KDE inside graphics? (Re: Linux Journal article on KDE on Windows)

[Bernhard Reiter]

Am Dienstag, 3. November 2009 17:21:10 schrieb Bernhard Reiter:

> Am Dienstag, 3. November 2009 13:16:35 schrieb Stuart Jarvis:
> > > > Has KDE on Windows brought new users or developers or users to KDE?
> > > > (I'd be particularly interested to hear from anyone who _started_
> > > > with KDE on Windows as a user or developer. The FAQ mentions an
> > > > Amarok developer who apparently got involved through an interest in
> > > > Amarok on Windows)
> > >
> > > (Is using a product like Kleopatra, where a big bunch of KDE libraries
> > >  coming with it, considered for the question? If so: Yes, lots of new
> > > users with Gpg4win2. :) )
> >
> > Yes, I guess a follow up question is do they only see Kleopatra as a
> > standalone application (and use that, which is nice) or do they
> > understadnnd it is related to KDE and then try and find out more about
> > that and see what else KDE can offer? Not an easy one to answer.
>
> With current Gpg4win, KDE is not as visible as it should. People might not
> recognise Kleopatra as a KDE application, it is the whole package they use,
> e.g. directly from within Outlook (if they are using GpgOL).

I consider doing a "KDE inside" thing to make this more visible at several
places, because the general "KDE" help tab is not really well integrated and
understood. The logo or text could be displayed in more places.
Maybe this is a good idea in general as KDE technology (and community efforts)
will get into more and more slick products in the future.

Bernhard

--
Managing Director - Owner: www.intevation.net       (Free Software Company)
Germany Coordinator: fsfeurope.org. Coordinator: www.Kolab-Konsortium.com.
Intevation GmbH, Osnabrück, DE; Amtsgericht Osnabrück, HRB 18998
Geschäftsführer Frank Koormann, Bernhard Reiter, Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner


 
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On Wednesday 04 November 2009 10:06:23 Bernhard Reiter wrote:

>   Am Dienstag, 3. November 2009 17:21:10 schrieb Bernhard Reiter:
> > Am Dienstag, 3. November 2009 13:16:35 schrieb Stuart Jarvis:
> > > > > Has KDE on Windows brought new users or developers or users to KDE?
> > > > > (I'd be particularly interested to hear from anyone who started
> > > > > with KDE on Windows as a user or developer. The FAQ mentions an
> > > > > Amarok developer who apparently got involved through an interest in
> > > > > Amarok on Windows)
> > > >
> > > > (Is using a product like Kleopatra, where a big bunch of KDE
> > > > libraries coming with it, considered for the question? If so: Yes,
> > > > lots of new users with Gpg4win2. :) )
> > >
> > > Yes, I guess a follow up question is do they only see Kleopatra as a
> > > standalone application (and use that, which is nice) or do they
> > > understadnnd it is related to KDE and then try and find out more about
> > > that and see what else KDE can offer? Not an easy one to answer.
> >
> > With current Gpg4win, KDE is not as visible as it should. People might
> > not recognise Kleopatra as a KDE application, it is the whole package
> > they use, e.g. directly from within Outlook (if they are using GpgOL).
>
> I consider doing a "KDE inside" thing to make this more visible at several
> places, because the general "KDE" help tab is not really well integrated
>  and  understood. The logo or text could be displayed in more places.
> Maybe this is a good idea in general as KDE technology (and community
>  efforts)  will get into more and more slick products in the future.

It has one problem, KDE is a very fuzzy concept right now. So just "KDE inside" won't
work well. (Also might sound too much of a rip-off from Intel.)

