Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
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Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by Tim Boucher
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This subject is even touchier than cats (!) but not taboo, so here goes:
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100210/full/463718a.html Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan Note the mention at the end of the article, reporting that Daniel Rainsong has "filed a formal complaint earlier this month alleging ethical and financial misconduct, because biologists he approached would not come with him to the Sabine region to confirm the sighting so that he could collect a $50,000 reward." The reporting here is somewhat lacking, though it could have been editorial snipping that leaves us wondering --- Does this mean he filed a lawsuit? If so, where? State court? Which state? Federal court? Which one? There is no legal cause of action for ethical misconduct in the United States. There is no legal cause of action for a refusal to do something you have no obligation to do. As a former attorney, I'd be astonished and aghast to learn that any attorney filed such an lawsuit. If not a lawsuit, then what the heck is a "formal complaint?" Who was it filed against and in what forum? Ellen Paul Bethesda MD BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by Wayne Weber
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Birdchatters,
So Daniel Rainsong is alleging ethical and financial misconduct because biologists would not come with him to investigate his reported Ivory-bill sighting? I think not. However, it seems to me that there is misconduct-- and a huge waste of taxpayers' money-- in spending $14 million on a recovery plan for a species which is clearly extinct, at least in the USA, with no verifiable sightings in more than half a century. The $14 million could have been far better spent on preparing recovery plans, or implementing them, for species still known to exist, and for which there is some real hope of recovery. Somebody's head should roll for allowing $14 million to be spent on an Ivory-bill recovery plan. I thought that recovery plans were supposed to be based on demonstrable scientific facts, not on shaky evidence, rumour, and speculation. It is deplorable that the hype surrounding the Ivory-billed Woodpecker seems to have warped the judgment of even some professional biologists to the point where they seem incapable of distinguishing fact from fiction. Just the opinion of one professional ornithologist with more than 40 years' professional experience... Wayne C. Weber, Ph.D. Delta, BC contopus@... -----Original Message----- From: National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line) [mailto:BIRDCHAT@...] On Behalf Of Tim Boucher Sent: February-10-10 12:42 PM To: BIRDCHAT@... Subject: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan This subject is even touchier than cats (!) but not taboo, so here goes: http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100210/full/463718a.html Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan Note the mention at the end of the article, reporting that Daniel Rainsong has "filed a formal complaint earlier this month alleging ethical and financial misconduct, because biologists he approached would not come with him to the Sabine region to confirm the sighting so that he could collect a $50,000 reward." The reporting here is somewhat lacking, though it could have been editorial snipping that leaves us wondering --- Does this mean he filed a lawsuit? If so, where? State court? Which state? Federal court? Which one? There is no legal cause of action for ethical misconduct in the United States. There is no legal cause of action for a refusal to do something you have no obligation to do. As a former attorney, I'd be astonished and aghast to learn that any attorney filed such an lawsuit. If not a lawsuit, then what the heck is a "formal complaint?" Who was it filed against and in what forum? Ellen Paul Bethesda MD BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by Diane Dubois
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The Ivory-billed Woodpecker is not extinct according to those "warped" enough
to have done the unheard of..........that is get into the field in SPECIFIC areas of the SE US. If you have some field data supporting extinction please present it. Although we are impressed with your "resume" and precipient opinion there are many others that eclipse your knowledge in video artifact analysis (AR Video, FL Videos and LA videos), avifauna of SE forests and in avian acoustical survey methods RESULTING IN EVIDENCE. Pending your data of others on some/all the following: where you failed to find an IBWO, and exact methods what animal is kenting in widely disjunct areas in SE with large DBH trees what animal is double knocking back to played DKs in disjunct SE US areas where the PIWO can be found with a wing beat Hz of 8.5, 4 seconds, post takeoff Until then you will excuse us in looking at actual field data, videos and recordings rather than opinions. Its conceded that there was some $ waste. Some of us warned via comment on the IBWO Recovery Plan years ago that certain methods and a concentation on Arkansas, via Cornell's and "Mueller" types' opinions, was an error. The use of copters by Rideout...a longshot, when a wary species is involved. This picture chase and reward was also ill advised. In the silly category its noted you are not a US citizen but are complaining about US taxes. Thanks for the concern but is this a recently developed campaign by you to reform waste in the US? Do you have any prior art in US tax reform matters or is there a specific funding problem that makes you biased on IBWO subject matter? thanks, Fred Virrazzi NJ (with occasional, but formal wandering to the SE US) edited ----- Original Message ---- From: Wayne Weber contopus@... it seems to me that there is misconduct-- and a huge waste of taxpayers' money-- in spending $14 million on a recovery plan for a species which is clearly extinct, at least in the USA, with no verifiable sightings in more than half a century. The $14 million could have been far better spent on preparing recovery plans, or implementing them, for species still known to exist, and for which there is some real hope of recovery. Somebody's head should roll for allowing $14 million to be spent on an Ivory-bill recovery plan. It is deplorable that the hype surrounding the Ivory-billed Woodpecker seems to have warped the judgment of even some professional biologists to the point where they seem incapable of distinguishing fact from fiction. Just the opinion of one professional ornithologist with more than 40 years' professional experience... Wayne C. Weber, Ph.D. Delta, BC contopus@... BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by Barry K. MacKay
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I think it is impossible to prove that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is
