Issue on artist names

[Leonardo Prado]

Hello MB folks! :)

I saw some emails about switching to forums from mailing lists, so I
posted my issue there; having received no feedback, I'll try talking
about it here instead.

http://forums.musicbrainz.org/viewtopic.php?id=1755

All the issues I'm facing are described in the topic. It's kind of
long, because another editor and I carried over the debate from edits
to the topic. I know few people (if any) feel comfortable commenting
on Japanese releases, but the matter in question is beyond that, since
it involves topics such as usage of the guidelines, copying
information word-for-word from another source, and so on.

I've reached a point where I don't know what's correct anymore. One of
us is doing it wrong (and by this point, that hardly matters anymore),
but I would like to clear up the mess. I'd appreciate any help you can
offer.

Thanks in advance,
Leonardo Prado

_______________________________________________
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MusicBrainz-users@...
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[Mika Heiska-2]

Well I said my piece, that if we start storing all the fictional
characters instead of their voice actors/actors, it's going to get messy
really fast. I think that even though the booklet says the artist is the
character, if we know the actual performer behind the track, we should
use that.

And even though there are some exceptions allowed for Japanese music in
general, I don't think this should be one of them.

I mean, do we want artist like this in MBz?[1]

~Mika / Kilu

[1]http://musicbrainz.org/show/artist/?artistid=626328

On 10.7.2009 2:58, Leonardo Prado wrote:

> Hello MB folks! :)
>
> I saw some emails about switching to forums from mailing lists, so I
> posted my issue there; having received no feedback, I'll try talking
> about it here instead.
>
> http://forums.musicbrainz.org/viewtopic.php?id=1755
>
> All the issues I'm facing are described in the topic. It's kind of
> long, because another editor and I carried over the debate from edits
> to the topic. I know few people (if any) feel comfortable commenting
> on Japanese releases, but the matter in question is beyond that, since
> it involves topics such as usage of the guidelines, copying
> information word-for-word from another source, and so on.
>
> I've reached a point where I don't know what's correct anymore. One of
> us is doing it wrong (and by this point, that hardly matters anymore),
> but I would like to clear up the mess. I'd appreciate any help you can
> offer.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Leonardo Prado
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>

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[Brian Schweitzer]

This debate has been held before, and I still come down 50/50 on it.  For anime releases like this, or the South Park, Sesame Street, Muppets, etc Fictional Artists, I think there's at least some reason to keep the character name.  I wouldn't want to see that extend, though, to musical theater, opera, or other similar releases with roles.  Long term, I would love to see the Roles Proposal happen, so we can store roles, but not have them contaminating the artist data.  For the moment, though, I think keeping such Fictional Artists documented, and keeping them confined to soundtracks outside of musical theater or opera acomplishes the best we can for maintaining the most data.  (At least, assuming "performs as" ARs also get created to link performer and fictional artist).  The musical theater and opera roles are constant across releases, and should be relatively easy to insert in in the future, but "fixing" up the anime or cartoon releases to include roles, at some later point, may prove rather more difficult.

Brian

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Mika Heiska <kilualmighty@...> wrote:

Well I said my piece, that if we start storing all the fictional
characters instead of their voice actors/actors, it's going to get messy
really fast. I think that even though the booklet says the artist is the
character, if we know the actual performer behind the track, we should
use that.

And even though there are some exceptions allowed for Japanese music in
general, I don't think this should be one of them.

I mean, do we want artist like this in MBz?[1]

~Mika / Kilu

[1]http://musicbrainz.org/show/artist/?artistid=626328

On 10.7.2009 2:58, Leonardo Prado wrote:
> Hello MB folks! :)
>
> I saw some emails about switching to forums from mailing lists, so I
> posted my issue there; having received no feedback, I'll try talking
> about it here instead.
>
> http://forums.musicbrainz.org/viewtopic.php?id=1755
>
> All the issues I'm facing are described in the topic. It's kind of
> long, because another editor and I carried over the debate from edits
> to the topic. I know few people (if any) feel comfortable commenting
> on Japanese releases, but the matter in question is beyond that, since
> it involves topics such as usage of the guidelines, copying
> information word-for-word from another source, and so on.
>
> I've reached a point where I don't know what's correct anymore. One of
> us is doing it wrong (and by this point, that hardly matters anymore),
> but I would like to clear up the mess. I'd appreciate any help you can
> offer.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Leonardo Prado
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>

_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-users mailing list
MusicBrainz-users@...
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

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[Mika Heiska-2]

If there is something in the future that can take care of this mess, we
should keep the info easily available, but out of artist names.

