|
KDE4 slow
Hi, I've been using KDE4 for long time in the same host in which before I used
KDE3 (just a difference: before I used KDE3 32bits and now I use KDE4 64
bits).
Exactly the same configuration, exactly the same apps open most of the time.
I use Kubuntu (Intrepid in KDE3 and Jaunty in KDE4).
While KDE4 is a great improvement in usability, ellegance and features, it's
definitively slowe (IMHO)r. For example:
- The new Kmenu is terribly slower than the classic one (using both in KDE4).
It takes ~0.5 seconds to appear after clicking it.
- Switching off the computer is exasperating. After clicking "Shutdown":
- It takes 3-5 seconds until the confirmation window appears (so the
background becomes dark).
- After confirming it, the background is displayed again as usual (no
indication at all that the system is being halted during 6-10 seconds).
- After it, some windows start dissapearing.
- The whole screen gets grey during 1-2 seconds.
- The KDE session finally ends.
- Opening any app (i.e. Konqueror) takes 2-3 times longer than in KDE3 (same
configuration about preloading and so).
- Openining any application window (compose a new mail in Kmail, open a chat
window in Kopete...) takes ~1 second, and the window appears gray during 1
second until it gets rendered.
- Clicking any system-try icon takes 0.5-1 second to display the context menu
or the mini-app (Kmix global volume slider).
- Pressing ALT+F2 takes longer than in KDE3.
Perhaps my host (AMD64 Turion x2 1600 MHz) has no enough RAM (1 GB), but I
don't see too much issues in the used RAM:
~$ free -m
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 988 888 100 0 66 173
-/+ buffers/cache: 648 340
Swap: 1698 0 1698
KEE4 stability is really reasonable (being still a beta version), it's enough
to work with it daily. But the speed it provides makes it hard to work. It
doesn't react immediately to the user actions.
Please take my comment as constructive as possible.
However, is it an admited issue? is it a common feeling from KDE4 users?
And on top of all: can it be improved? is there aim in making it just faster?
Thanks a lot and best regards.
--
Iñaki Baz Castillo < ibc@...>
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Re: KDE4 slow
It's the price of progress. Newer version of the software are heavier and need more power. You can try switching the composite extension off (in the xorg.conf file), if that doesn't work, do like me: use kde3 as the session/desktop environment, and run your favorite KDE4 applications on top of that, until you save enough money to upgrade your computer :)
regards, alvaro. On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 2:55 AM, Iñaki Baz Castillo <ibc@...> wrote:
Hi, I've been using KDE4 for long time in the same host in which before I used
KDE3 (just a difference: before I used KDE3 32bits and now I use KDE4 64
bits).
Exactly the same configuration, exactly the same apps open most of the time.
I use Kubuntu (Intrepid in KDE3 and Jaunty in KDE4).
While KDE4 is a great improvement in usability, ellegance and features, it's
definitively slowe (IMHO)r. For example:
- The new Kmenu is terribly slower than the classic one (using both in KDE4).
It takes ~0.5 seconds to appear after clicking it.
- Switching off the computer is exasperating. After clicking "Shutdown":
- It takes 3-5 seconds until the confirmation window appears (so the
background becomes dark).
- After confirming it, the background is displayed again as usual (no
indication at all that the system is being halted during 6-10 seconds).
- After it, some windows start dissapearing.
- The whole screen gets grey during 1-2 seconds.
- The KDE session finally ends.
- Opening any app (i.e. Konqueror) takes 2-3 times longer than in KDE3 (same
configuration about preloading and so).
- Openining any application window (compose a new mail in Kmail, open a chat
window in Kopete...) takes ~1 second, and the window appears gray during 1
second until it gets rendered.
- Clicking any system-try icon takes 0.5-1 second to display the context menu
or the mini-app (Kmix global volume slider).
- Pressing ALT+F2 takes longer than in KDE3.
