Kubuntu asking for input

Hellos!

As you might have heared, Kubuntu is fighting to improve itself and
the user's KDE experience [1]. To make that happen we need your input.
Since KDE is one of the primary reasons Kubuntu is existing at all, it
is all the more important that we provide a flawless KDE experience
(something that did not always work out in the past).

Anything you want to see Kubuntu do or be, what you like or don't
like, please let us know. The more input we get, the easier it gets to
draw a picture of the future of KDE in Kubuntu.

Currently we are most interested in your point of view on changes
Kubuntu does to KDE (be it changing the default settings or patching).
Within the next couple of weeks we will draft up a public patch
policy, so whatever you mention now will have influence on the future
of patching in Kubuntu.
Of course it would be best if there was no need to patch, but
sometimes it is necessary, be it to get important bug fixes in before
release or to make the software behave better in the distro
environment. So please refrain from suggesting a no-patch policy ;)

[1] http://www.kubuntu.org/news/timelord

Thank you!

regards,
Harald
 
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2009/11/3 Harald Sitter <sitter.harald@...>:
> Hellos!
>
> As you might have heared, Kubuntu is fighting to improve itself and
> the user's KDE experience [1]. To make that happen we need your input.
> Since KDE is one of the primary reasons Kubuntu is existing at all, it
> is all the more important that we provide a flawless KDE experience
> (something that did not always work out in the past).

Hey,

  I listed what I feel are the most important things, without this
trying to just be a bug dump :-)  I think you were after

1)  At every startup since 9.10, I get told that Akonadi didn't start.
 No clues about what Akonadi is, or how it will affect me.  Please
check upgrades, and check that they work without these errors.

2) Several apps crash when I shutdown the computer.  KNetworkManager
for one.  How did this get past QA?  Or is this Just Me again?

3) Language support is still broken, and has been for many releases.
It is still a lot of trouble just to get basic Japanese input.
Setting this up inside of Ubuntu for everyone shouldn't be that much
work - it's just a case of properly setting up ibus.

4) Firefox integration would be nice. Fedora switched to firefox by
default everywhere, and integrated firefox in nicely. e.g have the
proper file-open dialog.

5) Clicking on any file in the download box in firefox opens the file
in okular.  Messed up mimetype somewhere?

6) kmix by default does not show the volumes for microphones, and
somewhere their default volume to 0.  And skype doesn't fix this
automatically.  This was frustrating :-)

7) Are we getting a KDE version of Ubuntu Software Center?

8) The knetworkmanager thing is still way too complicated for typing
in a password.  On windows you have a _single_ password entry box.
That's it.  None of this faffing about with having to first select
from between 5(!) different options in the first combo box (None, WEP,
LEAP, etc) then having to chose the key type, etc..  Work with Will
Stephenson  on this and make this Just Work.

John
 
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Hi.
First of all: Great to see your project.
9.10 looks to be quite good, too. (To put my praise in context: I'm the one
responsible for the infamous Flickr set:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19616885@N00/sets/72157608562200171/ )

Regarding the patch policy:
I think that the amount of custom patches should be kept low. For example,
I've never understood, why Kubuntu ships "dumped down" version of Kate, when
KWrite is IMHO the better choice for common users.

Features should not be backported from trunk. Bugfixes are, of course, another
matter.

Despite my attitude that custom patches should be kept low, I like when a
distro has its own identity. openSUSE for example uses green "Air" graphics --
retaining SUSE's greenish look, while at the same time recognizable as KDE.

Markus
 
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Am Dienstag 03 November 2009 16:41:59 schrieb John Tapsell:

> 7) Are we getting a KDE version of Ubuntu Software Center?

As part of the initiative to work with upstreams, KPackageKit should probably
be improved with usability experiences from Software Center.
 
