Kmail Paragraph Spacing

[Jonathan B. Horen]

I'm sure this is a feature, not a bug... :)

Messages which I compose in Kmail (or to which I reply) have all spacing
between paragraphs stripped-out.  This makes it extremely difficult to read the
contents of the message.

How can I ensure that inter-paragraph spacing will be retained?
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[Anne Wilson-4]

On Saturday 31 October 2009 14:26:55 Jonathan B. Horen wrote:
> I'm sure this is a feature, not a bug... :)
>
> Messages which I compose in Kmail (or to which I reply) have all spacing
> between paragraphs stripped-out.  This makes it extremely difficult to read
>  the contents of the message.
>
> How can I ensure that inter-paragraph spacing will be retained?

Odd, because you sent that one from KMail, and the paragraphs are properly
separated.  You need to keep a check on the messages where this happens, to
see if you can find any pattern.

Anne
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[Ingo Klöcker]

On Saturday 31 October 2009, Anne Wilson wrote:

> On Saturday 31 October 2009 14:26:55 Jonathan B. Horen wrote:
> > I'm sure this is a feature, not a bug... :)
> >
> > Messages which I compose in Kmail (or to which I reply) have all
> > spacing between paragraphs stripped-out.  This makes it extremely
> > difficult to read the contents of the message.
> >
> > How can I ensure that inter-paragraph spacing will be retained?
>
> Odd, because you sent that one from KMail, and the paragraphs are
> properly separated.  You need to keep a check on the messages where
> this happens, to see if you can find any pattern.

Could it be that this happens if you reply to HTML messages?


Regards,
Ingo


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[djmills]

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Hi,

I am getting the same behaviour. Using v to look at the message source I have discovered that the message itself is fine, but the kmail when it displays the message is dropping the spacing paragraphs. To demonstrate I will save this message as a draft and then get kmail to view. I'll take a snapshot and attach to this before sending.

This paragraph is just for demonstration.

As you can see in the attached image, all the paragraph spacing is gone. This is using KDE 4.1.3 (release 4.10.4) which contains kmail 1.10.3.

Best regards,

David.

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On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 08:01:46 Ingo Klöcker wrote:

> On Saturday 31 October 2009, Anne Wilson wrote:

> > On Saturday 31 October 2009 14:26:55 Jonathan B. Horen wrote:

> > > I'm sure this is a feature, not a bug... :)

> > >

> > > Messages which I compose in Kmail (or to which I reply) have all

> > > spacing between paragraphs stripped-out. This makes it extremely

> > > difficult to read the contents of the message.

> > >

> > > How can I ensure that inter-paragraph spacing will be retained?

> >

> > Odd, because you sent that one from KMail, and the paragraphs are

> > properly separated. You need to keep a check on the messages where

> > this happens, to see if you can find any pattern.

>

> Could it be that this happens if you reply to HTML messages?

>

>

> Regards,

> Ingo

>

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[Ingo Klöcker]

On Saturday 31 October 2009, djmills@... wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am getting the same behaviour.  Using v to look at the message
> source I have discovered that the message itself is fine, but the
> kmail when it displays the message is dropping the spacing
> paragraphs.  To demonstrate I will save this message as a draft and
> then get kmail to view.  I'll take a snapshot and attach to this
> before sending.
>
> This paragraph is just for demonstration.
>
> As you can see in the attached image, all the paragraph spacing is
> gone.  This is using KDE 4.1.3 (release 4.10.4) which contains kmail
> 1.10.3.

Hmm, maybe this was a bug in this version of KMail. I suggest upgrading
to KDE 4.3.2. OTOH, Jonathan is using KDE 4.3.2. Hmm. Let's see what he
says.


Regards,
Ingo


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[Jonathan B. Horen]

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> Hmm, maybe this was a bug in this version of KMail. I suggest upgrading 

> to KDE 4.3.2. OTOH, Jonathan is using KDE 4.3.2. Hmm. Let's see what he 

> says.

I'm running a brand-new, fresh installation of Kubuntu/9.10, with (as Ingo mentioned, KDE/4.3.2)

As both Anne and Ingo noted, messages of which I am the original composer appear fine; however, when I reply or forward a message, the spacing between paragraphs disappears.

I'm not even thinking about making a move to Thunderbird... we go forward, not back.