Perhaps my host (AMD64 Turion x2 1600 MHz) has no enough RAM (1 GB), but I
don't see too much issues in the used RAM:
~$ free -m
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 988 888 100 0 66 173
-/+ buffers/cache: 648 340
Swap: 1698 0 1698
KEE4 stability is really reasonable (being still a beta version), it's enough
to work with it daily. But the speed it provides makes it hard to work. It
doesn't react immediately to the user actions.
Please take my comment as constructive as possible.
However, is it an admited issue? is it a common feeling from KDE4 users?
And on top of all: can it be improved? is there aim in making it just faster?
Thanks a lot and best regards.
--
Iñaki Baz Castillo <ibc@...>
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Re: KDE4 slow
El Jueves, 25 de Junio de 2009, Alvaro Aguilera escribió:
> It's the price of progress. Newer version of the software are heavier and
> need more power.
> You can try switching the composite extension off (in the xorg.conf file),
> if that doesn't work, do like me: use kde3 as the session/desktop
> environment, and run your favorite KDE4 applications on top of that, until
> you save enough money to upgrade your computer :)
The fact is that dissabling composite (nvidia driver) the speed is really
similar.
So, do you think I need a better computer for KDE4? The fact is that I'll buy
a new one :), but I really expected that 1 GB RAM and CPU 1600 MHz (dual core)
was enough for "using" KDE4 with just a few apps open (Konqueror, Kopete,
Kontact and Yakuake plus KDE4 core daemons).
--
Iñaki Baz Castillo < ibc@...>
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Re: KDE4 slow
On Wednesday 24 June 2009 21:12:23 Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote:
> The fact is that dissabling composite (nvidia driver) the speed is really
> similar.
>
> So, do you think I need a better computer for KDE4? The fact is that I'll
> buy a new one :), but I really expected that 1 GB RAM and CPU 1600 MHz
> (dual core) was enough for "using" KDE4 with just a few apps open
> (Konqueror, Kopete, Kontact and Yakuake plus KDE4 core daemons).
You don't need a better computer, you need better video drivers. KDE 4's
compositing support relies on features of graphics cards that are not often
used by games or other 3D software. Therefore the driver support for these
features is generally poor. Older mobile Intel chipset for laptops and such
work nicely in my experience. In theory older Radeon cards are good as well
(r300 series or lower!) I have a r500 card and the graphics work but
compositing is unbearably slow (and it wasn't better when I had nvidia
either).
In short, you just need to wait for the video driver support to catch up to
allow compositing to work smoothly.
Regards,
- Michael Pyne
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Re: KDE4 slow
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Iñaki Baz Castillo <ibc@...> wrote:
The fact is that dissabling composite (nvidia driver) the speed is really
similar.
So, do you think I need a better computer for KDE4? The fact is that I'll buy
a new one :), but I really expected that 1 GB RAM and CPU 1600 MHz (dual core)
was enough for "using" KDE4 with just a few apps open (Konqueror, Kopete,
Kontact and Yakuake plus KDE4 core daemons).
Iñaki, I have a netbook (very similar to MSI Wind U100): Atom 1.6GHz (32bits), 2GB of RAM and an integrated Intel video card. I am running Slackware-current (between 12.2 and 13.0) on it and KDE-4.2.4.
No, it doesn't run as fast as my Desktop computer (Quadcore Q6600 @2.4GHz, 8GB of RAM and a NVidia 9600GT), but it runs quite nicely, taking the kind of hardware power I have on my netbook. Yes, I believe KDE3 would run faster on it. But then... sometimes it is a matter of "personal taste". I like the visual (and usability) of KDE4 more, so I have quit using KDE3 since KDE-4.0 was out :)
Oh, on my netbook I disabled the "desktop effects" in KDE4. That already gives me a little boost in performance on the netbook. On the desktop I use loads of FX ;) Kenjiro
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Re: KDE4 slow
El Jueves, 25 de Junio de 2009, Michael Pyne escribió:
> On Wednesday 24 June 2009 21:12:23 Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote:
> > The fact is that dissabling composite (nvidia driver) the speed is really
> > similar.