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On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Markus <kamikazow@...> wrote:
> First of all: Great to see your project.
> 9.10 looks to be quite good, too. (To put my praise in context: I'm the one
> responsible for the infamous Flickr set:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/19616885@N00/sets/72157608562200171/ )

I found that set particular useful for hunting down l10n issues, so
thanks for that, and thanks for the praise :)
 
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> 2009/11/3 Harald Sitter <sitter.harald@...>:
> > Hellos!
> >
> > As you might have heared, Kubuntu is fighting to improve itself and
> > the user's KDE experience [1]. To make that happen we need your input.
> > Since KDE is one of the primary reasons Kubuntu is existing at all, it
> > is all the more important that we provide a flawless KDE experience
> > (something that did not always work out in the past).
>
> Hey,
>
>   I listed what I feel are the most important things, without this
> trying to just be a bug dump :-)  I think you were after
>
> 1)  At every startup since 9.10, I get told that Akonadi didn't start.
>  No clues about what Akonadi is, or how it will affect me.  Please
> check upgrades, and check that they work without these errors.
>

Hello,

On my computer, the Akonadi issue is event worst. I get the akonadi startup
error every time I start Kontact and every time I compose a mail. I searched
the forums, glanced the bug report, but I wasn't able to fix it.

Cheers,
Valentin
 
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On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Harald Sitter <sitter.harald@...> wrote:

> Hellos!
>
> As you might have heared, Kubuntu is fighting to improve itself and
> the user's KDE experience [1]. To make that happen we need your input.
> Since KDE is one of the primary reasons Kubuntu is existing at all, it
> is all the more important that we provide a flawless KDE experience
> (something that did not always work out in the past).
>
> Anything you want to see Kubuntu do or be, what you like or don't
> like, please let us know. The more input we get, the easier it gets to
> draw a picture of the future of KDE in Kubuntu.
>
> Currently we are most interested in your point of view on changes
> Kubuntu does to KDE (be it changing the default settings or patching).
> Within the next couple of weeks we will draft up a public patch
> policy, so whatever you mention now will have influence on the future
> of patching in Kubuntu.
> Of course it would be best if there was no need to patch, but
> sometimes it is necessary, be it to get important bug fixes in before
> release or to make the software behave better in the distro
> environment. So please refrain from suggesting a no-patch policy ;)
>
> [1] http://www.kubuntu.org/news/timelord

For what it's worth, I've decided to support the Timelord project.
I've elaborated a bit more on my thoughts on the kubuntu-devel list:

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2009-November/003477.html

--
Mark Kretschmann
Amarok Developer
www.kde.org - amarok.kde.org
 
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[Will Stephenson]

On Tuesday 03 November 2009 16:41:59 John Tapsell wrote:
> 2) Several apps crash when I shutdown the computer.  KNetworkManager
> for one.  How did this get past QA?  Or is this Just Me again?


> 8) The knetworkmanager thing is still way too complicated for typing
> in a password.  On windows you have a single password entry box.
> That's it.  None of this faffing about with having to first select
> from between 5(!) different options in the first combo box (None, WEP,
> LEAP, etc) then having to chose the key type, etc..  Work with Will
> Stephenson  on this and make this Just Work.

This Timelord effort is completely out of place on this list and John's
response demonstrates why.  

In programming terms it's a layering violation - the bug that causes the
initial wireless security detection for a new connection to fail is Kubuntu-
specific because it was fixed already in trunk but was too late for Kubuntu to
include.  Instead of being discussed as an online update on kubuntu-
devel@... we have it taking up your time and mine here.

This list (and the cross-posted k-c-d) is for making KDE better for every
distribution, not for getting people to hack with to make KDE better for one
specific distribution.  How would it look if Fedora, Pardus, Mandriva and
openSUSE all started their Project Tardis, Dalek, Cyberman and whatever and
promoting them here?