So I would keep this stuff in annotations, with no exceptions to anime
or South Park or anything else.

But even if there is no agreement on whether to use real people or
fictional characters, I think we can all agree that using a combination
of the two, as has been done with the link on my first email, is not the
right way to go.

~Mika / Kilu

On 10.7.2009 4:00, Brian Schweitzer wrote:

> This debate has been held before, and I still come down 50/50 on it.
> For anime releases like this, or the South Park, Sesame Street, Muppets,
> etc Fictional Artists, I think there's at least some reason to keep the
> character name.  I wouldn't want to see that extend, though, to musical
> theater, opera, or other similar releases with roles.  Long term, I
> would love to see the Roles Proposal happen, so we can store roles, but
> not have them contaminating the artist data.  For the moment, though, I
> think keeping such Fictional Artists documented, and keeping them
> confined to soundtracks outside of musical theater or opera acomplishes
> the best we can for maintaining the most data.  (At least, assuming
> "performs as" ARs also get created to link performer and fictional
> artist).  The musical theater and opera roles are constant across
> releases, and should be relatively easy to insert in in the future, but
> "fixing" up the anime or cartoon releases to include roles, at some
> later point, may prove rather more difficult.
>
> Brian
>
> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Mika Heiska <kilualmighty@...
> <mailto:kilualmighty@...>> wrote:
>
>     Well I said my piece, that if we start storing all the fictional
>     characters instead of their voice actors/actors, it's going to get messy
>     really fast. I think that even though the booklet says the artist is the
>     character, if we know the actual performer behind the track, we should
>     use that.
>
>     And even though there are some exceptions allowed for Japanese music in
>     general, I don't think this should be one of them.
>
>     I mean, do we want artist like this in MBz?[1]
>
>     ~Mika / Kilu
>
>     [1]http://musicbrainz.org/show/artist/?artistid=626328
>
>     On 10.7.2009 2:58, Leonardo Prado wrote:
>      > Hello MB folks! :)
>      >
>      > I saw some emails about switching to forums from mailing lists, so I
>      > posted my issue there; having received no feedback, I'll try talking
>      > about it here instead.
>      >
>      > http://forums.musicbrainz.org/viewtopic.php?id=1755
>      >
>      > All the issues I'm facing are described in the topic. It's kind of
>      > long, because another editor and I carried over the debate from edits
>      > to the topic. I know few people (if any) feel comfortable commenting
>      > on Japanese releases, but the matter in question is beyond that,
>     since
>      > it involves topics such as usage of the guidelines, copying
>      > information word-for-word from another source, and so on.
>      >
>      > I've reached a point where I don't know what's correct anymore.
>     One of
>      > us is doing it wrong (and by this point, that hardly matters
>     anymore),
>      > but I would like to clear up the mess. I'd appreciate any help
>     you can
>      > offer.
>      >
>      > Thanks in advance,
>      > Leonardo Prado
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > MusicBrainz-users mailing list
>      > MusicBrainz-users@...
>     <mailto:MusicBrainz-users@...>
>      > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>      >
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     MusicBrainz-users mailing list
>     MusicBrainz-users@...
>     <mailto:MusicBrainz-users@...>
>     http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

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[Kuno Woudt-2]

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 03:50:48AM +0300, Mika Heiska wrote:
> Well I said my piece, that if we start storing all the fictional
> characters instead of their voice actors/actors, it's going to get messy
> really fast. I think that even though the booklet says the artist is the
> character, if we know the actual performer behind the track, we should
> use that.

I prefer to match the release artist and track artist exactly as on the
cover / booklet and use ARs to record which actual persons were involved
in the release/track and how.

> And even though there are some exceptions allowed for Japanese music in
> general, I don't think this should be one of them.
>
> I mean, do we want artist like this in MBz?[1]

Yes.

-- kuno / warp.


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[Paul C. Bryan]

What I just said in the forum -- but I still prefer the mailing list:

I've come around to the idea of letting personas be fully-fledged
artists in MusicBrainz. There are numerous instances of artists using
different performance names. Artists make-up group names, and skip from
one group to the next. Characters as personas seem no different to me.
If it's Homer Simpson or Eric Cartman that's credited, so be it. We can
always annotate the artist to show its relationship to the actual
performer.

I personally give great deference to those who edit Japanese titles,
partially because I don't appreciate the culture well enough to judge
what's the norm, but mostly because I can't read Japanese! So, take what
a westerner has said for whatever it's worth. So, my best suggestion:
use character name in artist name, and use ARs and annotations to
clarify.