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[Anne Wilson-4]

On Saturday 31 October 2009 22:51:59 Jonathan B. Horen wrote:

> > Hmm, maybe this was a bug in this version of KMail. I suggest upgrading
> > to KDE 4.3.2. OTOH, Jonathan is using KDE 4.3.2. Hmm. Let's see what he
> > says.
>
> I'm running a brand-new, fresh installation of Kubuntu/9.10, with (as Ingo
> mentioned, KDE/4.3.2)
>
> As both Anne and Ingo noted, messages of which I am the original composer
> appear fine; however, when I reply or forward a message, the spacing
>  between paragraphs disappears.
>

That does sound as though the message you reply to might be a factor.  Have

you checked the source of that message to see whether there is html code
there, as Ingo suggested?

> I'm not even thinking about making a move to Thunderbird... we go forward,
>  not back.
>
Nothing wrong with Thunderbird, but I do rely on some of the finer points of
KMail ;-)

Anne
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[Jonathan B. Horen]

> On Saturday 31 October 2009 22:51:59 Jonathan B. Horen wrote:
> > > Hmm, maybe this was a bug in this version of KMail. I suggest upgrading
> > > to KDE 4.3.2. OTOH, Jonathan is using KDE 4.3.2. Hmm. Let's see what he
> > > says.
> >
> > I'm running a brand-new, fresh installation of Kubuntu/9.10, with (as
> > Ingo mentioned, KDE/4.3.2)
> >
> > As both Anne and Ingo noted, messages of which I am the original composer
> > appear fine; however, when I reply or forward a message, the spacing
> >  between paragraphs disappears.
>
> That does sound as though the message you reply to might be a factor.  Have
> you checked the source of that message to see whether there is html code
> there, as Ingo suggested?
>
> > I'm not even thinking about making a move to Thunderbird... we go
> > forward, not back.
>
> Nothing wrong with Thunderbird, but I do rely on some of the finer points
>  of KMail ;-)

In "Configure Kmail", if I unset "Security & Privacy Settings"->"Prefer HTML to
Plain Text", inter-paragraph spacing returns to normal (when viewing email
messages).

Curiouser and curiouser...

WRT last night's time change, here in the US: Staying up until 0200, in order
to watch the onscreen clock reset to 0100, and then arising shortly after
0600, does not leave one feeling "bright-eyed and bushy-tailed"... or even
vaguely refreshed. Note to self, for next year...
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[Anne Wilson-4]

On Sunday 01 November 2009 12:55:54 O. Sinclair wrote:

> Anne Wilson wrote:
> > On Saturday 31 October 2009 22:51:59 Jonathan B. Horen wrote:
> >>> Hmm, maybe this was a bug in this version of KMail. I suggest upgrading
> >>> to KDE 4.3.2. OTOH, Jonathan is using KDE 4.3.2. Hmm. Let's see what he
> >>> says.
> >>
> >> I'm running a brand-new, fresh installation of Kubuntu/9.10, with (as
> >> Ingo mentioned, KDE/4.3.2)
> >>
> >> As both Anne and Ingo noted, messages of which I am the original
> >> composer appear fine; however, when I reply or forward a message, the
> >> spacing between paragraphs disappears.
> >
> > That does sound as though the message you reply to might be a factor.
> > Have you checked the source of that message to see whether there is html
> > code there, as Ingo suggested?
>
> This does not happen to me - and I tested with a very html email just to
> be sure. KDE 4.2.3 and KMail 1.12.2 in Kubuntu 9.10. HTML sort of gets
> washed but the paragraping is not a problem
>

To be honest, I've never seen the problem, but Jonathon's message (next in

thread) seems to imply that html is somehow implicated.

Anne
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On Sunday 01 Nov 2009 4:14:15 am Ingo Klöcker wrote:

> On Saturday 31 October 2009, djmills@... wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am getting the same behaviour.  Using v to look at the message
> > source I have discovered that the message itself is fine, but the
> > kmail when it displays the message is dropping the spacing
> > paragraphs.  To demonstrate I will save this message as a draft and
> > then get kmail to view.  I'll take a snapshot and attach to this
> > before sending.
> >
> > This paragraph is just for demonstration.
> >
> > As you can see in the attached image, all the paragraph spacing is
> > gone.  This is using KDE 4.1.3 (release 4.10.4) which contains kmail
> > 1.10.3.
>
> Hmm, maybe this was a bug in this version of KMail. I suggest upgrading
> to KDE 4.3.2. OTOH, Jonathan is using KDE 4.3.2. Hmm. Let's see what he
> says.