> >
> > So, do you think I need a better computer for KDE4? The fact is that I'll
> > buy a new one :), but I really expected that 1 GB RAM and CPU 1600 MHz
> > (dual core) was enough for "using" KDE4 with just a few apps open
> > (Konqueror, Kopete, Kontact and Yakuake plus KDE4 core daemons).
>
> You don't need a better computer, you need better video drivers. KDE 4's
> compositing support relies on features of graphics cards that are not often
> used by games or other 3D software. Therefore the driver support for these
> features is generally poor. Older mobile Intel chipset for laptops and
> such work nicely in my experience. In theory older Radeon cards are good
> as well (r300 series or lower!) I have a r500 card and the graphics work
> but compositing is unbearably slow (and it wasn't better when I had nvidia
> either).
>
> In short, you just need to wait for the video driver support to catch up to
> allow compositing to work smoothly.
Well, as I say I feel the same feeling dissabing composite :(
--
Iñaki Baz Castillo < ibc@...>
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Re: KDE4 slow
Thats weird!
I have a EeePC with 2Gb RAM and 630Mhz on use, with Kopete, Kontact (Kmail + Kaddressbook + Kalendar + ToDo + Journal), Skype, Opera with tons of tabs, 2 PDF opened, yakuake and im not reporting problems
Im using Composite but no desktop effects, i havent problem with that, but is a laptop, and desktop effects can kill my battery faster.
That my free -m and df -h
Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
rootfs 3.7G 3.4G 70M 99% /
/dev/root 3.7G 3.4G 70M 99% /
rc-svcdir 1.0M 60K 964K 6% /lib/rc/init.d
udev 10M 152K 9.9M 2% /dev
shm 1009M 0 1009M 0% /dev/shm
tmpfs 1000M 520M 481M 52% /tmp
tmpfs 1009M 44K 1009M 1% /var/run
tmpfs 1009M 216K 1008M 1% /var/log
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 2016 1962 53 0 10 1409
-/+ buffers/cache: 543 1473
Swap: 124 4 120
My swap is 128MB ram and i have a lot on cache...
So, is a problem with your system or daemons =\
Weird...
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Iñaki Baz Castillo <ibc@...> wrote:
El Jueves, 25 de Junio de 2009, Michael Pyne escribió:
> On Wednesday 24 June 2009 21:12:23 Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote:
> > The fact is that dissabling composite (nvidia driver) the speed is really
> > similar.
> >
> > So, do you think I need a better computer for KDE4? The fact is that I'll
> > buy a new one :), but I really expected that 1 GB RAM and CPU 1600 MHz
> > (dual core) was enough for "using" KDE4 with just a few apps open
> > (Konqueror, Kopete, Kontact and Yakuake plus KDE4 core daemons).
>
> You don't need a better computer, you need better video drivers. KDE 4's
> compositing support relies on features of graphics cards that are not often
> used by games or other 3D software. Therefore the driver support for these
> features is generally poor. Older mobile Intel chipset for laptops and
> such work nicely in my experience. In theory older Radeon cards are good
> as well (r300 series or lower!) I have a r500 card and the graphics work
> but compositing is unbearably slow (and it wasn't better when I had nvidia
> either).
>
> In short, you just need to wait for the video driver support to catch up to
> allow compositing to work smoothly.
-- Pablo Cholaky Gentoo user and developer Slash.cl Owner Blablabla
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Re: KDE4 slow
On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 2:55 AM, Iñaki Baz Castillo< ibc@...> wrote:
> Hi, I've been using KDE4 for long time in the same host in which before I used
> KDE3 (just a difference: before I used KDE3 32bits and now I use KDE4 64
> bits).
>
> Exactly the same configuration, exactly the same apps open most of the time.
> I use Kubuntu (Intrepid in KDE3 and Jaunty in KDE4).
>
>
> While KDE4 is a great improvement in usability, ellegance and features, it's
> definitively slowe (IMHO)r. For example:
>
> - The new Kmenu is terribly slower than the classic one (using both in KDE4).
> It takes ~0.5 seconds to appear after clicking it.
