Joining list. Calendar reforms.

[Karl Palmen]

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Dear Irv, Mike  and Calendar People

 

I think confusion has arisen about the time that the 6-week  or 1.25 month lag is from.

 

I have assumed it is from the points approximately halfway between the equinoxes and solstices (mid quarter points). So the Chinese calendar seasons have no lag and the traditional Western seasons beginning at each equinox and solstice have a  lag of about 1.5 months or 6.5 weeks.

 

Mike seems to be proposing a slightly smaller lag, making each season begin about a week before  its equinox or solstice. Irv’s six week lag would place an equinox or solstice into the first seven days of its season with the northward equinox occurring nearest the beginning of its season.

In the Rainbow Alphabet Calendar ( http://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/palmen/rainbow.htm#abc ),

such seasons would begin on the Reddays of weeks M (~ Mar 19), Z (~ Jun 18), m (~ Sep 18), z (~ Dec 18).

 

Mike’s seasons would begin near the middle of the Gregorian month containing that season’s equinox or solstice.

 

Mike said something about terrestrial seasons not being equal. This suggests  to me seasons beginning April 1, June 1, October 1 and December 1, because Winter and Summer seem to be longer than Spring or Autumn/Fall. The mean lag is about 1.25 months.

 

Karl

 

10(09(24

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 16 June 2009 01:12
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Brief seasonal calendar position summary

 

On 2009 Jun 15, at 19:18 , MIKE OSSIPOFF wrote:

I disagree. You've made an error.

 

Irv replies:  I rechecked what I wrote, it is OK.  Try re-reading it.

 

I was assuming at least a 6 week lag because that's what we get here in Canada.  Placing the mid-quarter day at the earliest northward equinox or the earliest north solstice has the effect of reducing the average from 6.5 weeks to 6 weeks prior to the thermal season.  If the northward equinox is at the winter mid-quarter day then the thermal spring season will start about 6 weeks later at the start of the spring quarter.  If the north solstice is at the spring mid-quarter day then the thermal summer season will start about 6 weeks later at the start of the summer quarter.  This is all good, except that the figures Mike presented implied that the seasonal lag we see in Canada may be exceptionally long compared to global patterns.  If one is determined to shorten the lag to 5 weeks, then the mid-quarter day concept can be tossed and a having the earliest equinox or solstice fall 5.5 weeks prior to the start of the quarter might be more appropriate globally.  Hmm, that's 38+1/2 days, perhaps an even 40 days instead?

 

-- Irv Bromberg, Toronto, Canada

 

<http://www.sym454.org/seasons/>

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[Irv Bromberg]

On 2009 Jun 16, at 07:52 , Palmen, KEV (Karl) wrote:

I think confusion has arisen about the time that the 6-week  or 1.25 month lag is from.

I have assumed it is from the points approximately halfway between the equinoxes and solstices (mid quarter points). So the Chinese calendar seasons have no lag and the traditional Western seasons beginning at each equinox and solstice have a  lag of about 1.5 months or 6.5 weeks.

Mike seems to be proposing a slightly smaller lag, making each season begin about a week before  its equinox or solstice. Irv’s six week lag would place an equinox or solstice into the first seven days of its season with the northward equinox occurring nearest the beginning of its season.

Irv replies:  I don't understand Karl's attempt to clarify what I wrote.  My proposed 6-week lag would place the northward equinox 6 weeks before the start of the spring quarter of the calendar, so that the start of the thermal spring season would more or less coincide with the start of the spring quarter.  Alternatively it would place the north solstice 6 weeks before the start of the summer quarter of the calendar, so that the start of the thermal summer season would more or less coincide with the start of the summer quarter.

The Chinese calendar seasons are direct correlations between ecliptic solar longitude and observed patterns of weather or nature, so by definition they have no lag -- in China.  That is to say, they suit the Chinese climate as perfectly as is possible when using a lunisolar calendar.  Astronomically, however, the lag is there.  For example, the summer solstice major solar term is at 90°, at that time the solar declination is maximal, but the "great heat" major solar term isn't until 120°, which is almost 30 days later.  Likewise, the winter solstice major solar term is at 270°, at that time the solar declination is minimal, but the "great cold" major solar term isn't until 300°, which is almost 30 days later.  So it would seem that the astronomical-to-thermal seasonal lag in China, at least by tradition, is not more than a month.

One could come close to the Chinese pattern with a solar calendar by arranging the intercalation so that the latest northward equinox falls prior to the beginning of the month before the start of the spring quarter, or so that the latest north solstice falls prior to the beginning of the month before the start of the summer quarter.