Paul

On Thu, 2009-07-09 at 20:58 -0300, Leonardo Prado wrote:

> Hello MB folks! :)
>
> I saw some emails about switching to forums from mailing lists, so I
> posted my issue there; having received no feedback, I'll try talking
> about it here instead.
>
> http://forums.musicbrainz.org/viewtopic.php?id=1755
>
> All the issues I'm facing are described in the topic. It's kind of
> long, because another editor and I carried over the debate from edits
> to the topic. I know few people (if any) feel comfortable commenting
> on Japanese releases, but the matter in question is beyond that, since
> it involves topics such as usage of the guidelines, copying
> information word-for-word from another source, and so on.
>
> I've reached a point where I don't know what's correct anymore. One of
> us is doing it wrong (and by this point, that hardly matters anymore),
> but I would like to clear up the mess. I'd appreciate any help you can
> offer.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Leonardo Prado
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

_______________________________________________
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[Mika Heiska-2]

Seriously? "THE CHILDREN starring Aya Hirano & Ryoko Shiraishi & Haruka
Tomatsu" is a good artist name? It makes absolutely no sense to me. If
it's a group, then use the group, if it's fictional group, then use
that. Or use the people's name. But it's just unnecessary to use both.
It's just garbage.

I think it's just a different way to credit people. It's not like MBz
has had problems picking and choosing what information to include in the
database before. Why is it that everything that is Japanese is suddenly
considered artist intent? I mean, I get that capitalization is something
that is purposely strange in some Japanese releases, but this kind of
thing is just ridiculous.

~Mika

On 10.7.2009 9:38, Kuno Woudt wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 03:50:48AM +0300, Mika Heiska wrote:
>> Well I said my piece, that if we start storing all the fictional
>> characters instead of their voice actors/actors, it's going to get messy
>> really fast. I think that even though the booklet says the artist is the
>> character, if we know the actual performer behind the track, we should
>> use that.
>
> I prefer to match the release artist and track artist exactly as on the
> cover / booklet and use ARs to record which actual persons were involved
> in the release/track and how.
>
>> And even though there are some exceptions allowed for Japanese music in
>> general, I don't think this should be one of them.
>>
>> I mean, do we want artist like this in MBz?[1]
>
> Yes.
>
> -- kuno / warp.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>

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[Paul C. Bryan]

One of the reasons -- for me -- is because I've been beaten with the
Japanese-artist-intent stick so many times. Also, I must admit, I don't
really understand the concepts that drive Japanese metadata.

If I understood the rules better, and could relate to them, I'd be happy
to participate in the discussion. On its face, what you say makes sense
to me. On its face, a lot of practices in English wind up being
completely the opposite of the practices in Japanese.

Paul

On Fri, 2009-07-10 at 15:17 +0300, Mika Heiska wrote:

> Seriously? "THE CHILDREN starring Aya Hirano & Ryoko Shiraishi & Haruka
> Tomatsu" is a good artist name? It makes absolutely no sense to me. If
> it's a group, then use the group, if it's fictional group, then use
> that. Or use the people's name. But it's just unnecessary to use both.
> It's just garbage.
>
> I think it's just a different way to credit people. It's not like MBz
> has had problems picking and choosing what information to include in the
> database before. Why is it that everything that is Japanese is suddenly
> considered artist intent? I mean, I get that capitalization is something
> that is purposely strange in some Japanese releases, but this kind of
> thing is just ridiculous.
>
> ~Mika
>
> On 10.7.2009 9:38, Kuno Woudt wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 03:50:48AM +0300, Mika Heiska wrote:
> >> Well I said my piece, that if we start storing all the fictional
> >> characters instead of their voice actors/actors, it's going to get messy
> >> really fast. I think that even though the booklet says the artist is the
> >> character, if we know the actual performer behind the track, we should
> >> use that.
> >
> > I prefer to match the release artist and track artist exactly as on the
> > cover / booklet and use ARs to record which actual persons were involved
> > in the release/track and how.
> >
> >> And even though there are some exceptions allowed for Japanese music in
> >> general, I don't think this should be one of them.
> >>
> >> I mean, do we want artist like this in MBz?[1]
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > -- kuno / warp.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> > MusicBrainz-users@...
> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

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[Kuno Woudt-2]

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 03:17:58PM +0300, Mika Heiska wrote:
> Seriously? "THE CHILDREN starring Aya Hirano & Ryoko Shiraishi & Haruka
> Tomatsu" is a good artist name? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

No, it's not a particularly good or useful artist name.  However, it is
what the track is credited as on the backcover, so that is how I want
the track represented in the database and in the tags of my files.

For me, the release artist and track artist fields are mostly useful
in capturing what is on the cover and backcover tracklist.

