Joining list. Calendar reforms.

[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

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=20

Dear Karl and Calendar people=2C
=20
I found out=2C from your message=2C something that I didn't know=2C or that=
 had never occurred to me. I've pasted a topic from the end of the posting=
=2C up to the beginning of this reply:
=20
You wrote:
=20
...the length of the tropical year depends on when in the year it starts. T=
he figure of 365.24219 is just the mean for all starting points.
=20
=20
I reply:
=20
Yes=2C that is something that I didn't know before I joined this list. It w=
as pointed out to me=2C but it never occurred to me to actually apply it=2C=
 and so I kept using the mean tropical year=2C instead of the particular tr=
opical year relevant to the point of interest on the ecliptic.=20
=20
Ok=2C then 77/62 is more accurate for solar ecliptic longitude 32.5 degrees=
. Can you say exactly what is the length of a tropical year with respect to=
 32.5 degrees solar ecliptic longitude? I suppose I could try to find that =
from an ephemeris or almanac=2C by noting the (interpolated) date and time =
for that longitude in two successive years.
=20
After I left the computer yesterday=2C I realized that my concern about dri=
ft error resulting from starting a calendar in the year 1 A.D. was a bit na=
ive. For one thing=2C even if the error were allowed=2C it would be small. =
For another thing=2C as you pointed out below=2C there's no need to let tha=
t cause error.
=20
I understand from your previous posting that starting the calendar in retro=
acive-Gregorian 1 A.D. confers some advantage=2C somehow allowing the leapy=
ear rule implementation be be simpler or neater (for reasons that are beyon=
d my understanding right now).
=20
Anyway=2C I want a terrestrial-seasonal calendar. As a 2nd choice=2C I'd li=
ke a declination calendar. I certainly wouldn't let starting date be a stic=
king-point issue for me=2C whether or not I understand the reason for the 1=
 A.D. starting date.
=20
Must sign off now.
=20
Mike Ossipoff
=20
.=20
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DPID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR=
_sync:082009=

[zengyiping]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Dear Mike,
I have some questions:
1.Are the terrestrial-seasonal and declination calendars your new proposals to list?
2.Why you abandon your previous proposals such as the Improved Seasonal Calendar and Subjective Seasonal Calendar(fixed and non-fixed)?
3.Why you chose 32.5 degre as the beginning of North season?
4.Why North and South seasons in four diclination-seasonal year -divitions have 17 weeks and Northward and Southward seasons have 9 weeks?
5.Why the declination calendar's year should start with NorthwardI/1?
6.May you give out a new Calendar table(or dates list) for 2009~2015 as  examples?
Yiping Zeng 2/8/2009

> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 20:39:26 +0000
> From: nkklrp@...
> Subject: Re: Declination calendar details without escapes
> To: CALNDR-L@...
>
> A<3958B14F314B884890EEE2F4CCDAB6A6FA773E9515@...>
>
> <677CE4DD24B12C4B9FA138534E29FB1D06929F15@...>
> A<BLU134-W5F85675595DB83BCECE1DCF130@...>
> <677CE4DD24B12C4B9FA138534E29FB1D0692A127@...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2009 20:39:25.0538 (UTC) FILETIME=[288AD420:01CA12E8]
>
>
>
> =20
>
> Dear Karl and Calendar people=2C
> =20
> I found out=2C from your message=2C something that I didn't know=2C or that=
> had never occurred to me. I've pasted a topic from the end of the posting=
> =2C up to the beginning of this reply:
> =20
> You wrote:
> =20
> ...the length of the tropical year depends on when in the year it starts. T=
> he figure of 365.24219 is just the mean for all starting points.
> =20
> =20
> I reply:
> =20
> Yes=2C that is something that I didn't know before I joined this list. It w=
> as pointed out to me=2C but it never occurred to me to actually apply it=2C=
> and so I kept using the mean tropical year=2C instead of the particular tr=
> opical year relevant to the point of interest on the ecliptic.=20
> =20
> Ok=2C then 77/62 is more accurate for solar ecliptic longitude 32.5 degrees=
> . Can you say exactly what is the length of a tropical year with respect to=
> 32.5 degrees solar ecliptic longitude? I suppose I could try to find that =
> from an ephemeris or almanac=2C by noting the (interpolated) date and time =
> for that longitude in two successive years.
> =20
> After I left the computer yesterday=2C I realized that my concern about dri=
> ft error resulting from starting a calendar in the year 1 A.D. was a bit na=
> ive. For one thing=2C even if the error were allowed=2C it would be small. =
> For another thing=2C as you pointed out below=2C there's no need to let tha=
> t cause error.
> =20
> I understand from your previous posting that starting the calendar in retro=
> acive-Gregorian 1 A.D. confers some advantage=2C somehow allowing the leapy=
> ear rule implementation be be simpler or neater (for reasons that are beyon=
> d my understanding right now).
> =20
> Anyway=2C I want a terrestrial-seasonal calendar. As a 2nd choice=2C I'd li=
> ke a declination calendar. I certainly wouldn't let starting date be a stic=
> king-point issue for me=2C whether or not I understand the reason for the 1=
> A.D. starting date.
> =20
> Must sign off now.
> =20
> Mike Ossipoff
> =20
> .=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync.
> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DPID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR=
> _sync:082009=
>