-- Irv Bromberg, Toronto, Canada

<http://www.sym454.org/seasons/>

[Karl Palmen]

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Dear Irv, Mike and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 16 June 2009 13:51
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Brief seasonal calendar position summary

 

On 2009 Jun 16, at 07:52 , Palmen, KEV (Karl) wrote:

I think confusion has arisen about the time that the 6-week  or 1.25 month lag is from.

I have assumed it is from the points approximately halfway between the equinoxes and solstices (mid quarter points). So the Chinese calendar seasons have no lag and the traditional Western seasons beginning at each equinox and solstice have a  lag of about 1.5 months or 6.5 weeks.

Mike seems to be proposing a slightly smaller lag, making each season begin about a week before  its equinox or solstice. Irv’s six week lag would place an equinox or solstice into the first seven days of its season with the northward equinox occurring nearest the beginning of its season.

 

Irv replies:  I don't understand Karl's attempt to clarify what I wrote.  My proposed 6-week lag would place the northward equinox 6 weeks before the start of the spring quarter of the calendar, so that the start of the thermal spring season would more or less coincide with the start of the spring quarter.  Alternatively it would place the north solstice 6 weeks before the start of the summer quarter of the calendar, so that the start of the thermal summer season would more or less coincide with the start of the summer quarter.

 

Does Irv really intend to start the Summer quarter in early August and end it in early November?

 

The Chinese calendar seasons are direct correlations between ecliptic solar longitude and observed patterns of weather or nature, so by definition they have no lag -- in China.  That is to say, they suit the Chinese climate as perfectly as is possible when using a lunisolar calendar.  

 

I’m referring to the Chinese convention of starting Spring in early February etc. as evidenced in the names of solar terms  as listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#Solar_term . I assume this is what Mike is measuring his time lag against.

 

Karl

 

10(09(24

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[Karl Palmen]

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Dear Irv, Mike and Calendar People

 

I said:

 

The Chinese calendar seasons are direct correlations between ecliptic solar longitude and observed patterns of weather or nature, so by definition they have no lag -- in China.  That is to say, they suit the Chinese climate as perfectly as is possible when using a lunisolar calendar.  

 

I’m referring to the Chinese convention of starting Spring in early February etc. as evidenced in the names of solar terms  as listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#Solar_term  . I assume this is what Mike is measuring his time lag against.

 

To clarify: I was particularly referring to the start of spring term (315 degrees), start of summer (45 degrees), start of autumn (135 degrees) and start of winter (225 degrees) rather than other terms that imply greater heat the end of summer etc.

 

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_term

 

Mike can verify (or deny) my assumption that time lag is from the mid quarter days as specified in my clarification above.

 

Karl

 

From: Palmen, KEV (Karl)
Sent: 16 June 2009 14:09
To: 'East Carolina University Calendar discussion List'
Subject: RE: Brief seasonal calendar position summary

 

Dear Irv, Mike and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 16 June 2009 13:51
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Brief seasonal calendar position summary

 

On 2009 Jun 16, at 07:52 , Palmen, KEV (Karl) wrote:

I think confusion has arisen about the time that the 6-week  or 1.25 month lag is from.

I have assumed it is from the points approximately halfway between the equinoxes and solstices (mid quarter points). So the Chinese calendar seasons have no lag and the traditional Western seasons beginning at each equinox and solstice have a  lag of about 1.5 months or 6.5 weeks.

Mike seems to be proposing a slightly smaller lag, making each season begin about a week before  its equinox or solstice. Irv’s six week lag would place an equinox or solstice into the first seven days of its season with the northward equinox occurring nearest the beginning of its season.

 

Irv replies:  I don't understand Karl's attempt to clarify what I wrote.  My proposed 6-week lag would place the northward equinox 6 weeks before the start of the spring quarter of the calendar, so that the start of the thermal spring season would more or less coincide with the start of the spring quarter.  Alternatively it would place the north solstice 6 weeks before the start of the summer quarter of the calendar, so that the start of the thermal summer season would more or less coincide with the start of the summer quarter.

 

Does Irv really intend to start the Summer quarter in early August and end it in early November?

 

The Chinese calendar seasons are direct correlations between ecliptic solar longitude and observed patterns of weather or nature, so by definition they have no lag -- in China.  That is to say, they suit the Chinese climate as perfectly as is possible when using a lunisolar calendar.  

 

I’m referring to the Chinese convention of starting Spring in early February etc. as evidenced in the names of solar terms  as listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#Solar_term . I assume this is what Mike is measuring his time lag against.

