J usage etimates

[Matthew Brand-2]

Are there any statistics on the size of the J user base?

For example, monthly download or base library update statistics? The
community active on the forums is quite small, but every now and then a new
name pops up. I wonder whether downloads increased following the recent
spate of RossetaCode activity.

The reason I ask is because a main objection to using J from various
C++/Python/Matlab advocates is that the user base is too small.
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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Tracy Harms-3]

My impression is that the tricky task of estimating how many people
use J, and how much they use it, is not going to be simplified by
additional data from J Software. As for the data you've expressed an
interest in seeing, I also think such data would not do much to aid
the estimation of how many people are using J.

I personally do not understand why the size of the user base would
count for much in deciding on a language. Perhaps if that sort of
thing were something I found easy to understand, I wouldn't have
learned J in the first place!

--
T

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Matthew Brand <mtthwbrnd@...> wrote:
> Are there any statistics on the size of the J user base?
>...
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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Matthew Brand-2]

"I personally do not understand why the size of the user base would
count for much in deciding on a language."

I do not fully understand the rationale either. One reason given has been
that when expanding, it is easy to find Python or C++ programmers.

Anyhow, using download statistics to estimate user base:
http://tinyurl.com/yjubljv

The method is to subtract the base line download rate from the spikes when a
new release is issued, which gives an estimate of the active user base.
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2009/11/3 Tracy Harms <kaleidic@...>

> My impression is that the tricky task of estimating how many people
> use J, and how much they use it, is not going to be simplified by
> additional data from J Software. As for the data you've expressed an
> interest in seeing, I also think such data would not do much to aid
> the estimation of how many people are using J.
>
> I personally do not understand why the size of the user base would
> count for much in deciding on a language. Perhaps if that sort of
> thing were something I found easy to understand, I wouldn't have
> learned J in the first place!
>
> --
> T
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Matthew Brand <mtthwbrnd@...>
> wrote:
> > Are there any statistics on the size of the J user base?
> >...
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>

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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Robert Raschke-5]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Matthew Brand <mtthwbrnd@...>wrote:

> "I personally do not understand why the size of the user base would
> count for much in deciding on a language."
>
> I do not fully understand the rationale either. One reason given has been
> that when expanding, it is easy to find Python or C++ programmers.
>
>
They way I understand this kind of behaviour by decision makers, is that
there is the want to hire a production line worker (does what they're told,
doesn't cost much, can learn which button to press in one day). But I'm very
cynical ;-)

This usually comes paired with the fear of making the wrong decision. Which
can become extreme when faced with technology that is not easily
"understood". (Marketing can to some extent mitigate such fears, otherwise
Java wouldn't be where it is today!)

While it may be easier to find C++ or Python programmers, finding quality
C++ or Python programmers is going to be a lot harder, as you've got way
more applications to sift through.

Whereas using niche technology usually attracts specialists, hobbyists and
other types of committed people. Their quality of work is usually of a
higher standard, in my opinion. But their personalities can also be more
challenging, also in my opinion :-)

Boils down to quantity vs. quality and tradeoff in effort of management, if
you like.

Enough rambling, back to work,
Robby
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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Matthew Brand-2]

Well, whatever the reasonings, it would be nice to be able to put a number
to the phrase "small user base".


2009/11/3 Robert Raschke <rtrlists@...>

> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Matthew Brand <mtthwbrnd@...
> >wrote:
>
> > "I personally do not understand why the size of the user base would
> > count for much in deciding on a language."
> >
> > I do not fully understand the rationale either. One reason given has been
> > that when expanding, it is easy to find Python or C++ programmers.
> >
> >
> They way I understand this kind of behaviour by decision makers, is that
> there is the want to hire a production line worker (does what they're told,
> doesn't cost much, can learn which button to press in one day). But I'm
> very
> cynical ;-)
>
> This usually comes paired with the fear of making the wrong decision. Which
> can become extreme when faced with technology that is not easily
> "understood". (Marketing can to some extent mitigate such fears, otherwise
> Java wouldn't be where it is today!)
>
> While it may be easier to find C++ or Python programmers, finding quality
> C++ or Python programmers is going to be a lot harder, as you've got way
> more applications to sift through.
>
> Whereas using niche technology usually attracts specialists, hobbyists and
> other types of committed people. Their quality of work is usually of a
> higher standard, in my opinion. But their personalities can also be more
> challenging, also in my opinion :-)
>
> Boils down to quantity vs. quality and tradeoff in effort of management, if
> you like.
>
> Enough rambling, back to work,
> Robby
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>

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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Björn Helgason]

2009/11/3 Matthew Brand <mtthwbrnd@...>:
> Well, whatever the reasonings, it would be nice to be able to put a number
> to the phrase "small user base".

