KDE widgets for choosing and editing times

Hi there,

I'd like to get some usability input for two time input widgets I've
created. The code is currently located in playground:
http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playground/libs/ui/ktimewidgets and can be
compiled on its own. It needs current trunk (r1005870) to compile as it
relies on changes to libkdecore KLocale time reading/formatting.

There is a small example application that shows the widgets and allows you
to change their properties.


General
=======
Both widgets use the current locale time-format the use has set in his
systemsettings (Regional & Language) for time output. Input is possible
using this format as well, but additionally the widgets will always
recognize 24h hour input format (eg. 22:13:50) and military format without
separators (eg. 221350).


KTimeEdit
=========
This widget is a time-editor with spinbox controls and looks the same like
QTimeEdit (meant as a replacement). If the current time format contains
am/pm it can also show a separate combo-box for choosing am or pm. The
spinbox controls change the part of the time the cursor currently hovers.

Properties:
- time (can be set using a QTimeEdit and "set time" button in the example)
- separate am/pm - if set to true a separate combobox for am/pm is shown, if
set to false, am/pm is shown inline
- duration - if set to true the widget expects input of a duration (ie.
locale-defined format but in 24h format and without am/pm part)
- include seconds - controls wether the seconds part of the time is shown to
the user
- acceptable input (press the check button to see if the current input is an
acceptable time)

Keyboard controls:
- mimick the behaviour of QTimeEdit and change the part of the time at the
current cursor position
- Up/Down changes the current cursor position by +1/-1
- PgUp/PgDown changes the current cursor position by +10/-10


KTimeChooser
============
This widget presents a combo-box style editor for times. On opening the
combo-box the user is presented with a list of times to choose from (in 15
minute intervals). It is basically a rework of the widget visible in
KOrganizer's "New Event" window.

Properties:
- time (can be set using a QTimeEdit and "set time" button in the example)
- editable - if set to false the time chooser will only allow to choose a
time, but not to edit it
- include seconds - controls wether the seconds part of the time is shown to
the user
- acceptable input (press the check button to see if the current input is an
acceptable time)

Keyboard controls:
- mimick the behaviour of the timechooser in KOrganizer but could be adapted
to the way KTimeEdit handles it
- Up/Down changes minutes
- PgUp/PgDown changes hours


Thanks and kind regards,
Michael



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[Celeste Lyn Paul]

Hi Mike,

Any chance you can include some screenshots or a screencast?

~ Celeste

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Michael Leupold<lemma@...> wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> I'd like to get some usability input for two time input widgets I've
> created. The code is currently located in playground:
> http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playground/libs/ui/ktimewidgets and can be
> compiled on its own. It needs current trunk (r1005870) to compile as it
> relies on changes to libkdecore KLocale time reading/formatting.
>
> There is a small example application that shows the widgets and allows you
> to change their properties.
>
>
> General
> =======
> Both widgets use the current locale time-format the use has set in his
> systemsettings (Regional & Language) for time output. Input is possible
> using this format as well, but additionally the widgets will always
> recognize 24h hour input format (eg. 22:13:50) and military format without
> separators (eg. 221350).
>
>
> KTimeEdit
> =========
> This widget is a time-editor with spinbox controls and looks the same like
> QTimeEdit (meant as a replacement). If the current time format contains
> am/pm it can also show a separate combo-box for choosing am or pm. The
> spinbox controls change the part of the time the cursor currently hovers.
>
> Properties:
> - time (can be set using a QTimeEdit and "set time" button in the example)
> - separate am/pm - if set to true a separate combobox for am/pm is shown, if
> set to false, am/pm is shown inline
> - duration - if set to true the widget expects input of a duration (ie.
> locale-defined format but in 24h format and without am/pm part)
> - include seconds - controls wether the seconds part of the time is shown to
> the user
> - acceptable input (press the check button to see if the current input is an
> acceptable time)
>
> Keyboard controls:
> - mimick the behaviour of QTimeEdit and change the part of the time at the
> current cursor position
> - Up/Down changes the current cursor position by +1/-1
> - PgUp/PgDown changes the current cursor position by +10/-10
>
>
> KTimeChooser
> ============
> This widget presents a combo-box style editor for times. On opening the
> combo-box the user is presented with a list of times to choose from (in 15
> minute intervals). It is basically a rework of the widget visible in
> KOrganizer's "New Event" window.
>
> Properties:
> - time (can be set using a QTimeEdit and "set time" button in the example)
> - editable - if set to false the time chooser will only allow to choose a
> time, but not to edit it
> - include seconds - controls wether the seconds part of the time is shown to
> the user
> - acceptable input (press the check button to see if the current input is an
> acceptable time)
>
> Keyboard controls:
> - mimick the behaviour of the timechooser in KOrganizer but could be adapted
> to the way KTimeEdit handles it
> - Up/Down changes minutes
> - PgUp/PgDown changes hours
>
>
> Thanks and kind regards,
> Michael
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> kde-usability mailing list
> kde-usability@...
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-usability
>