 

Karl

 

10(09(24

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[Irv Bromberg]

On 2009 Jun 16, at 09:09 , Palmen, KEV (Karl) wrote:

Does Irv really intend to start the Summer quarter in early August and end it in early November?

Irv replies:  Yes, that is the outcome of a 6-week delay after the solstice, placing the hottest part of summer at the beginning of the summer quarter.  The Chinese-like alternative of placing the latest solstice one month before the summer quarter would have the solstice fall in the range 4-5 weeks before the start of the summer quarter, so relating it to the Gregorian calendar it would be from mid July to late October.

If this seems odd to the reader, really what is odd is the seasonal calendar that Mike has been proposing, as I am only pointing out reasonably convenient ways that such a seasonal calendar could be applied to a solar calendar without making the equinox or solstice wobble appear conspicuous.  Personally I prefer to go with astronomical seasons, based on solar declination, which begins with a cool spring that steadily warms up, or begins with a cool summer that reaches peak heat about mid-quarter.  In other words, I don't see the thermal lag as a calendrically relevant lag, especially since the delay interval and magnitude of climatic swings globally varies so dramatically as it does.

Irv wrote:  The Chinese calendar seasons are direct correlations between ecliptic solar longitude and observed patterns of weather or nature, so by definition they have no lag -- in China.  That is to say, they suit the Chinese climate as perfectly as is possible when using a lunisolar calendar.

Karl replied:  I’m referring to the Chinese convention of starting Spring in early February etc. as evidenced in the names of solar terms  as listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#Solar_term . I assume this is what Mike is measuring his time lag against.

Yes, I noticed that, it is very peculiar.  At both equinoxes the Chinese mark the incoming season without a lag.  I attribute this to different, milder weather patterns and cultural optimism in China, although one would expect the mild weather only relatively near the Pacific ocean, and not so much the drier inland areas especially as the land elevation rises.  Anyhow, that is why I focused on the solstices, where the thermal lag seems as expected.

-- Irv Bromberg, Toronto, Canada

<http://www.sym454.org/seasons/>

[Karl Palmen]

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Dear Irv, Mike and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 16 June 2009 16:26
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Brief seasonal calendar position summary

 

On 2009 Jun 16, at 09:09 , Palmen, KEV (Karl) wrote:

Does Irv really intend to start the Summer quarter in early August and end it in early November?

 

Irv replies:  Yes, that is the outcome of a 6-week delay after the solstice, placing the hottest part of summer at the beginning of the summer quarter.  The Chinese-like alternative of placing the latest solstice one month before the summer quarter would have the solstice fall in the range 4-5 weeks before the start of the summer quarter, so relating it to the Gregorian calendar it would be from mid July to late October.

 

This seems absurd.

A look at the Wikipedia climate table for Toronto at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto#Climate suggests that the Summer quarter starts in the first half of June for it to have the hottest days and similarly the Winter quarter to start in the first half of December to have the coldest days. This fits in with a 1.25  month delay from the mid-quarter days.

 

I’ll leave it to Mike to state the times from which his time-lag occurs.

 

Karl

 

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[Irv Bromberg]

On 2009 Jun 16, at 11:38 , Palmen, KEV (Karl) wrote:

Irv replies:  Yes, that is the outcome of a 6-week delay after the solstice, placing the hottest part of summer at the beginning of the summer quarter.  The Chinese-like alternative of placing the latest solstice one month before the summer quarter would have the solstice fall in the range 4-5 weeks before the start of the summer quarter, so relating it to the Gregorian calendar it would be from mid July to late October.

 

This seems absurd.

A look at the Wikipedia climate table for Toronto at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto#Climate suggests that the Summer quarter starts in the first half of June for it to have the hottest days and similarly the Winter quarter to start in the first half of December to have the coldest days. This fits in with a 1.25  month delay from the mid-quarter days.

That Toronto climate chart only gives the high and low for each month, so it is insufficiently detailed to conclude anything.

Anyhow, I was referring to the Canadian climate, not the weather in Toronto.  The City of Toronto itself runs generally several degrees warmer than other regions at the same latitude, because of the absorption of sunlight by all the roadways and buildings, and the human generation of heat from vehicles, furnaces, air conditioners, factories, and humans and their animals.

Karl is saying 1.25 month delay after mid-quarter day.  Delay of what?  From what event?  On what calendar?