---

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[zengyiping]

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Dear Mike,
I have some questions:
1.Are the terrestrical-seasonal and declination calendar your new proposals?
2.Why do you abandon your previous proposals such as Improved Seasonal Calendar and Subjective Seasonal Calendar(fixed and non-fixed).
3.Why do you choose 32.5 degrees as the beginning of North season?
4.Why do North and South seasons in four declination-seasonal year divisions have 17 weeks and northward and southward seasons have 9 weeks?
5.Why do you think the declination calendar's year should start with NorthwardI/1?
5.May you give out the new calendar dates table(or list)for 2009~2015 years as examples? Peaple will be easy to understand your new calendar ,I think so.
Yiping Zeng 2/8/2009

> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 20:39:26 +0000
> From: nkklrp@...
> Subject: Re: Declination calendar details without escapes
> To: CALNDR-L@...
>
> A<3958B14F314B884890EEE2F4CCDAB6A6FA773E9515@...>
>
> <677CE4DD24B12C4B9FA138534E29FB1D06929F15@...>
> A<BLU134-W5F85675595DB83BCECE1DCF130@...>
> <677CE4DD24B12C4B9FA138534E29FB1D0692A127@...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2009 20:39:25.0538 (UTC) FILETIME=[288AD420:01CA12E8]
>
>
>
> =20
>
> Dear Karl and Calendar people=2C
> =20
> I found out=2C from your message=2C something that I didn't know=2C or that=
> had never occurred to me. I've pasted a topic from the end of the posting=
> =2C up to the beginning of this reply:
> =20
> You wrote:
> =20
> ...the length of the tropical year depends on when in the year it starts. T=
> he figure of 365.24219 is just the mean for all starting points.
> =20
> =20
> I reply:
> =20
> Yes=2C that is something that I didn't know before I joined this list. It w=
> as pointed out to me=2C but it never occurred to me to actually apply it=2C=
> and so I kept using the mean tropical year=2C instead of the particular tr=
> opical year relevant to the point of interest on the ecliptic.=20
> =20
> Ok=2C then 77/62 is more accurate for solar ecliptic longitude 32.5 degrees=
> . Can you say exactly what is the length of a tropical year with respect to=
> 32.5 degrees solar ecliptic longitude? I suppose I could try to find that =
> from an ephemeris or almanac=2C by noting the (interpolated) date and time =
> for that longitude in two successive years.
> =20
> After I left the computer yesterday=2C I realized that my concern about dri=
> ft error resulting from starting a calendar in the year 1 A.D. was a bit na=
> ive. For one thing=2C even if the error were allowed=2C it would be small. =
> For another thing=2C as you pointed out below=2C there's no need to let tha=
> t cause error.
> =20
> I understand from your previous posting that starting the calendar in retro=
> acive-Gregorian 1 A.D. confers some advantage=2C somehow allowing the leapy=
> ear rule implementation be be simpler or neater (for reasons that are beyon=
> d my understanding right now).
> =20
> Anyway=2C I want a terrestrial-seasonal calendar. As a 2nd choice=2C I'd li=
> ke a declination calendar. I certainly wouldn't let starting date be a stic=
> king-point issue for me=2C whether or not I understand the reason for the 1=
> A.D. starting date.
> =20
> Must sign off now.
> =20
> Mike Ossipoff
> =20
> .=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync.
> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DPID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR=
> _sync:082009=
>

---

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[Karl Palmen]

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Dear Yiping, Mike and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of zengyiping
Sent: 02 August 2009 02:30
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Declination calendar details without escapes

 

Dear Mike,
I have some questions:
1.Are the terrestrial-seasonal and declination calendars your new proposals to list?
2.Why you abandon your previous proposals such as the Improved Seasonal Calendar and Subjective Seasonal Calendar(fixed and non-fixed)?
3.Why you chose 32.5 degre as the beginning of North season?

I believe this could be because the mean ecliptic longitude of June 1 00:00 UT is very close to this value.

4.Why North and South seasons in four diclination-seasonal year -divitions have 17 weeks and Northward and Southward seasons have 9 weeks?
5.Why the declination calendar's year should start with NorthwardI/1?
6.May you give out a new Calendar table(or dates list) for 2009~2015 as  examples?
Yiping Zeng 2/8/2009

It is possible to work out when the new calendar months would begin for most Gregorian years 2009 to 2015 without knowing the exact leap year rule.

For Gregorian 2009 and 2015 we have:

SouthII 1 = 5 January

SouthIII 1 = 2 February

SouthIV 1 =  2 March

 

NorthwardI 1 = 30 March (proposed new year)

NorthwardII 1 = 4 May

 

NorthI 1 = 1 June

NorthII 1 = 6 July

NorthIII 1 = 3 August

NorthIV 1  = 31 August

 

SouthwardI 1 = 28 September

SouthwardII 1 = 2 November

 

SouthI 1 = 30 November

 

using Mike’s  54 5444months.  Using 54 4544 months SouthII and NorthII would begin one week earlier (29 December 2008/2014, 29 June, 28 December). Also any three consecutive months not containing a leap week would have 13 weeks, so allowing quarter years to be used.