>
> - Switching off the computer is exasperating. After clicking "Shutdown":
> - It takes 3-5 seconds until the confirmation window appears (so the
> background becomes dark).
> - After confirming it, the background is displayed again as usual (no
> indication at all that the system is being halted during 6-10 seconds).
> - After it, some windows start dissapearing.
> - The whole screen gets grey during 1-2 seconds.
> - The KDE session finally ends.
>
> - Opening any app (i.e. Konqueror) takes 2-3 times longer than in KDE3 (same
> configuration about preloading and so).
>
> - Openining any application window (compose a new mail in Kmail, open a chat
> window in Kopete...) takes ~1 second, and the window appears gray during 1
> second until it gets rendered.
>
> - Clicking any system-try icon takes 0.5-1 second to display the context menu
> or the mini-app (Kmix global volume slider).
>
> - Pressing ALT+F2 takes longer than in KDE3.
>
>
> Perhaps my host (AMD64 Turion x2 1600 MHz) has no enough RAM (1 GB), but I
> don't see too much issues in the used RAM:
>
> ~$ free -m
> total used free shared buffers cached
> Mem: 988 888 100 0 66 173
> -/+ buffers/cache: 648 340
> Swap: 1698 0 1698
>
>
>
> KEE4 stability is really reasonable (being still a beta version), it's enough
> to work with it daily. But the speed it provides makes it hard to work. It
> doesn't react immediately to the user actions.
>
>
> Please take my comment as constructive as possible.
> However, is it an admited issue? is it a common feeling from KDE4 users?
> And on top of all: can it be improved? is there aim in making it just faster?
I personally feel you are right in that speed has decreased quite a
bit in the switch between KDE 3 and KDE 4. Part of that might indeed
be attributable to video drivers (KDE 4 uses much more advanced
drawing) but imho compositing is NOT the issue. As Alvaro said the
price of progress might play a role as well, but I think it's mostly
because there still is a lot of work in terms of optimizing left.
You mention the alt-F2 menu - it's slow for me too. And I hate that.
Another thing is konqi - I have it preloaded and linked to a special
button on my keyboard. In KDE 3 it used to start instantaneously,
these days it can easily take up to ten (!) seconds...
You can use the kstartperf tool to measure app startup time. Eg konqi
gives me 11 sec (!) on first startup, 1.25 sec if I launch it right
after that first start. Dragonplayer (the 'simple' videoplayer) takes
a solid 5 seconds the first time and 1.3 the second time. Most apps
take quite long, kcalc however can still start in less than 0.5 sec
here ;-)
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Re: KDE4 slow
Hi,
I have the same, my computer is simply unuseable with KDE4.
Am Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 03:18:45 schrieb Michael Pyne:
> In short, you just need to wait for the video driver support to catch up to
> allow compositing to work smoothly.
My video drivers are not supported any more (NVIDIA) because the card is just
to old. Does this mean that I'll never have a fast running KDE4 on my
computer?
Karl
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 Re: KDE4 slow
Hi,
I have the same, my computer is simply unuseable with KDE4.
Am Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 03:18:45 schrieb Michael Pyne:
> In short, you just need to wait for the video driver support to catch up to
> allow compositing to work smoothly.
My video drivers are not supported any more (NVIDIA) because the card is just
to old. Does this mean that I'll never have a fast running KDE4 on my
computer?
Karl
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Re: KDE4 slow
Am Donnerstag 25 Juni 2009 schrieb Karl Sinn:
> Hi,
>
> I have the same, my computer is simply unuseable with KDE4.
>
> Am Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 03:18:45 schrieb Michael Pyne:
> > In short, you just need to wait for the video driver support to catch up
> > to allow compositing to work smoothly.
>
> My video drivers are not supported any more (NVIDIA) because the card is
> just to old. Does this mean that I'll never have a fast running KDE4 on my
> computer?
>
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
> kde-quality mailing list
> kde-quality@...
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-qualityYou can try the old 173.14 nvidia driver, which is working perfectly om my old
nvidia 5700 ultra on my desktop pc.