I do recall this issue from earlier versions of KMail. I also recall filing a
bug. It was fixed soon after. This bug only affected me when composing in HTML.
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[Jan Neuhäußer-3]

Am Samstag, 31. Oktober 2009 schrieb djmills@...:

> Hi,
>
> I am getting the same behaviour.  Using v to look at the message source I
> have discovered that the message itself is fine, but the kmail when it
> displays the message is dropping the spacing paragraphs.  To demonstrate I
> will save this message as a draft and then get kmail to view.  I'll take a
> snapshot and attach to this before sending.
>
> This paragraph is just for demonstration.
>
> As you can see in the attached image, all the paragraph spacing is gone.
> This is using KDE 4.1.3 (release 4.10.4) which contains kmail 1.10.3.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David.

Hi David,

this message comes in Plain Text, but your snapshot shows a HTML-Message.

It seems to me that this difference is part of your problem.

Best regards,

Jan

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[djmills]

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Hi Jan,

that's funny, because I looked in my sent-mail folder and the message sent to kdepim-users is in html format there (as a 2 part message: one text and one html). Are you sure that you weren't looking text part?

Best regards,

David.

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On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 06:31:56 Jan Neuhäußer wrote:

> Am Samstag, 31. Oktober 2009 schrieb djmills@...:

> > Hi,

> >

> > I am getting the same behaviour. Using v to look at the message source I

> > have discovered that the message itself is fine, but the kmail when it

> > displays the message is dropping the spacing paragraphs. To demonstrate I

> > will save this message as a draft and then get kmail to view. I'll take a

> > snapshot and attach to this before sending.

> >

> > This paragraph is just for demonstration.

> >

> > As you can see in the attached image, all the paragraph spacing is gone.

> > This is using KDE 4.1.3 (release 4.10.4) which contains kmail 1.10.3.

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > David.

>

> Hi David,

>

> this message comes in Plain Text, but your snapshot shows a HTML-Message.

>

> It seems to me that this difference is part of your problem.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Jan

>

> _______________________________________________

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> kdepim-users@...

> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kdepim-users

>

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[Jan Neuhäußer-3]

Am Sonntag, 1. November 2009 schrieb djmills@...:
> Hi Jan,
>
> that's funny, because I looked in my sent-mail folder and the message sent
> to kdepim-users is in html format there (as a 2 part message: one text and
> one html).  Are you sure that you weren't looking text part?
>
> Best regards,
>
> David.

Hi David,

your are right, my fault. Your message has two parts and I was only looking at
the text-part (because I have configuered kmail to show every message as
text).

In the text-part there are the spacing paragraphs, but in the html-part they
are gone. Not really: in the source it looks like:

<p style=3D"-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; ma=
rgin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-u=
ser-state:0;"></p>

Is it the entry -qt-paragraph-type:empty that makes kmail suppress the
paragraph when it displays it?

Cheers,

Jan

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[djmills]

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Hi Jan,

I did a little test. I copied one of my emails to drafts, then used emacs to edit and stripped out the format "-qt-paragraph-type:empty; ". Saved this and then went to the drafts folder with KMail. The email still looks the same. I double checked that I had my edited copy by pressing v to see the message source. I had the right one. So that's not it.

Doesn't matter. openSUSE 11.2 is coming out in 9 days. I'll upgrade to that and hopefully this bug will disappear.

By the way. I had always thought that when replying to an email the reply should appear above the original quoted text. I have started to notice that other people such as yourself do the opposite - put the reply text below the original message. You use this approach. What can you tell me about the 2 choices?

Anyone else got a comment on this?

Best regards,

David.

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On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 07:00:47 Jan Neuhäußer wrote:

> Am Sonntag, 1. November 2009 schrieb djmills@...:

> > Hi Jan,

> >

> > that's funny, because I looked in my sent-mail folder and the message sent

> > to kdepim-users is in html format there (as a 2 part message: one text and

> > one html). Are you sure that you weren't looking text part?

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > David.