This is not to say that KDE as shipped on distributions does not need
improving.  To this end I initiated what I humorously term a 'cross-
distribution KDE conspiracy' a couple of weeks ago to get distributions
talking together and coordinating our contributions to KDE.   Distribution
people have been contacted and we've started meeting.  This would fix things
we need like networking, multiple displays, a web 2.0-capable Konq, a
Pulseaudio-capable mixer, a PolKit-kde that works with current Polkit, that no
one KDE distribution team has the manpower to fix on their own (except maybe
Pardus because they're supermen ;)) so we all benefit instead of siphoning off
core KDE efforts to one distro's advantage.

Sourly,

Will Stephenson
 
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On Tuesday 03 November 2009 16:11:11 Harald Sitter wrote:
> Of course it would be best if there was no need to patch, but
> sometimes it is necessary, be it to get important bug fixes in before
> release or to make the software behave better in the distro
> environment. So please refrain from suggesting a no-patch policy ;)

The single most annoying thing for me is when distros backport stuff behind the back
of developers. That was the case for the networkmanager plasmoid in Kubuntu 9.04, and
it was a total disaster. The thing was (is!) far from finished, it didn't work in
many cases, didn't have any QA, had debug crap in its UI, and so on. When I asked why
people didn't consult me, or Will before backporting and releasing it, the answer was
"you would've said no anyway". Well d'oh. Just as an example.

Please make sure this kind of screw-ups won't happen again.
--
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9
 
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> Hellos!
>
> As you might have heared, Kubuntu is fighting to improve itself and
> the user's KDE experience [1]. To make that happen we need your input.
> Since KDE is one of the primary reasons Kubuntu is existing at all, it
> is all the more important that we provide a flawless KDE experience
> (something that did not always work out in the past).
>
> Anything you want to see Kubuntu do or be, what you like or don't
> like, please let us know. The more input we get, the easier it gets to
> draw a picture of the future of KDE in Kubuntu.
>
> Currently we are most interested in your point of view on changes
> Kubuntu does to KDE (be it changing the default settings or patching).
> Within the next couple of weeks we will draft up a public patch
> policy, so whatever you mention now will have influence on the future
> of patching in Kubuntu.
> Of course it would be best if there was no need to patch, but
> sometimes it is necessary, be it to get important bug fixes in before
> release or to make the software behave better in the distro
> environment. So please refrain from suggesting a no-patch policy ;)
>
> [1] http://www.kubuntu.org/news/timelord
>
> Thank you!
>
> regards,
> Harald

1. KPackageKit doesn't display the community "Popularity" which was
there in Add/Remove Programs in Ubuntu. Please add that.
2. Include KDE Partition Manager and File Sharing KCM Module (the one
which appears in the advanced tab of system settings) by default (or
anything that lets me share files using samba - something which
doesn't work out of the box right now)

Regards
--
Shantanu Tushar    (UTC +0530)
http://www.shantanutushar.com
 
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[Martin Gräßlin]

Am Dienstag 03 November 2009 16:11:11 schrieb Harald Sitter:

> Hellos!
>
> As you might have heared, Kubuntu is fighting to improve itself and
> the user's KDE experience [1]. To make that happen we need your input.
> Since KDE is one of the primary reasons Kubuntu is existing at all, it
> is all the more important that we provide a flawless KDE experience
> (something that did not always work out in the past).
>
> Anything you want to see Kubuntu do or be, what you like or don't
> like, please let us know. The more input we get, the easier it gets to
> draw a picture of the future of KDE in Kubuntu.
>
> Currently we are most interested in your point of view on changes
> Kubuntu does to KDE (be it changing the default settings or patching).

Well as I just switched from Kubuntu to Debian, I think I can help by naming

the most important reasons why I switched:
1. Translations: nothing to add - if you get rid of Rosetta I'm confident that
there will be a good translated 10.04 release. Although it improved in Karmic
it's nothing I would install on my parents' computer.

2. Shipping unfinished software: sebas said everything which has to be
mentioned ;-)

3. Patching: it's really difficult to find the patches Kubuntu applies. I tried
to look for all patches to kwin and it was painfull (I found one patch and it
got removed). While bazaar might be nice for you because of the launchpad
integration it's definately not helping in getting more developers. That seems
to me like a general problem with the Ubuntu landscape (compare Rosetta).