--
Celeste Lyn Paul
KDE Usability Project
KDE e.V.
www.kde.org
_______________________________________________
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(don't worry, I'm on the list Celeste :-))

Celeste Lyn Paul wrote:
> Any chance you can include some screenshots or a screencast?

Screenshots won't be very useful I fear but I will attach one. Actually same
for a screencast - I guess it's more about an intuitive feel when using the
widgets (and I don't know if that would come across in a screencast).

Is it about the compiling? Is there any other way I could make those widgets
accessible to you?

Regards,
Michael

>> I'd like to get some usability input for two time input widgets I've
>> created. The code is currently located in playground:
>> http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playground/libs/ui/ktimewidgets and can be
>> compiled on its own. It needs current trunk (r1005870) to compile as it
>> relies on changes to libkdecore KLocale time reading/formatting.
>>
>> There is a small example application that shows the widgets and allows
>> you to change their properties.
>>
>>
>> General
>> =======
>> Both widgets use the current locale time-format the use has set in his
>> systemsettings (Regional & Language) for time output. Input is possible
>> using this format as well, but additionally the widgets will always
>> recognize 24h hour input format (eg. 22:13:50) and military format
>> without separators (eg. 221350).
>>
>>
>> KTimeEdit
>> =========
>> This widget is a time-editor with spinbox controls and looks the same
>> like QTimeEdit (meant as a replacement). If the current time format
>> contains am/pm it can also show a separate combo-box for choosing am or
>> pm. The spinbox controls change the part of the time the cursor currently
>> hovers.
>>
>> Properties:
>> - time (can be set using a QTimeEdit and "set time" button in the
>> example) - separate am/pm - if set to true a separate combobox for am/pm
>> is shown, if set to false, am/pm is shown inline
>> - duration - if set to true the widget expects input of a duration (ie.
>> locale-defined format but in 24h format and without am/pm part)
>> - include seconds - controls wether the seconds part of the time is shown
>> to the user
>> - acceptable input (press the check button to see if the current input is
>> an acceptable time)
>>
>> Keyboard controls:
>> - mimick the behaviour of QTimeEdit and change the part of the time at
>> the current cursor position
>> - Up/Down changes the current cursor position by +1/-1
>> - PgUp/PgDown changes the current cursor position by +10/-10
>>
>>
>> KTimeChooser
>> ============
>> This widget presents a combo-box style editor for times. On opening the
>> combo-box the user is presented with a list of times to choose from (in
>> 15 minute intervals). It is basically a rework of the widget visible in
>> KOrganizer's "New Event" window.
>>
>> Properties:
>> - time (can be set using a QTimeEdit and "set time" button in the
>> example) - editable - if set to false the time chooser will only allow to
>> choose a time, but not to edit it
>> - include seconds - controls wether the seconds part of the time is shown
>> to the user
>> - acceptable input (press the check button to see if the current input is
>> an acceptable time)
>>
>> Keyboard controls:
>> - mimick the behaviour of the timechooser in KOrganizer but could be
>> adapted to the way KTimeEdit handles it
>> - Up/Down changes minutes
>> - PgUp/PgDown changes hours
>>
>>
>> Thanks and kind regards,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> kde-usability mailing list
>> kde-usability@...
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-usability
>>
>
>
>

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[Celeste Lyn Paul]

> Screenshots won't be very useful I fear but I will attach one. Actually same
> for a screencast - I guess it's more about an intuitive feel when using the
> widgets (and I don't know if that would come across in a screencast).