You can put whatever number you like.

One thing is certain and that number is growing and there are all
kinds of signs you can use to notice how it is growing.

If you look over time you can count the number of messages that have
been sent to forums.

Discussions about J are carried out in many forums and news groups and
over the years there are more and more help and lab texts produced in
wikis and there are more and more demos and addons.

If you like it with growth of plants and trees it is not the fastest
growing that are always the best or most beautiful.

The trees that grow slowly become the giants of the woods and add one
more ring each your and outgrow everything else.

J is a branch of APL and as such has been growing steadily for a
number of years before the start of J.

I am very much interested in the next generation of J that will make
it easier to use several J sessions on several machines all over the
world.

Like you would have one main session and send tasks to different machines.

I am sure that facility will make even more people use J without
knowing they are using J.

It is similar to the situation with Linux.

Most people are using Linux every day without knowing that their
questions sent to servers that are running Linux.

Similarly applications you are using could be written in J or APL
without your knowledge of what it is witten in.

So indirectly a lot of people could be APL or J users without knowing it.
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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Matthew Brand-2]

"You can put whatever number you like."

Okay, thanks. I will go with 100 for now. Anybody got a better estimate :-).

"Similarly applications you are using could be written in J or APL
without your knowledge of what it is witten in."
I am more interested in how many people are using J to write programs, not
how many people indirectly come in contact with J.


2009/11/3 Björn Helgason <gosinn@...>

> 2009/11/3 Matthew Brand <mtthwbrnd@...>:
> > Well, whatever the reasonings, it would be nice to be able to put a
> number
> > to the phrase "small user base".
>
> You can put whatever number you like.
>
> One thing is certain and that number is growing and there are all
> kinds of signs you can use to notice how it is growing.
>
> If you look over time you can count the number of messages that have
> been sent to forums.
>
> Discussions about J are carried out in many forums and news groups and
> over the years there are more and more help and lab texts produced in
> wikis and there are more and more demos and addons.
>
> If you like it with growth of plants and trees it is not the fastest
> growing that are always the best or most beautiful.
>
> The trees that grow slowly become the giants of the woods and add one
> more ring each your and outgrow everything else.
>
> J is a branch of APL and as such has been growing steadily for a
> number of years before the start of J.
>
> I am very much interested in the next generation of J that will make
> it easier to use several J sessions on several machines all over the
> world.
>
> Like you would have one main session and send tasks to different machines.
>
> I am sure that facility will make even more people use J without
> knowing they are using J.
>
> It is similar to the situation with Linux.
>
> Most people are using Linux every day without knowing that their
> questions sent to servers that are running Linux.
>
> Similarly applications you are using could be written in J or APL
> without your knowledge of what it is witten in.
>
> So indirectly a lot of people could be APL or J users without knowing it.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>

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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Björn Helgason]

100% is probably a bit high.

It is always difficult to predict and give estimates.

One of the best estimates I heard a long time ago is when asked "how
many people work here?" and answer "about 50%" I always find quite
funny.

When you consider that those who do know J and/or APL are considered
producing solutions to problems 10 times faster than users of most
other languages then whatever number you come up with you can multiply
with 10.

So it is all a game of numbers and statistics that do not tell you very much.

I once heard that statistics is like a bikini because it looks
interesting but hides the most important parts.