There are also some changes in the default settings which are difficult to
track. Here I would ask: why change the default? If KDE's default is
improvable contact your upstream. In any case if you have a patch or a change
to the default settings: just contact the responsible KDE team. In best case
they will accept the patch, in worst case they will tell you why it is a bad
idea.

4. Ayatana: I really, really dislike the changes done to Kubuntu Karmic due to
Ayatana. It is sad that it is completely developed ignoring the community and
it is sad that developer power is wasted by developing a system which is not
upstreamable and that is known to the developer of the system. The way how
Canonical tried to push their changes upstream were suboptimal. To me it
looked like Canonical thought that if they send in patch after patch it will
be accepted. So here I see potential to improve the communication, but that's
more Canonical than Kubuntu.  And that brings us back to patching. Many
applications have been patched to support yet another messaging system aka
MessageIndicator. Review requests like "This patch has been in use during
Kubuntu Karmic development and is now deployed with Kubuntu Karmic version"
illustrate the problem. What's the advantage of having a review, if it is
already out in the wild?

5. Support: Kubuntu promises 18 month of support, but the repositories do not
contain updates. KDE 4.2.4 for jaunty is only available in the backports
repository. I do not consider a bugfix release as a backport. For intrepid KDE
4.2 was added to backports but it stopped at 4.2.2. If Kubuntu does not have
the manpower to maintain that many releases, do not provide 18 months of
support or activate your ppas by default. That is quite important as 10.04
will be an LTS release. I think you help more users if you are honest and say
we can't provide three years of support instead of having disappointed users
because there bugs don't get fixed although the fix is available in upstream
KDE.

That said I wish you good luck for your project and I hope you can get Kubuntu
on the track again.


 
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On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 6:48 PM, Martin Gräßlin <kde@...> wrote:

> 5. Support: Kubuntu promises 18 month of support, but the repositories do not
> contain updates. KDE 4.2.4 for jaunty is only available in the backports
> repository. I do not consider a bugfix release as a backport. For intrepid KDE
> 4.2 was added to backports but it stopped at 4.2.2. If Kubuntu does not have
> the manpower to maintain that many releases, do not provide 18 months of
> support or activate your ppas by default. That is quite important as 10.04
> will be an LTS release. I think you help more users if you are honest and say
> we can't provide three years of support instead of having disappointed users
> because there bugs don't get fixed although the fix is available in upstream
> KDE.

There I have good news. We are currently drafting up a specification
to present to the Ubuntu technical board that will allow us to push
KDE bugfix releases to the update repsoitories (the usual Ubuntu
regulations would consider stuff that goes there to be
uber-non-invasive-tiny-patch changes, that disqualified KDE updates
for -updates before). So, more KDE update love to the users!

> That said I wish you good luck for your project and I hope you can get Kubuntu
> on the track again.

Thanks :)
 
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[afiestas]

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 09:28:15 Will Stephenson wrote:

> This is not to say that KDE as shipped on distributions does not need
> improving.  To this end I initiated what I humorously term a 'cross-
> distribution KDE conspiracy' a couple of weeks ago to get distributions
> talking together and coordinating our contributions to KDE.   Distribution
> people have been contacted and we've started meeting.  This would fix
>  things we need like networking, multiple displays, a web 2.0-capable Konq,
>  a Pulseaudio-capable mixer, a PolKit-kde that works with current Polkit,
>  that no one KDE distribution team has the manpower to fix on their own
>  (except maybe Pardus because they're supermen ;)) so we all benefit
>  instead of siphoning off core KDE efforts to one distro's advantage.
>
> Sourly,
>
> Will Stephenson

This sounds like a dream, I hope that this conspiracy will have a happy ending
:)