Is this UI for in KDevelop/QtDeveloper to edit the widget properties?
Would it be a popup config UI or integrated into one of the sliding
panel toolbox things?

> Is it about the compiling? Is there any other way I could make those widgets
> accessible to you?

Could you do a debian package maybe?

>
> Regards,
> Michael
>
>>> I'd like to get some usability input for two time input widgets I've
>>> created. The code is currently located in playground:
>>> http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playground/libs/ui/ktimewidgets and can be
>>> compiled on its own. It needs current trunk (r1005870) to compile as it
>>> relies on changes to libkdecore KLocale time reading/formatting.
>>>
>>> There is a small example application that shows the widgets and allows
>>> you to change their properties.
>>>
>>>
>>> General
>>> =======
>>> Both widgets use the current locale time-format the use has set in his
>>> systemsettings (Regional & Language) for time output. Input is possible
>>> using this format as well, but additionally the widgets will always
>>> recognize 24h hour input format (eg. 22:13:50) and military format
>>> without separators (eg. 221350).
>>>
>>>
>>> KTimeEdit
>>> =========
>>> This widget is a time-editor with spinbox controls and looks the same
>>> like QTimeEdit (meant as a replacement). If the current time format
>>> contains am/pm it can also show a separate combo-box for choosing am or
>>> pm. The spinbox controls change the part of the time the cursor currently
>>> hovers.
>>>
>>> Properties:
>>> - time (can be set using a QTimeEdit and "set time" button in the
>>> example) - separate am/pm - if set to true a separate combobox for am/pm
>>> is shown, if set to false, am/pm is shown inline
>>> - duration - if set to true the widget expects input of a duration (ie.
>>> locale-defined format but in 24h format and without am/pm part)
>>> - include seconds - controls wether the seconds part of the time is shown
>>> to the user
>>> - acceptable input (press the check button to see if the current input is
>>> an acceptable time)
>>>
>>> Keyboard controls:
>>> - mimick the behaviour of QTimeEdit and change the part of the time at
>>> the current cursor position
>>> - Up/Down changes the current cursor position by +1/-1
>>> - PgUp/PgDown changes the current cursor position by +10/-10
>>>
>>>
>>> KTimeChooser
>>> ============
>>> This widget presents a combo-box style editor for times. On opening the
>>> combo-box the user is presented with a list of times to choose from (in
>>> 15 minute intervals). It is basically a rework of the widget visible in
>>> KOrganizer's "New Event" window.
>>>
>>> Properties:
>>> - time (can be set using a QTimeEdit and "set time" button in the
>>> example) - editable - if set to false the time chooser will only allow to
>>> choose a time, but not to edit it
>>> - include seconds - controls wether the seconds part of the time is shown
>>> to the user
>>> - acceptable input (press the check button to see if the current input is
>>> an acceptable time)
>>>
>>> Keyboard controls:
>>> - mimick the behaviour of the timechooser in KOrganizer but could be
>>> adapted to the way KTimeEdit handles it
>>> - Up/Down changes minutes
>>> - PgUp/PgDown changes hours
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks and kind regards,
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> kde-usability mailing list
>>> kde-usability@...
>>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-usability
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> kde-usability mailing list
> kde-usability@...
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-usability
>
>

--
Celeste Lyn Paul
KDE Usability Project
KDE e.V.
www.kde.org
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https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-usability

[macias]

On Sunday 02 August 2009 15:10:15 Michael Leupold wrote:

> KTimeEdit
> =========
> This widget is a time-editor with spinbox controls and looks the
> same like QTimeEdit (meant as a replacement).
> The spinbox controls change the part of the time
> the cursor currently hovers.

The biggest complain I have for this kind of edit-box is that is
confusing to use. First you have to click on the time part, then on a
arrows. It does not feel right for me. It should be something more
like:

^^ ^^ ^^
12:45:20
vv vv vv

It takes more space, true, but it is right in front of your eyes, how
to change this value. The current widget is too complex, it is like
user has to know the algorithm how to change time.

> If the current time
> format contains am/pm it can also show a separate combo-box for
> choosing am or pm.

What about switch-button. Those are two values, it is binary, so combo
is an overkill here.

pm -> click -> am -> click -> pm ->...