The leap year would probably be 2012, but could be either 2011 or 2013.  If the new year begins with NorthwardI, the leap week would occur as a fifth week SouthIV in the following Gregorian year. This makes it easy to make similar tables for 2010, 2011 and 2014. Tables for the other years (2012 and 2013) could  be constructed assuming 2012 has a leap week in SouthIV in Gregorian 2013.

Mike has suggested starting the new year with Northward. He could consider starting it with South, which is closer to the Gregorian new year. Starting it with SouthIII (middle of South) would bring it close to the Chinese new year.

Karl

10(11(13

 

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[zengyiping]

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Dear Karl,
You wrote :I believe this (32.5 degree)could be because the mean ecliptic longitude of June 1 00:00 UT is very close to this value.
But I think that ecliptic longitude of June 1 is about 70 degree.
It is'nt?
Yiping Zeng 3/Aug/09

---

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 13:02:44 +0100
From: karl.palmen@...
Subject: Declination Calendar Month Table RE: Declination calendar details without escapes
To: CALNDR-L@...

Dear Yiping, Mike and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of zengyiping
Sent: 02 August 2009 02:30
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Declination calendar details without escapes

 

Dear Mike,
I have some questions:
1.Are the terrestrial-seasonal and declination calendars your new proposals to list?
2.Why you abandon your previous proposals such as the Improved Seasonal Calendar and Subjective Seasonal Calendar(fixed and non-fixed)?
3.Why you chose 32.5 degre as the beginning of North season?

I believe this could be because the mean ecliptic longitude of June 1 00:00 UT is very close to this value.

4.Why North and South seasons in four diclination-seasonal year -divitions have 17 weeks and Northward and Southward seasons have 9 weeks?
5.Why the declination calendar's year should start with NorthwardI/1?
6.May you give out a new Calendar table(or dates list) for 2009~2015 as  examples?
Yiping Zeng 2/8/2009

It is possible to work out when the new calendar months would begin for most Gregorian years 2009 to 2015 without knowing the exact leap year rule.

For Gregorian 2009 and 2015 we have:

SouthII 1 = 5 January

SouthIII 1 = 2 February

SouthIV 1 =  2 March

 

NorthwardI 1 = 30 March (proposed new year)

NorthwardII 1 = 4 May

 

NorthI 1 = 1 June

NorthII 1 = 6 July

NorthIII 1 = 3 August

NorthIV 1  = 31 August

 

SouthwardI 1 = 28 September

SouthwardII 1 = 2 November

 

SouthI 1 = 30 November

 

using Mike’s  54 5444months.  Using 54 4544 months SouthII and NorthII would begin one week earlier (29 December 2008/2014, 29 June, 28 December). Also any three consecutive months not containing a leap week would have 13 weeks, so allowing quarter years to be used.

The leap year would probably be 2012, but could be either 2011 or 2013.  If the new year begins with NorthwardI, the leap week would occur as a fifth week SouthIV in the following Gregorian year. This makes it easy to make similar tables for 2010, 2011 and 2014. Tables for the other years (2012 and 2013) could  be constructed assuming 2012 has a leap week in SouthIV in Gregorian 2013.

Mike has suggested starting the new year with Northward. He could consider starting it with South, which is closer to the Gregorian new year. Starting it with SouthIII (middle of South) would bring it close to the Chinese new year.

Karl

10(11(13

 

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[Karl Palmen]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Dear Yiping, Mike and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of zengyiping
Sent: 03 August 2009 14:46
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Declination Calendar Month Table RE: Declination calendar details without escapes

 

Dear Karl,
You wrote :I believe this (32.5 degree)could be because the mean ecliptic longitude of June 1 00:00 UT is very close to this value.
But I think that ecliptic longitude of June 1 is about 70 degree.

Now I come to think about it, Yiping’s guess seems to be much nearer the correct value  given that the Northern solstice is 90 degrees.

32.5 degrees is in the early pert of Western Gemini, which is late April or possibly the start of May.

 

Karl

It is'nt?
Yiping Zeng 3/Aug/09

---

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 13:02:44 +0100
From: karl.palmen@...
Subject: Declination Calendar Month Table RE: Declination calendar details without escapes
To: CALNDR-L@...

Dear Yiping, Mike and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of zengyiping
Sent: 02 August 2009 02:30
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Declination calendar details without escapes

 

Dear Mike,
I have some questions:
1.Are the terrestrial-seasonal and declination calendars your new proposals to list?
2.Why you abandon your previous proposals such as the Improved Seasonal Calendar and Subjective Seasonal Calendar(fixed and non-fixed)?
3.Why you chose 32.5 degre as the beginning of North season?

I believe this could be because the mean ecliptic longitude of June 1 00:00 UT is very close to this value.