--
Alex Fiestas
Blog: http://www.afiestas.org
Jabber: afiestaso@...
Irc: afiestas -- irc.freenode.net
Email: alex {at} eyeos.org

 
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On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 6:48 PM, Martin Gräßlin <kde@...> wrote:

> 4. Ayatana: I really, really dislike the changes done to Kubuntu Karmic due to
> Ayatana. It is sad that it is completely developed ignoring the community and
> it is sad that developer power is wasted by developing a system which is not
> upstreamable and that is known to the developer of the system. The way how
> Canonical tried to push their changes upstream were suboptimal. To me it
> looked like Canonical thought that if they send in patch after patch it will
> be accepted. So here I see potential to improve the communication, but that's
> more Canonical than Kubuntu.  And that brings us back to patching. Many
> applications have been patched to support yet another messaging system aka
> MessageIndicator. Review requests like "This patch has been in use during
> Kubuntu Karmic development and is now deployed with Kubuntu Karmic version"
> illustrate the problem. What's the advantage of having a review, if it is
> already out in the wild?

-*- ScottK hands apachelogger a cookie and asks him to answer the nice
people on kde-devel that except for the little widget we needed
because of Ubuntu patching non-KDE stuff, there's no Ayatana code
running by default in Kubuntu that isn't already in KDE svn.
 
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[Kevin Krammer]

On Wednesday, 2009-11-04, Martin Gräßlin wrote:

> 3. Patching: it's really difficult to find the patches Kubuntu applies. I
>  tried to look for all patches to kwin and it was painfull (I found one
>  patch and it got removed). While bazaar might be nice for you because of
>  the launchpad integration it's definately not helping in getting more
>  developers. That seems to me like a general problem with the Ubuntu
>  landscape (compare Rosetta).
>
> There are also some changes in the default settings which are difficult to
> track. Here I would ask: why change the default? If KDE's default is
> improvable contact your upstream. In any case if you have a patch or a
>  change to the default settings: just contact the responsible KDE team. In
>  best case they will accept the patch, in worst case they will tell you why
>  it is a bad idea.
>
> 4. Ayatana: I really, really dislike the changes done to Kubuntu Karmic due
>  to Ayatana. It is sad that it is completely developed ignoring the
>  community and it is sad that developer power is wasted by developing a
>  system which is not upstreamable and that is known to the developer of the
>  system. The way how Canonical tried to push their changes upstream were
>  suboptimal. To me it looked like Canonical thought that if they send in
>  patch after patch it will be accepted. So here I see potential to improve
>  the communication, but that's more Canonical than Kubuntu.  And that
>  brings us back to patching. Many applications have been patched to support
>  yet another messaging system aka MessageIndicator. Review requests like
>  "This patch has been in use during Kubuntu Karmic development and is now
>  deployed with Kubuntu Karmic version" illustrate the problem. What's the
>  advantage of having a review, if it is already out in the wild?

While the two points above are annoying for as long as they happen, the good
thing is that they will end at some point.
Canonical, like many others before, is currently in an evolutionary phase
where they try to be as incompatible as possible to anyone else to leverage
their current popularity for a sort of soft vendor lock-in, e.g. getting
software explicitly packaged for Ubuntu.

We had this before: e.g. Redhat shipping a compiler that does not exist
upstream, Mandriva totally abusing the menu system so non-Mandriva packages
wouldn't show up, etc (can't remember what SuSE did, but back then we user
support people would recognize one of their users within half a sentence).

Not a fun period for the upstream project but usually resulting in a better
relationship afterwards.
My guess is that the pain period is dictated by managment people and once
their superiors understand what harm has been inflicted upon their brand for
short time benefit, they put people with better understanding into positions
of decision influence.

It is very alien to how our communities work but it is business as usual in
corporate world.

My prognosis is that about two years from now Canonical has secured a position
in the desktop linux sector which the feel comfortable about, probably
something like Red Hat has in the server sector.
At which point the will (might not but I am quite sure) help to really advance
the whole ecosystem, not just theirs.