The idea of making the connection to KDE visible is good though. For sub-brands, the
marketing team has gone into the direction of calling things "A KDE Project" (this is
more in line with recent re-branding efforts that separate  KDE applications,
workspace, platform and the community as different sub-brands. This process is
ongoing, though, but surely good to keep in mind when thinking of promoting (parts
of) KDE.
--
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9
 
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[Stuart Jarvis]

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 12:11:47 Sebastian Kügler wrote:

> On Wednesday 04 November 2009 10:06:23 Bernhard Reiter wrote:
> >   Am Dienstag, 3. November 2009 17:21:10 schrieb Bernhard Reiter:
> > > Am Dienstag, 3. November 2009 13:16:35 schrieb Stuart Jarvis:
> > > > > > Has KDE on Windows brought new users or developers or users to
> > > > > > KDE? (I'd be particularly interested to hear from anyone who
> > > > > > started with KDE on Windows as a user or developer. The FAQ
> > > > > > mentions an Amarok developer who apparently got involved through
> > > > > > an interest in Amarok on Windows)
> > > > >
> > > > > (Is using a product like Kleopatra, where a big bunch of KDE
> > > > > libraries coming with it, considered for the question? If so: Yes,
> > > > > lots of new users with Gpg4win2. :) )
> > > >
> > > > Yes, I guess a follow up question is do they only see Kleopatra as a
> > > > standalone application (and use that, which is nice) or do they
> > > > understadnnd it is related to KDE and then try and find out more
> > > > about that and see what else KDE can offer? Not an easy one to
> > > > answer.
> > >
> > > With current Gpg4win, KDE is not as visible as it should. People might
> > > not recognise Kleopatra as a KDE application, it is the whole package
> > > they use, e.g. directly from within Outlook (if they are using GpgOL).
> >
> > I consider doing a "KDE inside" thing to make this more visible at
> > several places, because the general "KDE" help tab is not really well
> > integrated and  understood. The logo or text could be displayed in more
> > places. Maybe this is a good idea in general as KDE technology (and
> > community efforts)  will get into more and more slick products in the
> > future.
>
> It has one problem, KDE is a very fuzzy concept right now. So just "KDE
>  inside" won't work well. (Also might sound too much of a rip-off from
>  Intel.)
>

Sebas you beat me to it :-) I agree "KDE inside" is probably not quite right
for reasons you say.

> The idea of making the connection to KDE visible is good though. For
>  sub-brands, the marketing team has gone into the direction of calling
>  things "A KDE Project" (this is more in line with recent re-branding
>  efforts that separate  KDE applications, workspace, platform and the
>  community as different sub-brands. This process is ongoing, though, but
>  surely good to keep in mind when thinking of promoting (parts of) KDE.
>
We're aiming to discuss these general branding issues at the promo sprint next
week. Perhaps we can include thinking about a "KDE inside" idea too. Are there
other applications that might benefit from something similar? Some kind of
graphics might also be useful for websites for applications that are built on
KDE libraries but not part of KDE 4 or extragear and not hosted on *.kde.org

Stu
 
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[Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen-2]

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 14:57:43 Stuart Jarvis wrote:

> On Wednesday 04 November 2009 12:11:47 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > On Wednesday 04 November 2009 10:06:23 Bernhard Reiter wrote:
> > >   Am Dienstag, 3. November 2009 17:21:10 schrieb Bernhard Reiter:
> > > > Am Dienstag, 3. November 2009 13:16:35 schrieb Stuart Jarvis:
> > > > > > > Has KDE on Windows brought new users or developers or users to
> > > > > > > KDE? (I'd be particularly interested to hear from anyone who
> > > > > > > started with KDE on Windows as a user or developer. The FAQ
> > > > > > > mentions an Amarok developer who apparently got involved
> > > > > > > through an interest in Amarok on Windows)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (Is using a product like Kleopatra, where a big bunch of KDE
> > > > > > libraries coming with it, considered for the question? If so:
> > > > > > Yes, lots of new users with Gpg4win2. :) )
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, I guess a follow up question is do they only see Kleopatra as
> > > > > a standalone application (and use that, which is nice) or do they
> > > > > understadnnd it is related to KDE and then try and find out more
> > > > > about that and see what else KDE can offer? Not an easy one to
> > > > > answer.
> > > >
> > > > With current Gpg4win, KDE is not as visible as it should. People
> > > > might not recognise Kleopatra as a KDE application, it is the whole
> > > > package they use, e.g. directly from within Outlook (if they are
> > > > using GpgOL).
> > >
> > > I consider doing a "KDE inside" thing to make this more visible at
> > > several places, because the general "KDE" help tab is not really well
> > > integrated and  understood. The logo or text could be displayed in more
> > > places. Maybe this is a good idea in general as KDE technology (and
> > > community efforts)  will get into more and more slick products in the
> > > future.
> >
> > It has one problem, KDE is a very fuzzy concept right now. So just "KDE
> >  inside" won't work well. (Also might sound too much of a rip-off from
> >  Intel.)
>
> Sebas you beat me to it :-) I agree "KDE inside" is probably not quite
>  right for reasons you say.

