Large fixed-width text

[Bruce Momjian-5]

When reading our web-based server documentation in Ubuntu Firefox, I
have always seen overly-large fixed-width text.  In looking at our CSS
files, specifically text.css, I see:

        #txtArchives pre {
                font-size:150%;
        }
        #txtArchives tt {
                font-size:150%;
        }

This certainly looks wrong, and explains what I am seeing.  Does anyone
know why it is there?

The actual code that is causing a problem in my browser is in
geckofixes.css:

        #docContainer tt, #docContainer pre, #docContainer code {
                font-size:1.4em;
        }

and below it is this contradicting code for multi-tag content:

        #docContainer tt tt, #docContainer tt code, #docContainer tt pre {
          font-size: 1.0em;
        }
       
        #docContainer pre code, #docContainer pre tt, #docContainer pre pre {
          font-size: 1.0em;
        }
       
        #docContainer code code, #docContainer code tt, #docContainer code pre {
          font-size: 1.0em;
        }

Again, why is it there.  There are no comments indicating its purpose,
and it is clearly causing problems on my Firefox/Ubuntu setup.

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  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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[Petr Jelinek-3]

Bruce Momjian wrote:

> When reading our web-based server documentation in Ubuntu Firefox, I
> have always seen overly-large fixed-width text.  In looking at our CSS
> files, specifically text.css, I see:
>
> #txtArchives pre {
> font-size:150%;
> }
> #txtArchives tt {
> font-size:150%;
> }
>
> This certainly looks wrong, and explains what I am seeing.  Does anyone
> know why it is there?
>
> The actual code that is causing a problem in my browser is in
> geckofixes.css:
>
> #docContainer tt, #docContainer pre, #docContainer code {
> font-size:1.4em;
> }
>  

I am not on www team but I bet it's because with 1em (100%) the text is
tiny in Firefox under Windows in those elements.

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Petr Jelinek (PJMODOS)


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[Bruce Momjian-5]

Petr Jelinek wrote:

> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > When reading our web-based server documentation in Ubuntu Firefox, I
> > have always seen overly-large fixed-width text.  In looking at our CSS
> > files, specifically text.css, I see:
> >
> > #txtArchives pre {
> > font-size:150%;
> > }
> > #txtArchives tt {
> > font-size:150%;
> > }
> >
> > This certainly looks wrong, and explains what I am seeing.  Does anyone
> > know why it is there?
> >
> > The actual code that is causing a problem in my browser is in
> > geckofixes.css:
> >
> > #docContainer tt, #docContainer pre, #docContainer code {
> > font-size:1.4em;
> > }
> >  
>
> I am not on www team but I bet it's because with 1em (100%) the text is
> tiny in Firefox under Windows in those elements.

So why is that?  Is this a known bug in Firefox?  Is it documented?  Can
we apply the fix only to broken Firefox versions?  The lack of comments
in the CSS file makes this issue unclear to me.

--
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@...>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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[Dave Page-7]

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 8:21 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@...> wrote:
>> I am not on www team but I bet it's because with 1em (100%) the text is
>> tiny in Firefox under Windows in those elements.
>
> So why is that?  Is this a known bug in Firefox?  Is it documented?  Can
> we apply the fix only to broken Firefox versions?  The lack of comments
> in the CSS file makes this issue unclear to me.

I believe it's s targeted as practical - that's why it's in geckofixes.css.

As for the lack of comments, yes, that is a pain. That's what we got
from the original designers. Unfortunately the CSS is complex, and I
don't thank any of us really know the purpose of all of it. It would
take some time to thoroughly review and document, and I doubt you'll
find anyone with the time or inclination.

FYI, the sizing looks fine to me on FF 3.5.3 on Mac and 3.0.4 on CentOS 5.

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[Petr Jelinek-3]

Bruce Momjian napsal(a):

Petr Jelinek wrote:
  

Bruce Momjian wrote:
    

When reading our web-based server documentation in Ubuntu Firefox, I
have always seen overly-large fixed-width text.  In looking at our CSS
files, specifically text.css, I see:

	#txtArchives pre {
		font-size:150%;
	}
	#txtArchives tt {
		font-size:150%;
	}

This certainly looks wrong, and explains what I am seeing.  Does anyone
know why it is there?