extinct...how do you prove a negative...I don't know that I can prove my own birthdate...all I have are some documents that derive from information that I was too young to independently verify at the time. I do think, though, that in terms of proving that a species unseen clearly for so long a time there are some standards of proof that could be met. See, for example, <http://www.orientalbirdclub.org/publications/forktail/14pdfs/King-Owlet.pdf > for information on how the Forest Owlet was proved to not be extinct. I think the search is worth conducting, and I'm all in favour of protecting potential habitat, but just as I can't explain the various phenomena that have convinced people that UFOs do exist or that there are Bigfoots in southern BC and the western U.S., or life after death, neither am I convinced. I don't think that the acquisition of clearer evidence is unreasonable; in fact, given the number of people presumably looking. But if I were depend on personal field data to support the theory that a species were extinct, I could say that there are several species I've searched for in the habitat where they were previously seen, and failed to find them. And yet, since others have, I know they aren't. (I'm thinking, for one of many examples, of the time I scoured the exact site of a major study of the species to find the Wrenthrush, Zeledonia coronata, briefly glimpsed a tailless looking tiny bird flit through the rain but never really could say I saw it...and yet surely that does not prove it was at that time extinct<G>). Barry Barry Kent MacKay Markham, Ontario, Canada -----Original Message----- From: National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line) [mailto:BIRDCHAT@...] On Behalf Of Diane Dubois Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:34 AM To: BIRDCHAT@... Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan The Ivory-billed Woodpecker is not extinct according to those "warped" enough to have done the unheard of..........that is get into the field in SPECIFIC areas of the SE US. If you have some field data supporting extinction please present it. Although we are impressed with your "resume" and precipient opinion there are many others that eclipse your knowledge in video artifact analysis (AR Video, FL Videos and LA videos), avifauna of SE forests and in avian acoustical survey methods RESULTING IN EVIDENCE. Pending your data of others on some/all the following: where you failed to find an IBWO, and exact methods what animal is kenting in widely disjunct areas in SE with large DBH trees what animal is double knocking back to played DKs in disjunct SE US areas where the PIWO can be found with a wing beat Hz of 8.5, 4 seconds, post takeoff Until then you will excuse us in looking at actual field data, videos and recordings rather than opinions. Its conceded that there was some $ waste. Some of us warned via comment on the IBWO Recovery Plan years ago that certain methods and a concentation on Arkansas, via Cornell's and "Mueller" types' opinions, was an error. The use of copters by Rideout...a longshot, when a wary species is involved. This picture chase and reward was also ill advised. In the silly category its noted you are not a US citizen but are complaining about US taxes. Thanks for the concern but is this a recently developed campaign by you to reform waste in the US? Do you have any prior art in US tax reform matters or is there a specific funding problem that makes you biased on IBWO subject matter? thanks, Fred Virrazzi NJ (with occasional, but formal wandering to the SE US) edited ----- Original Message ---- From: Wayne Weber contopus@... it seems to me that there is misconduct-- and a huge waste of taxpayers' money-- in spending $14 million on a recovery plan for a species which is clearly extinct, at least in the USA, with no verifiable sightings in more than half a century. The $14 million could have been far better spent on preparing recovery plans, or implementing them, for species still known to exist, and for which there is some real hope of recovery. Somebody's head should roll for allowing $14 million to be spent on an Ivory-bill recovery plan. It is deplorable that the hype surrounding the Ivory-billed Woodpecker seems to have warped the judgment of even some professional biologists to the point where they seem incapable of distinguishing fact from fiction. Just the opinion of one professional ornithologist with more than 40 years' professional experience... Wayne C. Weber, Ph.D. Delta, BC contopus@... BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by Dr Ronald Orenstein
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As Barry knows, I am a great believer in the phenomenon of "temporary extinction", which I am convinced accounts for the complete disappearance of highly desirable birds from eminently suitable areas on the days that I happen to be there looking for them.
Ronald Orenstein 1825 Shady Creek Court Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2 Canada ----- Original Message ---- From: Barry K. MacKay <mimus@...> To: BIRDCHAT@... Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 10:34:06 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan I think it is impossible to prove that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is extinct...how do you prove a negative...I don't know that I can prove my own birthdate...all I have are some documents that derive from information that I was too young to independently verify at the time. I do think, though, that in terms of proving that a species unseen clearly for so long a time there are some standards of proof that could be met. See, for example, <http://www.orientalbirdclub.org/publications/forktail/14pdfs/King-Owlet.pdf > for information on how the Forest Owlet was proved to not be extinct. I think the search is worth conducting, and I'm all in favour of protecting potential habitat, but just as I can't explain the various phenomena that have convinced people that UFOs do exist or that there are Bigfoots in southern BC and the western U.S., or life after death, neither am I convinced. I don't think that the acquisition of clearer evidence is unreasonable; in fact, given the number of people presumably looking. But if I were depend on personal field data to support the theory that a species were extinct, I could say that there are several species I've searched for in the habitat where they were previously seen, and failed to find them. And yet, since others have, I know they aren't. (I'm thinking, for one of many examples, of the time I scoured the exact site of a major study of the species to find the Wrenthrush, Zeledonia coronata, briefly glimpsed a tailless looking tiny bird flit through the rain but never really could say I saw it...and yet surely that does not prove it was at that time extinct<G>). Barry Barry Kent MacKay Markham, Ontario, Canada -----Original Message----- From: National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line) [mailto:BIRDCHAT@...] On Behalf Of Diane Dubois Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:34 AM To: BIRDCHAT@... Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan The Ivory-billed Woodpecker is not extinct according to those "warped" enough to have done the unheard of..........that is get into the field in SPECIFIC areas of the SE US. If you have some field data supporting extinction please present it. Although we are impressed with your "resume" and precipient opinion there are many others that eclipse your knowledge in video artifact analysis (AR Video, FL Videos and LA videos), avifauna of SE forests and in avian acoustical survey methods RESULTING IN EVIDENCE. Pending your data of others on some/all the following: where you failed to find an IBWO, and exact methods what animal is kenting in widely disjunct areas in SE with large DBH trees what animal is double knocking back to played DKs in disjunct SE US areas where the PIWO can be found with a wing beat Hz of 8.5, 4 seconds, post takeoff Until then you will excuse us in looking at actual field data, videos and recordings rather than opinions. Its conceded that there was some $ waste. Some of us warned via comment on the IBWO Recovery Plan years ago that certain methods and a concentation on Arkansas, via Cornell's and "Mueller" types' opinions, was an error. The use of copters by Rideout...a longshot, when a wary species is involved. This picture chase and reward was also ill advised. In the silly category its noted you are not a US citizen but are complaining about US taxes. Thanks for the concern but is this a recently developed campaign by you to reform waste in the US? Do you have any prior art in US tax reform matters or is there a specific funding problem that makes you biased on IBWO subject matter? thanks, Fred Virrazzi NJ (with occasional, but formal wandering to the SE US) edited ----- Original Message ---- From: Wayne Weber contopus@... it seems to me that there is misconduct-- and a huge waste of taxpayers' money-- in spending $14 million on a recovery plan for a species which is clearly extinct, at least in the USA, with no verifiable sightings in more than half a century. The $14 million could have been far better spent on preparing recovery plans, or implementing them, for species still known to exist, and for which there is some real hope of recovery. Somebody's head should roll for allowing $14 million to be spent on an Ivory-bill recovery plan. It is deplorable that the hype surrounding the Ivory-billed Woodpecker seems to have warped the judgment of even some professional biologists to the point where they seem incapable of distinguishing fact from fiction. Just the opinion of one professional ornithologist with more than 40 years' professional experience... Wayne C. Weber, Ph.D. Delta, BC contopus@... BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by Diane Dubois
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Hello Barry, have to get off this chat account and get to mine, but briefly
1) I used the phrase---- do you have any data to SUPPORT the extinction hypothesis for IBWO. Support not prove. Most us of know you cannot prove extinction yet its brought up repeatedly by one camp as an excuse for their lack of data. It's an inappropriate, weak and convenient, self serving excuse for skeptics to shoot from their armchairs in Canada, the United Kingdom, ME, MN, CT etc.. Extinction is a hypothesis that has been PROVEN wrong repeatedly with this species. The species has/had a low detection rate even when we all agree it was extant. The proponents of such an important hypothesis as extinction have a duty to conservation to provide details of their field work. They are not going to be given a carte blanche pass on adhering to the basic scientific protocol to research a hyotheses. Also see logicaL flaws in the constant, poor analogy of >>I can't explain the various phenomena that have convinced people that UFOs do exist or that there are Bigfoots in southern BC<<<. There is formal video, audio, more evidence and data on actual animals Barry, as follows. Please do not steer us off topic. There ARE animals in very select areas of the Chocatawhatchee, AR, FL, LA, etc., that are kenting and double knocking back during certain formal field work projects. In addition there are video tapes of large woodpeckers with very high wing beat frequencies and excessive white in the wrong places for PIWO. There is an animal with a very limited an heterogenous distribution in the SE US producing kents and Camphephilus-like double knocks. Just because you and others are not curious about what is making these noises, that just coincidentally often come from areas where some are swearing to IBWO sightings does not mean the rest of us are not very suspicious about this unsupported extinction hypothesis. Please help us in an exact fashion understand what animal is on these recordings, videos, the 5 minute Kulivan sightings, sightings with with all black heads, why Tobalske and many others see probable IBWO in the AR and LA videos, the hundred plus birders/outdoorsman that have had sightings etc, etc. tks Fred V. ----- Original Message ---- From: Barry K. MacKay <mimus@...> Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 10:34:06 AM Subject: RE: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan I think it is impossible to prove that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is extinct...how do you prove a negative...I don't know that I can prove my own birthdate...all I have are some documents that derive from information that I was too young to independently verify at the time. I do think, though, that in terms of proving that a species unseen clearly for so long a time there are some standards of proof that could be met. See, for example, <http://www.orientalbirdclub.org/publications/forktail/14pdfs/King-Owlet.pdf > for information on how the Forest Owlet was proved to not be extinct. I think the search is worth conducting, and I'm all in favour of protecting potential habitat, but just as I can't explain the various phenomena that have convinced people that UFOs do exist or that there are Bigfoots in southern BC and the western U.S., or life after death, neither am I convinced. I don't think that the acquisition of clearer evidence is unreasonable; in fact, given the number of people presumably looking. But if I were depend on personal field data to support the theory that a species were extinct, I could say that there are several species I've searched for in the habitat where they were previously seen, and failed to find them. And yet, since others have, I know they aren't. (I'm thinking, for one of many examples, of the time I scoured the exact site of a major study of the species to find the Wrenthrush, Zeledonia coronata, briefly glimpsed a tailless looking tiny bird flit through the rain but never really could say I saw it...and yet surely that does not prove it was at that time extinct<G>). Barry Barry Kent MacKay Markham, Ontario, Canada -----Original Message----- From: National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line) [mailto:BIRDCHAT@...] On Behalf Of Diane Dubois Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:34 AM To: BIRDCHAT@... Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan The Ivory-billed Woodpecker is not extinct according to those "warped" enough to have done the unheard of..........that is get into the field in SPECIFIC areas of the SE US. If you have some field data supporting extinction please present it. Although we are impressed with your "resume" and precipient opinion there are many others that eclipse your knowledge in video artifact analysis (AR Video, FL Videos and LA videos), avifauna of SE forests and in avian acoustical survey methods RESULTING IN EVIDENCE. Pending your data of others on some/all the following: where you failed to find an IBWO, and exact methods what animal is kenting in widely disjunct areas in SE with large DBH trees what animal is double knocking back to played DKs in disjunct SE US areas where the PIWO can be found with a wing beat Hz of 8.5, 4 seconds, post takeoff Until then you will excuse us in looking at actual field data, videos and recordings rather than opinions. Its conceded that there was some $ waste. Some of us warned via comment on the IBWO Recovery Plan years ago that certain methods and a concentation on Arkansas, via Cornell's and "Mueller" types' opinions, was an error. The use of copters by Rideout...a longshot, when a wary species is involved. This picture chase and reward was also ill advised. In the silly category its noted you are not a US citizen but are complaining about US taxes. Thanks for the concern but is this a recently developed campaign by you to reform waste in the