  Well, arguably that might make it work really well for e.g. a t-shirt slogan
type thing.. Something akin to that advert they did for IBM a while back with
the little boy that was Linux... T-shirts that say something like "I'm KDE
too" ;)

--
..Dan // Leinir..
http://leinir.dk/

                          Co-
                            existence
                          or no
                            existence

                          - Piet Hein
 
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[Bernhard Reiter]

Am Mittwoch, 4. November 2009 14:57:43 schrieb Stuart Jarvis:
> > It has one problem, KDE is a very fuzzy concept right now. So just "KDE
> >  inside" won't work well. (Also might sound too much of a rip-off from
> >  Intel.)
>
> Sebas you beat me to it :-) I agree "KDE inside" is probably not quite
> right for reasons you say.

I thought about it a bit and I do not think that "X inside" can be protected
as word trademark and it is something that expresses the idea quite clearly.
But of course I am open for everything reasonable here. Just a KDE related
graphics could be a start or anything along the lines "KDE
buildingblock", "KDE piece" "Build with KDE".

> > The idea of making the connection to KDE visible is good though. For
> >  sub-brands, the marketing team has gone into the direction of calling
> >  things "A KDE Project"

I strongly suggest to not use "project" to describe a long term Free Software
initiative because it clashes with the stricter meaning of project in the
business realm, that is having resources, goals and an end.
I can explain this in more detail, if you like.

> >  (this is more in line with recent re-branding
> >  efforts that separate  KDE applications, workspace, platform and the
> >  community as different sub-brands. This process is ongoing, though, but
> >  surely good to keep in mind when thinking of promoting (parts of) KDE.

> We're aiming to discuss these general branding issues at the promo sprint
> next week. Perhaps we can include thinking about a "KDE inside" idea too.
> Are there other applications that might benefit from something similar?
> Some kind of graphics might also be useful for websites for applications
> that are built on KDE libraries but not part of KDE 4 or extragear and not
> hosted on *.kde.org

Doing a stand-a-lone slick-ass stand-a-lone installer for Okular on windows
and link it from http://pdfreaders.org/ could be a major hit for "build with
KDE side". ;)

Bernhard
--
Managing Director - Owner: www.intevation.net       (Free Software Company)
Germany Coordinator: fsfeurope.org. Coordinator: www.Kolab-Konsortium.com.
Intevation GmbH, Osnabrück, DE; Amtsgericht Osnabrück, HRB 18998
Geschäftsführer Frank Koormann, Bernhard Reiter, Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner


 
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[Lydia Pintscher-2]

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 17:25, Bernhard Reiter <bernhard@...> wrote:
> I thought about it a bit and I do not think that "X inside" can be protected
> as word trademark and it is something that expresses the idea quite clearly.
> But of course I am open for everything reasonable here. Just a KDE related
> graphics could be a start or anything along the lines "KDE
> buildingblock", "KDE piece" "Build with KDE".

