderstanding and  
mistranslation, and that was modern written arabic!

> "Do not take the unbelievers for friends" (4:144).
> "Do not be close friends with any other than your own people" (3:117)
> "When you meet unbelievers, behead them until you have made much
> slaughter among them" (47:4).
> "The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet  
> and
> make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut  
> off a
> hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will  
> not
> escape the fire, suffering constantly." (Surah 5:33)
> "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine
> them and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush." (Surah 9:5)
> "Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth
> because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of  
> Allah
> and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him  
> in
> the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant
> better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made,  
> for
> that is the supreme triumph." (Surah 9:111)
> "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly
> with them." (Surah 9:121)
> "Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal
> rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
> "Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the
> unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

Apart from the fact, that you got some of the numbering wrong, you  
certainly picked a few juicy ones, I will admit that.
Also you translations are inaccurate!

If you feel more confortable with german, look up some of your quotes  
here:

http://www.theology.de/schriften/koran/index.php

just one example:

You quote:

> "When you meet unbelievers, behead them until you have made much
> slaughter among them" (47:4).

This is the translation I find which sheds a totally different light  
on the text:

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their  
necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond  
firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or  
ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded):  
but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted  
retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to  
test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of  
Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

This sounds much less bloodthirsty does it not? It even allows for  
mercy and nowhere does it say you need to slaughter all of them! In  
the contrary it follows most rules laid don in modern warfare rulings  
like the Haager Landkriegsordnung of 1907.

http://www.mysticletters.com/quran-viewer/arabic-yusuf-ali/47.php

You see you are using he same technique the hate prachers are using,  
you uote out of context!

>> or a far more interesting reading than the bible, which is in arts a
>> piece of literature that could well have been written as a Tarantina
>> Screenplay.
>
> I don't know, how much of the bible you read.
> The bible contains a lot of different kinds of literature and this  
> makes
> it not only interesting for historians. The oldest piece is the song  
> of
> miriam (Ex15).
> You will find history, poems and a lot more things.
> You will also find different philosophies there (Paulus are John are
> very different).
> but of course parts of the bible served as justification for the
> crusades or forced proselytization of America and other parts of the  
> world.

Sure there is lots of interesting and even enlighting stuff in there  
(been a while since I read it, my favourite publisher nowadays is  
O'Reilly) things like sodomy, incest, brother murder, etc. etc.

>> The Quran - though it may be a bit confusing, because
>> roughly a 1000 years ago someone had the bright idea to sort the  
>> sures
>> (chapters) according to their length - is far more of a life guide
>> designed to ensure a peaceful and prospering society.
>
> that's joke, but a bad one :(

Actually not, many a part is just advice for living

>> Nowhere does it explicitly condone things like the holy war "jihad"
>> which is a totally illogic and unfunded concept, and it explicitly
>> talks about peaceful coexistence with judaism (people of the book).
>
> see quotations up.

Even in the ones you quoted there is nothing that says anything abut a  
holy war

>> Also it is by now understood by most scholars, that Islam is a spin
>> off of christianity
>
> no it is not. Where did you got that from.
> One could say it is in a way a spin off from Judaism, but the islamic
> guys wouldn't agree.

Ok, so its a spin off of judaism...

>> and it is known for example that the most holy
>> monument of Islam, the Kaaba in Mecca was actually a christian church
>> and it still holds a relief of virgin mary which is much cherished.
>
> this is again wrong.
> It was never a church. It was a holy place for the god Hubal until
> Mohammed conquered Mekka.

Th scholars are not too certain of the acual facts here, as the object  
of interest is not open for inspection!

>> Also Islam does know of jesus, abraham, and most of the old  
>> testament,
>> only in their view jesus is just an ordinary prophet.
>
> they are all prophets. acc. the quran.
>
>>
>> Anyway, I digress.
>>
>> In the end it is not a question of faith, ideology or anything, it is
>> about one thing only : POWER!
>
> this is oversimplified, sorry.

I believe it is this simple!

>> And only for those "in charge". Insofar the ruling Islam elite is not
>> too different from the ruling political elite in other countries,
>> their ultimate goal is basically the same.
>
> which one?

to gain POWER!