The actual code that is causing a problem in my browser is in
geckofixes.css:

	#docContainer tt, #docContainer pre, #docContainer code {
		font-size:1.4em;
	}
  
      

I am not on www team but I bet it's because with 1em (100%) the text is 
tiny in Firefox under Windows in those elements.
    

So why is that?  Is this a known bug in Firefox?  Is it documented?  Can
we apply the fix only to broken Firefox versions?  The lack of comments
in the CSS file makes this issue unclear to me.
  

It's known behavior, not a bug.
By default FF on Windows (not sure about other OSes, but on Jaunty my FF does it too), Safari, Chrome all choose 13px font size for monospace and 16px for everything else (so maybe you changed default font size for monospaced fonts in your FF?). And since we have 76% (docs) and 69% (primary web) body font sizes, they get inherited and monospace text is too small (76% of those default 13px) and obvious fix is to make it larger and that's what we do. There are other ways to fix this. One is specifying exact font family and not monospace generic font family, but that changes font for people who have different default monospace font from what we choose and also since we are not using the monospace generic font family (see why below), people who don't have any of the fonts we specify the won't have monospaced text at all in those elements.
There is also Firefox specific "fix" for this (very ugly):

font-family : monospace, "";

And remove all those font-size hacks. One more way to fix it in Firefox (3.0+) is to use font-size-adjust : 0.58 for pre, tt, code. Other browsers don't support this propery.
So the real problem is Safari (Webkit). It switches to smaller font size once you specify monospace generic font family anywhere in the font-family property and it does not support font-size-adjust.
Opera does it differently, it just uses internal default stylesheet to make font-size smaller (0.81em IIRC) for those elements that are monospaced by default (pre, tt, ...) so setting font-size : 1em is enough there. IE seems to do something similar since it behaves the same, so no problem in either of those two.

As you can see every browser does something different and finding universal solution is not easy.

Anyway those #txtArchives pre and #txtArchives tt do not affect documentation but they indeed seem to be plain wrong, they are actually only used by Opera (and maybe Chrome , I don't have that browser) and the text looks huge there. In FF and Safari they are overwritten by

#pgContainer code, #pgContainer pre, #pgContainer tt {
  font-size: 1.2em;
}

in geckofixes.css (yes it loads for Safari too on my machine and it's a good thing) and in IE they're overwritten by

* html #txtArchives pre { font-size: 100%; }

in iefixes.css.

[Dave Page-7]

2009/9/27 Petr Jelinek <pjmodos@...>:

> It's known behavior, not a bug.
> By default FF on Windows (not sure about other OSes, but on Jaunty my FF
> does it too), Safari, Chrome all choose 13px font size for monospace and
> 16px for everything else (so maybe you changed default font size for
> monospaced fonts in your FF?). And since we have 76% (docs) and 69% (primary
> web) body font sizes, they get inherited and monospace text is too small
> (76% of those default 13px) and obvious fix is to make it larger and that's
> what we do. There are other ways to fix this. One is specifying exact font
> family and not monospace generic font family, but that changes font for
> people who have different default monospace font from what we choose and
> also since we are not using the monospace generic font family (see why
> below), people who don't have any of the fonts we specify the won't have
> monospaced text at all in those elements.
> There is also Firefox specific "fix" for this (very ugly):
>
> font-family : monospace, "";
>
> And remove all those font-size hacks. One more way to fix it in Firefox
> (3.0+) is to use font-size-adjust : 0.58 for pre, tt, code. Other browsers
> don't support this propery.
> So the real problem is Safari (Webkit). It switches to smaller font size
> once you specify monospace generic font family anywhere in the font-family
> property and it does not support font-size-adjust.
> Opera does it differently, it just uses internal default stylesheet to make
> font-size smaller (0.81em IIRC) for those elements that are monospaced by
> default (pre, tt, ...) so setting font-size : 1em is enough there. IE seems
> to do something similar since it behaves the same, so no problem in either
> of those two.
>
> As you can see every browser does something different and finding universal
> solution is not easy.