4.Why North and South seasons in four diclination-seasonal year -divitions have 17 weeks and Northward and Southward seasons have 9 weeks?
5.Why the declination calendar's year should start with NorthwardI/1?
6.May you give out a new Calendar table(or dates list) for 2009~2015 as  examples?
Yiping Zeng 2/8/2009

It is possible to work out when the new calendar months would begin for most Gregorian years 2009 to 2015 without knowing the exact leap year rule.

For Gregorian 2009 and 2015 we have:

SouthII 1 = 5 January

SouthIII 1 = 2 February

SouthIV 1 =  2 March

 

NorthwardI 1 = 30 March (proposed new year)

NorthwardII 1 = 4 May

 

NorthI 1 = 1 June

NorthII 1 = 6 July

NorthIII 1 = 3 August

NorthIV 1  = 31 August

 

SouthwardI 1 = 28 September

SouthwardII 1 = 2 November

 

SouthI 1 = 30 November

 

using Mike’s  54 5444months.  Using 54 4544 months SouthII and NorthII would begin one week earlier (29 December 2008/2014, 29 June, 28 December). Also any three consecutive months not containing a leap week would have 13 weeks, so allowing quarter years to be used.

The leap year would probably be 2012, but could be either 2011 or 2013.  If the new year begins with NorthwardI, the leap week would occur as a fifth week SouthIV in the following Gregorian year. This makes it easy to make similar tables for 2010, 2011 and 2014. Tables for the other years (2012 and 2013) could  be constructed assuming 2012 has a leap week in SouthIV in Gregorian 2013.

Mike has suggested starting the new year with Northward. He could consider starting it with South, which is closer to the Gregorian new year. Starting it with SouthIII (middle of South) would bring it close to the Chinese new year.

Karl

10(11(13

 

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[Karl Palmen]

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Dear Yiping and Calendar People

 

Perhaps Mike intends to have no lag in this calendar. If this were so, I’d expect an ecliptic longitude (for start of NorthI) of 31 degrees ( 360*4.5*7/365.24219 = 31.04789), given that the interval between the Northward equinox and the start of NorthI is about halfway between perihelion and aphelion.

 

Karl

 

10(11(13

 

From: Palmen, KEV (Karl)
Sent: 03 August 2009 14:56
To: 'East Carolina University Calendar discussion List'
Subject: 32.5 Ecliptic Longitude RE: Declination Calendar Month Table RE: ...

 

Dear Yiping, Mike and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of zengyiping
Sent: 03 August 2009 14:46
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Declination Calendar Month Table RE: Declination calendar details without escapes

 

Dear Karl,
You wrote :I believe this (32.5 degree)could be because the mean ecliptic longitude of June 1 00:00 UT is very close to this value.
But I think that ecliptic longitude of June 1 is about 70 degree.

Now I come to think about it, Yiping’s guess seems to be much nearer the correct value  given that the Northern solstice is 90 degrees.

32.5 degrees is in the early pert of Western Gemini, which is late April or possibly the start of May.

 

Karl

It is'nt?
Yiping Zeng 3/Aug/09

---

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 13:02:44 +0100
From: karl.palmen@...
Subject: Declination Calendar Month Table RE: Declination calendar details without escapes
To: CALNDR-L@...

Dear Yiping, Mike and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of zengyiping
Sent: 02 August 2009 02:30
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Declination calendar details without escapes

 

Dear Mike,
I have some questions:
1.Are the terrestrial-seasonal and declination calendars your new proposals to list?
2.Why you abandon your previous proposals such as the Improved Seasonal Calendar and Subjective Seasonal Calendar(fixed and non-fixed)?
3.Why you chose 32.5 degre as the beginning of North season?

I believe this could be because the mean ecliptic longitude of June 1 00:00 UT is very close to this value.

4.Why North and South seasons in four diclination-seasonal year -divitions have 17 weeks and Northward and Southward seasons have 9 weeks?
5.Why the declination calendar's year should start with NorthwardI/1?
6.May you give out a new Calendar table(or dates list) for 2009~2015 as  examples?
Yiping Zeng 2/8/2009

It is possible to work out when the new calendar months would begin for most Gregorian years 2009 to 2015 without knowing the exact leap year rule.

For Gregorian 2009 and 2015 we have:

SouthII 1 = 5 January

SouthIII 1 = 2 February

SouthIV 1 =  2 March

 

NorthwardI 1 = 30 March (proposed new year)

NorthwardII 1 = 4 May

 

NorthI 1 = 1 June

NorthII 1 = 6 July

NorthIII 1 = 3 August

NorthIV 1  = 31 August

 

SouthwardI 1 = 28 September

SouthwardII 1 = 2 November

 

SouthI 1 = 30 November

 

using Mike’s  54 5444months.  Using 54 4544 months SouthII and NorthII would begin one week earlier (29 December 2008/2014, 29 June, 28 December). Also any three consecutive months not containing a leap week would have 13 weeks, so allowing quarter years to be used.

The leap year would probably be 2012, but could be either 2011 or 2013.  If the new year begins with NorthwardI, the leap week would occur as a fifth week SouthIV in the following Gregorian year. This makes it easy to make similar tables for 2010, 2011 and 2014. Tables for the other years (2012 and 2013) could  be constructed assuming 2012 has a leap week in SouthIV in Gregorian 2013.