>> As always, its the little people who get ground up in between the
>> wheels of the power seekers, but this has been a fact of life since
>> the first cave man clobbered his neighbour to steal his wife.
>
> again oversimplified. You need people to rage major wars.
> You need also people to crash the twins or blow up trains in Spain.
> These terrorists were all well educated and not stupid on one side on
> the other side as poorer people get as more open they are for extreme
> ideologies.
> Remember, in case you blow yourself up in the name of Allah you end up
> with a dozens of virgins in paradise, nice isn't it, but only as  
> long as
> you beliefe it.
> What if there is no paradise with virgins and stuff like that - oh  
> bad luck.

Well again a translation problem. As in arabic writing you do not  
write most vowels (they CAN be added above the letters as kind of  
accent characters), the translation is unclear of what it actually  
means. Cant find the reference right now, its satruday after all but  
if you insist I will check my sources.

>>
>> Open a newspaper and read it from front to back and you know what I
>> mean.
>>
>> Civilisation is a very thin and fragile veneer over the true human
>> nature!
>
> Please then explain me, what is the true human nature.

Survival of the fittest, pure egoism and concentration of interest and  
empathy only on the own breed, just like most animals around us. What  
leads you to think we are differen?
Well we are insofar as Man is the only creature on this planet that  
does know deliberate cruelty o others of the same species!

> To my understanding it was always the quest for living in happiness  
> and peace.

Yep, for yourself and your on breed, all others are enemies!

> Such books like the quran or Mein Kampf are targeting to poison the  
> mind
> of people.

Wow!
Careful here, to put the Quran in relation with Mein Kampf is going  
well beyond any accepteable line, I will assume you wrote this without  
much consideration....!

>> Live with it as best you can, there is no way you are going to change
>> anything whatsoever!
>>
>
> me alone won't change anything, the same was valid for Georg  
> Elser ....

Well, he screwed up did he not? But I get your point. Nevertheless a  
whole religion followed by million of people is not the same thing as  
a single dictator.

> Only society can do something. Putting the head in the sand will  
> result
> in victory of the extreme and end of freedom.

You are right on this one, and I never said to put the head into the  
sand but I will not fight windmills just to claim martyrdom  
afterwards. Thats just plan idiotic!

OK its Saturday evening, I'm off

Cheers and all the best

Alex
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[Anthony Taylor-2]

wooooaaaah so heaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvy alex

keep it up

it is not a matter or belief but of tolerance

i call it a tolerationship,

a portmanteua, (look it up u ignorants bastardos)


i believe

in poetry


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[Alexander Heintz]

> Alexander Heintz wrote:
>> Oh..
>> Ant
>> Always in it for a serious contribution :-)
>
> You have come to expect that from me surely. I'm such a serious sort  
> of fellow. All the alliteration, not to mention the assonance.

I would have been disappointed at anything less

>> What's it to you?
>> Apart form your haircut you ain't got too much in common with elves  
>> or dwarfs, orcs though...
>
> just because i'm 185cm tall doesn't mena i can't make short jokes

and tiny ones :-)

>>>> but this has been a fact of life since the first cave man  
>>>> clobbered his neighbour to steal his wife.
>>>
>>> That's where men need to learn to share, it's much more fun for  
>>> him, his  wife and everybody else!
>> Well, it would surely lead to a much safer place, but alas its  
>> against most men's brain wiring.
>
> I believe it has much more do with the woman's brain.
>
> most of the men that i have spoken to will
>
> 'take what they can get'
>
> to paraphrase
>
> janis joplin

Well, I am a married man what am I allowed to say?

But you simply have to love the fact that we moved from discussing the  
Quran to quoting Janice Joplin in just 4-5 posts :-)
Proves that not all is lost yet :-)

>>> Oh well the price you have to pay.
>> If it's for the good of mankind...
>> :-)
>
> to quote janis again
>
> 'freedom's just another word
> for nothing left to lose'

Good girl, just re-listened to her work a few days ago...

>>> 4 enlightenment.....
>>>
>>> lol..
>> so did I!
>
> I like u and ur sense of humour

You do forget I am a German, humour has been bred out of our race.
Which leads to quite a few problems I have in dealing with my fellow  
citizens over here...

There i my favourite quote from Groucho Marx:
"I have a passionate hobby: I collect the worlds thinnest books!  
Already got 3 of them: 'Italian hero sagas', 'The miracles of british  
cuisine' and '1000 years of german humour'"
Quran to Janice to Groucho
Great!