It almost sounds like you're volunteering to be our new in-house CSS
expert Petr :-)

> Anyway those #txtArchives pre and #txtArchives tt do not affect
> documentation but they indeed seem to be plain wrong, they are actually only
> used by Opera (and maybe Chrome , I don't have that browser) and the text
> looks huge there. In FF and Safari they are overwritten by
>
> #pgContainer code, #pgContainer pre, #pgContainer tt {
>   font-size: 1.2em;
> }
>
> in geckofixes.css (yes it loads for Safari too on my machine and it's a good
> thing) and in IE they're overwritten by
>
> * html #txtArchives pre { font-size: 100%; }
>
> in iefixes.css.

txtArchives is used by archives.postgresql.org, not the docs.


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[Petr Jelinek-3]

Dave Page napsal(a):

Anyway those #txtArchives pre and #txtArchives tt do not affect
documentation but they indeed seem to be plain wrong, they are actually only
used by Opera (and maybe Chrome , I don't have that browser) and the text
looks huge there. In FF and Safari they are overwritten by

#pgContainer code, #pgContainer pre, #pgContainer tt {
  font-size: 1.2em;
}

in geckofixes.css (yes it loads for Safari too on my machine and it's a good
thing) and in IE they're overwritten by

* html #txtArchives pre { font-size: 100%; }

in iefixes.css.
    

txtArchives is used by archives.postgresql.org, not the docs.
  

Cite from the first sentence: *Anyway those #txtArchives pre and #txtArchives tt do not affect
documentation*

[Dave Page-7]

On 9/27/09, Petr Jelinek <pjmodos@...> wrote:

> Dave Page napsal(a):
>>> Anyway those #txtArchives pre and #txtArchives tt do not affect
>>> documentation but they indeed seem to be plain wrong, they are actually
>>> only
>>> used by Opera (and maybe Chrome , I don't have that browser) and the text
>>> looks huge there. In FF and Safari they are overwritten by
>>>
>>> #pgContainer code, #pgContainer pre, #pgContainer tt {
>>>   font-size: 1.2em;
>>> }
>>>
>>> in geckofixes.css (yes it loads for Safari too on my machine and it's a
>>> good
>>> thing) and in IE they're overwritten by
>>>
>>> * html #txtArchives pre { font-size: 100%; }
>>>
>>> in iefixes.css.
>>>
>>
>> txtArchives is used by archives.postgresql.org, not the docs.
>>
>
> Cite from the first sentence: *Anyway those #txtArchives pre and
> #txtArchives tt do not affect
> documentation*
>

Yes, i did read what you wrote. I was pointing out what they do affect.

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[Petr Jelinek-3]

Dave Page napsal(a):

On 9/27/09, Petr Jelinek pjmodos@... wrote:
  

Dave Page napsal(a):
    

Anyway those #txtArchives pre and #txtArchives tt do not affect
documentation but they indeed seem to be plain wrong, they are actually
only
used by Opera (and maybe Chrome , I don't have that browser) and the text
looks huge there. In FF and Safari they are overwritten by

#pgContainer code, #pgContainer pre, #pgContainer tt {
  font-size: 1.2em;
}

in geckofixes.css (yes it loads for Safari too on my machine and it's a
good
thing) and in IE they're overwritten by

* html #txtArchives pre { font-size: 100%; }

in iefixes.css.

        

txtArchives is used by archives.postgresql.org, not the docs.

      

Cite from the first sentence: *Anyway those #txtArchives pre and
#txtArchives tt do not affect
documentation*

    

Yes, i did read what you wrote. I was pointing out what they do affect.
  

Oh, ok, I know they affect mail body in archives and all I said is true - they are overwritten by other rules in most browsers and the text is huge in browsers where they're not overwritten. I think better default would be 120%, it may still look big somewhere but not as big as it does now and it compensates for that monospace vs normal font default size.