Mike is proposing a seasonal calendar where each quarter starts with the thermal season.  To define thermal seasons one needs a smoothed daily graph of mean temperatures, and then find the quarter of the year that has the mean highest and call that summer, the quarter of the year that has the mean lowest and call that winter, then the quarters in-between those are the spring and autumn.  (In this or related threads, I haven't seen evidence that Mike or anybody else has carried out such an analysis.)  The outcome of that will be a calendar shifted by some number of weeks later than what are are accustomed to.  You can argue a lag of 4 weeks, 5 weeks, 6 weeks, whatever, but no matter what it will seem absurd relative to what we are accustomed to.

-- Irv Bromberg, Toronto, Canada

<http://www.sym454.org/leap/>

<http://www.sym454.org/seasons/>

[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

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Irv--
 
You wrote:

This is all good, except that the figures Mike presented implied that the seasonal lag we see in Canada may be exceptionally long compared to global patterns. 
 
I reply:
 
I don't have the world-climate book with me now, as I write, and all I remember now is that nearly all temperate region places, the places I listed, have seasonal time-lag in the .75 month to 1.75 month range. If I remember correctly, most all countries had lags throughout that range, depending on how oceanic or continental a particular city's location is, and so most likely that was true of Canada too, but I don't have the book with me right now.
 
I don't remember the exact title of the book, but it was a Times publication, showing, for very many cities worldwide, the average over many years, typically 20 or 30 or so, sometimes more or fewer, for each month, the average daily minimum and maximum temperatures during that month.
 
Because it only showed months, not days, the lag figures that I got were correspondingly approximate. I just determined by how much the month's lowest average daily maximum and minimum temperatures lagged behind the winter solstice and by how much the highest lagged behind the summer solstice.
 
Mike Ossipoff
 
 
 
 
//www.sym454.org/seasons/

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[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

 


Karl and Calendar People,
 
Karl, you wrote:
 
Mike seems to be proposing a slightly smaller lag, making each season begin about a week before  its equinox or solstice.
 
I reply:
 
Yes, that's true, if seasons are quarters. But it seems to me that the seasons that we perceive and usually speak of are unequal.
 
You continued:
 
Mike’s seasons would begin near the middle of the Gregorian month containing that season’s equinox or solstice.
 
I reply:
 
Again true, if calendar seasons are equal.

You continued:
 
Mike said something about terrestrial seasons not being equal. This suggests  to me seasons beginning April 1, June 1, October 1 and December 1, because Winter and Summer seem to be longer than Spring or Autumn/Fall. The mean lag is about 1.25 months.

I reply:
 
Yes, that agrees well with all of our perceptions, that northern-hemisphere summer begins with June and trails to an end during September; and that the northern-hemisphere winter begins with December and has similar length. April seems to me to be the first definitely spring month. A tentative but definite start to spring, which later becomes more all-out spring in May. That also agrees with Mymie Krythe's _All About the Months_, what she says, and the early authors she quotes.
 
I got the 117 or 118 day length for the North season from the widely-perceived June 1 starting date and an assumed time-lag of exactly 38 days (about 1.25 months).
 
But starting the Southward season on October 1, and starting the Northward season on April 1 is easier to describe, and agrees with perceptions as well.
 
For the fixed version, with the need for whole numbers of weeks, the seasons of 17 weeks and 9 weeks are still close enough to the estimates in the paragraphs before this.
 
Mike Ossipoff
 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
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[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

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 On 2009 Jun 16, at 09:09 , Palmen, KEV (Karl) wrote:

Does Irv really intend to start the Summer quarter in early August and end it in early November?

Irv replies:  Yes, that is the outcome of a 6-week delay after the solstice, placing the hottest part of summer at the beginning of the summer quarter.  

 

I comment:

 

Why?  How could it be justified to call such a quarter "Summer", when everyone would agree that what they call "summer" is well underway long before early August.

 

When we speak of a 6-week delay, shouldn't that refer to the amount by which, say, the middle of a calendar summer or winter lags behind the corresponding solstice?

 

Irv continued:

 

If this seems odd to the reader, really what is odd is the seasonal calendar that Mike has been proposing

 

I comment:

 

Excuse me? Unequal seasons are different from what we've heard about in the past, but the Subjective Seasonal Calendar's calendar seasons match well with what people mean by the seasons, in the north and south temperate zones. Which part of that is odd?

 

Irv continued:

 

 In other words, I don't see the thermal lag as a calendrically relevant lag, especially since the delay interval and magnitude of climatic swings globally varies so dramatically as it does.

 

I reply:

 

First, a calendar is more about timing than the magnitude of temperature swings.

 

The delay interval doesn't vary prohibitively much within the north and south temperate zones.  Nearly everywhere there, the 1.25 month lag estimate would only be off by about two weeks at most.