> Properties:
> - time (can be set using a QTimeEdit and "set time" button in the
> example) - separate am/pm - if set to true a separate combobox for
> am/pm is shown, if set to false, am/pm is shown inline

I am commenting here from u7y POV -- if you think of editing mode,
what is the purpose of the latter mode (inline)?

> - acceptable input (press the check button to see if the current
> input is an acceptable time)

Errm, this is internal thing (for devs), right? Even if it is, I doubt
it is good approach -- check on fly, check on lost focus seems more
smart. Computer should perform such tasks in the background.

> - PgUp/PgDown changes the current cursor position by +10/-10

Would it make more sense by ~1/4 -- for hours, it would mean 6 hours,
for minutes, 15 minutes. 10 hours it is too big step I think.

> KTimeChooser
> ============
> This widget presents a combo-box style editor for times. On opening
> the combo-box the user is presented with a list of times to choose
> from (in 15 minute intervals). It is basically a rework of the
> widget visible in KOrganizer's "New Event" window.

Maybe naive question but why two widgets, and not one? With ability to
work in two modes (at once) or only selected one. Especially it seems
it is possible to edit time directly.

15 minutes intervals -- it is hardcoded? I think it should be a
property.

Cheers,

PS. Screenshots helped a lot! :-)
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Celeste Lyn Paul wrote:

>> Screenshots won't be very useful I fear but I will attach one. Actually
>> same for a screencast - I guess it's more about an intuitive feel when
>> using the widgets (and I don't know if that would come across in a
>> screencast).
>
> Is this UI for in KDevelop/QtDeveloper to edit the widget properties?
> Would it be a popup config UI or integrated into one of the sliding
> panel toolbox things?

The screenshots I sent to you are of a dialog I built with the sole purpose
of interactively testing the 2 widgets. The property groupboxes are shown
just so you can modify the widget's properties in real-time to try different
modes of operation.

>> Is it about the compiling? Is there any other way I could make those
>> widgets accessible to you?
>
> Could you do a debian package maybe?

I can certainly try but never did this before :-) In case I manage to build
packages, which platform do you need them for? Plain i386? Unfortunately it
would currently also depend on a current build of the current development
version of kdelibs which I don't know if it's available on Kubuntu or
Debian.

How about if we try with a vnc session? Maybe I could even setup something
on my vserver so you could just logon and try it there.

Regards,
Michael


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[Michael Leupold]

Celeste Lyn Paul wrote:

>> Screenshots won't be very useful I fear but I will attach one. Actually
>> same for a screencast - I guess it's more about an intuitive feel when
>> using the widgets (and I don't know if that would come across in a
>> screencast).
>
> Is this UI for in KDevelop/QtDeveloper to edit the widget properties?
> Would it be a popup config UI or integrated into one of the sliding
> panel toolbox things?

The screenshots I sent to you are of a dialog I built with the sole purpose
of interactively testing the 2 widgets. The property groupboxes are shown
just so you can modify the widget's properties in real-time to try different
modes of operation.

>> Is it about the compiling? Is there any other way I could make those
>> widgets accessible to you?
>
> Could you do a debian package maybe?

I can certainly try but never did this before :-) In case I manage to build
packages, which platform do you need them for? Plain i386? Unfortunately it
would currently also depend on a current build of the current development
version of kdelibs which I don't know if it's available on Kubuntu or
Debian.

How about if we try with a vnc session? Maybe I could even setup something
on my vserver so you could just logon and try it there.

Regards,
Michael
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Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

> On Sunday 02 August 2009 15:10:15 Michael Leupold wrote:
>
>> KTimeEdit
>> =========
>> This widget is a time-editor with spinbox controls and looks the
>> same like QTimeEdit (meant as a replacement).
>> The spinbox controls change the part of the time
>> the cursor currently hovers.
>
> The biggest complain I have for this kind of edit-box is that is
> confusing to use. First you have to click on the time part, then on a
> arrows. It does not feel right for me. It should be something more
> like:
>
> ^^ ^^ ^^
> 12:45:20
> vv vv vv
>
> It takes more space, true, but it is right in front of your eyes, how
> to change this value. The current widget is too complex, it is like
> user has to know the algorithm how to change time.