Useful data about which persons had which role in creating a particular
release or track can be accurately captured in the ARs.  
 
> I think it's just a different way to credit people. It's not like MBz
> has had problems picking and choosing what information to include in the
> database before. Why is it that everything that is Japanese is suddenly
> considered artist intent? I mean, I get that capitalization is something
> that is purposely strange in some Japanese releases, but this kind of
> thing is just ridiculous.

This has nothing to do with japanese releases.  I would do the same for
weird collaboration artists or fictional character artist from any other
culture or geographical location.

Those fields should (IMO) capture whatever people put on the (back)cover.  
That is where you'd look for it in a record store, etc..  It is useful
information, and shouldn't be discarded just because you know which actual
person is behind it.  

-- kuno / warp.


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[Paul C. Bryan]

+1 to that.

On Fri, 2009-07-10 at 21:05 +0200, Kuno Woudt wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 03:17:58PM +0300, Mika Heiska wrote:
> > Seriously? "THE CHILDREN starring Aya Hirano & Ryoko Shiraishi & Haruka
> > Tomatsu" is a good artist name? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
>
> No, it's not a particularly good or useful artist name.  However, it is
> what the track is credited as on the backcover, so that is how I want
> the track represented in the database and in the tags of my files.
>
> For me, the release artist and track artist fields are mostly useful
> in capturing what is on the cover and backcover tracklist.
>
> Useful data about which persons had which role in creating a particular
> release or track can be accurately captured in the ARs.  
>  
> > I think it's just a different way to credit people. It's not like MBz
> > has had problems picking and choosing what information to include in the
> > database before. Why is it that everything that is Japanese is suddenly
> > considered artist intent? I mean, I get that capitalization is something
> > that is purposely strange in some Japanese releases, but this kind of
> > thing is just ridiculous.
>
> This has nothing to do with japanese releases.  I would do the same for
> weird collaboration artists or fictional character artist from any other
> culture or geographical location.
>
> Those fields should (IMO) capture whatever people put on the (back)cover.  
> That is where you'd look for it in a record store, etc..  It is useful
> information, and shouldn't be discarded just because you know which actual
> person is behind it.  
>
> -- kuno / warp.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

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[Eric Shattow-3]

Artists and album art designers frequently get the facts wrong about whom did what. Licensing and copyright squabbles also interfere with the truth about who participated or did not.

You folks are confusing art and fact. Is this a discussion of MusicBrainz policy?

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Paul C. Bryan <email@...> wrote:

+1 to that.

On Fri, 2009-07-10 at 21:05 +0200, Kuno Woudt wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 03:17:58PM +0300, Mika Heiska wrote:
> > Seriously? "THE CHILDREN starring Aya Hirano & Ryoko Shiraishi & Haruka
> > Tomatsu" is a good artist name? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
>
> No, it's not a particularly good or useful artist name.  However, it is
> what the track is credited as on the backcover, so that is how I want
> the track represented in the database and in the tags of my files.
>
> For me, the release artist and track artist fields are mostly useful
> in capturing what is on the cover and backcover tracklist.
>
> Useful data about which persons had which role in creating a particular
> release or track can be accurately captured in the ARs.
>
> > I think it's just a different way to credit people. It's not like MBz
> > has had problems picking and choosing what information to include in the
> > database before. Why is it that everything that is Japanese is suddenly
> > considered artist intent? I mean, I get that capitalization is something
> > that is purposely strange in some Japanese releases, but this kind of
> > thing is just ridiculous.
>
> This has nothing to do with japanese releases.  I would do the same for
> weird collaboration artists or fictional character artist from any other
> culture or geographical location.
>
> Those fields should (IMO) capture whatever people put on the (back)cover.
> That is where you'd look for it in a record store, etc..  It is useful
> information, and shouldn't be discarded just because you know which actual
> person is behind it.
>
> -- kuno / warp.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users


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[Paul C. Bryan]

It seems to becoming one. It's one thing to correct a typo, it's another
to reinterpret how artists are credited.

If credit is given to Homer Simpson, why lose that information by
replacing it with Dan Castellaneta? Homer is a well-known character,
with a distinctive and recognizable voice and style. In my opinion,
credit to Homer is better.

Reinterpreting artist credits to find the "true" performer is a lossy
operation; IMO the objective of MB is to represent the facts, which is:
the persona of Homer is credited with the performance, and Homer's
performer is Castellaneta.

I'm not confusing art and fact. I want to retain both when it's not
onerous to do so.

