KDE 4.2 requires local MySQL Server

[Andreas M. Kirchwitz-3]

        Hi folks,

most people with automatic updates might not have noticed, but if
you look closer, the recent bunch of updates, including KDE 4.2,
installs the MySQL server on the machine (and some other database
related stuff which MySQL depends on).

It's the "akonadi" package that requires a MySQL server to run.
Google shows that there's been a long discussion about this issue
some months ago. Unfortunately, akonadi cannot be uninstalled,
because that will break a lot of KDE dependencies.

Is there an easy way around it? An end-user desktop environment
requires a full-blown local database to be setup and run. Wow, I
didn't know that so many users are professional database admins
and know what to do. No KDE without MySQL.

For now, the KDE 4.2 stuff can be ignored:

 yum update -x akonadi -x 'kde*' -x 'PyKDE*' -x ksysguardd -x oxygen-icon-theme

Of couse, KDE updates cannot be ignored forever ...

Is this MySQL dependency by intention? Couldn't find anything
helpful on this or on the devel mailing list, although this is
a big issue, IMHO.

        Confused ... Andreas

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[Ed Greshko]

Andreas M. Kirchwitz wrote:

>
>
> most people with automatic updates might not have noticed, but if
> you look closer, the recent bunch of updates, including KDE 4.2,
> installs the MySQL server on the machine (and some other database
> related stuff which MySQL depends on).
>
> It's the "akonadi" package that requires a MySQL server to run.
> Google shows that there's been a long discussion about this issue
> some months ago. Unfortunately, akonadi cannot be uninstalled,
> because that will break a lot of KDE dependencies.
>
> Is there an easy way around it? An end-user desktop environment
> requires a full-blown local database to be setup and run. Wow, I
> didn't know that so many users are professional database admins
> and know what to do. No KDE without MySQL.
>
> For now, the KDE 4.2 stuff can be ignored:
>
>  yum update -x akonadi -x 'kde*' -x 'PyKDE*' -x ksysguardd -x oxygen-icon-theme
>
> Of couse, KDE updates cannot be ignored forever ...
>
> Is this MySQL dependency by intention? Couldn't find anything
> helpful on this or on the devel mailing list, although this is
> a big issue, IMHO.
>  

FWIW, I did notice a screen pop up during the most recent update...but

it was hidden behind a terminal window.  I was going to go back and try
to figure out was it was all about....but subsequently forgot about it.
Your post did enlighten me as to what happened as I now recall seeing
"akonadi" at some point.

But, I have been using the latest version of KDE for the past several
days...and I haven't been bothered or presented with the need to know
anything about MySQL.  I only now notice there is an instance of MySQL
running not taking up much resources.  I'm not sure it would have come
to my attention if you hadn't written your post.

Took a quick look at http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ and on the surface
seems like a reasonable direction/idea.  So, not quite sure as to why
you may consider this to be a big issue.


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[Jake Peavy]

On 2/14/09, Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko@...> wrote:

Andreas M. Kirchwitz wrote:
>
>
> most people with automatic updates might not have noticed, but if
> you look closer, the recent bunch of updates, including KDE 4.2,
> installs the MySQL server on the machine (and some other database
> related stuff which MySQL depends on).


Took a quick look at http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ and on the surface
seems like a reasonable direction/idea.  So, not quite sure as to why
you may consider this to be a big issue.

Linux bloat continues unabated.

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[Craig White-6]

On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 20:37 -0700, Jake Peavy wrote:

>  
>
> On 2/14/09, Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko@...> wrote:
>         Andreas M. Kirchwitz wrote:
>         >
>         >
>         > most people with automatic updates might not have noticed,
>         but if
>         > you look closer, the recent bunch of updates, including KDE
>         4.2,
>         > installs the MySQL server on the machine (and some other
>         database
>         > related stuff which MySQL depends on).
>        
>        
>         Took a quick look at http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ and on the
>         surface
>         seems like a reasonable direction/idea.  So, not quite sure as
>         to why
>         you may consider this to be a big issue.
>        
>
> Linux bloat continues unabated.

----
I think...

