Just wondering..

[John Gardner-3]

Actually the instance I'm aware of is a Church ( in Mexico)
where the proprietor OD'd on services being interrupted by
ringing phones ...


On 2/27/08, Herbert Graf <mailinglist4@...> wrote:

>
> On Wed, 2008-02-27 at 21:45 -0500, David VanHorn wrote:
> > >  Because where would it end?
> > >
> > >  What about in church? What about on a bus? What about in a restaurant?
> > >
> > >  Where is the line drawn, and who draws it?
> > >
> > >  Frankly, the less big brother is "taking care" of me, the better.
> >
> > I agree, but I see a "request for quiet mode" as far less of a problem
> > than jamming, which some places are resorting to already.
>
> Jamming will not continue. In many places it's already illegal. In
> others it will eventually become illegal.
>
> There are many reasons for this, one is the lobbying power of the cell
> providers, jamming takes money out of their pockets.
>
> Liability is another. If jamming becomes pervasive it won't be long
> before lawsuits and possibly even criminal proceedings start. All it
> takes is one case where a cell user couldn't call 911 and someone died
> to trigger an onslaught of the courts against jamming.
>
> Even people avoiding places that are jamming will result in jamming
> dissappearing. Most people think jamming in a movie theatre is a good
> idea (for the record I don't but then, I rarely go to movie theatres
> anymore, they are slowly dieing and likely won't be around much longer),
> until your family can't reach you to tell you your daugter is giving
> birth because you were in a theatre that had jamming.
>
> TTYL
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[William "Chops" Westfield]

On Feb 27, 2008, at 5:04 PM, David VanHorn wrote:

> I've wondered why cell phones don't incorporate a
> receiver for a control signal to put them on silent/vibrate/no light
> etc that could be used for movie theaters etc.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6907254.html?
highlight=6907254&stemming=on

  :-)

The problem is that in general a "cell" does not match up with the  
"quiet zone" area.  But something like this ought to be possible to  
implement now that phones are incorporating more "local" connectivity  
such as 802.11 or even bluetooth.  And the GPS on other phones might  
come into play as well, even if the connectivity isn't as localized.  
(hmm.  Wonder if that's worth updating the patent?)  All you really  
need is a way to determine that the phone is IN a "quiet area" and a  
way to tell it to be quiet.

BillW

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[David VanHorn-2]

>
>  The problem is that in general a "cell" does not match up with the
>  "quiet zone" area.  But something like this ought to be possible to
>  implement now that phones are incorporating more "local" connectivity
>  such as 802.11 or even bluetooth.  And the GPS on other phones might
>  come into play as well, even if the connectivity isn't as localized.
>  (hmm.  Wonder if that's worth updating the patent?)  All you really
>  need is a way to determine that the phone is IN a "quiet area" and a
>  way to tell it to be quiet.


Inductive loop signalling.  Pickup is great inside the loop and next
to nothing outside it.
Plus you wouldn't need FCC approval, just use some nice low frequency.
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[Russell McMahon]

>> > >  Because where would it end?
>> > >
>> > >  What about in church? What about on a bus? What
>> > > about in a restaurant?
>> > >
>> > >  Where is the line drawn, and who draws it?
>> > >
>> > >  Frankly, the less big brother is "taking care" of
>> > > me, the better.
>> >
>> > I agree, but I see a "request for quiet mode" as far
>> > less of a problem
>> > than jamming, which some places are resorting to
>> > already.
>>
>> Jamming will not continue. In many places it's already
>> illegal. In
>> others it will eventually become illegal.
>>
>> There are many reasons for this, one is the lobbying
>> power of the cell
>> providers, jamming takes money out of their pockets.
>>
>> Liability is another. If jamming becomes pervasive it
>> won't be long

It's interesting to see which way this thread has gone.
Some such fall on one side of the personal freedoms fence,
some on the other. Some manage some balance. This one seems
to be almost all in one paddock only.

I'm vaguely, but only vaguely, surprised that few if any
seem to be bothered by the oafs (and others) who take their
expressions of personal liberty far beyond the bounds of the
classic "my personal right to wave my fists around ends
where the tip of your nose begins" comment. The "my daughter
is due to have a baby" type defence  sounds fine enough, but
you can bet the 3 zillion, 445 thousand, 2 hundred and 12
people whose cellphone rang while you were in the 'insert
favourite once silent location here' and who then proceeded
to yell into it for the next 47 hours, more or much
(probably) less had no concerns with imminent maternity or
anything approaching the importance. The "my life depends in
it" defence is also fine enough, but will lock us all within
cell sites forever, or lead to government action to enforce
the 18th amendment right of all people to be within
cellphone coverage at all times within US territory. etc.
[Once all cellphones have mandatory GPS etc tracking
capability the government could become extremely interested
in supporting your rights in this area.] Goes along with the
life preserving qualities of bear-arms perhaps. We not
having such ursine accoutrements here-down-under, and an
often rugged and radio opaque landscape, are much the more
at risk of early termination, I suppose. The availability of
the two may help restore the balance of market forces in the
US - L Ron Hubbard's once recommended "45 Clear" is probably
an excellent silencer, with or without silencer, for any
cellphone, concealed carry or no. I understand that Texans
may prefer to use chainsaws.