Mike has suggested starting the new year with Northward. He could consider starting it with South, which is closer to the Gregorian new year. Starting it with SouthIII (middle of South) would bring it close to the Chinese new year.

Karl

10(11(13

 

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[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

             A<3958B14F314B884890EEE2F4CCDAB6A6FA773E9515@...>
     
             <677CE4DD24B12C4B9FA138534E29FB1D06929F15@...>
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Dear Mike and Calendar People
=20
I noticed something rather interesting about Mike=92s Declination Calendar =
and the ISO-week based calendar.

=20
Yes=2C I chose 32.5 degrees partly because it's close to the solar ecliptic=
 longitude at which Gregorian June 1 typically begins. But also because it'=
s near the longitude at which the north solar declination reaches the top h=
alf of its range.
=20
The constraint of having Northward=2C North=2C Southward and South consist =
of whole numbers of weeks made it impossible to make NorthI/1 mark exactly =
the entry into top half of the north solar declination's range. I had to pi=
ck a longitude a little greater or less than the ideal. So I rounded in the=
 direction that moved it closer to the longitude typically corresponding to=
 midnight UT=2CJune 1 Gregorian. So it was both the declination and June 1 =
that together resulted in the choice of 32.5 degrees.
=20
Yes=2C I start every year and every year-division--seasons and months--on a=
 Monday.
=20
That's interesting good news about the frequent coinciding of the declinati=
on calendar's NorthI/1 with Gregorian June 1.
=20
Mike Ossipoff
=20
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DPID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR=
_sync:082009=

[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

 
Dear Yiping and Calendar People,

> I have some questions:

> 1.Are the terrestrial-seasonal and declination calendars your new proposals to list?
 
The declination calendar is a new proposal of mine. I was proposing terrestrial-seasonal calendars from the start though. The detailed proposal that I posted (Subjective Seasonal Calendar) before the declination calendar was the most recent version of my fixed calendar proposal for a terrestrial-seasonal calendar.

> 2.Why you abandon your previous proposals such as the Improved Seasonal Calendar and Subjective Seasonal Calendar(fixed and non-fixed)?
 
I abandoned the improved seasonal calendar becauses it had equal seasons, being only a small modification of Asimov's World Season Calendar. I abandoned it because I decided that equal seasons are too unrealistic and too at odds with the natural seasons.
 
I haven't abandoned the Subjective Seasonal Calendar (the one whose detailed specification I posted before that of the declination calendar). I merely have added the declination calendar to my terrestrial seasonal calendar proposal, the Subjective Seasonal Calendar, of which I previously posted a detailed specifican in its fixed version.

> 3.Why you chose 32.5 degre as the beginning of North season?
 
Because I want NorthI/1 to mark, as near as feasible, the entry of the solar north declination into the top half of its range. And, while doing that, I also wanted NorthI/1 to be close to the average June 1, Gregorian.

> 4.Why North and South seasons in four diclination-seasonal year -divitions have 17 weeks and Northward and Southward seasons have 9 weeks?
 
Because that's what has North as the season in which the north solar declination is in the top half of its range, as near as possible when seasons have whole numbers of weeks. And, while achieving that as well as possible, the season lengths I chose also are close to those of the Subjective Seasonal Calendar--NorthI/1 is close to June 1 Gregorian.
 

> 5.Why the declination calendar's year should start with NorthwardI/1?
 
I'm glad you asked. I meant to explain: I want New Year's Day to be in the wintertime in the north hemisphere and in the summertime in the southern hemisphere.
 
That's also why the terrestrial seasonal calendar (Subjective Seasonal) has its New Year's Day on SouthI/1.
 

> 6.May you give out a new Calendar table(or dates list) for 2009~2015 as examples?
> Yiping Zeng 2/8/2009
 
Yes, I'll post that within a day or two.
 
Mike Ossipoff
 
 
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[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

 
Dear Yiping,
 
 
> But I think that ecliptic longitude of June 1 is about 70 degree.
> It is'nt?

I'd have to check. But let me re-state my goals that led me to 32.5 degrees:
 
1. I wanted the longitude at which the north solar ecliptic longitude enters the north half of its range, as nearly as feasible.
 
2. I wanted, while achieving goal #1, for the length of North to be as close as possible to the length of North in the Subjective Seasonal Calendar, which attempts to match the average seasons in the temperate zones.
 
Yes, now that you mention it, it occurs to me that seaonal lag creates a difference between the declination calendar's NorthI/1 and that of the Subjective Seasonal Calendar, and therefore a distance between the declination calendar's NorthI/1 and june 1.
 
With the seasons' lengths matching those of the average perceived seasons in the temperate world, the declination calendar can be related to the seasons by merely adjusting for a region's timelag.
 
Mike Ossipoff
 
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[Karl Palmen]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Dear Calendar People

 

The table below was based on the assumption that NorthI began on Gregorian June 1 on average, so applies to the Subjective Seasonal  Calendar (with a lag) rather than a pure Declination Calendar with no lag.