On Fri, 2009-07-10 at 14:37 -0500, Eric Shattow wrote:

> Artists and album art designers frequently get the facts wrong about
> whom did what. Licensing and copyright squabbles also interfere with
> the truth about who participated or did not.
>
> You folks are confusing art and fact. Is this a discussion of
> MusicBrainz policy?
>
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Paul C. Bryan <email@...>
> wrote:
>         +1 to that.
>        
>        
>         On Fri, 2009-07-10 at 21:05 +0200, Kuno Woudt wrote:
>         > On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 03:17:58PM +0300, Mika Heiska wrote:
>         > > Seriously? "THE CHILDREN starring Aya Hirano & Ryoko
>         Shiraishi & Haruka
>         > > Tomatsu" is a good artist name? It makes absolutely no
>         sense to me.
>         >
>         > No, it's not a particularly good or useful artist name.
>          However, it is
>         > what the track is credited as on the backcover, so that is
>         how I want
>         > the track represented in the database and in the tags of my
>         files.
>         >
>         > For me, the release artist and track artist fields are
>         mostly useful
>         > in capturing what is on the cover and backcover tracklist.
>         >
>         > Useful data about which persons had which role in creating a
>         particular
>         > release or track can be accurately captured in the ARs.
>         >
>         > > I think it's just a different way to credit people. It's
>         not like MBz
>         > > has had problems picking and choosing what information to
>         include in the
>         > > database before. Why is it that everything that is
>         Japanese is suddenly
>         > > considered artist intent? I mean, I get that
>         capitalization is something
>         > > that is purposely strange in some Japanese releases, but
>         this kind of
>         > > thing is just ridiculous.
>         >
>         > This has nothing to do with japanese releases.  I would do
>         the same for
>         > weird collaboration artists or fictional character artist
>         from any other
>         > culture or geographical location.
>         >
>         > Those fields should (IMO) capture whatever people put on the
>         (back)cover.
>         > That is where you'd look for it in a record store, etc..  It
>         is useful
>         > information, and shouldn't be discarded just because you
>         know which actual
>         > person is behind it.
>         >
>         > -- kuno / warp.
>         >
>         >
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[Kuno Woudt-2]

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 09:12:24AM -0700, Paul C. Bryan wrote:
> One of the reasons -- for me -- is because I've been beaten with the
> Japanese-artist-intent stick so many times. Also, I must admit, I don't
> really understand the concepts that drive Japanese metadata.
>
> If I understood the rules better, and could relate to them, I'd be happy
> to participate in the discussion. On its face, what you say makes sense
> to me. On its face, a lot of practices in English wind up being
> completely the opposite of the practices in Japanese.

I disagree.  The rules (and practices) are the same.  The releases are
different.  (and none of this has anything to do with ArtistIntent).

Looking through my western releases, I can't find a single release
where you would think the capitalization matters.  In most cases it's
either all caps or all lowercase.  In some cases I am tempted to keep
the lowercase ones, but usually it's obviously just the graphic
designer having some fun because everything is lowercased, not just
the tracklisting.

Of those releases which do use a proper font which distinguishes between
lower and uppercase they often don't deviate from our guidelines, in
which case none of this matters.  And in the cases where it does, again
you'll usually find some clue that it's just the graphic designer
determining this, and it's not part of the release or track title.

For example if you look at Bjork's Homogenic, you'll see that she uses
"All Is Full Of Love" on the back cover tracklist.  I would be inclined
to keep it like than in Musicbrainz too.  However, then you notice that
the release title is "Homogenic" on the backcover but "homogenic" on the
spine.  Looking further, it turns out the booklet has all tracks in
lowercase, including "all is full of love".

In general, for western releases, caps don't matter.  However, if I
would encounter one where it would, I would include it in MusicBrainz
without hitting 'Guess Case'.

Looking through my asian releases, the Japanese releases tend to
use fonts which distinguish between upper and lowercase.  And the
tracktitles make creative use of that fact, usually consistently so.

Considering that the CapitalizationStandardEnglish are not a
StrongGuideline, the following bit of the StylePrinciple applies:

    "If, however, something is consistently labelled in a
    different style on official sources, then this classifies as
    Consistent Original Data and overrules the Style Guidelines."

So you get to keep the caps.  Not because the release is japanese, but
because that particular release happens to consistently use caps.

You may also be tempted to use SubtitleStyle for tracktitles such as
these:

オペラ　「序曲」
http://musicbrainz.org/track/964f508f-f985-46d5-8fe4-9bea821fecab.html

OUTGROW ～Ready butterfly～
http://musicbrainz.org/track/1fd83494-47ac-446f-8ab3-2191c8bc3700.html

But like the CapitalizationStandard, SubtitleStyle is not a Strong
guideline, so point 3 of the StylePrinciple applies here too.  