US? Do you have any prior art in US tax reform matters or is there a specific funding problem that makes you biased on IBWO subject matter? thanks, Fred Virrazzi NJ (with occasional, but formal wandering to the SE US) edited ----- Original Message ---- From: Wayne Weber contopus@... it seems to me that there is misconduct-- and a huge waste of taxpayers' money-- in spending $14 million on a recovery plan for a species which is clearly extinct, at least in the USA, with no verifiable sightings in more than half a century. The $14 million could have been far better spent on preparing recovery plans, or implementing them, for species still known to exist, and for which there is some real hope of recovery. Somebody's head should roll for allowing $14 million to be spent on an Ivory-bill recovery plan. It is deplorable that the hype surrounding the Ivory-billed Woodpecker seems to have warped the judgment of even some professional biologists to the point where they seem incapable of distinguishing fact from fiction. Just the opinion of one professional ornithologist with more than 40 years' professional experience... Wayne C. Weber, Ph.D. Delta, BC contopus@... BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by Stephen Hult-2
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Folks:
Let's have some civility here. Perhaps it's time to get off this Ivory-billed Woodpecker thread. I'm getting tired of the ad hominem attacks--e.g. "its noted you are not a US citizen ". I'm not the only one you are going to drive away. Stephen Hult Annapolis Maryland. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diane Dubois" <stmarkssquare@...> To: <BIRDCHAT@...> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan The Ivory-billed Woodpecker is not extinct according to those "warped" enough to have done the unheard of..........that is get into the field in SPECIFIC areas of the SE US. If you have some field data supporting extinction please present it. Although we are impressed with your "resume" and precipient opinion there are many others that eclipse your knowledge in video artifact analysis (AR Video, FL Videos and LA videos), avifauna of SE forests and in avian acoustical survey methods RESULTING IN EVIDENCE. Pending your data of others on some/all the following: where you failed to find an IBWO, and exact methods what animal is kenting in widely disjunct areas in SE with large DBH trees what animal is double knocking back to played DKs in disjunct SE US areas where the PIWO can be found with a wing beat Hz of 8.5, 4 seconds, post takeoff Until then you will excuse us in looking at actual field data, videos and recordings rather than opinions. Its conceded that there was some $ waste. Some of us warned via comment on the IBWO Recovery Plan years ago that certain methods and a concentation on Arkansas, via Cornell's and "Mueller" types' opinions, was an error. The use of copters by Rideout...a longshot, when a wary species is involved. This picture chase and reward was also ill advised. In the silly category its noted you are not a US citizen but are complaining about US taxes. Thanks for the concern but is this a recently developed campaign by you to reform waste in the US? Do you have any prior art in US tax reform matters or is there a specific funding problem that makes you biased on IBWO subject matter? thanks, Fred Virrazzi NJ (with occasional, but formal wandering to the SE US) edited ----- Original Message ---- From: Wayne Weber contopus@... it seems to me that there is misconduct-- and a huge waste of taxpayers' money-- in spending $14 million on a recovery plan for a species which is clearly extinct, at least in the USA, with no verifiable sightings in more than half a century. The $14 million could have been far better spent on preparing recovery plans, or implementing them, for species still known to exist, and for which there is some real hope of recovery. Somebody's head should roll for allowing $14 million to be spent on an Ivory-bill recovery plan. It is deplorable that the hype surrounding the Ivory-billed Woodpecker seems to have warped the judgment of even some professional biologists to the point where they seem incapable of distinguishing fact from fiction. Just the opinion of one professional ornithologist with more than 40 years' professional experience... Wayne C. Weber, Ph.D. Delta, BC contopus@... BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by Barry K. MacKay
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As I said, there IS good reason to look for Ivory-bills...saying I'm not
curious is, with respect, incorrect, and I apologize for giving that impression. But for saying that the species IS extant requires a degree of proof that obviously varies from person to person, and for some of us it is higher than it is for others, as also applies to Bigfoots and UFOs etc. For example, as an artist used to looking at bird patterns I'd be reluctant to say that videos (all that I have seen being very blurry) show white where it should not be in a Pileated. I've seen crows with white where it should not be, but by gosh, it's there anyway. With regard the sounds, the kent call and the double-knock, in my opinion they warrant investigation, and were I in the right habitat and heard such sounds you can be sure that I would drop everything (well, no, not my camera or binoculars) to investigate. I would be IMMENSELY curious. But I would not say that they prove the bird is there as other sources of these sounds cannot, I believe, be fully ruled out. As to the Ivory-bill being a species that "has/had a low detection rate even when we all agree that it was extant" yes, but that did not prevent excellent photos, even though using equipment far inferior to what is currently available, from being taken, nor has it prevented similar levels of proof for other species also difficult to find in very difficult habitats in the tropics. As to the large number of sightings...I agree...just as I agree that there are large numbers of sightings of UFOs, a point I really do think is relevant. While I am not saying that Ivory-billed Woodpeckers (or alien spacecraft) don't exist, I do find it increasingly difficult to understand why, then, there are still no photos or other proofs of the standard I directed you to. I know people who are willing to believe a virgin gave birth to a child two thousand years ago, based on ancient writings that greatly predate understanding of reproductive biology we now take for granted, and that's fine for them...their standard of proof is very different from mine. It does not make them wrong or me right, or vice versa...but I think it is fair to at least say that for some of us true belief depends on a level of proof not yet provided the Ivory-bill. Such proof could occur, of course, at any time, and to repeat, we (well, you...I'm in the wrong place) should keep looking. If I am ever in the right place, I will too, but meanwhile, I am in the camp of those who are waiting for more proof before accepting as fact what I devoutly hope to be true, that the species still exists. Thanks, Barry Barry Kent MacKay Markham, Ontario, Canada -----Original Message----- From: stmarkssquare@... [mailto:stmarkssquare@...] Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 11:29 AM To: Barry K. MacKay; stmarkssquare@...; BIRDCHAT@... Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan Hello Barry, have to get off this chat account and get to mine, but briefly 1) I used the phrase---- do you have any data to SUPPORT the extinction hypothesis for IBWO. Support not prove. Most us of know you cannot prove extinction yet its brought up repeatedly by one camp as an excuse for their lack of data. It's an inappropriate, weak and convenient, self serving excuse for skeptics to shoot from their armchairs in Canada, the United Kingdom, ME, MN, CT etc.. Extinction is a hypothesis that has been PROVEN wrong repeatedly with this species. The species has/had a low detection rate even when we all agree it was extant. The proponents of such an important hypothesis as extinction have a duty to conservation to provide details of their field work. They are not going to be given a carte blanche pass on adhering to the basic scientific protocol to research a hyotheses. Also see logicaL flaws in the constant, poor analogy of >>I can't explain the various phenomena that have convinced people that UFOs do exist or that there are Bigfoots in southern BC<<<. There is formal video, audio, more evidence and data on actual animals Barry, as follows. Please do not steer us off topic. There ARE animals in very select areas of the Chocatawhatchee, AR, FL, LA, etc., that are kenting and double knocking back during certain formal field work projects. In addition there are video tapes of large woodpeckers with very high wing beat frequencies and excessive white in the wrong places for PIWO. There is an animal with a very limited an heterogenous distribution in the SE US producing kents and Camphephilus-like double knocks. Just because you and others are not curious about what is making these noises, that just coincidentally often come from areas where some are swearing to IBWO sightings does not mean the rest of us are not very suspicious about this unsupported extinction hypothesis. Please help us in an exact fashion understand what animal is on these recordings, videos, the 5 minute Kulivan sightings, sightings with with all black heads, why Tobalske and many others see probable IBWO in the AR and LA videos, the hundred plus birders/outdoorsman that have had sightings etc, etc. tks Fred V. ----- Original Message ---- From: Barry K. MacKay <mimus@...> Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 10:34:06 AM Subject: RE: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan I think it is impossible to prove that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is extinct...how do you prove a negative...I don't know that I can prove my own birthdate...all I have are some documents that derive from information that I was too young to independently verify at the time. I do think, though, that in terms of proving that a species unseen clearly for so long a time there are some standards of proof that could be met. See, for example, <http://www.orientalbirdclub.org/publications/forktail/14pdfs/King-Owlet.pdf > for information on how the Forest Owlet was proved to not be extinct. I think the search is worth conducting, and I'm all in favour of protecting potential habitat, but just as I can't explain the various phenomena that have convinced people that UFOs do exist or that there are Bigfoots in southern BC and the western U.S., or life after death, neither am I convinced. I don't think that the acquisition of clearer evidence is unreasonable; in fact, given the number of people presumably looking. But if I were depend on personal field data to support the theory that a species were extinct, I could say that there are several species I've searched for in the habitat where they were previously seen, and failed to find them. And yet, since others have, I know they aren't. (I'm thinking, for one of many examples, of the time I scoured the exact site of a major study of the species to find the Wrenthrush, Zeledonia coronata, briefly glimpsed a tailless looking tiny bird flit through the rain but never really could say I saw it...and yet surely that does not prove it was at that time extinct<G>). Barry Barry Kent MacKay Markham, Ontario, Canada -----Original Message----- From: National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line) [mailto:BIRDCHAT@...] On Behalf Of Diane Dubois Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:34 AM To: BIRDCHAT@... Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan The Ivory-billed Woodpecker is not extinct according to those "warped" enough to have done the unheard of..........that is get into the field in SPECIFIC areas of the SE US. If you have some field data supporting extinction please present it. Although we are impressed with your "resume" and precipient opinion there are many others that eclipse your knowledge in video artifact analysis (AR Video, FL Videos and LA videos), avifauna of SE forests and in avian acoustical survey methods RESULTING IN EVIDENCE. Pending your data of others on some/all the following: where you failed to find an IBWO, and exact methods what animal is kenting in widely disjunct areas in SE with large DBH trees what animal is double knocking back to played DKs in disjunct SE US areas where the PIWO can be found with a wing beat Hz of 8.5, 4 seconds, post takeoff Until then you will excuse us in looking at actual field data, videos and recordings rather than opinions. Its conceded that there was some $ waste. Some of us warned via comment on the IBWO Recovery Plan years ago that certain methods and a concentation on Arkansas, via Cornell's and "Mueller" types' opinions, was an error. The use of copters by Rideout...a longshot, when a wary species is involved. This picture chase and reward was also ill advised. In the silly category its noted you are not a US citizen but are complaining about US taxes. Thanks for the concern but is this a recently developed campaign by you to reform waste in the US? Do you have any prior art in US tax reform matters or is there a specific funding problem that makes you biased on IBWO subject matter? thanks, Fred Virrazzi NJ (with occasional, but formal wandering to the SE US) edited ----- Original Message ---- From: Wayne Weber contopus@... it seems to me that there is misconduct-- and a huge waste of taxpayers' money-- in spending $14 million on a recovery plan for a species which is clearly extinct, at least in the USA, with no verifiable sightings in more than half a century. The $14 million could have been far better spent on preparing recovery plans, or implementing them, for species still known to exist, and for which there is some real hope of recovery. Somebody's head should roll for allowing $14 million to be spent on an Ivory-bill recovery plan. It is deplorable that the hype surrounding the Ivory-billed Woodpecker seems to have warped the judgment of even some professional biologists to the point where they seem incapable of distinguishing fact from fiction. Just the opinion of one professional ornithologist with more than 40 years' professional experience... Wayne C. Weber, Ph.D. Delta, BC contopus@... BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by David M. Gascoigne
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Nothing seems to engender hostility quite so much as the debate over the alleged continued existence of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker, but to infer that one's nationality precludes one from weighing in on, having an interest in or contributing to a discussion of conservation does a disservice to everyone. Roger Tory Peterson was renowned for the beneficial effect he had on conservation and species protection in Spain, Kenya, Antarctica, Bolivia and elsewhere, and I think that Robert S. Ridgely would be judged by all to have rendered substantial benefit to conservation in Ecuador and other parts of South America. I could cite other examples, but the point is made.