            R


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[David VanHorn-2]

>  at risk of early termination, I suppose. The availability of
>  the two may help restore the balance of market forces in the
>  US - L Ron Hubbard's once recommended "45 Clear" is probably
>  an excellent silencer, with or without silencer, for any
>  cellphone, concealed carry or no. I understand that Texans
>  may prefer to use chainsaws.

R2-45. I know it well.
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[John Gardner-3]

> the 18th amendment right of all people to be within
> cellphone coverage at all times within US territory. etc.
> [Once all cellphones have mandatory GPS etc tracking
> capability the government could become extremely interested
> in supporting your rights in this area...

Good to hear - Suppose this means I'll have to produce a cell
phone at the checkpoints? I've been meaning to buy one...

Jack

On 2/27/08, David VanHorn <microbrix@...> wrote:

> >  at risk of early termination, I suppose. The availability of
> >  the two may help restore the balance of market forces in the
> >  US - L Ron Hubbard's once recommended "45 Clear" is probably
> >  an excellent silencer, with or without silencer, for any
> >  cellphone, concealed carry or no. I understand that Texans
> >  may prefer to use chainsaws.
>
> R2-45. I know it well.
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[Cedric Chang-2]

I am not user if I understood the following:
In fact I AM SURE that I did not understand what follows:
Huh ?  Care to tell me where that leaves you fence-wise ?

> It's interesting to see which way this thread has gone.
> Some such fall on one side of the personal freedoms fence,
> some on the other. Some manage some balance. This one seems
> to be almost all in one paddock only.
>
> I'm vaguely, but only vaguely, surprised that few if any
> seem to be bothered by the oafs (and others) who take their
> expressions of personal liberty far beyond the bounds of the
> classic "my personal right to wave my fists around ends
> where the tip of your nose begins" comment. The "my daughter
> is due to have a baby" type defence  sounds fine enough, but
> you can bet the 3 zillion, 445 thousand, 2 hundred and 12
> people whose cellphone rang while you were in the 'insert
> favourite once silent location here' and who then proceeded
> to yell into it for the next 47 hours, more or much
> (probably) less had no concerns with imminent maternity or
> anything approaching the importance. The "my life depends in
> it" defence is also fine enough, but will lock us all within
> cell sites forever, or lead to government action to enforce
> the 18th amendment right of all people to be within
> cellphone coverage at all times within US territory. etc.
> [Once all cellphones have mandatory GPS etc tracking
> capability the government could become extremely interested
> in supporting your rights in this area.] Goes along with the
> life preserving qualities of bear-arms perhaps. We not
> having such ursine accoutrements here-down-under, and an
> often rugged and radio opaque landscape, are much the more
> at risk of early termination, I suppose. The availability of
> the two may help restore the balance of market forces in the
> US - L Ron Hubbard's once recommended "45 Clear" is probably
> an excellent silencer, with or without silencer, for any
> cellphone, concealed carry or no. I understand that Texans
> may prefer to use chainsaws.
>
>
>
>             R
>

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[Russell McMahon]

>>  at risk of early termination, I suppose. The
>> availability of
>>  the two may help restore the balance of market forces in
>> the
>>  US - L Ron Hubbard's once recommended "45 Clear" is
>> probably
>>  an excellent silencer, with or without silencer, for any
>>  cellphone, concealed carry or no. I understand that
>> Texans
>>  may prefer to use chainsaws.
>
> R2-45. I know it well.

Ah. I didn't realise that it had a formal name

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R2-45

        http://www.planetkc.com/sloth/sci/R2-45.html

I'd see it as a somewhat dark joke. Or possibly as a way of
making opponents think twice.

At a venture I Gargoyled

        "R2 Chainsaw"

and saw that a few hardy souls had  been there before me
eg

        http://www.playstationalley.com/ps/EvilDeadHailK.htm

Just a fluke it seems, but interesting.


        R


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[Alan B. Pearce]

>>> * There were two people talking very loudly on their cell phones and
>>> to each other for about 3 hours during the night who ignored the
>>> impotent conductor's pleas to stop
>
>I want someone to invent a new product.  It searches out the local
>cell phone transactions and inserts an annoying 'whine" into their
>conversations.