> alex (hey we met the queen together!)

Yep, vancouver...
Drinking with Brendan, smoking outside in pouring rain and generally  
lots of fun.
Will allwas be remembered as one of the best summits I ever attended.
Man, I do miss summits!

> u r always welcome here
> free of charge

I would love to come, but my wifehates flying and 24 hours in a plane  
is her concept of hell on earth.
So...
I will look up quantas schedules right away!

> take that as a threat or a promise

I take this as a promise that there will be a serious threat to my  
liver should I come by :-)
And I won't call you Bruce, not even after 20 Fosters or whatever it  
is you drink down there nowadays.

> all the best


Same to you,

Alex
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[Alexander Heintz]

> wooooaaaah so heaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvy alex
>
> keep it up

I will :-)
believe it or not, I love these discussions, in person they are even  
better!
A clash of brains or whatever is left of them after 4 glasses of  
Talisker.

> it is not a matter or belief but of tolerance
> i call it a tolerationship,

I dig that one

> a portmanteua, (look it up u ignorants bastardos)

Apart from your spelling, what the f..k does a coathanger have to do  
here?
Forget not, french is my mothers tongue...

> i believe
>
> in poetry

I believe in music, its poetry with sounds, multimedia poetry so to say.

>
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[Matthias Schmidt-6]

Am/On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 04:01:47 +0900 schrieb/wrote Anthony Taylor:

>wooooaaaah so heaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvy alex
>
>keep it up
>
>it is not a matter or belief but of tolerance

I have no tolerance for people, who are blowing up schools, because
girls are taught there neither do I have tolerance for people who
threaten little girls and their teachers with death, if they go to school.
This is all done in the name of Islam and that mind-set is spreading in
these areas in question.

cheers,
Matthias

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[Matthias Schmidt-6]

Am/On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 19:53:08 +0100 schrieb/wrote Alexander Heintz:

>> sorry, but I can't follow you at all.
>
>Its not that difficult though...

as I already said, no tolerance for people blowing up schools and
killing little girls who want to go to school.

The mind set of a lot of people being muslim is, that a girl has to hide
herself entirely, after she had her first menstruation and that she
should get married as soon as possible, have children, obey the husband
and not go to school. If a woman testifies in front of court, it has
only half the weight of that, what a man says. This is daily life in a
lot of muslim countries and not restricted to people we call extremists,
like the Taliban, or others, who try to terrorize the rest of the world.

>
>>> Am 14.03.2009 um 14:59 schrieb Matthias Schmidt:
>>>
>>>> - Islam became a problem for the world - at least those who take the
>>>> Koran by the letter.
>>>
>>> And this dear Matthias is the most dangerous misunderstanding!
>>>
>>> The Quran does contain nothing that forced the rules upon people that
>>> zealots like the Taliban enforce, instead it is more of a life guide
>>> and a pretty tolerant document at that.
>>
>> this is a complete misunderstanding on your side.
>> Islam is called in religious science a law religion, same as Judaism.
>> This means either you follow the law or you don't, but then you're
>> out.
>> Christian religion has law and gospel (OT & NT), which makes a certain
>> difference.
>> But I won't go into this now.
>
>It establishes rules, as does the christian church or most others for
>that matter...

you don't really get it. That are rules which are compulsive or binding.
If the sharia is in action and the rules are hurt by someone, he gets
punished, like hacked off the hand, killed by stones or whipped - these
punishments do happen in public. No extremists necessary. Normal thing
in countries, which have the Sharia.

>
>>> What we now call "fundamental Islam" is a pretty new phenomenon,
>>
>> this is again wrong. Fundamentalism is the understanding of the
>> dogmatic
>> works underlying an ideology/religion by the word. It is the original
>> understanding, not a new thing at all. More a way of going back to the
>> roots. Certain Christian sects were thrown out of Europe, because
>> their
>> understanding was not compatible anymore in the time of enlightenment.
>> The descendants of those guys are now presenting the majority of
>> Christian fundamentalists in the so called Bible belt.
>>
>> Christian Fundamentalistic understanding was the standard in the
>> middle ages.
>
>I explicitly said "What we NOW call "fundamental Islam"" by wich I
>mean people like the hate preachers, the Taliban and Osama and co.

the way how Taliban and a lot of other groups do interpret the Quran is
traditional.
It's nothing new.