Until then I'd consider suggestions of improvements as useful as bikeshedding,
with the additional bonus of creating really nice flamewars for boring
weekends.

Cheers,
Kevin

--
Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer
KDE user support, developer mentoring


 
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[Jonathan Riddell-2]

On Wed, Nov 04, 2009 at 12:48:53PM +0100, Sebastian K?gler wrote:

> On Tuesday 03 November 2009 16:11:11 Harald Sitter wrote:
> > Of course it would be best if there was no need to patch, but
> > sometimes it is necessary, be it to get important bug fixes in before
> > release or to make the software behave better in the distro
> > environment. So please refrain from suggesting a no-patch policy ;)
>
> The single most annoying thing for me is when distros backport stuff behind the back
> of developers. That was the case for the networkmanager plasmoid in Kubuntu 9.04, and
> it was a total disaster. The thing was (is!) far from finished, it didn't work in
> many cases, didn't have any QA, had debug crap in its UI, and so on. When I asked why
> people didn't consult me, or Will before backporting and releasing it, the answer was
> "you would've said no anyway". Well d'oh. Just as an example.

You've said this before and it's a valid point, but at the time it was
the best KDE option and I'm quite sure the main developer was aware we
were using it (and I find it hard that you wouldn't be since you're on
our developer channel).  We could have stopped being a KDE
distribution and shipped Gnome bits, after all we ship non-free
drivers on the rationale that it allows use of the rest of the free
software we ship, but that causes notable problems too such as finding
space for it on the CD.  Fortunately we seem to be over the worst for
this case and other KDE 4 porting issues so I don't see it being a
repeat problem.

Jonathan
 
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[Jonathan Riddell-2]

On Wed, Nov 04, 2009 at 06:48:45PM +0100, Martin Gr??lin wrote:
> 3. Patching: it's really difficult to find the patches Kubuntu applies. I tried
> to look for all patches to kwin and it was painfull (I found one patch and it
> got removed). While bazaar might be nice for you because of the launchpad
> integration it's definately not helping in getting more developers. That seems
> to me like a general problem with the Ubuntu landscape (compare Rosetta).

The revision control system is really irrelevant here.  Patches are
normally available from http://patches.ubuntu.com/ and are very easy
to find (the site is currently down while the new development version
is opened).  You could also see them direct from the revision control
system at
e.g.
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Ekubuntu-members/kdemultimedia/ubuntu/files/head%3A/debian/patches/
but that's just a web interface just as KDE SVN has or SuSE build
service or whatever.

We'll be closely reviewing all patches as we start the new development
version of Kubuntu to make sure everything that can go upstream does.

> There are also some changes in the default settings which are difficult to
> track. Here I would ask: why change the default?

There's a number of reasons to change the defaults but we are mindful
to do so as little as is sensible, we do it much less now than in KDE
3 times because most of the changes have been put upstream.  I'll send
a review of our overrides from kubuntu-default-settings in the next
week or so with rationales for what's in it.

> 4. Ayatana: I really, really dislike the changes done to Kubuntu Karmic due to
> Ayatana.

Which do you object to?  The freedesktop.org visual notification
changes have been merged into 4.4.  There was a patch to the "out of
battery" notification which was specified by the lead of KDE's
usability team but people didn't like that so we just changed it to a
longer timeout.  The other changesa are message indicator (much better
than what KDE 4.3 has, but not done as plasma team wants it
implemented) and actionless notifications (nobody seems to like this)
aren't turned on by default so would be hard to object to.

> 5. Support: Kubuntu promises 18 month of support, but the repositories do not
> contain updates.

Pay Canonical money and you'll get a chap at the end of a phone line
ready to support Kubuntu in 18 months time.  There are security
updates for 18 months too.  Maybe we need to be clearer that support
doesn't mean backporting KDE releases for 18 months?  (We tend to only
do that for the previous release.)

Jonathan
 
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