(If it was, we would probably need different SubtitleStyles for
 different cultures.  The above examples use quotation/subtitle
 marks as they are common in japanese, see:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_punctuation#Quotation_marks).


Perhaps I should note that in my experience japanese releases are
NOT consistent when it comes to spacing.  For example when a subtitle
appears between wave dashes it may or may not have whitespace in
front of it.  Online retailers tend to omit it, whether the release
has whitespace in such places or not.  Same goes for the official
site.  For example, the second track mentioned above has a space on
the backcover, but not on the publisher's site:

http://avexnet.jp/id/boaxx/discography/product/AVCD-17795.html

This seems analogous to the usage of caps on western releases.  
Perhaps we need a WhitespaceStyleJapanese :).


For some reason people always think ArtistIntent has something to do
with this.  ArtistIntent only applies when either we have contacted
the artist to confirm his or her intent, or the artist has expressed
their intent in an interview or something like that.  You cannot infer
ArtistIntent from the tracklisting alone.  

The only thing which causes these releases to be treated differently
is because the releases are different.  It's still the same
StylePrinciple which applies to all of them.

-- kuno / warp.



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[Mika Heiska-2]

I didn't say the data should be discarded, but stored elsewhere,
currently annotations. Big difference.

In general my view is that this kind of thing decreases the usefulness
of the site by splintering same artist into several sub-entries that
needlessly bloat the database and the search. Just for an example, if
you search for artist Ryoko Shiraishi, you can see the main entry but
you can also see 5 other entries with these artist + character
combinations, splintering that one person. These are all fresh, but if
this continues I can only imagine what it will look like in a few more
months.

So I say that we should nip this in the bud while we still can.

But you know, that's just me.

~Mika

On 10.7.2009 22:05, Kuno Woudt wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 03:17:58PM +0300, Mika Heiska wrote:
>> Seriously? "THE CHILDREN starring Aya Hirano&  Ryoko Shiraishi&  Haruka
>> Tomatsu" is a good artist name? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
>
> No, it's not a particularly good or useful artist name.  However, it is
> what the track is credited as on the backcover, so that is how I want
> the track represented in the database and in the tags of my files.
>
> For me, the release artist and track artist fields are mostly useful
> in capturing what is on the cover and backcover tracklist.
>
> Useful data about which persons had which role in creating a particular
> release or track can be accurately captured in the ARs.
>
>> I think it's just a different way to credit people. It's not like MBz
>> has had problems picking and choosing what information to include in the
>> database before. Why is it that everything that is Japanese is suddenly
>> considered artist intent? I mean, I get that capitalization is something
>> that is purposely strange in some Japanese releases, but this kind of
>> thing is just ridiculous.
>
> This has nothing to do with japanese releases.  I would do the same for
> weird collaboration artists or fictional character artist from any other
> culture or geographical location.
>
> Those fields should (IMO) capture whatever people put on the (back)cover.
> That is where you'd look for it in a record store, etc..  It is useful
> information, and shouldn't be discarded just because you know which actual
> person is behind it.
>
> -- kuno / warp.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
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[dolphinling-2]

Mika Heiska wrote:

> I didn't say the data should be discarded, but stored elsewhere,
> currently annotations. Big difference.
>
> In general my view is that this kind of thing decreases the usefulness
> of the site by splintering same artist into several sub-entries that
> needlessly bloat the database and the search. Just for an example, if
> you search for artist Ryoko Shiraishi, you can see the main entry but
> you can also see 5 other entries with these artist + character
> combinations, splintering that one person. These are all fresh, but if
> this continues I can only imagine what it will look like in a few more
> months.

Is this any different from other artists that perform under a large number of names?

 From what I've seen, it's not uncommon for artists in various genres of
electronica to have quite a few. One that comes to mind is DJ TAKA
(http://musicbrainz.org/show/artist/relationships.html?artistid=247340), who's
in the DB under 8 performance names.

--
dolphinling
<http://dolphinling.net/>

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[gnu_andrew]

+1 to that too.