>
>>> in
>>> the leas 1300 years, Islam was far more peaceful than for example the
>>> catholic church with its doctrine of "kill them all and let god sort
>>> them out" as lived in south and middle america, and also in many
>>> other
>>> parts of the world.
>>
>> Besides the bloodshed in nowadays Afghanistan, Pakistan and North-
>> India.
>> Not to forget about the occupation of half Spain.
>> They were just active in different areas then then the murders in the
>> name of the pope.
>> Main difference, Islam never really stopped enforcing with weapons
>> their
>> believe. Christians did after the trauma of the 30 years lasting war.
>> Descard wrote his first thesis (about doubt) in a pub after a bloody
>> battle, that was the beginning of enlightenment in Europe.
>
>The occupation of parts of europe under the maures was far more
>peaceful than any conquest in the name of christianity, at least they
>never attempted large scale genocide like the spanish did with the
>indegenous people of many places they conquered.

You are right it was a bit more peaceful, but still a lot of people lost
their lives.

The genocide happened on the other end from nowadays Afghanistan down to
Ceylon.
Probably genocide is the wrong term here anyway, mass-murdering would be
more proper.

>
>>> Thought the "fundamentalists" lim that the Quran is closed to
>>> interpretation by mere humans, this is exactly what they do!
>>
>> what you want to tell us with that?
>
>SOrry, its my new keyboard:
>
>The fundamentalist preachers claim that the Quran is not to be
>interpreted but to be taken for word value, as mere mortals are not
>allowed or able to interpret what muhammad meant in these words.

as I said before that's the traditional way to read the Quran, nothing new.
What is new are incidents like 9/11 or blowing up trains in Spain.
They didn't dare or didn't had the possibility to do so before.

To spread Islam and convert unbelievers is a holy duty - you can find
that in that book.

>
>>> For example, nowhere does it say in the Quran that you are not
>>> allowed
>>> to drink ("consume in moderation" is the literal translation) and
>>> also
>>> nowhere does it say that women need to cover up completely, they
>>> shall
>>> not overtly publicly display their goodies" (could not remember the
>>> actual wording, made the last word up) etc. etc. For example the rule
>>> to not eat pork (which btw. they share with Judaism) was at the
>>> time a
>>> pretty good idea, as most pork in these arm countries were infected
>>> with trichinosis.w
>>>
>>> The problem is, that Islam has failed to come to terms with the fact
>>> that its now not 570 AD anymore and that values and circumstances may
>>> have changed, but the so called "fundamentals" prevent an adaptation
>>> to modern requirements.
>>>
>>> I read the thing a few years ago while I lived in Cairo and it makes
>>
>> here are some quotations from the quran, which you might have missed,
>> when you read it:
>
>Well, interestingly there is quite a dissent on the translation level,
>even into modern arabic.
>Sure some of it is not too peaceful but in many parts it has been
>edited in the hundreds of years following Mohammed.
>I learned arabic back in 84 and it is an incredibly complex language
>with a plethora of opportunities for misunderstanding and
>mistranslation, and that was modern written arabic!

I learnt Hebrew and a couple of other languages. I'm quite aware of the
problematic.
These quotations were taken from the internet.

>
>> "Do not take the unbelievers for friends" (4:144).
>> "Do not be close friends with any other than your own people" (3:117)
>> "When you meet unbelievers, behead them until you have made much
>> slaughter among them" (47:4).
>> "The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet
>> and
>> make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut
>> off a
>> hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will
>> not
>> escape the fire, suffering constantly." (Surah 5:33)
>> "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine
>> them and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush." (Surah 9:5)
>> "Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth
>> because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of
>> Allah
>> and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him
>> in
>> the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant
>> better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made,
>> for
>> that is the supreme triumph." (Surah 9:111)
>> "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly
>> with them." (Surah 9:121)
>> "Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal
>> rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
>> "Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the
>> unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)
>
>Apart from the fact, that you got some of the numbering wrong, you
>certainly picked a few juicy ones, I will admit that.
>Also you translations are inaccurate!
>
>If you feel more confortable with german, look up some of your quotes
>here:
>
>http://www.theology.de/schriften/koran/index.php
>
>just one example:
>
>You quote:
>
>> "When you meet unbelievers, behead them until you have made much
>> slaughter among them" (47:4).
>
>This is the translation I find which sheds a totally different light
>on the text:
>
>Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their
>necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond
>firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or
>ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded):
>but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted
>retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to
>test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of
>Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
>

this is a modern translation and the problem with any translation is,
that it is already interpretation.