- that you would have to have kde-pim package installed to bloat here

- agreed on bloat but considering that my Acer Aspire One is 10 Gb
Windows installation and 5 Gb Fedora 10 and I have a lot more 'stuff'
installed in Fedora.

Just sayin'

Craig

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[Craig White-6]

On Sun, 2009-02-15 at 11:31 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:

> Andreas M. Kirchwitz wrote:
> >
> >
> > most people with automatic updates might not have noticed, but if
> > you look closer, the recent bunch of updates, including KDE 4.2,
> > installs the MySQL server on the machine (and some other database
> > related stuff which MySQL depends on).
> >
> > It's the "akonadi" package that requires a MySQL server to run.
> > Google shows that there's been a long discussion about this issue
> > some months ago. Unfortunately, akonadi cannot be uninstalled,
> > because that will break a lot of KDE dependencies.
> >
> > Is there an easy way around it? An end-user desktop environment
> > requires a full-blown local database to be setup and run. Wow, I
> > didn't know that so many users are professional database admins
> > and know what to do. No KDE without MySQL.
> >
> > For now, the KDE 4.2 stuff can be ignored:
> >
> >  yum update -x akonadi -x 'kde*' -x 'PyKDE*' -x ksysguardd -x oxygen-icon-theme
> >
> > Of couse, KDE updates cannot be ignored forever ...
> >
> > Is this MySQL dependency by intention? Couldn't find anything
> > helpful on this or on the devel mailing list, although this is
> > a big issue, IMHO.
> >  
> FWIW, I did notice a screen pop up during the most recent update...but
> it was hidden behind a terminal window.  I was going to go back and try
> to figure out was it was all about....but subsequently forgot about it.
> Your post did enlighten me as to what happened as I now recall seeing
> "akonadi" at some point.
>
> But, I have been using the latest version of KDE for the past several
> days...and I haven't been bothered or presented with the need to know
> anything about MySQL.  I only now notice there is an instance of MySQL
> running not taking up much resources.  I'm not sure it would have come
> to my attention if you hadn't written your post.
>
> Took a quick look at http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ and on the surface
> seems like a reasonable direction/idea.  So, not quite sure as to why
> you may consider this to be a big issue.

----
thanks for the info - I was sort of wondering about this myself but my
attention has been on trying to get the little damn 1024x600 screen to a
larger virtual display.

It does seem curious to me that they would have chosen MySQL instead of
SQLite

Craig

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[Ed Greshko]

Jake Peavy wrote:

>
>
> On 2/14/09, *Ed Greshko* <Ed.Greshko@...
> <mailto:Ed.Greshko@...>> wrote:
>
>     Andreas M. Kirchwitz wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     > most people with automatic updates might not have noticed, but if
>     > you look closer, the recent bunch of updates, including KDE 4.2,
>     > installs the MySQL server on the machine (and some other database
>     > related stuff which MySQL depends on).
>
>
>     Took a quick look at http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ and on the surface
>     seems like a reasonable direction/idea.  So, not quite sure as to why
>     you may consider this to be a big issue.
>
>
> Linux bloat continues unabated.
>

Different people have different definitions for "bloat".  If it is disk

space usage...it seems it adds about 21MB in disk usage.  Is that the
big issue?




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[Anne Wilson-4]

On Sunday 15 February 2009 04:14:05 Craig White wrote:

> On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 20:37 -0700, Jake Peavy wrote:
> > On 2/14/09, Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko@...> wrote:
> >
> >         Andreas M. Kirchwitz wrote:
> >         > most people with automatic updates might not have noticed,
> >
> >         but if
> >
> >         > you look closer, the recent bunch of updates, including KDE
> >
> >         4.2,
> >
> >         > installs the MySQL server on the machine (and some other
> >
> >         database
> >
> >         > related stuff which MySQL depends on).
> >
> >         Took a quick look at http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ and on the
> >         surface
> >         seems like a reasonable direction/idea.  So, not quite sure as
> >         to why
> >         you may consider this to be a big issue.
> >
> >
> > Linux bloat continues unabated.
>
> ----
> I think...
>
> - that you would have to have kde-pim package installed to bloat here
>
> - agreed on bloat but considering that my Acer Aspire One is 10 Gb
> Windows installation and 5 Gb Fedora 10 and I have a lot more 'stuff'
> installed in Fedora.
>

Agreed.  My other laptop has to dual-boot with XP.  However, I only require it

for one application.  I partitioned it with 8GB for XP system (no data) and to
my surprise the most basic install filled it to danger point.  I could
certainly run a modern linux distro, with more applications, in the same
space.