2009/7/10 Paul C. Bryan <email@...>:

> +1 to that.
>
> On Fri, 2009-07-10 at 21:05 +0200, Kuno Woudt wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 03:17:58PM +0300, Mika Heiska wrote:
>> > Seriously? "THE CHILDREN starring Aya Hirano & Ryoko Shiraishi & Haruka
>> > Tomatsu" is a good artist name? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
>>
>> No, it's not a particularly good or useful artist name.  However, it is
>> what the track is credited as on the backcover, so that is how I want
>> the track represented in the database and in the tags of my files.
>>
>> For me, the release artist and track artist fields are mostly useful
>> in capturing what is on the cover and backcover tracklist.
>>
>> Useful data about which persons had which role in creating a particular
>> release or track can be accurately captured in the ARs.
>>
>> > I think it's just a different way to credit people. It's not like MBz
>> > has had problems picking and choosing what information to include in the
>> > database before. Why is it that everything that is Japanese is suddenly
>> > considered artist intent? I mean, I get that capitalization is something
>> > that is purposely strange in some Japanese releases, but this kind of
>> > thing is just ridiculous.
>>
>> This has nothing to do with japanese releases.  I would do the same for
>> weird collaboration artists or fictional character artist from any other
>> culture or geographical location.
>>
>> Those fields should (IMO) capture whatever people put on the (back)cover.
>> That is where you'd look for it in a record store, etc..  It is useful
>> information, and shouldn't be discarded just because you know which actual
>> person is behind it.
>>
>> -- kuno / warp.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
>> MusicBrainz-users@...
>> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

--
Andrew :-)

Free Java Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc. (http://www.redhat.com)

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Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK
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[Mika Heiska-2]

On 12.7.2009 20:53, dolphinling wrote:

> Mika Heiska wrote:
>> I didn't say the data should be discarded, but stored elsewhere,
>> currently annotations. Big difference.
>>
>> In general my view is that this kind of thing decreases the usefulness
>> of the site by splintering same artist into several sub-entries that
>> needlessly bloat the database and the search. Just for an example, if
>> you search for artist Ryoko Shiraishi, you can see the main entry but
>> you can also see 5 other entries with these artist + character
>> combinations, splintering that one person. These are all fresh, but if
>> this continues I can only imagine what it will look like in a few more
>> months.
>
> Is this any different from other artists that perform under a large number of names?
>
>   From what I've seen, it's not uncommon for artists in various genres of
> electronica to have quite a few. One that comes to mind is DJ TAKA
> (http://musicbrainz.org/show/artist/relationships.html?artistid=247340), who's
> in the DB under 8 performance names.
>

I think it is quite different. I wouldn't call it a performance name. A
single character artist maybe, but even that is a stretch. Most of these
are multiple real people and multiple character names in one and the
same artist field. It really is quite different from performance names.

~Mika

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[Brian Schweitzer]

On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Mika Heiska <kilualmighty@...> wrote:

On 12.7.2009 20:53, dolphinling wrote:
> Mika Heiska wrote:
>> I didn't say the data should be discarded, but stored elsewhere,
>> currently annotations. Big difference.
>>
>> In general my view is that this kind of thing decreases the usefulness
>> of the site by splintering same artist into several sub-entries that
>> needlessly bloat the database and the search. Just for an example, if
>> you search for artist Ryoko Shiraishi, you can see the main entry but
>> you can also see 5 other entries with these artist + character
>> combinations, splintering that one person. These are all fresh, but if
>> this continues I can only imagine what it will look like in a few more
>> months.
>
> Is this any different from other artists that perform under a large number of names?
>
>   From what I've seen, it's not uncommon for artists in various genres of
> electronica to have quite a few. One that comes to mind is DJ TAKA
> (http://musicbrainz.org/show/artist/relationships.html?artistid=247340), who's
> in the DB under 8 performance names.
>

I think it is quite different. I wouldn't call it a performance name. A
single character artist maybe, but even that is a stretch. Most of these
are multiple real people and multiple character names in one and the
same artist field. It really is quite different from performance names.

~Mika

Actually, that, to me, seems an argument for keeping the characters as artists.  If the ARs are set correctly, then you not only have the person -> character -> track, but you also would have "John Foo performed as Steve Bar between 2001 and 2006-02; Tim Baz performed as Steve Bar between 2006-03 and 2009", etc.  Seems a decent argument to me for it to not be annotation fodder.

I'm not entirely against characters as artists, until we have something better to handle it (ie, "roles").  I'm only against "Steve Bar (John Foo)" bogus artists which combine character and performer into a new, but bogus, "role + performer" artist.