I dunno- a little spark gap generator in ones pocket should create enough
interference such that the phone cannot hear the base anymore should do it.

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[Russell McMahon]

>>I want someone to invent a new product.  It searches out
>>the local
>>cell phone transactions and inserts an annoying 'whine"
>>into their
>>conversations.

> I dunno- a little spark gap generator in ones pocket
> should create enough
> interference such that the phone cannot hear the base
> anymore should do it.

A 2 kW 27 MHz single tube self oscillating plastic welder,
with a little help from a 1/4 wave whip taped on the wall
works wonders for stereos played at full volume night after
night at 2am. Ask me how I know :-). (Not my apartment - I
just provided the plastic welder.) But, it would be a mite
hard to fit that rig in your pocket. In a panel van, no
problem, even including the 5 kVA gen set.




        Russell




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[Gerhard Fiedler]

William "Chops" Westfield wrote:

> On Feb 27, 2008, at 4:23 AM, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>
>> Heck, we already /know/ that most things we create don't last longer
>> than a few years.
>
> We've been storing nuclear waste of one sort or another for close
> to 60 years now.  That should be something of a case study.  

It maybe is, and it seems to tell us that none of these sites worked
without constant and close supervision and without fault. So these "case
studies" seem to contradict the ones that say otherwise.

> As far as I know, the (known) ecological consequences have been less than
> those from conventional mining of various sorts, or even farmland
> construction via rain forest destruction.  (and perhaps less than the
> results of burning 60y worth of fossil fuels.)

As I already said, I don't want to say which one is worse. I don't know,
and I don't see a way to tell for sure. But I think the storage scenario is
much less certain than some would like to present it, and much less
"factual". I always go into "deep distrust" mode when someone wants to
claim facts for the future, and when that is the future over several
thousand years, that becomes "deep deep distrust" :)  Our past is the only
"case study" we have for something like that, and a little bit of history
would do good to consider in this context. (Don't forget: /one/ case study
is not science... Science is about "statistical consensus", and one case is
not enough to even start with statistics.)

Gerhard

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[Carey Fisher - NCS]

James Newton wrote:
> Wouter, I don't understand the difference between naturally occurring veins
> of radioactive ore being exposed by some natural or unnatural upheaval and
> that same sort of exposure happening to spent fuel rods.
>
> Shit happens.
The "Law of Unintended Consequences" is the problem here.  I think it's
likely that something we
currently don't know will bite us in the butt.  And do we want a
mountain full of nuclear
waste to be the biter?
Carey
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[Neil Cherry]

Cedric Chang wrote:

> What is your favourite way to travel and how safe do you think it is ?
>
> I can't think of a better metric than deaths per enjoyment mile .  
> The lower the D/EM , the better.
> enjoyment mile is one mile times an enjoyment factor.
>
> I like to travel by skis, snowmobile, scooter, inflatable raft ( in  
> river ) , bicycle.  Driving is fun in rural areas or city streets,  
> boring and alarming in commuter traffic.   I hate commercial flying  
> ( boring ).

In order:

1) Bicycling
2) Walking
3) Train
4) Bus
5) Flying

I love to ride my bicycle and as soon as my light system is
repaired it's commuter time! I'm building a new light system
and I'm hoping it will be made of easily obtainable parts.
Oddly enough I'd rather cycle than drive, especially long
distances. Just something good about the feeling that you
did it under your own power.

I hate flying, I get to waste more time, going to the Airport,
parking, check-in, flying then everything in reverse. It's a
day wasted! it could also be the wonderful times I've spent
traveling for work. One time, on a flight down to Florida,
I got stuck with a bunch of immigrant who carried on chickens
(yes live chickens). There were feathers everywhere. To make
matters worse I was at the back of the plane and when we landed
the plane had an electrical burning smell and they turned off
the lights in the cabin (not a good sign). I immediately noted
the emergency exits and calm stepped forward with everyone else.
Once I got off the plane I made a B line out of there. Flying
sucks!

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[David VanHorn-2]

On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Carey Fisher <careyfisher@...> wrote:
> James Newton wrote:
> > Wouter, I don't understand the difference between naturally occurring veins
> > of radioactive ore being exposed by some natural or unnatural upheaval and
> > that same sort of exposure happening to spent fuel rods.

Fuel rods would have isotopes and elements that don't occur in nature.
Still, the hot stuff decays fast, and the cool stuff is well... cool.

