Kanji reading

[Gareth Rees]

Section 4.6.20, "The ruby element", says:
> In this example, each ideograph in the Japanese text 漢字 is  
> annotated with its kanji reading

The parallelism with "bopomofo reading" and "pinyin reading" in the  
second and third examples in this section implies that "kanji reading"  
is being used to mean "reading written in kanji". But in fact, the  
reading is written in hiragana.

--
Gareth Rees

[Ian Hickson]

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Gareth Rees wrote:
> Section 4.6.20, "The ruby element", says:
> > In this example, each ideograph in the Japanese text 漢字 is annotated
> > with its kanji reading
>
> The parallelism with "bopomofo reading" and "pinyin reading" in the
> second and third examples in this section implies that "kanji reading"
> is being used to mean "reading written in kanji". But in fact, the
> reading is written in hiragana.

What should the example say? "hiragana reading"? I know nothing about
this, so I've no idea what the right label should be. Should the word
"kanji" appear anywhere in the description?

--
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

[Navarr Barnier]

Yes.  The Chinese Characters called "Kanji" in Japanese text are generally annotated using Hiragana or Katakana (collectively "Kana") in a system called Furigana.


---
Navarr T. Barnier
http://www.gtaero.net/



-----Original Message-----
From: public-html-comments-request@... [mailto:public-html-comments-request@...] On Behalf Of Ian Hickson
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 2:34 PM
To: Gareth Rees
Cc: public-html-comments@...
Subject: Re: Kanji reading

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Gareth Rees wrote:
> Section 4.6.20, "The ruby element", says:
> > In this example, each ideograph in the Japanese text 漢字 is annotated
> > with its kanji reading
>
> The parallelism with "bopomofo reading" and "pinyin reading" in the
> second and third examples in this section implies that "kanji reading"
> is being used to mean "reading written in kanji". But in fact, the
> reading is written in hiragana.

What should the example say? "hiragana reading"? I know nothing about this, so I've no idea what the right label should be. Should the word "kanji" appear anywhere in the description?

--
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

[NARUSE, Yui-2]

3.3 Ruby and Emphasis Dots
http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/#en-subheading2_3

This will help you.

--
NARUSE, Yui  <naruse@...>

[Gareth Rees]

Ian Hickson wrote:

>> Section 4.6.20, "The ruby element", says:
>>> In this example, each ideograph in the Japanese text 漢字 is  
>>> annotated
>>> with its kanji reading
>>
>> The parallelism with "bopomofo reading" and "pinyin reading" in the
>> second and third examples in this section implies that "kanji  
>> reading"
>> is being used to mean "reading written in kanji". But in fact, the
>> reading is written in hiragana.
>
> What should the example say? "hiragana reading"? I know nothing about
> this, so I've no idea what the right label should be.

I suggest "reading in hiragana".

"Hiragana reading" implies that there are several types of reading,  
and a hiragana reading is one of them. But really there is only one  
reading (i.e. way to pronounce the word), but several different ways  
to write it. (Google backs me up on this: search results for "reading  
in hiragana" match this use, whereas search results for "hiragana  
reading" do not.)

> Should the word "kanji" appear anywhere in the description?

I think not. You could substitute "kanji" for "ideograph" if you  
prefer: "each kanji in the Japanese text 漢字 is annotated with its  
reading in hiragana" but that probably assumes a bit too much  
knowledge about Japanese for the intended readership.

(Just to confuse matters, 漢字 itself has the reading "kanji" when  
written in Roman letters.)

--
Gareth Rees

[Ian Hickson]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Navarr Barnier wrote:
>
> Yes.  The Chinese Characters called "Kanji" in Japanese text are
> generally annotated using Hiragana or Katakana (collectively "Kana") in
> a system called Furigana.

So what should the example's introduction text say, exactly?

--
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

[Edward O'Connor]

>> Yes.  The Chinese Characters called "Kanji" in Japanese text are
>> generally annotated using Hiragana or Katakana (collectively "Kana") in
>> a system called Furigana.
>
> So what should the example's introduction text say, exactly?

My understanding is that you should refer to it as furigana. At least,
that's what I remember from Japanese class, but that was ten years ago
or so.


Ted

[NARUSE, Yui-2]

We Japanese call them "furigana".
"furi" means assign or attach.
"gana" means hira"gana" and kata"kana".
So "furigana" means attaching kanas to Kanji
(or some string need furigana).


"Requirements for Japanese Text Layout" will help you.
3.3 Ruby and Emphasis Dots
http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/#en-subheading2_3

--
NARUSE, Yui  <naruse@...>

[Ian Hickson]

On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, NARUSE, Yui wrote:
>
> 3.3 Ruby and Emphasis Dots
> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/#en-subheading2_3
>
> This will help you.

It didn't really help, unfortunately. (It didn't answer my question, or
indicate what was wrong with the spec.)