 

Karl

 

10(11(13 till noon

 

From: Palmen, KEV (Karl)
Sent: 03 August 2009 13:03
To: 'East Carolina University Calendar discussion List'
Subject: Declination Calendar Month Table RE: Declination calendar details without escapes

 

Dear Yiping, Mike and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of zengyiping
Sent: 02 August 2009 02:30
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Declination calendar details without escapes

 

Dear Mike,
I have some questions:
1.Are the terrestrial-seasonal and declination calendars your new proposals to list?
2.Why you abandon your previous proposals such as the Improved Seasonal Calendar and Subjective Seasonal Calendar(fixed and non-fixed)?
3.Why you chose 32.5 degre as the beginning of North season?

I believe this could be because the mean ecliptic longitude of June 1 00:00 UT is very close to this value.

4.Why North and South seasons in four diclination-seasonal year -divitions have 17 weeks and Northward and Southward seasons have 9 weeks?
5.Why the declination calendar's year should start with NorthwardI/1?
6.May you give out a new Calendar table(or dates list) for 2009~2015 as  examples?
Yiping Zeng 2/8/2009

It is possible to work out when the new calendar months would begin for most Gregorian years 2009 to 2015 without knowing the exact leap year rule.

For Gregorian 2009 and 2015 we have:

SouthII 1 = 5 January

SouthIII 1 = 2 February

SouthIV 1 =  2 March

 

NorthwardI 1 = 30 March (proposed new year)

NorthwardII 1 = 4 May

 

NorthI 1 = 1 June

NorthII 1 = 6 July

NorthIII 1 = 3 August

NorthIV 1  = 31 August

 

SouthwardI 1 = 28 September

SouthwardII 1 = 2 November

 

SouthI 1 = 30 November

 

using Mike’s  54 5444months.  Using 54 4544 months SouthII and NorthII would begin one week earlier (29 December 2008/2014, 29 June, 28 December). Also any three consecutive months not containing a leap week would have 13 weeks, so allowing quarter years to be used.

The leap year would probably be 2012, but could be either 2011 or 2013.  If the new year begins with NorthwardI, the leap week would occur as a fifth week SouthIV in the following Gregorian year. This makes it easy to make similar tables for 2010, 2011 and 2014. Tables for the other years (2012 and 2013) could  be constructed assuming 2012 has a leap week in SouthIV in Gregorian 2013.

Mike has suggested starting the new year with Northward. He could consider starting it with South, which is closer to the Gregorian new year. Starting it with SouthIII (middle of South) would bring it close to the Chinese new year.

Karl

10(11(13

 

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[Karl Palmen]

Dear Mike and Calendar People

-----Original Message-----
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
[mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of MIKE OSSIPOFF
Sent: 04 August 2009 00:38
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Ossipof declination calendar and ISO Week


Dear Mike and Calendar People

I noticed something rather interesting about Mike=92s Declination
Calendar =
and the ISO-week based calendar.

Yes, I chose 32.5 degrees partly because it's close to the solar
ecliptic longitude at which Gregorian June 1 typically begins. But also
because it's near the longitude at which the north solar declination
reaches the top half of its range.

KARL SAYS: I was wrong to assume the 32.5 degree ecliptic longitude for
June 1. It is nearer 70 degrees.
What I said in this note applies to the calendar, where NorthI begins on
June 1 00:00 UT on average.

Karl

10(11(12
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[Karl Palmen]

Dear Mike and Calendar People

-----Original Message-----
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
[mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of MIKE OSSIPOFF
Sent: 04 August 2009 00:51
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Declination calendar details without escapes


> 3.Why you chose 32.5 degre as the beginning of North season?
 
Because I want NorthI/1 to mark, as near as feasible, the entry of the
solar north declination into the top half of its range. And, while doing
that, I also wanted NorthI/1 to be close to the average June 1,
Gregorian.

KARL ASKS: How did Mike get 32.5 degrees?

If the declination as a function of ecliptic longitude were sinusoidal,
which I think is a very good approximation, then I'd expect 30 degrees,
because the Sine of 30 degrees is a half.

Perhaps, Make is taking into account that a short season of 9 weeks is
slightly longer than half a long season of 17 weeks.
This I reckon would raise it to just 31 degrees ( 4.5*7*360/365.24219 =
31.04789 ). This assumes an average rate of change of ecliptic longitude
between the Northward equinox and the start of NorthI, which I think is
quite realistic for that time of year.

Karl

10(11(13 till noon

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[Karl Palmen]

Dear Mike and Calendar People

-----Original Message-----
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
[mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of MIKE OSSIPOFF
Sent: 04 August 2009 00:51
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Declination calendar details without escapes

 
Dear Yiping and Calendar People,

> I have some questions:


> 3.Why you chose 32.5 degre as the beginning of North season?
 
Because I want NorthI/1 to mark, as near as feasible, the entry of the
solar north declination into the top half of its range. And, while doing
that, I also wanted NorthI/1 to be close to the average June 1,
Gregorian.