It's is less about "X inside" being trademarkable or not and more
about if the first thing people think when they read it: Oh gosh what
a Intel rip-off".  (Which would be very very bad.)  ;-)


Cheers
Lydia

--
Lydia Pintscher
Amarok community manager
kde.org - amarok.kde.org - kubuntu.org
claimid.com/nightrose
 
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On Wednesday 04 November 2009 17:25:49 Bernhard Reiter wrote:
>  Just a KDE related graphics could be a start or anything along the lines
>  "KDE
> buildingblock", "KDE piece" "Build with KDE".
>

"KDE Thing"

m.
 
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[Cornelius Schumacher]

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 17:25:49 Bernhard Reiter wrote:
>
> I thought about it a bit and I do not think that "X inside" can be
> protected as word trademark and it is something that expresses the idea
> quite clearly. But of course I am open for everything reasonable here. Just
> a KDE related graphics could be a start or anything along the lines "KDE
> buildingblock", "KDE piece" "Build with KDE".

"Done the KDE way", "It's KDE", "Passionated by KDE", "Powered by KDE
community", "Free Software by KDE", "KDE App", "Part of KDE"

> I strongly suggest to not use "project" to describe a long term Free
> Software initiative because it clashes with the stricter meaning of project
> in the business realm, that is having resources, goals and an end.
> I can explain this in more detail, if you like.

Yes, that's actually along the lines we discussed. Sebas, you should know
that ;-)

--
Cornelius Schumacher <schumacher@...>
 
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[Troy Unrau]

Branding KDE vs. KDE will be a topic at the marketing sprint :)

Personally, I think we should come up with a new name somehow for the
KDE community and related organizations, or alternatively, for the KDE
4 project, such that it become unambiguous when writing/promoting.
Topic of much bikeshedding though, if proposed... maybe we can make
proposals and use the e.V.'s voting mechanisms to solidify it.

Cheers

2009/11/4 Cornelius Schumacher <schumacher@...>:

> On Wednesday 04 November 2009 17:25:49 Bernhard Reiter wrote:
>>
>> I thought about it a bit and I do not think that "X inside" can be
>> protected as word trademark and it is something that expresses the idea
>> quite clearly. But of course I am open for everything reasonable here. Just
>> a KDE related graphics could be a start or anything along the lines "KDE
>> buildingblock", "KDE piece" "Build with KDE".
>
> "Done the KDE way", "It's KDE", "Passionated by KDE", "Powered by KDE
> community", "Free Software by KDE", "KDE App", "Part of KDE"
>
>> I strongly suggest to not use "project" to describe a long term Free
>> Software initiative because it clashes with the stricter meaning of project
>> in the business realm, that is having resources, goals and an end.
>> I can explain this in more detail, if you like.
>
> Yes, that's actually along the lines we discussed. Sebas, you should know
> that ;-)
>
> --
> Cornelius Schumacher <schumacher@...>
>
> _______________________________________________
> This message is from the kde-promo mailing list.
>
> Visit https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-promo to unsubscribe, set digest on or temporarily stop your subscription.
>

--
Troy Unrau, B.Sc.G.Sc.(Hons.)
Planetary Sciences Student - University of Western Ontario
 
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[Stuart Jarvis]

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 23:12:43 Troy Unrau wrote:
> Branding KDE vs. KDE will be a topic at the marketing sprint :)
>
Yep

> Personally, I think we should come up with a new name somehow for the
> KDE community and related organizations, or alternatively, for the KDE
> 4 project, such that it become unambiguous when writing/promoting.
> Topic of much bikeshedding though, if proposed... maybe we can make
> proposals and use the e.V.'s voting mechanisms to solidify it.
>
I'm inclined to agree, although obviously changing either name will mean more
work and take longer. However, a subtle distinction such as KDE (team) vs KDE
4 (software) is likely to be lost and anything that adds extra words such as
KDE (team) vs KDE Workspace (software - I know 'workspace' is a bad example)
is likely to be shortened by people to just KDE in both cases.