More importantly, in linux, if you think something does install too much, you
do have a choice.

Anne


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[Craig White-6]

On Sun, 2009-02-15 at 11:15 +0000, Anne Wilson wrote:
> On Sunday 15 February 2009 04:14:05 Craig White wrote:
> > On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 20:37 -0700, Jake Peavy wrote:

> > > Linux bloat continues unabated.
> >
> > ----
> > I think...
> >
> > - that you would have to have kde-pim package installed to bloat here
> >
> > - agreed on bloat but considering that my Acer Aspire One is 10 Gb
> > Windows installation and 5 Gb Fedora 10 and I have a lot more 'stuff'
> > installed in Fedora.
> >
> Agreed.  My other laptop has to dual-boot with XP.  However, I only require it
> for one application.  I partitioned it with 8GB for XP system (no data) and to
> my surprise the most basic install filled it to danger point.  I could
> certainly run a modern linux distro, with more applications, in the same
> space.
>
> More importantly, in linux, if you think something does install too much, you
> do have a choice.

----
9.7 Gb on Windows XP...
- WinXP SP3
- AVG Anti-virus (free version)
- OpenOffice 3.0
- iTunes
- FileSync (to sync my iTunes music directory from server to my 'music
drive' (fat volume not included in the 10Gb and accessible from Linux
too)
- Firefox
- Thunderbird
- Acrobat Reader
- Removed trial version of MS Office, MacAfee Internet Security

I think that is sort of a Windows minimum myself.

3.9 Gb on Fedora 10
- GNOME & KDE full packages
- Big installation of games, OpenOffice, Scribus, Webdev, Acrobat
Reader, FlashPlayer, Rhythmbox, mplayer, gxine

I appreciate the notion of bloat but on a 'desktop' system, I am less
concerned with bloat then I am on a 'server' system.

Craig

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Craig White wrote:
> It does seem curious to me that they would have chosen MySQL instead of
> SQLite

http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/PIM/Akonadi#Why_not_use_sqlite.3F

        Kevin Kofler

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Andreas M. Kirchwitz wrote:
> Is there an easy way around it? An end-user desktop environment
> requires a full-blown local database to be setup and run. Wow, I
> didn't know that so many users are professional database admins
> and know what to do. No KDE without MySQL.

You don't have to configure anything, Akonadi starts a per-user instance of
mysqld automatically. But it needs the mysql-server package for that
purpose.

http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/PIM/Akonadi#Do_I_need_a_running_MySQL_server.3F

> Is this MySQL dependency by intention? Couldn't find anything
> helpful on this or on the devel mailing list, although this is
> a big issue, IMHO.

Yes, this is by (upstream's) intention, we have no other choice.

FYI, Akonadi can also be configured to use a central MySQL server somewhere,
but this is not the default configuration and as you say we definitely
cannot expect our users to be database admins, so we have to make the
default configuration work, thus the hard dependency on mysql-server.
(Unfortunately, RPM still does not support soft dependencies.)

        Kevin Kofler

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[Craig White-6]

On Sun, 2009-02-15 at 22:11 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:

> Andreas M. Kirchwitz wrote:
> > Is there an easy way around it? An end-user desktop environment
> > requires a full-blown local database to be setup and run. Wow, I
> > didn't know that so many users are professional database admins
> > and know what to do. No KDE without MySQL.
>
> You don't have to configure anything, Akonadi starts a per-user instance of
> mysqld automatically. But it needs the mysql-server package for that
> purpose.
>
> http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/PIM/Akonadi#Do_I_need_a_running_MySQL_server.3F
>
> > Is this MySQL dependency by intention? Couldn't find anything
> > helpful on this or on the devel mailing list, although this is
> > a big issue, IMHO.
>
> Yes, this is by (upstream's) intention, we have no other choice.
>
> FYI, Akonadi can also be configured to use a central MySQL server somewhere,
> but this is not the default configuration and as you say we definitely
> cannot expect our users to be database admins, so we have to make the
> default configuration work, thus the hard dependency on mysql-server.
> (Unfortunately, RPM still does not support soft dependencies.)