Please, let's discuss issues in a civil fashion without name-calling or xenophobic excess. In the meantime it would be amazing how positive an impact a good picture, in this age of high tech equipment with motion sensitive cameras etc., would have on this controversial topic. David M. Gascoigne, 606 Osprey Drive, Waterloo, ON Canada N2V 2A5 519 725-0866, Fax 519 725-1176, blog: www.travelswithbirds.blogspot.com > Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:36:54 -0500 > From: Stevehult@... > Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan > To: BIRDCHAT@... > > Folks: > > Let's have some civility here. Perhaps it's time to get off this > Ivory-billed Woodpecker thread. I'm getting tired of the ad hominem > attacks--e.g. "its noted you are not a US citizen ". I'm not the only one > you are going to drive away. > > Stephen Hult > Annapolis Maryland. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Diane Dubois" <stmarkssquare@...> > To: <BIRDCHAT@...> > Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:33 AM > Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan > > > The Ivory-billed Woodpecker is not extinct according to those "warped" > enough > to have done the unheard of..........that is get into the field in SPECIFIC > areas of > the SE US. If you have some field data supporting extinction please > present it. > > Although we are impressed with your "resume" and precipient opinion there > are many others that eclipse your knowledge in video artifact analysis > (AR Video, FL Videos and LA videos), avifauna of SE forests and in avian > acoustical survey methods RESULTING IN EVIDENCE. > > Pending your data of others on some/all the following: > where you failed to find an IBWO, and exact methods > what animal is kenting in widely disjunct areas in SE with > large DBH trees > what animal is double knocking back to played DKs in disjunct > SE US areas > where the PIWO can be found with a wing beat Hz of 8.5, > 4 seconds, post takeoff > > Until then you will excuse us in looking at actual field data, videos > and recordings rather than opinions. > > Its conceded that there was some $ waste. Some of us warned via comment on > the IBWO Recovery Plan years ago that certain methods and a concentation on > Arkansas, via Cornell's and "Mueller" > types' opinions, was an error. The use of copters by Rideout...a longshot, > when a wary species is involved. This picture chase and reward was also ill > advised. > > In the silly category its noted you are not a US citizen but are complaining > about US > taxes. Thanks for the concern but is this a recently developed campaign by > you to > reform waste in the US? Do you have any prior art in US tax reform matters > or is there a specific funding problem that makes you biased on IBWO subject > matter? > > > thanks, > > Fred Virrazzi > NJ > (with occasional, but formal wandering to the SE US) > > edited > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Wayne Weber contopus@... > > it seems to me that there is misconduct-- and a huge > waste of taxpayers' money-- in spending $14 million on a recovery plan for a > species which is clearly extinct, at least in the USA, with no verifiable > sightings in more than half a century. > > The $14 million could have been far better spent on preparing recovery > plans, or implementing them, for species still known to exist, and for which > there is some real hope of recovery. Somebody's head should roll for > allowing $14 million to be spent on an Ivory-bill recovery plan. > > It is deplorable that the hype surrounding the Ivory-billed Woodpecker seems > to > have warped the judgment of even some professional biologists to the point > where they seem incapable of distinguishing fact from fiction. > > Just the opinion of one professional ornithologist with more than 40 years' > professional experience... > > > Wayne C. Weber, Ph.D. > Delta, BC > contopus@... > > > > > BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html > > BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html _________________________________________________________________ BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by Joseph Morlan-2
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On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:33:36 -0800, Diane Dubois <stmarkssquare@...>
wrote: > If you have some field data supporting� extinction please >present it.� � There has been considerable useful analysis of all the available evidence and the following peer reviewed papers are directly on topic: Reference: Roberts, D.L., Elphick, C.S., Reed, J.M. (2010) Identifying anomalous reports of putatively extinct species and why it matters. Conservation Biology, 24, 189-196. This paper analyses sightings of Eskimo Curlew, Ivory-billed Woodpecker, Nukupu`u, and O`ahu `Alauahio and calculates their probability of extinction via statistical analysis. Based on the data, the Ivory-billed Woodpecker likely became extinct around 1950. A similar conclusion was reached by McKelvey et al. (2008) who stated, "Although it is always possible to invent rationales to explain the lack of conclusive evidence (e.g., Bivings 2006), available evidence indicates that the ivory-billed woodpecker probably became extinct in the southeastern United States by the middle of the 20th century." Reference: McKelvey, Kevin S.; Aubry, Keith B.; and Schwartz, Michael K. (2008). Using anecdotal occurrence data for rare or elusive species: the illusion of reality and a call for evidentiary standards. BioScience. 58(6): 549-555. A PDF of this article is available online for free: http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_other/rmrs_2008_mckelvey_k001.pdf -- Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu SF Birding Classes start Feb.9 http://fog.ccsf.edu/jmorlan/ California Bird Records Committee http://www.californiabirds.org/ Western Field Ornithologists http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/ BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by Wayne Weber
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Birdchatters,
Fred Virrazzi seems to be wondering why I, as a Canadian, am concerned about how money is spent in the US on endangered species recovery. For a start, I spent 4 years in Mississippi, earning my Ph.D. at Mississippi State University under Dr. Jerome A. (Jerry) Jackson. As most of you know, Jerry is an authority on woodpeckers in general and on the Ivory-billed in particular, and author of "In Search of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker". No, I did not study woodpeckers, and I doubt that Jerry would be in complete agreement with my views. However, if I may quote from his book, he did state at one point (page 238) that "The probability of Ivory-bills still existing in the United States or Cuba is slight". I agree. When one considers that most of the southeastern USA is quite heavily populated and that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is a large, wide-ranging, and relatively conspicuous bird, it is difficult to explain why, in more than 50 years, no one has been able to come up with convincing evidence of its continued existence, if in fact it does exist. The evidence produced in numerous supposed sightings so far, including photos, videos, and sound recordings, would not convince the average statewide "Bird Records Committee". This includes the supposed observations in Arkansas in 2003 and 2004, as well as more recent reports. Jerry Jackson himself addresses this topic under the heading "Good Conservation, Bad Science". As to why I am concerned about how money is spent in the U.S.? The Ivory-billed Woodpecker was found only in the U.S.-- and in Cuba, where it is probably also extinct. The loss of this remarkable species would be a huge loss not just for the U.S., but for the world, so I have every right to criticize how money is spent on endangered species recovery in the U.S. (For the record, in Canada, much less money is spent on endangered species recovery (per capita or per species) than in the U.S., so I am not being anti-American-- far from it. The Endangered Species Act in the US came into effect 30 years prior to similar legislation in Canada, and it is a far better piece of legislation.) My main point was that there are dozens of other species and subspecies in the U.S. that are critically endangered, and where recovery is possible, but some of them aren't even officially listed as endangered yet. Unfortunately, most of them don't get the media attention of "glamor birds" like the Ivory-bill, but they may be just as important from a biological viewpoint. To me, it seems like a crime to spend many millions of dollars on a recovery effort for a species which is almost certainly extinct, while ignoring other species which are still known to exist, and which could far better use those funds. Wayne C. Weber Delta, BC contopus@... -----Original Message----- From: National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line) [mailto:BIRDCHAT@...] On Behalf Of Diane Dubois Sent: February-15-10 6:34 AM To: BIRDCHAT@... Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan The Ivory-billed Woodpecker is not extinct according to those "warped" enough to have done the unheard of..........that is get into the field in SPECIFIC areas of the SE US. If you have some field data supporting extinction please present it. Although we are impressed with your "resume" and precipient opinion there are many others that eclipse your knowledge in video artifact analysis (AR Video, FL Videos and LA videos), avifauna of SE forests and in avian acoustical survey methods RESULTING IN EVIDENCE. Pending your data of others on some/all the following: where you failed to find an IBWO, and exact methods what animal is kenting in widely disjunct areas in SE with large DBH trees what animal is double knocking back to played DKs in disjunct SE US areas where the PIWO can be found with a wing beat Hz of 8.5, 4 seconds, post takeoff Until then you will excuse us in looking at actual field data, videos and recordings rather than opinions. Its conceded that there was some $ waste. Some of us warned via comment on the IBWO Recovery Plan years ago that certain methods and a concentation on Arkansas, via Cornell's and "Mueller" types' opinions, was an error. The use of copters by Rideout...a longshot, when a wary species is involved. This picture chase and reward was also ill advised. In the silly category its noted you are not a US citizen but are complaining about US taxes. Thanks for the concern but is this a recently developed campaign by you to reform waste in the US? Do you have any prior art in US tax reform matters or is there a specific funding problem that makes you biased on IBWO subject matter? thanks, Fred Virrazzi NJ (with occasional, but formal wandering to the SE US) edited ----- Original Message ---- From: Wayne Weber contopus@... it seems to me that there is misconduct-- and a huge waste of taxpayers' money-- in spending $14 million on a recovery plan for a species which is clearly extinct, at least in the USA, with no verifiable sightings in more than half a century. The $14 million could have been far better spent on preparing recovery plans, or implementing them, for species still known to exist, and for which there is some real hope of recovery. Somebody's head should roll for allowing $14 million to be spent on an Ivory-bill recovery plan. It is deplorable that the hype surrounding the Ivory-billed Woodpecker seems to have warped the judgment of even some professional biologists to the point where they seem incapable of distinguishing fact from fiction. Just the opinion of one professional ornithologist with more than 40 years' professional experience... Wayne C. Weber, Ph.D. Delta, BC contopus@... BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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February 12 & 13 A.O.U. San Diego pelagic trip report
by Terry Hunefeld-4
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Greetings,
Two A.O.U. pelagic trip from San Diego on Friday and Saturday, February 12 & 13, 2010 visited the Nine Mile Bank and the Coronados Islands. Highlights included a totally unexpected Red-Billed Tropicbird, an expected wintering Long-tailed Duck, lots of Brown Boobies and oystercatchers, 3 species of Shearwater, 4 species of alcid, 3 species of loons, 3 species of cormorant, 2 species of jaeger, 2 species of whales, 4 species of dolphin, 2 species of seal and a variety of rocky shorebirds. The complete trip report including photos, species lists, trip tracks and more details are posted at http://www.socalbirding.com/tripreports/sandiegofeb1213aou.html W. Terry Hunefeld, Encinitas Life is short. Seabird often. In memory of Luke Cole “Come on out with us to see what’s out there.” Southern California Seabirding Trips by: Buena Vista Audubon Society http://www.SoCalBirding.com Los Coronados Islands & Nine Mile Bank all the way to the edge of the Continental Shelf ---- W. Terry Hunefeld San Diego Life is short. Bird often. reply to: thunefeld@... ---- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by Dr Ronald Orenstein
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Wayne raises an important point that has nothing to do with whether the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is alive or dead.
This is a good lead-in, in fact, to a note about an extremely important book published in 2009, Conservation Biology of Hawaiian Forest Birds: Implications for Island Avifauna, edited by Thane Pratt et al and published by yale University Press. The book is an absolute must for anyone interested (or, like me, fascinated) by the birds of Hawaii. The relevance of the book to this post is in the final chapter, called "Can Hawaiian Forest Birds be Saved?". The chapter points out that, although the birds of Hawaii include the highest number of endangered species in the United States by far, the amount of government money spent on their conservation does not even begin to reflect this. The chapter reports on a study of total government recovery expenditures on all US listed bird species for 1996 to 2004, that showed that although the birds of Hawaii amounted to a third of the species listed they received only 4.1% of the money. To quote the chapter, "in other words, mainland endangered birds received 15 times more funding on average despite being assigned similar priority rankings." The Red-cockaded Woodpecker received three times the funding that went to all 31 Hawaiian listed birds combined -- and this is a bird that nobody doubts is (a) real and (b) needs conservation money spent on it. I am sure (although I, too, am not a United States citizen) that I would be just as thrilled as anyone else to see the Ivory-Bill genuinely come back from the dead, but if I had to make a choice between spending money to check that out and spending money to make sure that such wonderful species as the 'Akiapola'au do not slip into extinction (as another Hawaiian bird, the Po'o Uli, has apparently done in just the last few years), I would certainly want my money to be heading across the Pacific. I am sobered by the fact that, between my first birding visit to Hawaii in 1968 and my second in 1997, at least five full species (including one, the Kama'o, that I actually heard singing in the Alaka'i Swamp of Kauai in 1968) had become extinct. We are facing the loss of an entire, utterly unique avifauna. Where should that come in American spending priorities? I'm not an American -- perhaps I shouldn't say. What do others think? Ronald Orenstein 1825 Shady Creek Court Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2 Canada ----- Original Message ---- From: Wayne Weber <contopus@...> To: BIRDCHAT@... Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 4:01:54 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan Birdchatters, Fred Virrazzi seems to be wondering why I, as a Canadian, am concerned about how money is spent in the US on endangered species recovery. For a start, I spent 4 years in Mississippi, earning my Ph.D. at Mississippi State University under Dr. Jerome A. (Jerry) Jackson. As most of you know, Jerry is an authority on woodpeckers in general and on the Ivory-billed in particular, and author of "In Search of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker". No, I did not study woodpeckers, and I doubt that Jerry would be in complete agreement with my views. However, if I may quote from his book, he did state at one point (page 238) that "The probability of Ivory-bills still existing in the United States or Cuba is slight". I agree. When one considers that most of the southeastern USA is quite heavily populated and that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is a large, wide-ranging, and relatively conspicuous bird, it is difficult to explain why, in more than 50 years, no one has been able to come up with convincing evidence of its continued existence, if in fact it does exist. The evidence produced in numerous supposed sightings so far, including photos, videos, and sound recordings, would not convince the average statewide "Bird Records Committee". This includes the supposed observations in Arkansas in 2003 and 2004, as well as more recent reports. Jerry Jackson himself addresses this topic under the heading "Good Conservation, Bad Science". As to why I am concerned about how money is spent in the U.S.? The Ivory-billed Woodpecker was found only in the U.S.