Given the big logo is a K it might be nice to work with that: K something for
the team, KDL (K desktop libraries or K development libraries) for the
libraries - then we have "built on KDL" or something for some apps and
separate the desktop environment from the stuff that might be useful for your
app you want to run anywhere. (I've just plucked "KDL" out as an example of
what I mean and am not attached to the name KDL).

Stu

> Cheers
>
> 2009/11/4 Cornelius Schumacher <schumacher@...>:
> > On Wednesday 04 November 2009 17:25:49 Bernhard Reiter wrote:
> >> I thought about it a bit and I do not think that "X inside" can be
> >> protected as word trademark and it is something that expresses the idea
> >> quite clearly. But of course I am open for everything reasonable here.
> >> Just a KDE related graphics could be a start or anything along the lines
> >> "KDE buildingblock", "KDE piece" "Build with KDE".
> >
> > "Done the KDE way", "It's KDE", "Passionated by KDE", "Powered by KDE
> > community", "Free Software by KDE", "KDE App", "Part of KDE"
> >
> >> I strongly suggest to not use "project" to describe a long term Free
> >> Software initiative because it clashes with the stricter meaning of
> >> project in the business realm, that is having resources, goals and an
> >> end. I can explain this in more detail, if you like.
> >
> > Yes, that's actually along the lines we discussed. Sebas, you should know
> > that ;-)
> >
> > --
> > Cornelius Schumacher <schumacher@...>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > This message is from the kde-promo mailing list.
> >
> > Visit https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-promo to unsubscribe, set
> > digest on or temporarily stop your subscription.
>

 
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On Thursday 05 November 2009 00:12:43 Troy Unrau wrote:
> Branding KDE vs. KDE will be a topic at the marketing sprint :)
>
> Personally, I think we should come up with a new name somehow for the
> KDE community and related organizations, or alternatively, for the KDE
> 4 project, such that it become unambiguous when writing/promoting.
> Topic of much bikeshedding though, if proposed... maybe we can make
> proposals and use the e.V.'s voting mechanisms to solidify it.

I think we could come up with a new name for the desktop offering. KDE 4 is close to
finished, in the sense of a complete desktop. I expect this point is reached with
4.5, from then on, it's really the next generation, it's clearly there for end users,
and we should probably reflect that. Besides that, we might want to lose the brand
KDE 4 since it's still seen as "the lemon" release.

What do you think about this idea?
--
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9
 
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On Wednesday 04 November 2009 23:54:25 Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
> On Wednesday 04 November 2009 17:25:49 Bernhard Reiter wrote:
> > I thought about it a bit and I do not think that "X inside" can be
> > protected as word trademark and it is something that expresses the idea
> > quite clearly. But of course I am open for everything reasonable here.
> > Just a KDE related graphics could be a start or anything along the lines
> > "KDE buildingblock", "KDE piece" "Build with KDE".
>
> "Done the KDE way", "It's KDE", "Passionated by KDE", "Powered by KDE
> community", "Free Software by KDE", "KDE App", "Part of KDE"

I really like the "Free Software by KDE" thing. It makes very clear what it is (Free
Software, that's an important part of our identity) and that KDE is a group of people
("by KDE"). I think we should use this to mark sub-brands of KDE, much like Bernhard
describes.

> > I strongly suggest to not use "project" to describe a long term Free
> > Software initiative because it clashes with the stricter meaning of
> > project in the business realm, that is having resources, goals and an
> > end. I can explain this in more detail, if you like.
>
> Yes, that's actually along the lines we discussed. Sebas, you should know
> that ;-)

Yes, indeed, Daddy. ;) You (and Bernhard) are completely right. In fact, I remember
Mirko stating the same during Akademy 2005 at the constitutional MWG meeting already.
(And now he's my manager, smart guy.)
--
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9
 
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[Luca Beltrame-2]

In data giovedì 05 novembre 2009 11:52:39, Sebastian Kügler ha scritto:

>  clearly there for end users, and we should probably reflect that. Besides
>  that, we might want to lose the brand KDE 4 since it's still seen as "the
>  lemon" release.