I'll see if I can come up with something like this.

>> If the current time
>> format contains am/pm it can also show a separate combo-box for
>> choosing am or pm.
>
> What about switch-button. Those are two values, it is binary, so combo
> is an overkill here.
>
> pm -> click -> am -> click -> pm ->...

I partly agree but don't have a lot of experience regarding usability. Do
you think the use of such a switch button is intuitive for the user? I can
see how a user understands that he can click to change something if the
widget is a combobox, but I don't know how to make that obvious for such a
switch button - there aren't that many throughout KDE I guess.

>> Properties:
>> - time (can be set using a QTimeEdit and "set time" button in the
>> example) - separate am/pm - if set to true a separate combobox for
>> am/pm is shown, if set to false, am/pm is shown inline
>
> I am commenting here from u7y POV -- if you think of editing mode,
> what is the purpose of the latter mode (inline)?

The inline mode can be edited as well but you have to type the "am" and the
"pm" part of the time manually. It's actually meant to be a developer choice
which input type to use. For unification it would maybe be best to just use
one of the two.

>> - acceptable input (press the check button to see if the current
>> input is an acceptable time)
>
> Errm, this is internal thing (for devs), right? Even if it is, I doubt
> it is good approach -- check on fly, check on lost focus seems more
> smart. Computer should perform such tasks in the background.

yes :-) it's meant solely for you trying it out and for me to see what the
widget is doing. The widget actually sends a signal once an acceptable time
is entered and the user presses enter or the widget looses focus. The button
in the example can be used to check while in the middle of typing a time
value ("is this acceptable?"). Mainly for debugging as well.

>> - PgUp/PgDown changes the current cursor position by +10/-10
>
> Would it make more sense by ~1/4 -- for hours, it would mean 6 hours,
> for minutes, 15 minutes. 10 hours it is too big step I think.

It's currently mimicking QTimeEdit in that regard. Yeah, I think there
should be saner values. Do you think this should be the same for all widgets
wherever used or should the developers be able to adapt?

>> KTimeChooser
>> ============
>> This widget presents a combo-box style editor for times. On opening
>> the combo-box the user is presented with a list of times to choose
>> from (in 15 minute intervals). It is basically a rework of the
>> widget visible in KOrganizer's "New Event" window.
>
> Maybe naive question but why two widgets, and not one? With ability to
> work in two modes (at once) or only selected one. Especially it seems
> it is possible to edit time directly.

I'm not sure if you refer to the similarity in how they are used or about
merging them completely with the separate time entry modes still available,
so I try to explain each of them.

The basic functionalities they provide are different:
- KTimeEdit is meant for entering any time value with the application having
no clue what it will be
- KTimeChooser is meant to be used in places where the user is likely to
choose a "rounded" time, consider eg. choosing the time when scheduling a
meeting (usually :00, :15, :30 or :45)

These functionalities are provided as two widgets for reasons:
- It's easier to code them like that as eg. KTimeChooser doesn't have that
additional am/pm combobox.
- The different use-cases that will make the programmer choose either of the
two when designing his gui. There shouldn't be a need to switch.
- Still if the programmer wants to switch it should be fairly easy due to
the similarities in the widget's interfaces (basic interaction like setting
time, being notified of changes and reading the entered/chosen time).

> 15 minutes intervals -- it is hardcoded? I think it should be a
> property.

Yes, I agree on that but didn't get around doing it yet.

Thanks for your input and regards,
Michael


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[Matthew Woehlke-3]

Michael Leupold wrote:

> Maciej Pilichowski wrote:
>
>> On Sunday 02 August 2009 15:10:15 Michael Leupold wrote:
>>
>>> KTimeEdit
>>> =========
>>> This widget is a time-editor with spinbox controls and looks the
>>> same like QTimeEdit (meant as a replacement).
>>> The spinbox controls change the part of the time
>>> the cursor currently hovers.
>> The biggest complain I have for this kind of edit-box is that is
>> confusing to use. First you have to click on the time part, then on a
>> arrows. It does not feel right for me. It should be something more
>> like:
>>
>> ^^ ^^ ^^
>> 12:45:20
>> vv vv vv
>>
>> It takes more space, true, but it is right in front of your eyes, how
>> to change this value. The current widget is too complex, it is like
>> user has to know the algorithm how to change time.
>
> I'll see if I can come up with something like this.