----
and apparently a real problem for people like me who use NFS for home
directories

Craig

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Craig White wrote:

> and apparently a real problem for people like me who use NFS for home
> directories

"apparently" how?  Are there verifiable/concrete problems here?

-- Rex



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[Craig White-6]

On Sun, 2009-02-15 at 17:15 -0600, Rex Dieter wrote:
> Craig White wrote:
>
> > and apparently a real problem for people like me who use NFS for home
> > directories
>
> "apparently" how?  Are there verifiable/concrete problems here?
----
well I haven't gotten there yet but 'they' do read...

http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/PIM/Akonadi#Deployment_issues

Craig


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Craig White wrote:
> well I haven't gotten there yet but 'they' do read...
>
> http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/PIM/Akonadi#Deployment_issues

Well, none of the issues with NFS are unsurmountable:

> Multiple access: Should multiple Akonadi instances' mysqlds access a
> single set of data files the mysql will likely corrupt the data. This can
> happen in any NFS+YP installation where users can log onto any machine and
> access shared homes. MySQL relies on filesystem locking to prevent
> multiple access. MySQL multiple instance docu.

Should not be a problem if each user only runs Akonadi on one of the
machines sharing that volume at a time. Different users have different
Akonadi databases. And if your NFS installation has working locking, you
won't corrupt your data if you try, just fail to access it. (That said, NFS
locking tends to be broken one way or the other, so I'd suggest being
careful and not attempting to run Akonadi concurrently on multiple machines
for any given user.)

> InnoDB tables should not be used on NFS.

This is pretty much the same as the above, only this time when the locking
is working as designed. From the given link:
> It is not a good idea to configure InnoDB to use datafiles or logfiles on
> NFS volumes. Otherwise, the files might be locked by other processes and
> become unavailable for use by MySQL.
Again, that shouldn't happen if you only run Akonadi on one of the machines
sharing that volume at a time, and you won't be affected by other users'
locks because the database is per user.

Pretty much the same kinds of corruption or lock contention would happen if
Akonadi was using flat files. Having processes on 2 computers manage the
same NFS-shared file is always a bad idea, with or without MySQL.

> NFS speed: MySQL documentation recommends against locating its data files
> on network shares.

That's a valid concern, but I don't think it will be that big a problem.

        Kevin Kofler

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[Andreas M. Kirchwitz-3]

Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko@...> wrote:

 > Took a quick look at http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ and on the surface
 > seems like a reasonable direction/idea.  So, not quite sure as to why
 > you may consider this to be a big issue.
 
If every applications starts its own copy of mysql, then this is
indeed a big issue because that doesn't scale well. There are,
for example, GDBM, Berkeley DB and SQLite. I've read the reason
why akonadi people don't use SQLite, but that's an old dispute
in akonadi development, so it doesn't convince me and sounds more
like some old prejudice.

SQLite is used by a lot of applications for fast and concurrent
access to data. What makes akonadi so different to all these
applications? And if SQLite has problems, why not try to fix it?
The SQLite team is very actively developing their software.

One single MySQL instance as central storage for all applications
that cannot use SQLite & Co. for some reason -- well, that might
be the future of Unix desktop environments. Sure, why not. But a
local copy of MySQL for every single application that needs to
store some bits of data -- that's no good design.

However, I now understand that the decision has been made for KDE 4.2
by intention, and it's not a Fedora issue, but all Unix distributions
that ship KDE 4.2 will require a MySQL server installation. The only
way to avoid this is to remove all KDE stuff. Well, until somebody
of the GNOME folks comes up with the same idea ...