 

That makes a terrestrial-seasonal calendar, such as the Subjective Seasonal Calendar, very useful, and meaningfully related to the seasons.

 

Karl, you wrote:

 

I’m referring to the Chinese convention of starting Spring in early Februar. y etc. as evidenced in the names of solar terms  as listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#Solar_term I assume this is what Mike is measuring his time lag against.

 
I reply:
 
Measuring seasonal lag in the book of worldwide temperature records, I looked at the amount by which the hottest and coldest months lagged the corresponding solstices.
 
For the Subjective Seasonal Calendar, I applied the lag in two different ways:
 
First, I defined North as starting on June 1; and South as beginning on December 1.
 
1. Determine the length North based on a June 1 starting date, and the stipulation that the middle of North lag 38 days after the north solstice.
 
Or,
 
2. Choose the end of North as the time when the solar declination 38 days previous is the same as the solar declination 38 days before June 1.
 
#2 is better, but #1 is probably simpler, and it's what I've already been proposing here, and so I've chosen to keep #1 as my proposal for determining the length of North.
 
Mike Ossipoff
 

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[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

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Calendrists,

 

IRV wrote:

 

Mike is proposing a seasonal calendar where each quarter starts with the thermal season.  

 

I reply:

 

Wait a minute--I'm not proposing quarters as calendar seasons.  I'm proposing unequal calender seasons.

 

Irv continues:

 

To define thermal seasons one needs a smoothed daily graph of mean temperatures, and then find the quarter of the year that has the mean highest and call that summer, the quarter of the year that has the mean lowest and call that winter, then the quarters in-between those are the spring and autumn.  

 

I reply:

 

That still doesn't specify where you'd place the dividing lines.

 

Anyway, that would be one way, but only one way among several.

 

Irv continues:

 

(In this or related threads, I haven't seen evidence that Mike or anybody else has carried out such an analysis.)  

 

I reply:

 

Quite right.  Rather than telling people what should be called Summer or Winter, I prefer to base the calendar summer and winter (internationally, North & South) on people's expressed perceptions.

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[Karl Palmen]

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Dear Mike

 

Thank you for your reply about this question.

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of MIKE OSSIPOFF
Sent: 17 June 2009 00:56
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Brief seasonal calendar position summary

 

MIKE SAID (first quoting me):

Karl, you wrote:

 

I’m referring to the Chinese convention of starting Spring in early February etc. as evidenced in the names of solar terms  as listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#Solar_term I assume this is what Mike is measuring his time lag against.

 
I reply:
 
Measuring seasonal lag in the book of worldwide temperature records, I looked at the amount by which the hottest and coldest months lagged the corresponding solstices.
 
If you define Summer to have the hottest time of year in the middle and Winter to have the coldest time of year in the middle, then this is equivalent to what I have stated, but unlike what I have stated it can also be applied to unequal seasons, because it refers to season middles, rather than season starts.

So the time lag is how much the middle of each season lags behind the solstice or equinox of that season.

Irv has assumed (but never stated this assumption) that the time lag is the time that the season start occurs after its solstice or equinox (rather than season middle). I believe he never stated that assumption explicitly because, it did not occur to him that some other definition of the time lag could be in use.

Karl

 

10(09(24 till noon

 

 

 

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[Karl Palmen]

Dear Mike, Irv and Calendar People

MIKE SAID:
I got the 117 or 118 day length for the North season from the
widely-perceived June 1 starting date and an assumed time-lag of exactly
38 days (about 1.25 months).

KARL SAYS: Middle day is 38 days after June 21, which is July 29, which
in turn is the 59th day of the season beginning 1 June, so the season
would last 117 days (next season beginning September 26).
 

MIKE CONTINUED:
But starting the Southward season on October 1, and starting the
Northward season on April 1 is easier to describe, and agrees with
perceptions as well.
 
For the fixed version, with the need for whole numbers of weeks, the
seasons of 17 weeks and 9 weeks are still close enough to the estimates
in the paragraphs before this.

KARL SAYS:
This fits in well with months of 4 and 5 weeks arranged like in Irv's
Symmetry454 calendar. You get there simply by starting the seasons on
the first days of April, June, October and December. The year from April
to September inclusive divides thus:
( |45|4 454| ).

Karl

10(09(25
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[Karl Palmen]

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Dear Irv and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 16 June 2009 17:00
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Brief seasonal calendar position summary

 

On 2009 Jun 16, at 11:38 , Palmen, KEV (Karl) wrote:

Irv replies:  Yes, that is the outcome of a 6-week delay after the solstice, placing the hottest part of summer at the beginning of the summer quarter.  The Chinese-like alternative of placing the latest solstice one month before the summer quarter would have the solstice fall in the range 4-5 weeks before the start of the summer quarter, so relating it to the Gregorian calendar it would be from mid July to late October.