What about this?

    ^    ^    ^    ^
12 v 45 v 20 v am v

(That is, up/down like normal spin, just with multiple of them... so,
longer, but less tall.)

Note that am/pm switch is solved by using arrows for that also. You
could wrap or have only one enabled at a time.

--
Matthew
Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.
--
Do not expose to hippos. Doing so may void your warranty.

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[macias]

On Tuesday 04 August 2009 00:52:57 Matthew Woehlke wrote:

> What about this?
>
>     ^    ^    ^    ^
> 12 v 45 v 20 v am v
>
> (That is, up/down like normal spin, just with multiple of them...
> so, longer, but less tall.)

Comparing to more elaborate GUI this version saves space for sure, but
there are places -- most trivial, configuring system clock -- where
you do have enough space.

So if it would be possible, and Micheal would be willing to add such
option I would suggest providing an option. The reason is that half
of heigh of editbox (height of one arrow) make a tiny element.

So I would put this in such words (how to use this imaginary option):
* whenever space is not a limit, use elaborate version
* if it is -- use compact version.

One _possible_ advantage of elaborate version is another option (don't
kill me ;-) ) -- arrow per digit.

It would work nice for dates (yes, yes, I know, we are talking about
time, but those should use the same UI after all).

 ^
2009
 v

one click ^ and you get 2008. But in multi-arrow mode, you would see:

^^^^
2009
vvvv

and now each arrow has different meaning, to get 2008 you have to
click one over "9".

Again, with those options it would up to dev (consideration of space
and the purpose of the widget) which version to use.

Cheers,
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Matthew Woehlke schrieb:

> Michael Leupold wrote:
>> Maciej Pilichowski wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday 02 August 2009 15:10:15 Michael Leupold wrote:
>>>
>>>> KTimeEdit
>>>> =========
>>>> This widget is a time-editor with spinbox controls and looks the
>>>> same like QTimeEdit (meant as a replacement).
>>>> The spinbox controls change the part of the time
>>>> the cursor currently hovers.
>>> The biggest complain I have for this kind of edit-box is that is
>>> confusing to use. First you have to click on the time part, then on a
>>> arrows. It does not feel right for me. It should be something more
>>> like:
>>>
>>> ^^ ^^ ^^
>>> 12:45:20
>>> vv vv vv
>>>
>>> It takes more space, true, but it is right in front of your eyes, how
>>> to change this value. The current widget is too complex, it is like
>>> user has to know the algorithm how to change time.
>> I'll see if I can come up with something like this.
>
> What about this?
>
>     ^    ^    ^    ^
> 12 v 45 v 20 v am v
>
> (That is, up/down like normal spin, just with multiple of them... so,
> longer, but less tall.)
>
> Note that am/pm switch is solved by using arrows for that also. You
> could wrap or have only one enabled at a time.
>

I think which type of entry to choose depends heavily on where the
widgets are used and how we expect users to enter times.

Maciej's approach is more limiting regarding GUI design as the height of
the widget exceeds the height of a regular line edit and might look
awkward if used in a form-type layout (especially in line with other
widgets like pushbuttons which are smaller as well).

The main problem I see with Matthew's approach is that the way times can
be entered using the keyboard alone is pretty different from what I
imagined it should be like.

For example provided your time format is something along the lines of
"05:00 pm" in the current KTimeEdit you could just enter one of the
following and would get it auto-corrected to what you want:
- "5:00 pm"
- "5:00pm"
- "17:00"
- "1700"

Basically I designed the widget to accept several different entry
formats a user could enter times with. Unfortunately this won't be
possible using arrows between the numbers.

I'm starting to wonder if there actually IS a holy cow for entering
times that would please mainly-keyboard and mainly-mouse users to an
equal amount :-)

Regards,
Michael

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[Matthew Woehlke-3]

Michael Leupold wrote:

> Matthew Woehlke schrieb:
>> What about this?
>>
>>     ^    ^    ^    ^
>> 12 v 45 v 20 v am v
>>
>> (That is, up/down like normal spin, just with multiple of them... so,
>> longer, but less tall.)
>
> The main problem I see with Matthew's approach is that the way times can
> be entered using the keyboard alone is pretty different from what I
> imagined it should be like.
>
> Basically I designed the widget to accept several different entry
> formats a user could enter times with. Unfortunately this won't be
> possible using arrows between the numbers.