[Magnus Hagander-2]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 07:33, Petr Jelinek <pjmodos@...> wrote:

> Dave Page napsal(a):
>
> On 9/27/09, Petr Jelinek <pjmodos@...> wrote:
>
>
> Dave Page napsal(a):
>
>
> Anyway those #txtArchives pre and #txtArchives tt do not affect
> documentation but they indeed seem to be plain wrong, they are actually
> only
> used by Opera (and maybe Chrome , I don't have that browser) and the text
> looks huge there. In FF and Safari they are overwritten by
>
> #pgContainer code, #pgContainer pre, #pgContainer tt {
>   font-size: 1.2em;
> }
>
> in geckofixes.css (yes it loads for Safari too on my machine and it's a
> good
> thing) and in IE they're overwritten by
>
> * html #txtArchives pre { font-size: 100%; }
>
> in iefixes.css.
>
>
>
> txtArchives is used by archives.postgresql.org, not the docs.
>
>
>
> Cite from the first sentence: *Anyway those #txtArchives pre and
> #txtArchives tt do not affect
> documentation*
>
>
>
> Yes, i did read what you wrote. I was pointing out what they do affect.
>
>
> Oh, ok, I know they affect mail body in archives and all I said is true -
> they are overwritten by other rules in most browsers and the text is huge in
> browsers where they're not overwritten. I think better default would be
> 120%, it may still look big somewhere but not as big as it does now and it
> compensates for that monospace vs normal font default size.

Just to take this off on a slight tangent... You seem pretty
well-versed in CSS, right? ;) Any chance we can convince you to try to
do some cleanup work on our CSS, structuring it nicer and also getting
some comments in there so us mere mortals can understand it? That
would be a *very* welcome piece of help!

If you are, please contact me off-list before you start actually
working, I have some partial pieces of work you'll be interested in
:-)


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 Me: http://www.hagander.net/
 Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

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[Bruce Momjian-5]

Petr Jelinek wrote:

> >>> The actual code that is causing a problem in my browser is in
> >>> geckofixes.css:
> >>>
> >>> #docContainer tt, #docContainer pre, #docContainer code {
> >>> font-size:1.4em;
> >>> }
> >>>  
> >>>      
> >> I am not on www team but I bet it's because with 1em (100%) the text is
> >> tiny in Firefox under Windows in those elements.
> >>    
> >
> > So why is that?  Is this a known bug in Firefox?  Is it documented?  Can
> > we apply the fix only to broken Firefox versions?  The lack of comments
> > in the CSS file makes this issue unclear to me.
> >  
>
> It's known behavior, not a bug.
> By default FF on Windows (not sure about other OSes, but on Jaunty my FF
> does it too), Safari, Chrome all choose 13px font size for monospace and
> 16px for everything else (so maybe you changed default font size for
> monospaced fonts in your FF?). And since we have 76% (docs) and 69%

Yes, I did change my default font sizes in Firefox, which explains why
most people are not seeing the problem.

--
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  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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[Bruce Momjian-5]

Magnus Hagander wrote:

> > Oh, ok, I know they affect mail body in archives and all I said is true -
> > they are overwritten by other rules in most browsers and the text is huge in
> > browsers where they're not overwritten. I think better default would be
> > 120%, it may still look big somewhere but not as big as it does now and it
> > compensates for that monospace vs normal font default size.
>
> Just to take this off on a slight tangent... You seem pretty
> well-versed in CSS, right? ;) Any chance we can convince you to try to
> do some cleanup work on our CSS, structuring it nicer and also getting
> some comments in there so us mere mortals can understand it? That
> would be a *very* welcome piece of help!
>
> If you are, please contact me off-list before you start actually
> working, I have some partial pieces of work you'll be interested in
> :-)

Yes, please.  I just finished reading a book about CSS so I understand
the syntax, but obviously not the historical quirks.  I would like to be
involved as well.

--
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@...>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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