Brian

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[Mika Heiska-2]

On 13.7.2009 11:17, Brian Schweitzer wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Mika Heiska <kilualmighty@...
> <mailto:kilualmighty@...>> wrote:
>
>     On 12.7.2009 20:53, dolphinling wrote:
>      > Mika Heiska wrote:
>      >> I didn't say the data should be discarded, but stored elsewhere,
>      >> currently annotations. Big difference.
>      >>
>      >> In general my view is that this kind of thing decreases the
>     usefulness
>      >> of the site by splintering same artist into several sub-entries that
>      >> needlessly bloat the database and the search. Just for an
>     example, if
>      >> you search for artist Ryoko Shiraishi, you can see the main
>     entry but
>      >> you can also see 5 other entries with these artist + character
>      >> combinations, splintering that one person. These are all fresh,
>     but if
>      >> this continues I can only imagine what it will look like in a
>     few more
>      >> months.
>      >
>      > Is this any different from other artists that perform under a
>     large number of names?
>      >
>      >   From what I've seen, it's not uncommon for artists in various
>     genres of
>      > electronica to have quite a few. One that comes to mind is DJ TAKA
>      >
>     (http://musicbrainz.org/show/artist/relationships.html?artistid=247340),
>     who's
>      > in the DB under 8 performance names.
>      >
>
>     I think it is quite different. I wouldn't call it a performance name. A
>     single character artist maybe, but even that is a stretch. Most of these
>     are multiple real people and multiple character names in one and the
>     same artist field. It really is quite different from performance names.
>
>     ~Mika
>
>
> Actually, that, to me, seems an argument for keeping the characters as
> artists.  If the ARs are set correctly, then you not only have the
> person -> character -> track, but you also would have "John Foo
> performed as Steve Bar between 2001 and 2006-02; Tim Baz performed as
> Steve Bar between 2006-03 and 2009", etc.  Seems a decent argument to me
> for it to not be annotation fodder.
>
> I'm not entirely against characters as artists, until we have something
> better to handle it (ie, "roles").  I'm only against "Steve Bar (John
> Foo)" bogus artists which combine character and performer into a new,
> but bogus, "role + performer" artist.
>
> Brian
>
>

If you say so. To me, character as artist is only marginally better than
these weird combinations.

~Mika

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[Leonardo Prado]

Well, for the question "Do we need to include the character
with/instead of the artist?" we have:

NO: me and Mika
YES: neothe0ne, kuno, Paul and Andrew

Do 6 "votes" count as a consensus? :P

Or, if not, how can we definitely define how we edit the database from now on?

And Kuno made a joke about a "WhitespaceStyleJapanese", but I DO think
that a japanese guideline is necessary, so stop thinking that
everything in japanese is literal...


::leonardodna


2009/7/13 Mika Heiska <kilualmighty@...>:

> On 13.7.2009 11:17, Brian Schweitzer wrote:
>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Mika Heiska <kilualmighty@...
>> <mailto:kilualmighty@...>> wrote:
>>
>>     On 12.7.2009 20:53, dolphinling wrote:
>>      > Mika Heiska wrote:
>>      >> I didn't say the data should be discarded, but stored elsewhere,
>>      >> currently annotations. Big difference.
>>      >>
>>      >> In general my view is that this kind of thing decreases the
>>     usefulness
>>      >> of the site by splintering same artist into several sub-entries that
>>      >> needlessly bloat the database and the search. Just for an
>>     example, if
>>      >> you search for artist Ryoko Shiraishi, you can see the main
>>     entry but
>>      >> you can also see 5 other entries with these artist + character
>>      >> combinations, splintering that one person. These are all fresh,
>>     but if
>>      >> this continues I can only imagine what it will look like in a
>>     few more
>>      >> months.
>>      >
>>      > Is this any different from other artists that perform under a
>>     large number of names?
>>      >
>>      >   From what I've seen, it's not uncommon for artists in various
>>     genres of
>>      > electronica to have quite a few. One that comes to mind is DJ TAKA
>>      >
>>     (http://musicbrainz.org/show/artist/relationships.html?artistid=247340),
>>     who's
>>      > in the DB under 8 performance names.
>>      >
>>
>>     I think it is quite different. I wouldn't call it a performance name. A
>>     single character artist maybe, but even that is a stretch. Most of these
>>     are multiple real people and multiple character names in one and the
>>     same artist field. It really is quite different from performance names.
>>
>>     ~Mika
>>
>>
>> Actually, that, to me, seems an argument for keeping the characters as
>> artists.  If the ARs are set correctly, then you not only have the
>> person -> character -> track, but you also would have "John Foo
>> performed as Steve Bar between 2001 and 2006-02; Tim Baz performed as
>> Steve Bar between 2006-03 and 2009", etc.  Seems a decent argument to me
>> for it to not be annotation fodder.
>>
>> I'm not entirely against characters as artists, until we have something
>> better to handle it (ie, "roles").  I'm only against "Steve Bar (John
>> Foo)" bogus artists which combine character and performer into a new,
>> but bogus, "role + performer" artist.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>
> If you say so. To me, character as artist is only marginally better than
> these weird combinations.
>
> ~Mika
>
> _______________________________________________
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> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>

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