Interestingly, humans didn't invent nuclear waste either.
http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/factsheets/doeymp0010.shtml
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[David VanHorn-2]

> Interestingly, humans didn't invent nuclear waste either.
> http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/factsheets/doeymp0010.shtml
>

Interesting note:

"Once the natural reactors burned themselves out, the highly
radioactive waste they generated was held in place deep under Oklo by
the granite, sandstone, and clays surrounding the reactors' areas.
Plutonium has moved less than 10 feet from where it was formed almost
two billion years ago."
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[Wouter van Ooijen]

> > Interestingly, humans didn't invent nuclear waste either.
> > http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/factsheets/doeymp0010.shtml
> >
>
> Interesting note:
>
> "Once the natural reactors burned themselves out, the highly
> radioactive waste they generated was held in place deep under
> Oklo by the granite, sandstone, and clays surrounding the
> reactors' areas. Plutonium has moved less than 10 feet from
> where it was formed almost two billion years ago."

Interesting, but do keep the base rate principle in mind when
interpreting this. If long ago a compareable natural reactor would have
been split up by an quacke, and its content washed into the oceans by
rain, how would we ever know about it?

Wouter van Ooijen

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[David VanHorn-2]

> Interesting, but do keep the base rate principle in mind when
> interpreting this. If long ago a compareable natural reactor would have
> been split up by an quacke, and its content washed into the oceans by
> rain, how would we ever know about it?

So if it makes no noticable difference, is it a problem?

Obviously the "containment" at Oklo lasted a hell of a long time, and
it probably isn't the only site where this has happened.

The idea is that we can in fact dispose of waste products in a place
that has been stable for millions of years, and after 10kyears, a
geological "moment", it decays to safe levels.

Remember too that geology isn't coin flips.  A site that has been
stable for a long time is very likely to remain so.
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[Peter Todd]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 04:38:48PM +0100, wouter van ooijen wrote:

> > > Interestingly, humans didn't invent nuclear waste either.
> > > http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/factsheets/doeymp0010.shtml
> > >
> >
> > Interesting note:
> >
> > "Once the natural reactors burned themselves out, the highly
> > radioactive waste they generated was held in place deep under
> > Oklo by the granite, sandstone, and clays surrounding the
> > reactors' areas. Plutonium has moved less than 10 feet from
> > where it was formed almost two billion years ago."
>
> Interesting, but do keep the base rate principle in mind when
> interpreting this. If long ago a compareable natural reactor would have
> been split up by an quacke, and its content washed into the oceans by
> rain, how would we ever know about it?

We wouldn't. The point is that the above example shows that for the
given conditions that natural reactor was exposed to the granite,
sandstone and clays do a good job at keeping the plutonium and other
wastes in place. You can then use that knowledge, and other geological
knowledge, to make sure that a proposed dump will be exposed to similar
conditions.

- --
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[Cedric Chang-2]

The LOUC is the same as the bogeyman behind the tree, the glowing  
green frogs, etc.  LOUC is proportional to the Hubris Factor.  
Anyway, a mountain full of Nook waste is a far less of a problem to  
deal with than Global Warming.  See ...... on the one hand, there is  
hand wringing about Global Warming ( which I have severe reservations  
about ) and the same people who wring their hands and say it is going  
to wipe us out ,offer such limp wristed solutions such as collecting  
plastic at the curb, or let's use wind power ( big wind farms ----->  
LOUC ---> you ain't seen nothing yet ) or solar.  I have nothing  
against solar, it is a technology that perhaps will solve everything  
in the future.  Right now It is not ready for prime time.  If humans  
really cause GW and if it is really happening, then first, " let's  
kill all the people."  [Henry VI]             ::-]    ( i wear glasses )
cc

> On Feb 28, 2008, at 6:49 AM, Carey Fisher wrote:
>
> James Newton wrote:
>> Wouter, I don't understand the difference between naturally  
>> occurring veins
>> of radioactive ore being exposed by some natural or unnatural  
>> upheaval and
>> that same sort of exposure happening to spent fuel rods.
>>
>> Shit happens.
> The "Law of Unintended Consequences" is the problem here.  I think  
> it's
> likely that something we
> currently don't know will bite us in the butt.  And do we want a
> mountain full of nuclear
> waste to be the biter?
> Carey
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>

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[Wouter van Ooijen]

> We wouldn't. The point is that the above example shows that
> for the given conditions that natural reactor was exposed to
> the granite, sandstone and clays do a good job at keeping the
> plutonium and other wastes in place. You can then use that
> knowledge, and other geological knowledge, to make sure that
> a proposed dump will be exposed to similar conditions.

I disagree. You are confusing correlation with cause-and-effect. Without
much much more proof (much more than 1 non-random sample) I do not trust
anyone to correctly identify the factors that made this site stable. Not
for anything as important as dumping spent fuel.

Wouter van Ooijen

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