What is the problem? This shouldn't be much different from designing an
ip-address widget. Each "sub-field" takes two numbers, with separator
(':', ' ', '.', etc) skipping to the next sub-field. When you skip to
the next sub-field, auto-select that sub-field so typing erases the old
value. The only problem is you can't type "100" to get 01:00; you'd have
to either type the leading '0' or type a separator.

--
Matthew
Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.
--
/bin/sh -- still Bourne on Solaris (and still not POSIX compliant)

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[macias]

On Monday 03 August 2009 22:09:11 Michael Leupold wrote:

> > ^^ ^^ ^^
> > 12:45:20
> > vv vv vv
> >
> > It takes more space, true, but it is right in front of your eyes,
> > how to change this value. The current widget is too complex, it
> > is like user has to know the algorithm how to change time.
>
> I'll see if I can come up with something like this.

It would be _really_ great :-) Thank you in advance.

> > pm -> click -> am -> click -> pm ->...
>
> I partly agree but don't have a lot of experience regarding
> usability. Do you think the use of such a switch button is
> intuitive for the user? I can see how a user understands that he
> can click to change something if the widget is a combobox, but I
> don't know how to make that obvious for such a switch button -
> there aren't that many throughout KDE I guess.

If you are serious about the above ala-spinbox UI Matthew give perfect
solution -- using exactly the same UI for am/pm as for the rest of
elements. It would be a little overkill in terms of efficiency (two
widgets for setting binary value) but it would be great for
consistency, so I am all for that.

So I am getting back with this idea -- each element would be exactly
the same -- editbox plus "spinbox". It would be up to user how to
change the value, but no matter which part is edited, editing is
always the same.

> >> - PgUp/PgDown changes the current cursor position by +10/-10
> >
> > Would it make more sense by ~1/4 -- for hours, it would mean 6
> > hours, for minutes, 15 minutes. 10 hours it is too big step I
> > think.
>
> It's currently mimicking QTimeEdit in that regard. Yeah, I think
> there should be saner values. Do you think this should be the same
> for all widgets wherever used or should the developers be able to
> adapt?

IMHO it should be hardcoded (I very rarely say that :-) ). Hardcoded
_ratio_, not the value. I think the best ratio would be either 1/6
(this won't work well for ms) or 1/4.

> The basic functionalities they provide are different:
> - KTimeEdit is meant for entering any time value with the
> application having no clue what it will be
> - KTimeChooser is meant to be used in places where the user is
> likely to choose a "rounded" time, consider eg. choosing the time
> when scheduling a meeting (usually :00, :15, :30 or :45)

Comparing those two:
But also they are similar. Consider such case. Joe uses KDE for a
year, he already knows the presets are with 15 minutes, and since his
appointment is 17:15 the fastest way is to pick up this value instead
of editing. It is 13.00. Hour later, he has to reschedule this
meeting to 17:25. So he just correct "1" to "2".

Now, notice in first step he used KTimeChooser mode, in second
KTimeEdit. If you separate those two in such way that combined widget
won't be possible Joe either has to use only presets or only manually
edit time.

Another story is -- I really doubt combo for time is useful. I see it
rather something like "social security" -- with good UI for time
editor the need of using combo should be 0.

So what I think (summing up) that maybe this split is easier for you,
and with improved KTimeEdit you can keep KTimeChooser a backup widget
(I just tried Korganizer combo for time and I immediatelly felt
tired).

> These functionalities are provided as two widgets for reasons:
> - It's easier to code them like that as eg. KTimeChooser doesn't
> have that additional am/pm combobox.

Adding it won't hurt, right? (up to locale I mean)

Cheers,
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[macias]

On Tuesday 04 August 2009 17:34:41 Michael Leupold wrote:

> I'm starting to wonder if there actually IS a holy cow for entering
> times that would please mainly-keyboard

This part is solved already -- entering manually digits, using up/down
keys plus pgdn/pgup.

> and mainly-mouse users to
> an equal amount :-)

And we are discussing this part I believe.

Cheers,
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