 

This seems absurd.

A look at the Wikipedia climate table for Toronto at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto#Climate suggests that the Summer quarter starts in the first half of June for it to have the hottest days and similarly the Winter quarter to start in the first half of December to have the coldest days. This fits in with a 1.25  month delay from the mid-quarter days.

 

That Toronto climate chart only gives the high and low for each month, so it is insufficiently detailed to conclude anything.

 

KARL SAYS: I disagree.

The three highest temperatures (both high and low) are for June, July and August. So if the Summer Quarter had to start on the first day of a month, it would be 1 June.

I note that the September temperatures are considerably higher than the May temperatures. This suggests delaying the start of the Summer quarter by less than half a month. Hence my conclusion that the Summer Quarter should start in the first half of June. A similar argument places the start of the Winter quarter in the first half of December.

Monthly figures are sufficient to place the season starts to an accuracy of about half a month. Greater accuracy may possible by fitting a sine wave to the monthly temperature figures.

 

I still think a Summer Quarter from Early August to Early November is absurd anywhere in the world.

By comparison, unequal seasons beginning April 1,  June 1, October 1 and December 1 seem sensible.

 

Karl

 

 

10(09(25

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[Karl Palmen]

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Dear Mike, Irv and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of MIKE OSSIPOFF
Sent: 17 June 2009 01:05
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Brief seasonal calendar position summary

 

 

Calendrists,

 

IRV wrote:

 

Mike is proposing a seasonal calendar where each quarter starts with the thermal season.  

 

I reply:

 

Wait a minute--I'm not proposing quarters as calendar seasons.  I'm proposing unequal calender seasons.

 

Irv continues:

 

To define thermal seasons one needs a smoothed daily graph of mean temperatures, and then find the quarter of the year that has the mean highest and call that summer, the quarter of the year that has the mean lowest and call that winter, then the quarters in-between those are the spring and autumn.  

 

KARL SAYS: I disagree.  If temperatures (averaged over years) vary smoothly day to day, less frequent temperatures would be sufficient. One can interpolate temperatures in between. Even monthly temperatures could be sufficient.

 

I reply:

 

That still doesn't specify where you'd place the dividing lines.

 

Anyway, that would be one way, but only one way among several.

 

Irv continues:

 

(In this or related threads, I haven't seen evidence that Mike or anybody else has carried out such an analysis.)  

 

I reply:

 

Quite right.  Rather than telling people what should be called Summer or Winter, I prefer to base the calendar summer and winter (internationally, North & South) on people's expressed perceptions.

 

KARL SAYS: Only if these perceptions agree, is it worthwhile trying to invent and change to such a calendar.

If Irv  thinks a Northern Summer season should begin in August while Mike thinks it should be in June and the Chinese start of summer term is in May what hope is there?

 

Karl

 

10(09(25

 

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[Brillig]

Dear Calendar People,

I still say trying to devise a global calendar by seasons using
temperature as the means of alignment is an excercise in futility. The
weatherunderground.com website can be used as a good resource to
explore this.To illustrate my point, let's take two cities in North
America. Mexico City doesn't get a nice graph like you get with such
cities as Austin, where the high temperature for the year is clearly
in August. However, that is not necessary to show that it is far apart
from August. It is in either April or May. Well, you say, maybe that's
because Mexico City is too close to the equator. Then what about
Anchorage, Alaska, where it is clearly in July? You don't even have to
get out of Texas for the highs to move around more than a month. As I
stated earlier, the high in Austin is August. In Alpine, it's in June
as it is in El Paso as well. I could go on, but anyone else can
explore various cities as well as I can. In Maui, it's September....

Victor

[Karl Palmen]

Dear Victor, Irv, Mike and Calendar People

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City#Climate shows that the hottest
months in Mexico city are April and May. It also shows that this is the
case, because of increased rainfall from June onwards.

Austin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin,_Texas shows the highest
temperature in August, but it's only slightly higher than in July.
Fitting 3 months as I did for Toronto would start the Summer Quarter in
the first half of June as for Toronto, but perhaps a little later than
Toronto.
El Paso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Paso#Temperature_statistics puts
the Summer Quarter starting close to 1 June. Placing the peak in the
centre would require an earlier start, but taking account of
temperatures across the whole quarter would require it to begin in June.