-- and in Cuba, where it is probably also extinct. The loss of this remarkable species would be a huge loss not just for the U.S., but for the world, so I have every right to criticize how money is spent on endangered species recovery in the U.S. (For the record, in Canada, much less money is spent on endangered species recovery (per capita or per species) than in the U.S., so I am not being anti-American-- far from it. The Endangered Species Act in the US came into effect 30 years prior to similar legislation in Canada, and it is a far better piece of legislation.) My main point was that there are dozens of other species and subspecies in the U.S. that are critically endangered, and where recovery is possible, but some of them aren't even officially listed as endangered yet. Unfortunately, most of them don't get the media attention of "glamor birds" like the Ivory-bill, but they may be just as important from a biological viewpoint. To me, it seems like a crime to spend many millions of dollars on a recovery effort for a species which is almost certainly extinct, while ignoring other species which are still known to exist, and which could far better use those funds. Wayne C. Weber Delta, BC contopus@... -----Original Message----- From: National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line) [mailto:BIRDCHAT@...] On Behalf Of Diane Dubois Sent: February-15-10 6:34 AM To: BIRDCHAT@... Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan The Ivory-billed Woodpecker is not extinct according to those "warped" enough to have done the unheard of..........that is get into the field in SPECIFIC areas of the SE US. If you have some field data supporting extinction please present it. Although we are impressed with your "resume" and precipient opinion there are many others that eclipse your knowledge in video artifact analysis (AR Video, FL Videos and LA videos), avifauna of SE forests and in avian acoustical survey methods RESULTING IN EVIDENCE. Pending your data of others on some/all the following: where you failed to find an IBWO, and exact methods what animal is kenting in widely disjunct areas in SE with large DBH trees what animal is double knocking back to played DKs in disjunct SE US areas where the PIWO can be found with a wing beat Hz of 8.5, 4 seconds, post takeoff Until then you will excuse us in looking at actual field data, videos and recordings rather than opinions. Its conceded that there was some $ waste. Some of us warned via comment on the IBWO Recovery Plan years ago that certain methods and a concentation on Arkansas, via Cornell's and "Mueller" types' opinions, was an error. The use of copters by Rideout...a longshot, when a wary species is involved. This picture chase and reward was also ill advised. In the silly category its noted you are not a US citizen but are complaining about US taxes. Thanks for the concern but is this a recently developed campaign by you to reform waste in the US? Do you have any prior art in US tax reform matters or is there a specific funding problem that makes you biased on IBWO subject matter? thanks, Fred Virrazzi NJ (with occasional, but formal wandering to the SE US) edited ----- Original Message ---- From: Wayne Weber contopus@... it seems to me that there is misconduct-- and a huge waste of taxpayers' money-- in spending $14 million on a recovery plan for a species which is clearly extinct, at least in the USA, with no verifiable sightings in more than half a century. The $14 million could have been far better spent on preparing recovery plans, or implementing them, for species still known to exist, and for which there is some real hope of recovery. Somebody's head should roll for allowing $14 million to be spent on an Ivory-bill recovery plan. It is deplorable that the hype surrounding the Ivory-billed Woodpecker seems to have warped the judgment of even some professional biologists to the point where they seem incapable of distinguishing fact from fiction. Just the opinion of one professional ornithologist with more than 40 years' professional experience... Wayne C. Weber, Ph.D. Delta, BC contopus@... BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker Recovery Plan
by Gail Mackiernan
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Hi all --
I agree with Ron, there is a terrible lack of attention given to our most endangered US birds -- which reside in Hawai'i. Several species that we saw easily in 1993 have slipped further into the pit and may soon be gone. It is a painful thing to realize. Yet as Ron reports, only a pittance has been directed towards these unique birds which are, to me as a biologist, as interesting scientifically (and far more interesting esthetically) than the finches of the Galapagos. We had the privilege of birding with Jack Jeffrey (then manager of Hakalau NWR) on the Big Island. Jack said he felt as if "he was presiding at a funeral" as more and more species slipped away unobserved and with little or no effort made to try and save them. We went looking for the striking grosbeak-like O'u, which at that time had not been seen for 6 years, in some of its last known haunts. Needless to say, no joy. However the speed of its demise was emphasized by the display, at Volcanoes NP Visitor's Center, of its photo as "a native bird found in the park." If you google "O'u" today you will still get web sites that cite it being "found on the Big Island of Hawai'i" even though it has now probably been extinct for over 20 years. Jack also told us of his own fleeting glimpse of the last recorded O'u, and of the last Kauai O'o (not a drepanid, but another unique Hawaiian taxon, now entirely extinct). This bird, a male, sang futilely for a mate for several years until it vanished after Hurricane Iniki in 1992. (Along with the large Kauai Thrush or Kama'o, which Ron mentions). We were on Kauai a year later and the destruction in the Alakai was tremendous and the areas most affected by Hurricane Iniki were very quiet. If we got to a ravine or low area, however, bird activity was high. Most abundant were Apapane, of which we saw perhaps 60 individuals, over 40% of which were immatures. We saw three I¹iwi, one immature. Three Kaua¹i Creepers, one immature. Over 15 Akeke¹e. We also had similar numbers of Elepaio, about 1/3 of them immatures. We recorded Kaua¹i Amakihi both down in the swamp and up on the ridge trail, 8 in total. Anianiau were also in both locations; a total of 10 were seen. We had one of the first Puaiohi (Small Kauai Thrush) recorded after the hurricane. All of this in one half-day. One would struggle to see some of these species now in several days' time. These are brilliant-plumaged, scientifically unique members of the USA avifauna but have been virtually ignored. Certainly they are not receiving the funding that is needed to stave off the myriad of threats facing them. The government can barely maintain fences around the Palila habitat on the Big Island (to keep out feral goats which they do not have the funds or manpower to eliminate). However progress has been made in captive breeding this group, so perhaps there is some hope. If habitat remains to house them. Like all birders, I would love to see an Ivory-billed Woodpecker. I also hope that they do linger somewhere and will definitely be located. Other species have been re-found after decades with no observations. But I also want the I'iwi, last of the hook-billed honeycreepers, the melon-colored Akepa, the mind-blowing Akia'pola'au to continue to exist. They are not just part of the United State's patrimony, they are world treasures and should be treated as such. Gail Mackiernan Silver Spring, MD BirdChat Guidelines: http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdchat.html |
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