There is no need, to use the latest 18x.xx drivers, as the new features are
not supported by old cards. Of course, you should use xserver-xorg 7.3, as it
depends on it. The newer xserver-xorg 7.4 got also festures, your card does
not support, and so it is no need to upgrade to 7.4.
Good luck!
Hans-J. Ullrich
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Re: KDE4 slow
I think something about KDE4 should be re-engineered. The applications you are continuously using (a file manager, kicker, window manager, menus, etc.) should open/work instantaneously. Having to wait, even for 1 second, has a psychological impact and degrades the overall experience.
My computer is not _that_ old (laptop with 2 cores at 2ghz, 4gb ram and intel 945 graphics) and I'm still using KDE3 because KDE4 feels very slow in comparison to KDE3. The applications from KDE4 work great and fast, when they run outside KDE4, so the problem must reside at the window manager, or similar. It would be great to have a KDE4-lite version, without plasma, and with a very basic, very fast, window manager. Having kde3 and kde4 installed on the same machine is becoming increasingly a PITA, since there are package-conflicts with some files, and sometimes they compete for resources like the sound card...
I have the same, my computer is simply unuseable with KDE4.
Am Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 03:18:45 schrieb Michael Pyne:
> In short, you just need to wait for the video driver support to catch up to
> allow compositing to work smoothly.
My video drivers are not supported any more (NVIDIA) because the card is just
to old. Does this mean that I'll never have a fast running KDE4 on my
computer?
Karl _______________________________________________
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Re: KDE4 slow
Am Donnerstag 25 Juni 2009 schrieb Alvaro Aguilera:
> I think something about KDE4 should be re-engineered. The applications you
> are continuously using (a file manager, kicker, window manager, menus,
> etc.) should open/work instantaneously. Having to wait, even for 1 second,
> has a psychological impact and degrades the overall experience.
>
> My computer is not _that_ old (laptop with 2 cores at 2ghz, 4gb ram and
> intel 945 graphics) and I'm still using KDE3 because KDE4 feels very slow
> in comparison to KDE3. The applications from KDE4 work great and fast, when
> they run outside KDE4, so the problem must reside at the window manager, or
> similar. It would be great to have a KDE4-lite version, without plasma, and
> with a very basic, very fast, window manager. Having kde3 and kde4
> installed on the same machine is becoming increasingly a PITA, since there
> are package-conflicts with some files, and sometimes they compete for
> resources like the sound card...
>
>
> I have the same, my computer is simply unuseable with KDE4.
>
> > Am Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 03:18:45 schrieb Michael Pyne:
> > > In short, you just need to wait for the video driver support to catch
> > > up
> >
> > to
> >
> > > allow compositing to work smoothly.
> >
> > My video drivers are not supported any more (NVIDIA) because the card is
> > just
> > to old. Does this mean that I'll never have a fast running KDE4 on my
> > computer?
> >
> > Karl
Yes, same to me. My computer is a laptop (Aspire 7520G) with 2G Ram, Nvidia
Geforce 8400 (512MB) and Debian-amd64 on it.
KDE4 is also running very slow on it (in comparision to kde3), and I have no
plasma effects or other special effects activated. Composite is deactivated in
xorg.conf. Although it is still usuable, It is feeling like running Windows XP
on a machine with 800MHz and 256MB Ram, which let XP run, but not smooth.
But I do not want to mourne, as I think, the developers know about this
problem well, and are working on it hard. IMO there is (as KDE4 is completely
new code), a lot to improve in the code itself. Another reason, and this is my
very personal opinion, might be the interference with old kde3-libs. So, if
you take a closer look, you see two kdewallets (which is involved in kded)
running: the old one and the new one.
Additionally, there is a problem with a lot of kio_http processes (search
after it in the bugreports), which is dramatically slowing down the machine
(especially older ones).
I think, the developers know of this, too, and as the background of kde is "to
make a computer mure usable for all", they will aim to speedup KDE4 to the
speed as in KDE3.
Let us hope for the best and look forward!
Cheers
Hans-J. Ullrich
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Re: KDE4 slow
QT-4 is double-buffered which itself poses a lot of overhead compared to QT-3.