On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Gareth Rees wrote:

> Ian Hickson wrote:
> > > Section 4.6.20, "The ruby element", says:
> > > > In this example, each ideograph in the Japanese text 漢字 is annotated
> > > > with its kanji reading
> > >
> > > The parallelism with "bopomofo reading" and "pinyin reading" in the
> > > second and third examples in this section implies that "kanji reading"
> > > is being used to mean "reading written in kanji". But in fact, the
> > > reading is written in hiragana.
> >
> > What should the example say? "hiragana reading"? I know nothing about
> > this, so I've no idea what the right label should be.
>
> I suggest "reading in hiragana".
>
> "Hiragana reading" implies that there are several types of reading, and
> a hiragana reading is one of them. But really there is only one reading
> (i.e. way to pronounce the word), but several different ways to write
> it. (Google backs me up on this: search results for "reading in
> hiragana" match this use, whereas search results for "hiragana reading"
> do not.)

Ok.

How would you describe the image? Currently it is described as:

   The two main ideographs, each with its kanji annotation rendered in a
   smaller font above it.

Should this be changed also? I've changed it to:

   The two main ideographs, each with its hiragana annotation rendered in
   a smaller font above it.

Is that right?

How about the comment in the source? Right now it says:

   <!-- this is the kanji for the word "kanji" ("chinese character") in japanese -->
   <!-- in japanese, ruby-like typography is called "furigana" -->

Is this wrong also? Should it be changed? What to? I've changed it to:

   <!-- this is the hiragana for the word "kanji" ("chinese character") in japanese -->
   <!-- in japanese, ruby-like typography is called "furigana" -->

Is this right?


> > Should the word "kanji" appear anywhere in the description?
>
> I think not.

Ok.


On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, NARUSE, Yui wrote:
>
> We Japanese call them "furigana".
> "furi" means assign or attach.
> "gana" means hira"gana" and kata"kana".
> So "furigana" means attaching kanas to Kanji
> (or some string need furigana).

Yes, the typography is called furigana, but what is the actual reading in
the example called? Is that also furigana, not hiragana?


On Mon, 7 Sep 2009, David Bailey wrote:

>
> Wikipedia offers some assistance here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji#Pronunciation%20assistance
>
> "Because of the ambiguities involved, kanji sometimes have their
> pronunciation for the given context spelled out in ruby characters known
> as furigana, (small kana written above or to the right of the character)
> or kumimoji (small kana written in-line after the character). This is
> especially true in texts for children or foreign learners and manga
> (comics). It is also used in newspapers for rare or unusual readings and
> for characters not included in the officially recognized set of
> essential kanji."

I'm not sure how to apply this.

--
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

[NARUSE, Yui-2]

Ian Hickson wrote:

> How would you describe the image? Currently it is described as:
>
>    The two main ideographs, each with its kanji annotation rendered in a
>    smaller font above it.
>
> Should this be changed also? I've changed it to:
>
>    The two main ideographs, each with its hiragana annotation rendered in
>    a smaller font above it.
>
> Is that right?

"its hiragana annotation" is little strange for me.

"its ruby annotation in hiragana (a.k.a. furigana)" seems right one.

> How about the comment in the source? Right now it says:
>
>    <!-- this is the kanji for the word "kanji" ("chinese character") in japanese -->
>    <!-- in japanese, ruby-like typography is called "furigana" -->
>
> Is this wrong also? Should it be changed? What to? I've changed it to:
>
>    <!-- this is the hiragana for the word "kanji" ("chinese character") in japanese -->
>    <!-- in japanese, ruby-like typography is called "furigana" -->
>
> Is this right?

I can't understand what the comment want to say in first paragraph.

  this is "KA N JI" in hiragana for the word "kanji" (means "chinese character")
  in japanese?

Second is ok.

> On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, NARUSE, Yui wrote:
>> We Japanese call them "furigana".
>> "furi" means assign or attach.
>> "gana" means hira"gana" and kata"kana".
>> So "furigana" means attaching kanas to Kanji
>> (or some string need furigana).
>
> Yes, the typography is called furigana, but what is the actual reading in
> the example called? Is that also furigana, not hiragana?

We call "furigana" or "yomigana" ("yomi" means reading) or "ruby", not hiragana.

--
NARUSE, Yui  <naruse@...>

[Ian Hickson]

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009, NARUSE, Yui wrote:

> Ian Hickson wrote:
> > How would you describe the image? Currently it is described as:
> >
> >    The two main ideographs, each with its kanji annotation rendered in a
> >    smaller font above it.
> >
> > Should this be changed also? I've changed it to:
> >
> >    The two main ideographs, each with its hiragana annotation rendered in
> >    a smaller font above it.
> >
> > Is that right?
>
> "its hiragana annotation" is little strange for me.
>
> "its ruby annotation in hiragana (a.k.a. furigana)" seems right one.

Ok, I changed the alt text a bit. (I didn't include the furigana bit
because it's already earlier in the text and the image doesn't actualy
convey that anyway.

Cheers,
--
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'