>

> Hi David,

>

> your are right, my fault. Your message has two parts and I was only looking at

> the text-part (because I have configuered kmail to show every message as

> text).

>

> In the text-part there are the spacing paragraphs, but in the html-part they

> are gone. Not really: in the source it looks like:

>

> <p style=3D"-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; ma=

> rgin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-u=

> ser-state:0;"></p>

>

> Is it the entry -qt-paragraph-type:empty that makes kmail suppress the

> paragraph when it displays it?

>

> Cheers,

>

> Jan

>

> _______________________________________________

> KDE PIM users mailing list

> kdepim-users@...

> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kdepim-users

>

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[Ingo Klöcker]

On Monday 02 November 2009, Jan Neuhäußer wrote:

> Am Sonntag, 1. November 2009 schrieb djmills@...:
> > Hi Jan,
> >
> > that's funny, because I looked in my sent-mail folder and the
> > message sent to kdepim-users is in html format there (as a 2 part
> > message: one text and one html).  Are you sure that you weren't
> > looking text part?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > David.
>
> Hi David,
>
> your are right, my fault. Your message has two parts and I was only
> looking at the text-part (because I have configuered kmail to show
> every message as text).
>
> In the text-part there are the spacing paragraphs, but in the
> html-part they are gone. Not really: in the source it looks like:
>
> <p style=3D"-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px;
> margin-bottom:0px; ma= rgin-left:0px; margin-right:0px;
> -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-u= ser-state:0;"></p>
>
> Is it the entry -qt-paragraph-type:empty that makes kmail suppress
> the paragraph when it displays it?

No. It's margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px;. Due to this paragraphs are
not separated by vertical space. It needs to be investigated where
those 0px margins come from. Now that we have identified the cause of
the problem somebody should file a bug report (e.g. via Help->Report
Bug). As I'm still using KDE 3.5 where the problem does not occur I'd
rather not be the one to file the bug report.


Regards,
Ingo


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[Martin Bernreuther-2]

Hi David,

Am Montag, 2. November 2009 schrieb djmills@...:
> By the way.  I had always thought that when replying to an email the reply should appear above the original quoted text.  I have started to notice that other people such as yourself do the opposite - put the reply text below the original message.  You use this approach.  What can you tell me about the 2 choices?

the discussion about the right posting style
(cmp.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style)
is a quite old one and not all persons prefer top-posting...
e.g. http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html,
 http://www.idallen.com/topposting.html,
 http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html,
 http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/gey_stv0.htm,
 ...

> Anyone else got a comment on this?

Personally, I think it's hard to connect the
top-posting email answers/comments to the
single points of the (previously maybe unknown)
original text, which comes as a appendage below
and will naturally be read afterwards.
For a long text with several points to reply to,
I think it's best to put the comments directly
"inline" below each point to make it easier
for the reader getting the context and
irrelevant parts of the original message
should be deleted to keep the reply
short and clear. After all, it doesn't
really matter how you quote. The
resulting email should just be easy
to read and to understand...

And this should definitely NOT
start a flame war on posting styles!!!

Best regards,
        Martin
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[Ingo Klöcker]

On Monday 02 November 2009, djmills@... wrote:
> Hi Jan,
>
> I did a little test.  I copied one of my emails to drafts, then used
> emacs to edit and stripped out the format "-qt-paragraph-type:empty;
> ".  Saved this and then went to the drafts folder with KMail.  The
> email still looks the same.  I double checked that I had my edited
> copy by pressing v to see the message source.  I had the right one.
> So that's not it.

Try removing "margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px;".


> Doesn't matter.  openSUSE 11.2 is coming out in 9 days.  I'll upgrade
> to that and hopefully this bug will disappear.

Since Jonathan is already using the latest version of KDE I wouldn't put
too much hope into this upgrade.


> By the way.  I had always thought that when replying to an email the
> reply should appear above the original quoted text.  I have started
> to notice that other people such as yourself do the opposite - put
> the reply text below the original message.

This observation is not 100 % accurate. The reply text is not put simply
below the original message, but the original quoted text is
interspersed with the reply text. Additionally, parts of the original
text which are not relevant for the reply are removed. In my
experience, almost everybody in the OpenSource world uses this style.