KARL SAYS:
I found a declination table at
http://www.wsanford.com/~wsanford/exo/sundials/DEC_Sun.html (referred to
by Wikipedia) which claims to be an average over a four-year leap year
cycle, but it does not state which four year leap year cycle it is
averaging over. I don't think it is really averaging over any particular
four-year leap year cycle, but is assuming the mean declination for
March 21 is exactly zero.

So bearing in mind that the Northward equinox is usually March 20 rather
than March 21, one can use the table to find which dates the declination
is half way (11 deg 43 min). I get Feb 17/18, Apr 20, Aug 22 and Oct
23/24.

Now I try fitting the seasons of 9 and 17 weeks to these assuming the
leap week is put at the end of the South season.
I find that Aug 22 is 124 days after Apr 20, which is just two days
short of 18 weeks.

The following is a fairly good fit: Apr 22, Aug 19, Oct 21, Feb 17. So
these Gregorian dates could be the average start dates of the four
unequal seasons. There declinations (after correcting equinox to March
20) are 12:20, 12:39, 10:50, 11:34 degrees:minutes respectively.

A better fit could be obtained if the leap week were put in the season
containing the Aphelion (i.e. North). Then North would have an average
of about 120.24 days rather than 119 days, which is closer to the 124
days reckoned earlier on.

Karl

10(11(14
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[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

Dear Yiping,
 
As I use the term, "terrestrial seasonal" is a broad classification of calendars. What they have in common is that they attempt to represent the natural seasons. Subjective Seasonal is one terrestrial seasonal calendar. Others are: Asimov's World Season Calendar, and your one with equal seasons, based on equinoxes and solstices.

You wrote:

 I think that ecliptic longitude of June 1 is about 70 degree.
It is'nt?
 
I reply:
 
I looked it up, and it's just as you said.
 
As I was saying in my corrected statement of goals for the declination calendar, I should have said that I wanted the length of North and South in the declination calendar to be close to the length of North and South in the Subjective Seasonal Calendar. While having NorthI/1 occur as near as possible to the point where the north declination is half of its maximum value, as nearly as possible, given that the year-divisions must have whole numbers of weeks.
 
Mike Ossipoff

 
 
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[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

             <677CE4DD24B12C4B9FA138534E29FB1D0692A31F@...>
             A<BAY138-W837D31704D7D9D24B340FD90F0@...>
 <677CE4DD24B12C4B9FA138534E29FB1D0692A387@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2009 22:54:07.0011 (UTC) FILETIME=[78B6FF30:01CA1556]


=20
Sorry--I mis-worded my definition of "days-per-degree". Here is what I mean=
t to say:
=20
"Degrees-per-day" is the absolute value of the result of dividing (days bet=
ween midnight UT=2C NorthI/1 and the outside midnight [formerly called "out=
side date] by (the difference between the solar ecliptic longitudes at thos=
e two midnights)
=20
Mike Ossipoff
=20
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=20
Dear Karl and Calendar People=2C
=20
You wrote:
>
> Perhaps Mike intends to have no lag in this calendar.=20
=20
Yes=2C the declination calendar isn't time-lagged=2C with respect to solsti=
ces=2C as a terrestrial seasonal calendar would be.
=20
=20
If this
> were so=2C I=92d expect an ecliptic longitude (for start of NorthI) of 31=
 degrees (
> 360*4.5*7/365.24219 =3D 31.04789)=2C given that the interval between the =
Northward
> equinox and the start of NorthI is about halfway between perihelion and
> aphelion.
=20
I couldn't choose the longitude for NOrthI/1 to make the north declination =
exactly half of its maximum=2C because it's necessary for North=2C South=2C=
 Northward & Southward to have whole numbers of weeks. Since I had to round=
 one way or the other=2C to a whole number of weeks for North=2C I rounded =
in the direction that put North's length closer to that of North in Subject=
ive Seasonal.
=20
That's how I arrived at 32.5 degrees.
=20
Mike Ossipoff
=20
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[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

Dear Karl and Calendar People,
 
You wrote:

> If the declination as a function of ecliptic longitude were sinusoidal,
> which I think is a very good approximation, then I'd expect 30 degrees,
> because the Sine of 30 degrees is a half.
 
Yes, it could be expected to be close to 30 degrees for that reason. But that results in a North season longer than 17 weeks, but shorter than 18 weeks. For maximum convenience, it's necessary for the year-divisions to have whole numbers of weeks, and so it was necessary to round off the number of weeks to a whole number. I rounded down to 17 weeks because a 17 week North is closer to the Subjective Seasonal Calendar than an 18 week North would be.
 
So, for the shorter North, North begins a little later, at solar ecliptic longitude 32.5 degrees.
 
Mike Ossipoff

 
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[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

 
 
 
Dear Karl and Calendar People,
 
 
> I found a declination table at
> http://www.wsanford.com/~wsanford/exo/sundials/DEC_Sun.html (referred to
> by Wikipedia) which claims to be an average over a four-year leap year
> cycle, but it does not state which four year leap year cycle it is
> averaging over. I don't think it is really averaging over any particular
> four-year leap year cycle, but is assuming the mean declination for
> March 21 is exactly zero.
 