I agree with this. Despite the (extremely evident) advances since 4.0, when
you mention KDE 4 you still sometimes get "4.0 was a disaster etc etc etc" (I
saw a dent on identi.ca just today). So, probably changing the name to reflect
both the maturity and the evolution of KDE might be a good idea IMO.


 
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Hi,

Jeudi, le 5 novembre 2009, à 11:52, Sebastian Kügler a écrit:

> On Thursday 05 November 2009 00:12:43 Troy Unrau wrote:
> > Branding KDE vs. KDE will be a topic at the marketing sprint :)
> >
> > Personally, I think we should come up with a new name somehow for the
> > KDE community and related organizations, or alternatively, for the KDE
> > 4 project, such that it become unambiguous when writing/promoting.
> > Topic of much bikeshedding though, if proposed... maybe we can make
> > proposals and use the e.V.'s voting mechanisms to solidify it.
>
> I think we could come up with a new name for the desktop offering. KDE 4 is
> close to finished, in the sense of a complete desktop. I expect this point
> is reached with 4.5, from then on, it's really the next generation, it's
> clearly there for end users, and we should probably reflect that. Besides
> that, we might want to lose the brand KDE 4 since it's still seen as "the
> lemon" release.
>
> What do you think about this idea?

Definitily we should identify our products and then give them nice,
stand-alone identifier names.

This should not be limited to the "desktop", but be done for all products, so
KDE can no longer be correctly used for anything related to the products
(like "KDE 4.4", "next KDE release" or "KDE libs").

And I don't think we should treat them too much as "sub"-brands. Otherwise
people might still make strong mental bindings between them. Someone wanting
to run KDevelop on Haiku should no second need to think of our "desktop"
product. Like a farmer buying a Unimog from Daimler does not have to think he
also needs a Mercedes. Or such ;)

Cheers
Friedrich
--
Okteta - KDE 4 Hex Editor - http://utils.kde.org/projects/okteta
 
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[Frank Karlitschek]

On 05.11.2009, at 11:52, Sebastian Kügler wrote:

> On Thursday 05 November 2009 00:12:43 Troy Unrau wrote:
>> Branding KDE vs. KDE will be a topic at the marketing sprint :)
>>
>> Personally, I think we should come up with a new name somehow for the
>> KDE community and related organizations, or alternatively, for the  
>> KDE
>> 4 project, such that it become unambiguous when writing/promoting.
>> Topic of much bikeshedding though, if proposed... maybe we can make
>> proposals and use the e.V.'s voting mechanisms to solidify it.
>
> I think we could come up with a new name for the desktop offering.  
> KDE 4 is close to
> finished, in the sense of a complete desktop. I expect this point is  
> reached with
> 4.5, from then on, it's really the next generation, it's clearly  
> there for end users,
> and we should probably reflect that. Besides that, we might want to  
> lose the brand
> KDE 4 since it's still seen as "the lemon" release.
>
> What do you think about this idea?

I like the idea a lot.


Frank


--
Frank Karlitschek
karlitschek@...




 
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[Jos Poortvliet-4]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Frank Karlitschek <karlitschek@...> wrote:

>
> On 05.11.2009, at 11:52, Sebastian Kügler wrote:
>
>> On Thursday 05 November 2009 00:12:43 Troy Unrau wrote:
>>> Branding KDE vs. KDE will be a topic at the marketing sprint :)
>>>
>>> Personally, I think we should come up with a new name somehow for the
>>> KDE community and related organizations, or alternatively, for the
>>> KDE
>>> 4 project, such that it become unambiguous when writing/promoting.
>>> Topic of much bikeshedding though, if proposed... maybe we can make
>>> proposals and use the e.V.'s voting mechanisms to solidify it.
>>
>> I think we could come up with a new name for the desktop offering.
>> KDE 4 is close to
>> finished, in the sense of a complete desktop. I expect this point is
>> reached with
>> 4.5, from then on, it's really the next generation, it's clearly
>> there for end users,
>> and we should probably reflect that. Besides that, we might want to
>> lose the brand
>> KDE 4 since it's still seen as "the lemon" release.
>>
>> What do you think about this idea?
>
>
> I like the idea a lot.