I also found the default theme (oxygen) used by KDE4 to be a CPU
sucker. All the beautiful gradients come at a price (gradients are not
hw accelerated).
I now use the Windows theme (redmond) which feels a lot snappier (but
looks rather ugly).
- Clemens
2009/6/25, Hans-J. Ullrich < hans.ullrich@...>:
> Am Donnerstag 25 Juni 2009 schrieb Alvaro Aguilera:
>> I think something about KDE4 should be re-engineered. The applications you
>> are continuously using (a file manager, kicker, window manager, menus,
>> etc.) should open/work instantaneously. Having to wait, even for 1 second,
>> has a psychological impact and degrades the overall experience.
>>
>> My computer is not _that_ old (laptop with 2 cores at 2ghz, 4gb ram and
>> intel 945 graphics) and I'm still using KDE3 because KDE4 feels very slow
>> in comparison to KDE3. The applications from KDE4 work great and fast,
>> when
>> they run outside KDE4, so the problem must reside at the window manager,
>> or
>> similar. It would be great to have a KDE4-lite version, without plasma,
>> and
>> with a very basic, very fast, window manager. Having kde3 and kde4
>> installed on the same machine is becoming increasingly a PITA, since there
>> are package-conflicts with some files, and sometimes they compete for
>> resources like the sound card...
>>
>>
>> I have the same, my computer is simply unuseable with KDE4.
>>
>> > Am Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 03:18:45 schrieb Michael Pyne:
>> > > In short, you just need to wait for the video driver support to catch
>> > > up
>> >
>> > to
>> >
>> > > allow compositing to work smoothly.
>> >
>> > My video drivers are not supported any more (NVIDIA) because the card is
>> > just
>> > to old. Does this mean that I'll never have a fast running KDE4 on my
>> > computer?
>> >
>> > Karl
>
> Yes, same to me. My computer is a laptop (Aspire 7520G) with 2G Ram, Nvidia
> Geforce 8400 (512MB) and Debian-amd64 on it.
>
> KDE4 is also running very slow on it (in comparision to kde3), and I have no
> plasma effects or other special effects activated. Composite is deactivated
> in
> xorg.conf. Although it is still usuable, It is feeling like running Windows
> XP
> on a machine with 800MHz and 256MB Ram, which let XP run, but not smooth.
>
> But I do not want to mourne, as I think, the developers know about this
> problem well, and are working on it hard. IMO there is (as KDE4 is
> completely
> new code), a lot to improve in the code itself. Another reason, and this is
> my
> very personal opinion, might be the interference with old kde3-libs. So, if
> you take a closer look, you see two kdewallets (which is involved in kded)
> running: the old one and the new one.
>
> Additionally, there is a problem with a lot of kio_http processes (search
> after it in the bugreports), which is dramatically slowing down the machine
> (especially older ones).
>
> I think, the developers know of this, too, and as the background of kde is
> "to
> make a computer mure usable for all", they will aim to speedup KDE4 to the
> speed as in KDE3.
>
> Let us hope for the best and look forward!
>
> Cheers
>
> Hans-J. Ullrich
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> kde-quality mailing list
> kde-quality@...
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-quality>
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Re: KDE4 slow
On Thursday 25 June 2009, Alvaro Aguilera wrote:
> in comparison to KDE3. The applications from KDE4 work great and fast, when
> they run outside KDE4, so the problem must reside at the window manager, or
> similar. It would be great to have a KDE4-lite version, without plasma, and
> with a very basic, very fast, window manager. Having kde3 and kde4
so, the problem with this entire conversation is that none of you are actually
measuring anything. while i'm sure it's enjoyable to gripe about things,
without measurement there is no way to know:
* where in the code the problem(s) actually lie
* what the cause of the problem(s) are
* the severity and type of the problem(s)
without that information it's quite impossible to make things better. if you
want to help improve things, then investigate and measure. do some sleuth
work. simply saying "oh, we should have a version that does $FOO" will likely
end up with little improvement and just as likely provide a worse experience.
someone mentioned kio slaves, and that's an interesting case in point. "plasma
was really slow" was the report we got from some people; turns out it was
kio_http that was going nuts and taking 100% cpu. it was getting launched by a
plasma widget that uses http, so it gave the impression it was plasma. in that
case, it wasn't.
there are other such examples. so while there is certainly room for
improvements, there's work to be done to make them happen. leaping to
conclusions without doing the investigation part of that work doesn't help,
but just spreads misinformation which some of us then get to spend the next
years cleaning up after.
i want kde4 to be as fast as possible, just like you. let's try and actually
make that happen.
