JDK 1.4 support?

I have seen that SUN JDK 1.4 went out of support the past October 30,
2008:
http://java.sun.com/products/archive/eol.policy.html

Will Apache Derby still enforce JDK 1.4 support? Or it is time to move
on?


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[Dag H. Wanvik]

"pedrofaundezgon@..." <pedrofaundezgon@...> writes:

> I have seen that SUN JDK 1.4 went out of support the past October 30,
> 2008:
> http://java.sun.com/products/archive/eol.policy.html
>
> Will Apache Derby still enforce JDK 1.4 support? Or it is time to move
> on?

Derby doesn't enforce JDK 1.4, Derby runs well with Java 5 and 6, too,
so apps are free to choose what Java platform level to run on. For the
time being, development of Derby still uses a JDK 1.4 source level,
this is correct.

Thanks,
Dag

[Daniel Noll-3]

Dag H. Wanvik wrote:
> Derby doesn't enforce JDK 1.4

It does at compile-time.

Admittedly I haven't tried setting jdk14.home to point to jdk6. :-)

Daniel

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Daniel Noll wrote:
> Dag H. Wanvik wrote:
>> Derby doesn't enforce JDK 1.4
>
> It does at compile-time.
>
> Admittedly I haven't tried setting jdk14.home to point to jdk6. :-)

Yes, that is the problem. How do I set jdk14.home if there is no JDK
1.4 ?

I think support of compilation against JDK 1.4 should be removed
otherwise no developers would be able to work on it.



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[Bryan Pendleton]

> I think support of compilation against JDK 1.4 should be removed
> otherwise no developers would be able to work on it.

It seems like this is more a discussion for the *developers* list
than the *users* list, since it only applies to people trying to
build Derby from source, right?

So we should probably move it to the derby-dev list.

Is your current problem that you are having trouble getting
a copy of the 1.4 JDK? I think you have to go to a different
location on the download site, but I believe it is still available.

Or are you simply raising a concern for the future, about when
Derby should consider dropping support for JDK 1.4?

thanks,

bryan

Bryan Pendleton wrote:

>> I think support of compilation against JDK 1.4 should be removed  
>> otherwise no developers would be able to work on it.
>
> It seems like this is more a discussion for the *developers* list
> than the *users* list, since it only applies to people trying to
> build Derby from source, right?
>
> So we should probably move it to the derby-dev list.
>
> Is your current problem that you are having trouble getting
> a copy of the 1.4 JDK? I think you have to go to a different
> location on the download site, but I believe it is still available.
>
> Or are you simply raising a concern for the future, about when
> Derby should consider dropping support for JDK 1.4?

Yes, I am raising a concern about "should already be done" drop
support for JDK 1.4.
At least, if you do not jump on 1.5 new features, just do not require
a JDK 1.4 for compilation since many people do not want to use
unsupported not even for development.

Requiring an unmaintained JDK just creates a problem for developers.


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[Dag H. Wanvik]

I think we just need one JDK (1.6), but we do need JREs for 1.4 and
1.5 to compile Derby successfully. I am not sure BUILDING.txt reflects
this, though. I agree it is a bit cumbersome for the would-be
developer to have to download all that. I think we need the 1.4 JRE to
make sure we maintain compatibility with JME CDC 1.1 Foundation
profile (Constrained Device Configuration). Presently, there is a
single build (one jar file version only) for embedded Derby.

It would have been nice if new developers didn't have to worry about
that...

Thanks,
Dag

[Bernt M. Johnsen]

One word of caution. While Sun's JDK 1.4 had it's "end of service
life" 2008-10-08, IBM's JDK 1.4 has "End of Service" 2011-09-30

Which means that there is a supported 1.4 JDK out there. If we stop
requiring 1.4 for building Derby, we can't guarantee that future
versions of Derby will work for IBM's still supported 1.4 JDK.

Sun's 1.4 JDK is still available for download.

[Knut Anders Hatlen]

Dag.Wanvik@... (Dag H. Wanvik) writes:

> I think we just need one JDK (1.6), but we do need JREs for 1.4 and
> 1.5 to compile Derby successfully.

That's correct. JDK 1.6 is not required, though, so JRE 1.4 and JDK 1.5
should be enough if you don't care about JDBC 4.0 support.

> I am not sure BUILDING.txt reflects
> this, though. I agree it is a bit cumbersome for the would-be
> developer to have to download all that. I think we need the 1.4 JRE to
> make sure we maintain compatibility with JME CDC 1.1 Foundation
> profile (Constrained Device Configuration). Presently, there is a
> single build (one jar file version only) for embedded Derby.

What we need JRE 1.4 for is the JDBC 3.0 interfaces. We don't need JRE
1.4 for the compatibility with Foundation 1.1, but we need to compile
with source level 1.4 to stay compatible.

Since the JDBC 3.0 interfaces are the same in JRE 1.4 and JRE 1.5, it
should be possible to compile against JRE 1.5 instead of JRE 1.4. I have
tried that in the past, and the resulting jar files were usable on a
Java 1.4 platform. I haven't tried it lately, so I don't know if it is
still possible.

> It would have been nice if new developers didn't have to worry about
> that...