>This sounds much less bloodthirsty does it not? It even allows for
>mercy and nowhere does it say you need to slaughter all of them! In
>the contrary it follows most rules laid don in modern warfare rulings
>like the Haager Landkriegsordnung of 1907.
>
>http://www.mysticletters.com/quran-viewer/arabic-yusuf-ali/47.php
>
>You see you are using he same technique the hate prachers are using,
>you uote out of context!

you say hate-preachers?
This is normal way for a lot of preachers.
You try to put tolerance in, where no tolerance is taught.
This is our society problem and it might well be that we will finish
with it, like the greek society or the roman one.

you can find more information here:
<http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm>
<http://www.wcurrlin.de/links/basiswissen/gz-eigenmaterial/islam/koran-
zur-gewalt.htm>

>
>>> or a far more interesting reading than the bible, which is in arts a
>>> piece of literature that could well have been written as a Tarantina
>>> Screenplay.
>>
>> I don't know, how much of the bible you read.
>> The bible contains a lot of different kinds of literature and this
>> makes
>> it not only interesting for historians. The oldest piece is the song
>> of
>> miriam (Ex15).
>> You will find history, poems and a lot more things.
>> You will also find different philosophies there (Paulus are John are
>> very different).
>> but of course parts of the bible served as justification for the
>> crusades or forced proselytization of America and other parts of the
>> world.
>
>Sure there is lots of interesting and even enlighting stuff in there
>(been a while since I read it, my favourite publisher nowadays is
>O'Reilly) things like sodomy, incest, brother murder, etc. etc.

sure it has, because big parts of the OT is told history.
And such things are part of human history, aren't they?
It also tells that King David erased all the people east of the Jordan,
nowadays we would call the guy a military dictator and the things he
did, crimes against humanity or genocide.
This was some 3000 years ago and at least the last 2000 years Jews
didn't terrorize other people - instead they were terrorized. OK there
is the problem in Palestine, but I'd prefer to look on that one more as
a nationalistic or political thing, not a Jewish quest against the rest
of the world.

>
>>> The Quran - though it may be a bit confusing, because
>>> roughly a 1000 years ago someone had the bright idea to sort the
>>> sures
>>> (chapters) according to their length - is far more of a life guide
>>> designed to ensure a peaceful and prospering society.
>>
>> that's joke, but a bad one :(
>
>Actually not, many a part is just advice for living

as said before, it is not advice it is law.

There are modern Muslims, who do interpret things in a different way.
There was a guy called Atatürk, you seperated state and religion in Turkey.
There are others, some of them a threatened with death by traditionalists.

<http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,440340,00.html>
<http://www.irshadmanji.com/>
<http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890>

>
>>> Nowhere does it explicitly condone things like the holy war "jihad"
>>> which is a totally illogic and unfunded concept, and it explicitly
>>> talks about peaceful coexistence with judaism (people of the book).
>>
>> see quotations up.
>
>Even in the ones you quoted there is nothing that says anything abut a
>holy war

how's about this one:
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly
with them." (Surah 9:121)

you also might want to check out this article:
<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dschihad>
or
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad>

>
>>> and it is known for example that the most holy
>>> monument of Islam, the Kaaba in Mecca was actually a christian church
>>> and it still holds a relief of virgin mary which is much cherished.
>>
>> this is again wrong.
>> It was never a church. It was a holy place for the god Hubal until
>> Mohammed conquered Mekka.
>
>Th scholars are not too certain of the acual facts here, as the object
>of interest is not open for inspection!

you can read the discussion here:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba>

no one ever claimed there was a church there.
Christianity started spreading more towards the mediterranean area.