--
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43
KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Software
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Re: KDE4 slow
Am Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 21:38:24 schrieb Aaron J. Seigo:
> without that information it's quite impossible to make things better. if
> you want to help improve things, then investigate and measure. do some
> sleuth work.
What kind of measures do you need?
How to do them?
Karl
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RE: KDE4 slow
while it's definitely very helpful to have a someone narrowing down the problem, that's usually the programmers job. I am a programmer myself, and when someone comes to me with a demonstrable problem, i track it down and i fix it. that's my job.
as a programmer, one has lots of tools at their disposal that an everyday user, or even a tester (which essentially isn't much differen) does not. For instance, in this particular case, a programmer can put timestamps in the code, log them to a file, and look for big delays to find any bottlenecks.
As to what "part" of KDE (or "not KDE"), i believe the critics have already made that clear: the window manager. (this may be "the desktop" as well, but in any case the GUI). Hard for a user to get much more specific than that: "it takes a while to open and close or window." "It takes a while to shut down KDE." I believe someone actually counted the seconds it did each observable task for while shutting down.
As to "where in the code the problem(s) actually lie" - if someone knew that, they would have already fixed it.
As to "what the cause of the problem(s) are" that has already been stated: 1.) shutdowning down KDE 2.) opening/closing windows, etc. If someone had more detailed info than that to give, well, as w/the first item, they would have already fixed it.
As to "the severity and type of the problem(s)", this has already been answered, too: type: performance. severity: would prefer to use KDE 3 because of it.
________________________________
From: Aaron J. Seigo [mailto: aseigo@...]
Sent: Thu 6/25/2009 2:38 PM
To: Contributors support and coordination, to make KDE rock!
Subject: Re: KDE4 slow
On Thursday 25 June 2009, Alvaro Aguilera wrote:
> in comparison to KDE3. The applications from KDE4 work great and fast, when
> they run outside KDE4, so the problem must reside at the window manager, or
> similar. It would be great to have a KDE4-lite version, without plasma, and
> with a very basic, very fast, window manager. Having kde3 and kde4
so, the problem with this entire conversation is that none of you are actually
measuring anything. while i'm sure it's enjoyable to gripe about things,
without measurement there is no way to know:
* where in the code the problem(s) actually lie
* what the cause of the problem(s) are
* the severity and type of the problem(s)
without that information it's quite impossible to make things better. if you
want to help improve things, then investigate and measure. do some sleuth
work. simply saying "oh, we should have a version that does $FOO" will likely
end up with little improvement and just as likely provide a worse experience.
someone mentioned kio slaves, and that's an interesting case in point. "plasma
was really slow" was the report we got from some people; turns out it was
kio_http that was going nuts and taking 100% cpu. it was getting launched by a
plasma widget that uses http, so it gave the impression it was plasma. in that
case, it wasn't.
there are other such examples. so while there is certainly room for
improvements, there's work to be done to make them happen. leaping to
conclusions without doing the investigation part of that work doesn't help,
but just spreads misinformation which some of us then get to spend the next
years cleaning up after.
i want kde4 to be as fast as possible, just like you. let's try and actually
make that happen.
--
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43
KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Software
_______________________________________________
kde-quality mailing list
kde-quality@...
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Re: KDE4 slow
On Thursday 25 June 2009, Baas, Kevin wrote:
> as a programmer, one has lots of tools at their disposal that an everyday
> user, or even a tester (which essentially isn't much differen) does not.