I used a declination table in Bowditch. It was for 2007, but the important thing is the _duration_ for which the north declination is above some particular value that is close to half-maximum. So any reasonably nearby year will do. I wanted that duration (the length of North) to be a whole number of weeks. I rounded down to 17 weeks instead of up to 18 weeks, in order to get closer to the North-duration of the Subjective Seasonal Calendar. I did that even though 18 weeks would have put the north declination at the typical NorthI/1 a little closer to half of the maximum north declination.
 
Having found, from that table, what declination I wanted, for the beginning and end of North, I calculated the corresponding solar ecliptic longitude, and got something close to 32.5  It seems to me that I got 32.47, which I rounded to 32.5
 
For this calendar, there'd be no objection to moving leapweek into North. It's only in the nonfixed version of Subjective Seasonal that I want leapweek in South, in order to make NorthI/1 always correspond to Gregorian June 1 (which is possible because, for that calendar, I'd keep the Gregorian leapyear system, largely for proposal-simplicity).
 
And of course, in general, I don't dispute any changes in leapyear-rule, starting date, positioning of leapweek, etc. The important thing to me is that a new calendara be either a terrestrial seasonal calendar (a good one like Subjective Seasonal) or a declination calendar. mY first choice is Subjective Seasonal or another similarly good terrestrial seasonal calendar. My 2nd choice is a declination calendar. Beyond that, wouldn't dispute any changes in details such as those I listed at the beginning of this paragraph.
 
Mike Ossipoff
 
 
 
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[Karl Palmen]

Dear Mike and Calendar People

Thank you Mike for your reply.

I throws some light in his choice of 32.5 degrees. It does not explain
completely how Mike got his 32.5 degrees value. The 32.5 degree value
will not be accepted unless its derivation is made fully transparent (so
others can do it).

It also shows that 32.5 degrees is not fundamental to his idea.

What is fundamental is the idea that the mean starts of the four seasons
are chosen to as close to the half maximum declination as possible,
within the constraints of the 9 and 17 week seasons.

I made a suggestion to that effect.
 
If the leap week is moved to the North season. The following average
dates would fit well.
April 21(11:55), Aug 19(12:39), Oct 21(10:50), Feb 17(11:55).
Declinations are shown in (degrees:minutes).
The April 21 date is replaced by April 20 in leap years to keep it
occurring 9 weeks after Feb 17. The declination of that date has been
interpolated to take account of that.
The fit is very good for the start and end of the Northward season.

These would be better expressed in days after a Northward equinox
397 days (11:55), 152 days (12:39), 215 days (10:50),  334 days (11:55)
owing to the table of declinations assuming zero declination on a fixed
date.

The 397 day difference is after the northward equinox before the
previous northward equinox, to occur 9 weeks after previous season
start.

One advantage of expressing it in days after an equinox is that the
jitter of the Gregorian calendar is isolated. I think that is why Mike
chose an ecliptic longitude rather than a date.


Karl

10(11(15


-----Original Message-----
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
[mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of MIKE OSSIPOFF
Sent: 05 August 2009 00:49
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Declination calendar details without escapes


> I found a declination table at
> http://www.wsanford.com/~wsanford/exo/sundials/DEC_Sun.html  (referred
to
> by Wikipedia) which claims to be an average over a four-year leap year
> cycle, but it does not state which four year leap year cycle it is
> averaging over. I don't think it is really averaging over any
particular
> four-year leap year cycle, but is assuming the mean declination for
> March 21 is exactly zero.
 
I used a declination table in Bowditch. It was for 2007, but the
important thing is the _duration_ for which the north declination is
above some particular value that is close to half-maximum. So any
reasonably nearby year will do. I wanted that duration (the length of
North) to be a whole number of weeks. I rounded down to 17 weeks instead
of up to 18 weeks, in order to get closer to the North-duration of the
Subjective Seasonal Calendar. I did that even though 18 weeks would have
put the north declination at the typical NorthI/1 a little closer to
half of the maximum north declination.
 
Having found, from that table, what declination I wanted, for the
beginning and end of North, I calculated the corresponding solar
ecliptic longitude, and got something close to 32.5  It seems to me that
I got 32.47, which I rounded to 32.5
 
For this calendar, there'd be no objection to moving leapweek into
North. It's only in the nonfixed version of Subjective Seasonal that I
want leapweek in South, in order to make NorthI/1 always correspond to
Gregorian June 1 (which is possible because, for that calendar, I'd keep
the Gregorian leapyear system, largely for proposal-simplicity).
 
And of course, in general, I don't dispute any changes in leapyear-rule,
starting date, positioning of leapweek, etc. The important thing to me
is that a new calendara be either a terrestrial seasonal calendar (a
good one like Subjective Seasonal) or a declination calendar. mY first
choice is Subjective Seasonal or another similarly good terrestrial
seasonal calendar. My 2nd choice is a declination calendar. Beyond that,
wouldn't dispute any changes in details such as those I listed at the
beginning of this paragraph.
 
Mike Ossipoff
 
 
 
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