>>>
>>> In the end it is not a question of faith, ideology or anything, it is
>>> about one thing only : POWER!
>>
>> this is oversimplified, sorry.
>
>I believe it is this simple!
>
>>> And only for those "in charge". Insofar the ruling Islam elite is not
>>> too different from the ruling political elite in other countries,
>>> their ultimate goal is basically the same.
>>
>> which one?
>
>to gain POWER!
>
>>> As always, its the little people who get ground up in between the
>>> wheels of the power seekers, but this has been a fact of life since
>>> the first cave man clobbered his neighbour to steal his wife.
>>
>> again oversimplified. You need people to rage major wars.
>> You need also people to crash the twins or blow up trains in Spain.
>> These terrorists were all well educated and not stupid on one side on
>> the other side as poorer people get as more open they are for extreme
>> ideologies.
>> Remember, in case you blow yourself up in the name of Allah you end up
>> with a dozens of virgins in paradise, nice isn't it, but only as
>> long as
>> you beliefe it.
>> What if there is no paradise with virgins and stuff like that - oh
>> bad luck.
>
>Well again a translation problem. As in arabic writing you do not
>write most vowels (they CAN be added above the letters as kind of
>accent characters), the translation is unclear of what it actually
>means. Cant find the reference right now, its satruday after all but
>if you insist I will check my sources.

you want to make everything a translation problem?
Well the facts in daily life look a bit different, don't they?
I just see here minced meat looking for virgins and some other guys
being murdered...

>
>>>
>>> Open a newspaper and read it from front to back and you know what I
>>> mean.
>>>
>>> Civilisation is a very thin and fragile veneer over the true human
>>> nature!
>>
>> Please then explain me, what is the true human nature.
>
>Survival of the fittest, pure egoism and concentration of interest and
>empathy only on the own breed, just like most animals around us. What
>leads you to think we are differen?

my experience with people.

>Well we are insofar as Man is the only creature on this planet that
>does know deliberate cruelty o others of the same species!
>
>> To my understanding it was always the quest for living in happiness
>> and peace.
>
>Yep, for yourself and your on breed, all others are enemies!

this throws a very doubtful light on yourself, man.
But actually I think you are quite wrong.

>
>> Such books like the quran or Mein Kampf are targeting to poison the
>> mind
>> of people.
>
>Wow!
>Careful here, to put the Quran in relation with Mein Kampf is going
>well beyond any accepteable line, I will assume you wrote this without
>much consideration....!

no I didn't, I wanted to provoke, to show where this can bring us in the
worst case.

Where is the difference, Hitler wanted to make everyone a Nazi, besides
those who didn't fitted in the frame and them he tried to kill, what for
a horror.
The difference is that Hitler was putting some people per se in the not
fitting frame, Jews for example and the Quran tries to talk people into
first trying to convert everybody, if it doesn't work, well .... bad luck.

>
>>> Live with it as best you can, there is no way you are going to change
>>> anything whatsoever!
>>>
>>
>> me alone won't change anything, the same was valid for Georg
>> Elser ....
>
>Well, he screwed up did he not? But I get your point. Nevertheless a
>whole religion followed by million of people is not the same thing as
>a single dictator.

the difference is that Muhammed was successful, Hitler wasn't.
I guess most of the people are pretty happy that he and his ideology got
stopped pretty quickly (in terms of history 12 years is pretty fast).

>
>> Only society can do something. Putting the head in the sand will
>> result
>> in victory of the extreme and end of freedom.
>
>You are right on this one, and I never said to put the head into the
>sand but I will not fight windmills just to claim martyrdom
>afterwards. Thats just plan idiotic!

What I see in our society is an over-tolerance towards ideologies/
religion, which might become something like the Trojan horse and on the
other side a declining tolerance towards people, who don't do much bad
things besides damaging their own health, like smokers.


I just got so shocked and sad, when I saw that video. I had to shout it
out that made me feel a little bit better.
And of course I didn't intended to practice tolerance towards such
idiots, I more felt compassion towards these people suffering under such
an ideology and no one cares for it, what a shame.


cheers,
Matthias

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[Mehboob Alam]

> One could say it is in a way a spin off from Judaism, but the islamic
> guys wouldn't agree.

> Ok, so its a spin off of judaism...

Wow.. an amazing amount of mis-information thrown about my non-muslims.. this is the kind of misunderstanding and heresay that leads to this modern mess of "us vs. them".