> For instance, in this particular case, a programmer can put timestamps in
> the code, log them to a file, and look for big delays to find any
> bottlenecks.
if it were that simple. in the case of the "plasma is slow"-"it was actually
kio_http" case, no amount of timestamps in plasma would have identified the
reported problem.
when it comes to painting issues, we have not only plasma, kdelibs and then qt
underneath that, but we have dbus for communication (separate process), kded4
and other daemons (other processes) and even x.org doing the actual painting
(separate process, again)
profiling is certainly a useful tool (and in qt 4.6 qgrahpicsview has received
a huge overhaul due to various profiling that's been done, to very impressive
effect already), but we face a slightly more complicated set of challenges.
> As to what "part" of KDE (or "not KDE"), i believe the critics have already
> made that clear: the window manager. (this may be "the desktop" as well,
> but in any case the GUI).
except that that doesn't really tell us anything about the problem, only
something that adjusts the symptoms, or at least appears to adjust the
symptoms.
> Hard for a user to get much more specific than
> that: "it takes a while to open and close or window." "It takes a while to
> shut down KDE." I believe someone actually counted the seconds it did each
> observable task for while shutting down.
unfortunately that input is hardly useful without further digging.
> As to "where in the code the problem(s) actually lie" - if someone knew
> that, they would have already fixed it.
right, so i'm suggesting we need to find those locations.
> As to "what the cause of the
> problem(s) are" that has already been stated:
those are the symptoms/results of the underlying problem, not the causes.
> "the severity and type of the problem(s)", this has already been answered,
> too: type: performance. severity: would prefer to use KDE 3 because of
> it.
let me clarify that point then, because you've misunderstood me:
once we know where a problem is, we need to know what kind of problem it is
(wrong algorithm? driver / hardware quality issues? poor build? due to
blocking IPC? etc...) so we know what kind of solution to start crafting and
we also need to know how severe that particular problem is so we know how to
prioritize that effort so we achieve maximum results.
--
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43
KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Software
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Re: KDE4 slow
On Thursday 25 June 2009, Karl Sinn wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 21:38:24 schrieb Aaron J. Seigo:
> > without that information it's quite impossible to make things better. if
> > you want to help improve things, then investigate and measure. do some
> > sleuth work.
>
> What kind of measures do you need?
> How to do them?
it will vary from case to case. let's take a look at "my windowing is too
slow" there are simple observational tasks that can be done:
* try a different window manager within plasma, to see if changing that one
variable improves things
* try kwin4 with kdesktop/kicker and see if altering that variable improves
things
* try a different widget style (as someone noted, the gradients in oxygen can
be hard on some systems)
* try a different window decoration
* try: KDE_SKIP_ARGB_VISUALS=1 plasma-desktop
* watch the output of top while performing the tasks that cause problems and
see which processes are using CPU
* see if you can determine specifics about what causes problems and what does
not; someone noted that kcalc starts in ~.5s while dragon takes ~5s. that's an
interesting clue: it shows that it's possible to start a kde4 app quickly, so
what is dragon doing differently? is it the media stack that's causing slow
downs in start up time, for instance? finding variance is often helpful.
from there we can identify where we ought to be looking and then we can get
into more technical tools, like generating call graphs for developers to
analyze using valgrind and its various tools such as massif or callgrind.
when possible solutions are identified, it's really handy to be able to pass
patches from developers to testers to get some broader testing on them done.
--
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43
KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Software
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Re: KDE4 slow
> * try a different widget style (as someone noted, the gradients in oxygen can
> be hard on some systems)
The gradients are hard on _all_ systems.
There is currently no driver (except maybe the proprietary nvidia
driver, which provides really excellent XRender support) which is able
to accelerate gradients.
Its always a software fallback, some drivers digest that better than others.
Thats also the reason why Amarok's main window resizes at crap speed.
Who had the idea to use gradients as table background??
I really should finish my QT theme benchmark, to show the horrible
impact that default theme has for resize/repaint performance.
If I only had a bit time. I'll try to hack something together soon.
- Clemens
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