Agreed. First step would be to file a JIRA issue to remove the
compile-time dependency on JRE 1.4. Then we could consider the options
there. If we want to preserve compatibility with 1.4, I think we have
these alternatives:

1) Compile against the JDBC 3.0 interfaces from JRE 1.5, using source
level 1.4

2) Create stubs based on Apache Harmony's class library for compilation
of the JDBC 3.0 driver, much the same way as we did for JSR-169 in
DERBY-3703

With alternative (1) we'd need JRE 1.5 + JDK 1.6 to produce a full build
(JSR-169, JDBC 3.0, JDBC 4.0). With alternative (2) JDK 1.6 should be
enough.

--
Knut Anders

Bernt M. Johnsen wrote:
> One word of caution. While Sun's JDK 1.4 had it's "end of service
> life" 2008-10-08, IBM's JDK 1.4 has "End of Service" 2011-09-30
>
> Which means that there is a supported 1.4 JDK out there. If we stop
> requiring 1.4 for building Derby, we can't guarantee that future
> versions of Derby will work for IBM's still supported 1.4 JDK.
>
> Sun's 1.4 JDK is still available for download.

So, that means that either I should install an unsupported JDK 1.4
from SUN or a JDK 1.4 from IBM that I can not install because of IBM
JDK licensing issues.

I hope you understand that making it so hard for new developers will
not help.



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[Bernt M. Johnsen]

>>>>>>>>>>>> pedrofaundezgon@... wrote (2008-11-26 13:30:52):
> So, that means that either I should install an unsupported JDK 1.4
> from SUN or a JDK 1.4 from IBM that I can not install because of IBM
> JDK licensing issues.

Yes, and the Sun JDK 1.4 is still downloadable. As far as I
understand, the IBM JDK is freely available, but you have to
register. Correct me if I'm wrong.

>
> I hope you understand that making it so hard for new developers will
> not help.

I understand that it's a nuisance, but it have to be that way until
the Derby community decides to not support 1.4

[Knut Anders Hatlen]

"Bernt M. Johnsen" <Bernt.Johnsen@...> writes:

>>>>>>>>>>>>> pedrofaundezgon@... wrote (2008-11-26 13:30:52):
>> So, that means that either I should install an unsupported JDK 1.4
>> from SUN or a JDK 1.4 from IBM that I can not install because of IBM
>> JDK licensing issues.
>
> Yes, and the Sun JDK 1.4 is still downloadable. As far as I
> understand, the IBM JDK is freely available, but you have to
> register. Correct me if I'm wrong.

After its being EOLed, registration is needed for Sun's JDK as well. The
JRE (which is the only part of 1.4 you need) is still available with no
registration, though. http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/download.html

>> I hope you understand that making it so hard for new developers will
>> not help.
>
> I understand that it's a nuisance, but it have to be that way until
> the Derby community decides to not support 1.4

No, it doesn't have to be that way. :)

It is possible to make changes to the build system so that it builds jar
files that can be used on JRE 1.4 without requiring the 1.4 libraries at
compile-time. Please file a JIRA issue at
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/DERBY if you'd like to see it
fixed.

--
Knut Anders

[Myrna van Lunteren]

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Knut Anders Hatlen
<Knut.Hatlen@...> wrote:

> "Bernt M. Johnsen" <Bernt.Johnsen@...> writes:
>>
>> I understand that it's a nuisance, but it have to be that way until
>> the Derby community decides to not support 1.4
>
> No, it doesn't have to be that way. :)
>
> It is possible to make changes to the build system so that it builds jar
> files that can be used on JRE 1.4 without requiring the 1.4 libraries at
> compile-time. Please file a JIRA issue at
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/DERBY if you'd like to see it
> fixed.
>
> --
> Knut Anders
>

It's an issue that has to get addressed(...eventually)...so thanks for
bringing it up. Note by the way: Active participation is always
appreciated. ("fry your own fish").
I think though that this would be a change for trunk only, I don't
think it should get backported.

And yes, this should be a derby-dev item...

Myrna

[Rick Hillegas-2]

I have started a parallel thread on derby-dev. I agree that we should
iron out some issues there first.

Regards,
-Rick

Myrna van Lunteren wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Knut Anders Hatlen
> <Knut.Hatlen@...> wrote:
>  
>> "Bernt M. Johnsen" <Bernt.Johnsen@...> writes:
>>    
>>> I understand that it's a nuisance, but it have to be that way until
>>> the Derby community decides to not support 1.4
>>>      
>> No, it doesn't have to be that way. :)
>>
>> It is possible to make changes to the build system so that it builds jar
>> files that can be used on JRE 1.4 without requiring the 1.4 libraries at
>> compile-time. Please file a JIRA issue at
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/DERBY if you'd like to see it
>> fixed.
>>
>> --
>> Knut Anders
>>
>>    
>
> It's an issue that has to get addressed(...eventually)...so thanks for
> bringing it up. Note by the way: Active participation is always
> appreciated. ("fry your own fish").
> I think though that this would be a change for trunk only, I don't
> think it should get backported.
>
> And yes, this should be a derby-dev item...
>
> Myrna
>