Karl

10(09(25

-----Original Message-----
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
[mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of Victor Engel
Sent: 17 June 2009 14:15
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Brief seasonal calendar position summary

Dear Calendar People,

I still say trying to devise a global calendar by seasons using
temperature as the means of alignment is an excercise in futility. The
weatherunderground.com website can be used as a good resource to
explore this.To illustrate my point, let's take two cities in North
America. Mexico City doesn't get a nice graph like you get with such
cities as Austin, where the high temperature for the year is clearly
in August. However, that is not necessary to show that it is far apart
from August. It is in either April or May. Well, you say, maybe that's
because Mexico City is too close to the equator. Then what about
Anchorage, Alaska, where it is clearly in July? You don't even have to
get out of Texas for the highs to move around more than a month. As I
stated earlier, the high in Austin is August. In Alpine, it's in June
as it is in El Paso as well. I could go on, but anyone else can
explore various cities as well as I can. In Maui, it's September....

Victor

--
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[Brillig]

A global meteorological phenomenon that affects seasonal temperatures
is the intertropical convergence zone (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intertropical_convergence_zone ). This is
a band that circles the globe and moves north and south with the
seasons. The trade winds move with the ITCZ. It is my speculation that
chaotic patterns resulting from the ITCZ interacting with land results
in local weather conditions that differ in longitude from the mean for
the latitude.

Victor

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Palmen, KEV
(Karl)<karl.palmen@...> wrote:

> Dear Victor, Irv, Mike and Calendar People
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City#Climate shows that the hottest
> months in Mexico city are April and May. It also shows that this is the
> case, because of increased rainfall from June onwards.
>
> Austin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin,_Texas shows the highest
> temperature in August, but it's only slightly higher than in July.
> Fitting 3 months as I did for Toronto would start the Summer Quarter in
> the first half of June as for Toronto, but perhaps a little later than
> Toronto.
> El Paso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Paso#Temperature_statistics puts
> the Summer Quarter starting close to 1 June. Placing the peak in the
> centre would require an earlier start, but taking account of
> temperatures across the whole quarter would require it to begin in June.
>
> Karl
>
> 10(09(25
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
> [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of Victor Engel
> Sent: 17 June 2009 14:15
> To: CALNDR-L@...
> Subject: Re: Brief seasonal calendar position summary
>
> Dear Calendar People,
>
> I still say trying to devise a global calendar by seasons using
> temperature as the means of alignment is an excercise in futility. The
> weatherunderground.com website can be used as a good resource to
> explore this.To illustrate my point, let's take two cities in North
> America. Mexico City doesn't get a nice graph like you get with such
> cities as Austin, where the high temperature for the year is clearly
> in August. However, that is not necessary to show that it is far apart
> from August. It is in either April or May. Well, you say, maybe that's
> because Mexico City is too close to the equator. Then what about
> Anchorage, Alaska, where it is clearly in July? You don't even have to
> get out of Texas for the highs to move around more than a month. As I
> stated earlier, the high in Austin is August. In Alpine, it's in June
> as it is in El Paso as well. I could go on, but anyone else can
> explore various cities as well as I can. In Maui, it's September....
>
> Victor
>
> --
> Scanned by iCritical.
>
>

[Mark J. Reed]

Summer in the US is unofficially bracketed by two Federal holidays:
Memorial Day (last Monday in May) and Labor Day (first Monday in
September).  So having a calendar Summer consisting of June, July, and
August would be in keeping with common practice here, and the solstice
would be a bit less than 1/3 of the way through, somewhat splitting
the difference between the "start" and "midpoint" crowds.

Similarly, Thanksgiving (fourth Thursday in November)  is regarded as
a sort of boundary between autumn and winter.  So autumn would be
Sept, Oct, and Nov, and so far we have quarters as seasons.

Between winter and spring the major non-equinoctial marker is Easter.
Of course it comes after the equinox by definition, and so is no help
if you feel the equinox should fall inside spring instead of defining
its onset.