Islam is a "religion of the Book", professes to only worship one God, and that happens to be the same God as that of Judaism, and Christianity. All three religions trace their lineage to Adam and Eve, and Abraham.

Jesus (in Islam) is a messenger of God, and was sent to lead the Children of Israel to a new path. It's just that Mohammed is considered to be the last Prophet, and the Quran is the final word of God.

here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus

Try reading an English translation of the Quran. It's quite illuminating and very interesting, much like the Bible is.

The Taliban, Al-Qaeda, etc. like most extremists and conservatives, are chauvinistic men intent on regressive male-female relationship, and long for the "good ole days".. Same can be said of Evangelical Christians, Mormons etc.

There..

sincerely,
mehboob alam


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[Alexander Heintz]

Hi Mehboob,

if you read my parts of the discussion, you will find that we seem to  
agree on a large scale.

As for the roots of Islam being in Judais, well nothing is poven here,  
but there is a high level of consent between the more open minded  
scholars, there are too many people and beliefs that point strongly  
towards common roots.
Which is mothing bad and says nothing obout which religion is the true  
one.

I personally believe, that everybody in the whole world is allowed to  
decide themselves what god or hihger entity they believe in, if at  
all, and it is no mans business to criticise that in any way or to  
want to influence it. Missionary work of any kind is in my opinion a  
very bad thing.

One thing most people in our part of the world do not understand is  
one of the fundamental differences in the concept of the Islamic  
religious law and ou "western" laws:

All laws passed by countries and valid in most countries of the world  
are so called "territorial laws" valid only within the confines of the  
legislatives reach that passed the law (Country, State, etc. - Ok lets  
not indulge on the concepts of UN laws, the international Court in  
TheHague, etc.) The Islamic laws are considered "personal laws" that  
each person carries with him wherever he goes and that, in the view of  
some Islamic scholars , comes always before territorial laws, which,  
as we can imagine, does tend to cause a few problems.

OK,

sunday evening,

back to work.

Lest I forget: That no one gets me wrong, I do in no way give excuse  
or understanding to what the atrocities going on in northern pakistan  
and any other places where people oppress other people in the name of  
religion (any religion) or whatever.

>> One could say it is in a way a spin off from Judaism, but the islamic
>> guys wouldn't agree.
>
>> Ok, so its a spin off of judaism...
>
> Wow.. an amazing amount of mis-information thrown about my non-
> muslims.. this is the kind of misunderstanding and heresay that  
> leads to this modern mess of "us vs. them".
>
> Islam is a "religion of the Book", professes to only worship one  
> God, and that happens to be the same God as that of Judaism, and  
> Christianity. All three religions trace their lineage to Adam and  
> Eve, and Abraham.
>
> Jesus (in Islam) is a messenger of God, and was sent to lead the  
> Children of Israel to a new path. It's just that Mohammed is  
> considered to be the last Prophet, and the Quran is the final word  
> of God.
>
> here..
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus
>
> Try reading an English translation of the Quran. It's quite  
> illuminating and very interesting, much like the Bible is.
>
> The Taliban, Al-Qaeda, etc. like most extremists and conservatives,  
> are chauvinistic men intent on regressive male-female relationship,  
> and long for the "good ole days".. Same can be said of Evangelical  
> Christians, Mormons etc.
>
> There..
>
> sincerely,
> mehboob alam
>
>
> Electricity is actually made up of extremely tiny particles called  
> electrons, that you cannot see with the naked eye unless you have  
> been drinking. - Dave Barry
>
>
>
>
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[Alexander Heintz]

One last thing:

I just noticed that the title of this thread is utter rubbish!!

EVERY Religion is an Ideology per definition!

> Look this:
>
> <http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/02/22/world/asia/1194838044017/
> class-dismissed-in-swat-valley.html>
>
> Islam is more than dangerous it's threat for freedom of mankind.
>
> I'm so sad
>
> Matthias
>
>
>
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[Matthias Schmidt-6]

Am/On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 23:40:48 +0100 schrieb/wrote Alexander Heintz:

>One last thing:
>
>I just noticed that the title of this thread is utter rubbish!!
>
>EVERY Religion is an Ideology per definition!

you are again wrong.
only religions, which are based on an idea are ideologies.


cheers,
Matthias

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