This has been discussed in the past quite a few times, never to be
concluded. I never was too much in favor of it but with the recent
developments my mind has changed, provided we find a good name (which
was the major stumble last time).

Let's discuss this at the marketing meeting in person, online just
leads to bikeshedding of obviously blue bikesheds.

> Frank
>
>
> --
> Frank Karlitschek
> karlitschek@...
>
>
>
>
>
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[Stuart Jarvis]

On Thursday 05 November 2009 10:52:39 Sebastian Kügler wrote:

> On Thursday 05 November 2009 00:12:43 Troy Unrau wrote:
> > Branding KDE vs. KDE will be a topic at the marketing sprint :)
> >
> > Personally, I think we should come up with a new name somehow for the
> > KDE community and related organizations, or alternatively, for the KDE
> > 4 project, such that it become unambiguous when writing/promoting.
> > Topic of much bikeshedding though, if proposed... maybe we can make
> > proposals and use the e.V.'s voting mechanisms to solidify it.
>
> I think we could come up with a new name for the desktop offering. KDE 4 is
>  close to finished, in the sense of a complete desktop. I expect this point
>  is reached with 4.5, from then on, it's really the next generation, it's
>  clearly there for end users, and we should probably reflect that. Besides
>  that, we might want to lose the brand KDE 4 since it's still seen as "the
>  lemon" release.
>
> What do you think about this idea?
>

The difficulty is that if we keep KDE branding for the team, people are going to
remember that it means - or did mean - K Desktop Environment and I think that
might lead to confusion. The question is, for most people, does KDE mean the
community or the main software product? I suspect it's the latter and so if we
rename the main software product we're taking on the bigger challenge. I do
like a challenge though :-)

Re ditching KDE 4 - Perhaps. Would we call it [KDE software product name] 1?
How would we explain such a big name difference for something that isn't _that_
different to KDE 4.3 (other than being generally everywhere improved again).

Stu
 
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[Stuart Jarvis]

On Thursday 05 November 2009 12:04:57 Jos Poortvliet wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Frank Karlitschek <karlitschek@...>
wrote:

> > On 05.11.2009, at 11:52, Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> >> On Thursday 05 November 2009 00:12:43 Troy Unrau wrote:
> >>> Branding KDE vs. KDE will be a topic at the marketing sprint :)
> >>>
> >>> Personally, I think we should come up with a new name somehow for the
> >>> KDE community and related organizations, or alternatively, for the
> >>> KDE
> >>> 4 project, such that it become unambiguous when writing/promoting.
> >>> Topic of much bikeshedding though, if proposed... maybe we can make
> >>> proposals and use the e.V.'s voting mechanisms to solidify it.
> >>
> >> I think we could come up with a new name for the desktop offering.
> >> KDE 4 is close to
> >> finished, in the sense of a complete desktop. I expect this point is
> >> reached with
> >> 4.5, from then on, it's really the next generation, it's clearly
> >> there for end users,
> >> and we should probably reflect that. Besides that, we might want to
> >> lose the brand
> >> KDE 4 since it's still seen as "the lemon" release.
> >>
> >> What do you think about this idea?
> >
> > I like the idea a lot.
>
> This has been discussed in the past quite a few times, never to be
> concluded. I never was too much in favor of it but with the recent
> developments my mind has changed, provided we find a good name (which
> was the major stumble last time).
>
> Let's discuss this at the marketing meeting in person, online just
> leads to bikeshedding of obviously blue bikesheds.
>

Just saw this after I suggested that in fact it should be green :-)

I agree we can just go around in circles, so yeah, lets leave it for the
meeting to discuss which approach to take and potential names.