I should be happy that there's no dependency on Oracle, otherwise
I had to buy a more powerful workstation. ;-)

        Thanks for all the answers to my questions ... Andreas

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[Ed Greshko]

Andreas M. Kirchwitz wrote:

> Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko@...> wrote:
>
>  > Took a quick look at http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ and on the surface
>  > seems like a reasonable direction/idea.  So, not quite sure as to why
>  > you may consider this to be a big issue.
>  
> If every applications starts its own copy of mysql, then this is
> indeed a big issue because that doesn't scale well. There are,
> for example, GDBM, Berkeley DB and SQLite. I've read the reason
> why akonadi people don't use SQLite, but that's an old dispute
> in akonadi development, so it doesn't convince me and sounds more
> like some old prejudice.
>
> SQLite is used by a lot of applications for fast and concurrent
> access to data. What makes akonadi so different to all these
> applications? And if SQLite has problems, why not try to fix it?
> The SQLite team is very actively developing their software.
>
> One single MySQL instance as central storage for all applications
> that cannot use SQLite & Co. for some reason -- well, that might
> be the future of Unix desktop environments. Sure, why not. But a
> local copy of MySQL for every single application that needs to
> store some bits of data -- that's no good design.
>
> However, I now understand that the decision has been made for KDE 4.2
> by intention, and it's not a Fedora issue, but all Unix distributions
> that ship KDE 4.2 will require a MySQL server installation. The only
> way to avoid this is to remove all KDE stuff. Well, until somebody
> of the GNOME folks comes up with the same idea ...
>
> I should be happy that there's no dependency on Oracle, otherwise
> I had to buy a more powerful workstation. ;-)
>
> Thanks for all the answers to my questions ... Andreas
>
>  

When I have more time I will look at it...  However, I doubt that each

application will spawn a new instance of mysql since that would
certainly defeat the purpose of a centralized database.  Looking at what
little documentation I have...I am confident that it is one instance of
mysql per user.

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Andreas M. Kirchwitz wrote:

> Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko@...> wrote:
>
>  > Took a quick look at http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ and on the surface
>  > seems like a reasonable direction/idea.  So, not quite sure as to why
>  > you may consider this to be a big issue.
>  
> If every applications starts its own copy of mysql\

In this caes, it's one mysql instance for akonadi, which all akonadi-using
apps will share (per user, by default).

-- Rex

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2009/2/15 Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko@...>:
>
> Took a quick look at http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ and on the surface
> seems like a reasonable direction/idea.  So, not quite sure as to why
> you may consider this to be a big issue.

They could have used some lighter database engine, like sqlite.

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2009/2/16 Rex Dieter <rdieter@...>:

> Andreas M. Kirchwitz wrote:
>
>> Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko@...> wrote:
>>
>>  > Took a quick look at http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ and on the surface
>>  > seems like a reasonable direction/idea.  So, not quite sure as to why
>>  > you may consider this to be a big issue.
>>
>> If every applications starts its own copy of mysql\
>
> In this caes, it's one mysql instance for akonadi, which all akonadi-using
> apps will share (per user, by default).

I think he was talking about other apps (non-KDE ones). Say I start
emacs and it want's to store cache and configuration info in a mysql
database, or I want to use rythmbox (which is a GNOME app) and GNOME
start's it's own mysql instance.

IMHO, this is the beginning of the end of KDE

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[Arthur Pemberton]

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Martín Marqués
<martin.marques@...> wrote:

> 2009/2/16 Rex Dieter <rdieter@...>:
>> Andreas M. Kirchwitz wrote:
>>
>>> Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>  > Took a quick look at http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ and on the surface
>>>  > seems like a reasonable direction/idea.  So, not quite sure as to why
>>>  > you may consider this to be a big issue.
>>>
>>> If every applications starts its own copy of mysql\
>>
>> In this caes, it's one mysql instance for akonadi, which all akonadi-using
>> apps will share (per user, by default).
>
> I think he was talking about other apps (non-KDE ones). Say I start
> emacs and it want's to store cache and configuration info in a mysql
> database, or I want to use rythmbox (which is a GNOME app) and GNOME
> start's it's own mysql instance.
>
> IMHO, this is the beginning of the end of KDE

Because some portions of it require a free database engine? Seriously?

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