2009/11/3 Matthew Brand <mtthwbrnd@...>:

> "You can put whatever number you like."
>
> Okay, thanks. I will go with 100 for now. Anybody got a better estimate :-).
>
> "Similarly applications you are using could be written in J or APL
> without your knowledge of what it is witten in."
> I am more interested in how many people are using J to write programs, not
> how many people indirectly come in contact with J.
>
>
> 2009/11/3 Björn Helgason <gosinn@...>
>
>> 2009/11/3 Matthew Brand <mtthwbrnd@...>:
>> > Well, whatever the reasonings, it would be nice to be able to put a
>> number
>> > to the phrase "small user base".
>>
>> You can put whatever number you like.
>>
>> One thing is certain and that number is growing and there are all
>> kinds of signs you can use to notice how it is growing.
>>
>> If you look over time you can count the number of messages that have
>> been sent to forums.
>>
>> Discussions about J are carried out in many forums and news groups and
>> over the years there are more and more help and lab texts produced in
>> wikis and there are more and more demos and addons.
>>
>> If you like it with growth of plants and trees it is not the fastest
>> growing that are always the best or most beautiful.
>>
>> The trees that grow slowly become the giants of the woods and add one
>> more ring each your and outgrow everything else.
>>
>> J is a branch of APL and as such has been growing steadily for a
>> number of years before the start of J.
>>
>> I am very much interested in the next generation of J that will make
>> it easier to use several J sessions on several machines all over the
>> world.
>>
>> Like you would have one main session and send tasks to different machines.
>>
>> I am sure that facility will make even more people use J without
>> knowing they are using J.
>>
>> It is similar to the situation with Linux.
>>
>> Most people are using Linux every day without knowing that their
>> questions sent to servers that are running Linux.
>>
>> Similarly applications you are using could be written in J or APL
>> without your knowledge of what it is witten in.
>>
>> So indirectly a lot of people could be APL or J users without knowing it.
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

--
Björn Helgason, Verkfræðingur
Fugl&Fiskur ehf,
Þerneyjarsundi 23, Hraunborgum
Po Box 127,801 Selfoss ,
t-póst: gosinn@...
gsm: [phone]
Landslags og skrúðgarðagerð, gröfuþjónusta
http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming


Tæknikunnátta höndlar hið flókna, sköpunargáfa er meistari einfaldleikans

góður kennari getur stigið á tær án þess að glansinn fari af skónum
          /|_      .-----------------------------------.
         ,'  .\  /  | Með léttri lund verður        |
     ,--'    _,'   | Dagurinn í dag                     |
    /       /       | Enn betri en gærdagurinn  |
   (   -.  |        `-----------------------------------'
   |     ) |         (\_ _/)
  (`-.  '--.)       (='.'=)   ♖♘♗♕♔♙
   `. )----'        (")_(") ☃☠
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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Raul Miller-4]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Matthew Brand <mtthwbrnd@...> wrote:
> "You can put whatever number you like."
>
> Okay, thanks. I will go with 100 for now. Anybody got a better estimate :-).

100 users sounds good, at least until we can define what we mean by
"users".

(For example, some people have taught classes in J, and I expect that
more than 100 people have taken classes from people teaching J.)

--
Raul
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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Zsbán Ambrus]

2009/11/3 Björn Helgason <gosinn@...>:
> If you look over time you can count the number of messages that have
> been sent to forums.

Good idea.

Ambrus
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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[John Baker-11]

If you count "users of J software" the numbers are in the thousands.  I know
this for a fact since a key component of Cognos Planning is largely powered
by an obsolete version of J with some special purpose C code bolted in.  At
the place I am currently working there are over 100 users of J and none of
them know it.  Their tiny little brains would be horrified if they knew the
awful truth.

As with all successful "apl/j/mathematica/f#/strange scary language language
systems" it's been a dream of Cognos to get rid of both APL and J and
replace them with something ordinary, (read cheap), programmers can deal
with.  There have been four attempts to oust APL from Cognos Planning that I
know off and two to get rid of J and yet I still see J happily crunching
numbers on our servers here.