One thing - did anyone ever make a list of what things we need identities for
(something we can discuss via email and it might be useful to have before the
meeting to focus discussion). I make it:

- The KDE team - umbrella phrase for the KDE in "KDE is proud to announce the
release of..."

- The (for want of a better word) desktop environment - what we mean at
present by KDE 4.3.3

- The KDE libraries (for stuff like "built with KDE" or "KDE inside" or
whatever or "why not build your app on KDE rather than just Qt and you'll get
all this extra cool stuff free")

- *Maybe* also a term for apps that are made by "KDE people" but released
separately from the main desktop - I'm thinking of things such as Amarok and
KOffice here - both very much parts of KDE but independent also to some extent.

Anything else?

Stu
 
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On Thursday 05 November 2009 13:04:57 Jos Poortvliet wrote:
> Let's discuss this at the marketing meeting in person, online just
> leads to bikeshedding of obviously blue bikesheds.

We can not have any discussion at all, if you cut everything that might end up in a
longer conversation with "stop, or we are bikeshedding soon". How about we try and
keep a bit of discipline for a change?

Especially for the marketing meeting, if you're planning to discuss this you really,
really want input from others beforehand.

I'm getting a bit tired of this self-fulfilling prophecy that is the bikeshed, and
it's actually not the first time this week I am writing "even if you call it bikeshed
a hundred times, it's *still* an important thing, and we need conclude it at some
point". More and more often, this "bikeshed" non-argument sounds like Godwin's Law
2.0 to me. Just act sane and ignore less useful answers.

So much for meta-discussions. :-)
--
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9
 
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On Thursday 05 November 2009 13:22:31 Stuart Jarvis wrote:

> > This has been discussed in the past quite a few times, never to be
> > concluded. I never was too much in favor of it but with the recent
> > developments my mind has changed, provided we find a good name (which
> > was the major stumble last time).
> >
> > Let's discuss this at the marketing meeting in person, online just
> > leads to bikeshedding of obviously blue bikesheds.
> >
>
> Just saw this after I suggested that in fact it should be green :-)
>
> I agree we can just go around in circles, so yeah, lets leave it for the
> meeting to discuss which approach to take and potential names.

You'll run short on time during the meeting if you just push everthing in there...

> One thing - did anyone ever make a list of what things we need identities
>  for  (something we can discuss via email and it might be useful to have
>  before the meeting to focus discussion). I make it:
>
> - The KDE team - umbrella phrase for the KDE in "KDE is proud to announce
>  the  release of..."

I've actually been using "the KDE team" or "the KDE community" in announcements for a
while, to communicate that. Also, the About KDE blurb begins with "KDE is an
international technology team ...". Same idea, KDE becomes the "Umbrella Brand" here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrella_brand

> - The (for want of a better word) desktop environment - what we mean at
> present by KDE 4.3.3

Workspace(s), we might want to have different brands for the desktop shell, the
netbook shell, the media center shell and the mobile shell.

> - The KDE libraries (for stuff like "built with KDE" or "KDE inside" or
> whatever or "why not build your app on KDE rather than just Qt and you'll
>  get  all this extra cool stuff free")

I'd prefer the platform here, it's not only libraries, but also runtime, tools, Qt
and the like.

> - Maybe also a term for apps that are made by "KDE people" but released
> separately from the main desktop - I'm thinking of things such as Amarok
>  and  KOffice here - both very much parts of KDE but independent also to
>  some extent.

"Free Software by KDE"

A very important thing for a tangible problem we keep running into is that we want to
clearly separate workspaces from apps, that's the problem Friedrich talks about: you
don't need to run a KDE workspace to run KDE apps, and vice versa: many non-KDE
applications run inside a KDE workspace just fine. (Trivial for us, but the world
doesn't get that yet.)

> Anything else?

I think you summed it up quite completely. :)
--
sebas

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