On 6/17/09, Palmen, KEV (Karl) <karl.palmen@...> wrote:

> Dear Victor, Irv, Mike and Calendar People
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City#Climate shows that the hottest
> months in Mexico city are April and May. It also shows that this is the
> case, because of increased rainfall from June onwards.
>
> Austin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin,_Texas shows the highest
> temperature in August, but it's only slightly higher than in July.
> Fitting 3 months as I did for Toronto would start the Summer Quarter in
> the first half of June as for Toronto, but perhaps a little later than
> Toronto.
> El Paso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Paso#Temperature_statistics puts
> the Summer Quarter starting close to 1 June. Placing the peak in the
> centre would require an earlier start, but taking account of
> temperatures across the whole quarter would require it to begin in June.
>
> Karl
>
> 10(09(25
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
> [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of Victor Engel
> Sent: 17 June 2009 14:15
> To: CALNDR-L@...
> Subject: Re: Brief seasonal calendar position summary
>
> Dear Calendar People,
>
> I still say trying to devise a global calendar by seasons using
> temperature as the means of alignment is an excercise in futility. The
> weatherunderground.com website can be used as a good resource to
> explore this.To illustrate my point, let's take two cities in North
> America. Mexico City doesn't get a nice graph like you get with such
> cities as Austin, where the high temperature for the year is clearly
> in August. However, that is not necessary to show that it is far apart
> from August. It is in either April or May. Well, you say, maybe that's
> because Mexico City is too close to the equator. Then what about
> Anchorage, Alaska, where it is clearly in July? You don't even have to
> get out of Texas for the highs to move around more than a month. As I
> stated earlier, the high in Austin is August. In Alpine, it's in June
> as it is in El Paso as well. I could go on, but anyone else can
> explore various cities as well as I can. In Maui, it's September....
>
> Victor
>
> --
> Scanned by iCritical.
>
>

--
Sent from my mobile device

Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>

[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

 

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Karl and Calendar People,
 
Karl, you wrote:
 
Mike can verify (or deny) my assumption that time lag is from the mid quarter days as specified in my clarification above.
 
I reply:
 
The important thing is that it compare the same parts of the calendar year and the year based on solstices and equinoxes. For instance, for Irv's proposed seasons, his calendar summer has its middle at the autumnal equinox. That means that the middle of that calendar summer is 3 months after the maximum declination time, the summer solstice. So that calendar's time-lag is 3 months.
 
To measure time-lag from temperature records, I look at the delay between the hottest and coldest months and the corresponding solstice.
 
For one way of determining the length of Summer (North), I place its middle 38 days after the summer solstice--so the middle of calendar summer is lagged by the correct amount after the middle  and maximum of high declination.
Or, alternatively, the end of North could be defined as the time when the solar declination 38 days previous is equal to the solar declination 38 days before June 1, the first day of North.
 
The June-September summer (or North, for international purposes) has advantages. The whole old-calendar months make it easier to describe and simpler to define to people. The time lag of 40 days is so close to 38 days that the difference is negligible in comparison to the unavoidable imprecision of the monthly temperature records. The time lag iss 40, even if you look for the lag such that the timelagged solar dec is equal at both ends of summer (unless I made an error). The dec then is .51 of maximum.
 
Mike Ossipoff
 

 

Karl

 

From: Palmen, KEV (Karl)
Sent: 16 June 2009 14:09
To: 'East Carolina University Calendar discussion List'
Subject: RE: Brief seasonal calendar position summary

 

Dear Irv, Mike and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 16 June 2009 13:51
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Brief seasonal calendar position summary

 

On 2009 Jun 16, at 07:52 , Palmen, KEV (Karl) wrote:

I think confusion has arisen about the time that the 6-week  or 1.25 month lag is from.

I have assumed it is from the points approximately halfway between the equinoxes and solstices (mid quarter points). So the Chinese calendar seasons have no lag and the traditional Western seasons beginning at each equinox and solstice have a  lag of about 1.5 months or 6.5 weeks.

Mike seems to be proposing a slightly smaller lag, making each season begin about a week before  its equinox or solstice. Irv’s six week lag would place an equinox or solstice into the first seven days of its season with the northward equinox occurring nearest the beginning of its season.

 

Irv replies:  I don't understand Karl's attempt to clarify what I wrote.  My proposed 6-week lag would place the northward equinox 6 weeks before the start of the spring quarter of the calendar, so that the start of the thermal spring season would more or less coincide with the start of the spring quarter.  Alternatively it would place the north solstice 6 weeks before the start of the summer quarter of the calendar, so that the start of the thermal summer season would more or less coincide with the start of the summer quarter.

 

Does Irv really intend to start the Summer quarter in early August and end it in early November?

 

The Chinese calendar seasons are direct correlations between ecliptic solar longitude and observed patterns of weather or nature, so by definition they have no lag -- in China.  That is to say, they suit the Chinese climate as perfectly as is possible when using a lunisolar calendar.  

 

I’m referring to the Chinese convention of starting Spring in early February etc. as evidenced in the names of solar terms  as listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#Solar_term . I assume this is what Mike is measuring his time lag against.

 

Karl

 

10(09(24

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