I think the main reason for the other style (full quote of the original
message below the reply) is that some email clients used in the
corporate world (e.g. Microsoft Outlook or Lotus Notes) make it
extremely hard or even impossible to use the interspersed style. This
is why, again in my experience, this style appears to be very common in
the corporate world. My assumption is that this style is preferred in
the corporate world because it matches very closely how replying works
with paper mail.

On the KDE mailing lists we definitely prefer the interspersed style.


Regards,
Ingo


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[Bruce MacArthur-2]

On Monday 02 November 2009 04:22:03 pm djmills@... wrote:
<SNIP>
>By the way.  I had always thought that when replying to an email the
reply should appear above the original quoted text.  I have started to
notice that other people such as yourself do the opposite - put the
reply text below the original message.  You use this approach.  What can
you tell me about the 2 choices?
>
> Anyone else got a comment on this?
>
Slightly before I joined this list (and a couple of others) I was very
helpfully instructed to "bottom post" or to post "inline".  I have seen
the effects of people both following and ignoring the direction I was
given.  I now have a STRONG preference for inline or bottom posting --
precisely because it makes it easy for everyone to read comments in
their intended context.

I am confident that Ingo has correctly stated the historic origins of the
major posting styles; THAT "context" is very good to have in mind when
discussing the topic.  And Martin was absolutely correct that response
to this inquiry should NOT instigate a flame-war on posting styles!!!

'Nuff said?


Bruce   Mac Arthur
     bmacasuru@...

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[djmills]

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Hi Ingo,

I tried what you said and the empty paragraphs now appear correctly. So that is the issue.

I'll report a bug using the report wizard now.

Best regards,

David.

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On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:46:39 Ingo Klöcker wrote:

> On Monday 02 November 2009, djmills@... wrote:

> > Hi Jan,

> >

> > I did a little test. I copied one of my emails to drafts, then used

> > emacs to edit and stripped out the format "-qt-paragraph-type:empty;

> > ". Saved this and then went to the drafts folder with KMail. The

> > email still looks the same. I double checked that I had my edited

> > copy by pressing v to see the message source. I had the right one.

> > So that's not it.

>

> Try removing "margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px;".

>

>

> > Doesn't matter. openSUSE 11.2 is coming out in 9 days. I'll upgrade

> > to that and hopefully this bug will disappear.

>

> Since Jonathan is already using the latest version of KDE I wouldn't put

> too much hope into this upgrade.

>

>

> > By the way. I had always thought that when replying to an email the

> > reply should appear above the original quoted text. I have started

> > to notice that other people such as yourself do the opposite - put

> > the reply text below the original message.

>

> This observation is not 100 % accurate. The reply text is not put simply

> below the original message, but the original quoted text is

> interspersed with the reply text. Additionally, parts of the original

> text which are not relevant for the reply are removed. In my

> experience, almost everybody in the OpenSource world uses this style.

>

> I think the main reason for the other style (full quote of the original

> message below the reply) is that some email clients used in the

> corporate world (e.g. Microsoft Outlook or Lotus Notes) make it

> extremely hard or even impossible to use the interspersed style. This

> is why, again in my experience, this style appears to be very common in

> the corporate world. My assumption is that this style is preferred in

> the corporate world because it matches very closely how replying works

> with paper mail.

>

> On the KDE mailing lists we definitely prefer the interspersed style.

>

>

> Regards,

> Ingo

>

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[Anne Wilson-4]

On Monday 02 November 2009 22:22:03 djmills@... wrote:
> By the way.  I had always thought that when replying to an email the reply
>  should appear above the original quoted text.  I have started to notice
>  that other people such as yourself do the opposite - put the reply text
>  below the original message.  You use this approach.  What can you tell me
>  about the 2 choices?
>
In personal replies, top-posting is fine.  It's usually a short conversation
between you and a friend, or you and a business associate, and both of you
already know what it's about.  The quote below is simply a reminder of what
was said, if necessary.  List posting is different.

Imagine that you have had a problem that created a long thread in a list, but
eventually solved the problem for you.  Imagine then that someone next month
has the same problem and does a google search for the answer.  They are quite
likely to find a post that is in the middle of the thread.  If replies are
interspersed (best) or bottom-posted (acceptable) they can read down the whole
thing in the order it was written.  If some people top-post and others bottom-
post it becomes an unreadable mess, so doesn't help the person that needed
help.  I hope that puts it into context for you.

Anne
--
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