There may be a lot more J out there than you realize.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmiller@...> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Matthew Brand <mtthwbrnd@...>
> wrote:
> > "You can put whatever number you like."
> >
> > Okay, thanks. I will go with 100 for now. Anybody got a better estimate
> :-).
>
> 100 users sounds good, at least until we can define what we mean by
> "users".
>
> (For example, some people have taught classes in J, and I expect that
> more than 100 people have taken classes from people teaching J.)
>
> --
> Raul
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>

--
John D. Baker
bakerjd99@...
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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Eric Iverson-3]

Just wanted to point out that the application referred to by John runs on
the latest J Engine. Nothing obsolete about that application or the
technology it is built on. Cognos is now owned by IBM.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 2:53 PM, John Baker <bakerjd99@...> wrote:

> If you count "users of J software" the numbers are in the thousands.  I
> know
> this for a fact since a key component of Cognos Planning is largely powered
> by an obsolete version of J with some special purpose C code bolted in.  At
> the place I am currently working there are over 100 users of J and none of
> them know it.  Their tiny little brains would be horrified if they knew the
> awful truth.
>
> As with all successful "apl/j/mathematica/f#/strange scary language
> language
> systems" it's been a dream of Cognos to get rid of both APL and J and
> replace them with something ordinary, (read cheap), programmers can deal
> with.  There have been four attempts to oust APL from Cognos Planning that
> I
> know off and two to get rid of J and yet I still see J happily crunching
> numbers on our servers here.
>
> There may be a lot more J out there than you realize.
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmiller@...> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Matthew Brand <mtthwbrnd@...>
> > wrote:
> > > "You can put whatever number you like."
> > >
> > > Okay, thanks. I will go with 100 for now. Anybody got a better estimate
> > :-).
> >
> > 100 users sounds good, at least until we can define what we mean by
> > "users".
> >
> > (For example, some people have taught classes in J, and I expect that
> > more than 100 people have taken classes from people teaching J.)
> >
> > --
> > Raul
> >  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> >
>
>
>
> --
> John D. Baker
> bakerjd99@...
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>

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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[bill lam-2]

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009, Matthew Brand wrote:
> "You can put whatever number you like."
>
> Okay, thanks. I will go with 100 for now. Anybody got a better estimate :-).

Difficult to guess, just like APL, the use of J would be a trade
secret.

--
regards,
====================================================
GPG key 1024D/4434BAB3 2008-08-24
gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv-keys 4434BAB3
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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Tracy Harms-3]

If you count like that, users of Scala are in the millions because
Twitter rides on it. Instead, I'd count Twitter as a single (large)
Scala user, and likewise, IBM Cognos Planning as a single (large) J
user.

--
Tracy


On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:53 AM, John Baker <bakerjd99@...> wrote:
> If you count "users of J software" the numbers are in the thousands.  I know
> this for a fact since a key component of Cognos Planning is largely powered
> by ... J with some special purpose C code bolted in.  ...
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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Matthew Brand-2]

It would be interesting to see this type of plot for J:
http://tinyurl.com/yjubljv

2009/11/4 Tracy Harms <kaleidic@...>

> If you count like that, users of Scala are in the millions because
> Twitter rides on it. Instead, I'd count Twitter as a single (large)
> Scala user, and likewise, IBM Cognos Planning as a single (large) J
> user.
>
> --
> Tracy
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:53 AM, John Baker <bakerjd99@...> wrote:
> > If you count "users of J software" the numbers are in the thousands.  I
> know
> > this for a fact since a key component of Cognos Planning is largely
> powered
> > by ... J with some special purpose C code bolted in.  ...
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>

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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

[Brian Schott]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4

The link is for Conway's Game of Life in APL and the number of view is 18,868.

By contrast the youtube screencast view counts for J are much more
modest, in the low 3 digit range. What is interesting to me is that
the views for "J programming language - a simple openGL screen robot"
has over twice as many views as "J programming language - download,
install". I interpret this as saying that the application is much more
important than the programming language in attracting viewers to
youtube, both in comparing the Life screencast to the J's and in
comparing the robot to the download, install. Of course the quality of
the screencasts could also be a big factor.

But I remain convinced that screencasts can be important in promotion
of programming languages like J, especially if they  demonstrate
sought-after applications. Rosetta Code has a similar attraction,
imho, and I believe we are getting more notice in that venue, also.

I would like to get some response from the J team if they have been
able to notice any upticks in J downloads in recent months that could
be associated with the youtube and rosetta code contributions, for
example.
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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm