Lightweight pistons!

[Guy Hockley]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lVCC9aDALT4/SqBS-jKtzRI/AAAAAAAAIfw/8AQl9_d5TK4/s1600-h/IMG_0973.JPG

[marshengnz]

What are they from ?



--- In mc-engine@..., "Guy" <guy.hockley@...> wrote:
>
>
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lVCC9aDALT4/SqBS-jKtzRI/AAAAAAAAIfw/8AQl9_d5TK4/s1600-h/IMG_0973.JPG
>

[Ava Pxia]

A Turbo Diesel race truck?

--- In mc-engine@..., "marshengnz" <helen.wallace@...> wrote:

>
> What are they from ?
>
>
>
> --- In mc-engine@..., "Guy" <guy.hockley@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lVCC9aDALT4/SqBS-jKtzRI/AAAAAAAAIfw/8AQl9_d5TK4/s1600-h/IMG_0973.JPG
> >
>

[Grog]

They are from "SuperKim" a 1925 supercharged Zenith Jap record attempt bike found in Argentina.
The bore and stroke of this monster are 94.9x120mm, giving a capacity of 1700cc

Check this site for some more pics and info on this amazing machine!
Make sure you scroll right through that page and perhaps earlier pages for the whole set of episodes.
http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/

I loooove JAP V twins .... in fact I am building two 8/80 racing engines from scratch right now...almost done, they should fire up later this month, with luck.
Greg


--- In mc-engine@..., "marshengnz" <helen.wallace@...> wrote:

>
> What are they from ?
>
>
>
> --- In mc-engine@..., "Guy" <guy.hockley@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lVCC9aDALT4/SqBS-jKtzRI/AAAAAAAAIfw/8AQl9_d5TK4/s1600-h/IMG_0973.JPG
> >
>

[Ken Augustine]

I'd be surprised at a diesel as there is no oil control ring and with no or at least minimal oil control, a diesel is sure to run away.   The only Infernal Combustification engines I have ever seen without oil control rings are speedway engines and they usually run on alcohol so the compression ratio is higher than would be indicated with this dome.   The only engines I have ever seen with domes even vaguely similar to this are Matchless twins like the G-9 and G-11.   I have never seen a G-9 piston but the G-11 has a similar shaped  dome bulge although it exists only above the top deck edge and I have never noticed a lack of oil control ring in G-11 pistons I have seen.   I wouldn't be surprised if these pistons are from a compressor of some sort as they usually don't  have oil control rings.

Ken A




________________________________
From: zerogara <avapxia@...>
To: mc-engine@...
Sent: Thu, October 8, 2009 3:10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Lightweight pistons!

 

A Turbo Diesel race truck?

--- In mc-engine@yahoogrou ps.com, "marshengnz" <helen.wallace@ ...> wrote:

>
> What are they from ?
>
>
>
> --- In mc-engine@yahoogrou ps.com, "Guy" <guy.hockley@ > wrote:
> >
> >
> > http://2.bp. blogspot. com/_lVCC9aDALT4 /SqBS-jKtzRI/ AAAAAAAAIfw/ 8AQl9_d5TK4/ s1600-h/IMG_ 0973.JPG
> >
>

   


     

[Ken Augustine]

Bravo !   Is this a limited production engine or a one off special?

Ken A




________________________________
From: gregsummerton <gregss@...>
To: mc-engine@...
Sent: Thu, October 8, 2009 5:57:50 AM
Subject: Re: Lightweight pistons!

 


They are from "SuperKim" a 1925 supercharged Zenith Jap record attempt bike found in Argentina.
The bore and stroke of this monster are 94.9x120mm, giving a capacity of 1700cc

Check this site for some more pics and info on this amazing machine!
Make sure you scroll right through that page and perhaps earlier pages for the whole set of episodes.
http://thevintagent .blogspot. com/

I loooove JAP V twins .... in fact I am building two 8/80 racing engines from scratch right now...almost done, they should fire up later this month, with luck.
Greg

--- In mc-engine@yahoogrou ps.com, "marshengnz" <helen.wallace@ ...> wrote:

>
> What are they from ?
>
>
>
> --- In mc-engine@yahoogrou ps.com, "Guy" <guy.hockley@ > wrote:
> >
> >
> > http://2.bp. blogspot. com/_lVCC9aDALT4 /SqBS-jKtzRI/ AAAAAAAAIfw/ 8AQl9_d5TK4/ s1600-h/IMG_ 0973.JPG
> >
>

   


     

[Ian D-2]

>The only engines I have ever seen with domes even vaguely similar to
>this are Matchless twins like the G-9 and G-11.



I had cause to watch "World's Fastest Indian" again recently
( 6 or 7th time ? ) and found it a joy ( again ), the 2 parts Chev /
1 part Ford piston casting scene is priceless.


Cheers             IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

[Michael Moore-3]

Greg, have you checked out Wilfried's site recently to see if he's made
any more JAP engine components for his Brough?

http://www.brufnut.de/main.htm

I see some stuff for an Enfield cush drive rear hub project that I don't
think was on the site the last time.  There's also a nice page with him
documenting making some Lucas "tank top" switch shells from brass
sheet that he spins into shape.

There's also a page with talks about him making cams for a 680 JAP
engine.  He made the lobes from EN36 with a CNC mill.

cheers,
Michael

[Michael T. Kasimirsky]

Don't forget the making of tea from his "quench pot" full of water.   Mmmm
mmmm good!
 
 

 


>The only engines I have ever seen with domes even vaguely similar to
>this are Matchless twins like the G-9 and G-11.

I had cause to watch "World's Fastest Indian" again recently
( 6 or 7th time ? ) and found it a joy ( again ), the 2 parts Chev /
1 part Ford piston casting scene is priceless.

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler






__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4490 (20091008) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

[Grog]

No Michael, but I probably will soon as I would love to build one of those earlier head models, same bottom ends more or less, might be able to do a deal.

I fell in love with Super Kim.
I've got a 1930 pic of Joe Wright sitting on the blown OEC JAP just above me as I type. I've had this urge to build, one day, a blown JAP replica and take it up to the salt.
Silly, but then being silly is part of life's pleasure.

In the meantime I have enough work to do to finish off the current build of two replica racing model 8/80 JAP engines for customers....and there is at least a couple of guys waiting for the next batch.
Cheers,
Greg

--- In mc-engine@..., "Michael Moore" <mmoore@...> wrote:

>
> Greg, have you checked out Wilfried's site recently to see if he's made
> any more JAP engine components for his Brough?
>
> http://www.brufnut.de/main.htm
>
> I see some stuff for an Enfield cush drive rear hub project that I don't
> think was on the site the last time.  There's also a nice page with him
> documenting making some Lucas "tank top" switch shells from brass
> sheet that he spins into shape.
>
> There's also a page with talks about him making cams for a 680 JAP
> engine.  He made the lobes from EN36 with a CNC mill.
>
> cheers,
> Michael
>

[Grog]

Not sure which bike/engine you were referring to Ken, but I believe Super Kim was a prodution Zenith, subsequently modified  extensively (prewar)for record breaking....the Vintagent website would have the answer....I've forgotten already.

As for the JAPs I am building, hopefully they will be limited production. Making two right now and have strong interest for several more, one of them being a verbal order. But I need to review the pricing and what I may farm out instead of being an in-house anal-idiot like I was with the first two....by making everything myself they have taken far too long.

However, now that the drawings have been proven I can confidently farm out bits for others to build. Others with more suitable equipment that is, which should bring the cost down and even though it will reduce the amount I am earning on each one, the turn over and hourly rate for me should improve, with luck.
That is the theory.

Quite a project it has been. I managed to teach myself AutoCAD and learn a lot of metalurgy and machining techniques as I went....as well as finding contacts and sources for future use.
My past life as an electronics engineer is well dead and buried!

THe best thing about JAPs is that the bottom end layout and many of the components was the same, more or less, from the early 20s right through unitl the end came after the war.
I have Mk2 big fin head castings available for a run of these last models but I'd love to build the exposed pushrod cast iron head models of the 20s-early 30s some time....if I live long enough.

Cheers,
Greg



--- In mc-engine@..., Ken Augustine <kineticanalysis@...> wrote:

>
> Bravo !   Is this a limited production engine or a one off special?
>
> Ken A
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: gregsummerton <gregss@...>
> To: mc-engine@...
> Sent: Thu, October 8, 2009 5:57:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Lightweight pistons!
>
>  
>
>
> They are from "SuperKim" a 1925 supercharged Zenith Jap record attempt bike found in Argentina.
> The bore and stroke of this monster are 94.9x120mm, giving a capacity of 1700cc
>
> Check this site for some more pics and info on this amazing machine!
> Make sure you scroll right through that page and perhaps earlier pages for the whole set of episodes.
> http://thevintagent .blogspot. com/
>
> I loooove JAP V twins .... in fact I am building two 8/80 racing engines from scratch right now...almost done, they should fire up later this month, with luck.
> Greg
>
> --- In mc-engine@yahoogrou ps.com, "marshengnz" <helen.wallace@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > What are they from ?
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In mc-engine@yahoogrou ps.com, "Guy" <guy.hockley@ > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > http://2.bp. blogspot. com/_lVCC9aDALT4 /SqBS-jKtzRI/ AAAAAAAAIfw/ 8AQl9_d5TK4/ s1600-h/IMG_ 0973.JPG
> > >
> >
>

[Grog]

--- In mc-engine@..., "Michael T. Kasimirsky" <mkasimirsky@...> wrote:
>
> Don't forget the making of tea from his "quench pot" full of water.   Mmmm
> mmmm good!

I've threatened to make tea from the water quenching bucket near the wleding bench from time to time but none of my visitors seemed too keen.

But I've often idly wondered about the 'dissolved' aluminium in water and food heated in aluminium saucepans and billys and how significant it might be to alzheimers and the like....but Bert didn't seem to have too many brain problems, except that he was a nutter right from the start...ha! Maybe his Mum used aluminium pots?

My mum cooked in ally saucepans, so maybe......

Greg

[Grog]

I suppose they wanted low comp ratio to go with the supercharging and I guess the piston metalurgy wasn't all that advanced enough at the time so rather than a flt topped piston they thought that some sort of (sunken) dome would be stronger?

Can't see any other reason for the funny shape.



--- In mc-engine@..., Ken Augustine <kineticanalysis@...> wrote:
>
> I'd be surprised at a diesel as there is no oil control ring and with no or at least minimal oil control, a diesel is sure to run away.   The only Infernal Combustification engines I have ever seen without oil control rings are speedway engines and they usually run on alcohol so the compression ratio is higher than would be indicated with this dome.   The only engines I have ever seen with domes even vaguely similar to this are Matchless twins like the G-9 and G-11.   I have never seen a G-9 piston but the G-11 has a similar shaped  dome bulge although it exists only above the top deck edge and I have never noticed a lack of oil control ring in G-11 pistons I have seen.   I wouldn't be surprised if these pistons are from a compressor of some sort as they usually don't  have oil control rings.
>
> Ken A
>
>

[RohanB-3]

>>>The only Infernal Combustification engines I have ever seen without oil
control rings are speedway engines and they usually run on alcohol so the
compression ratio is higher than would be indicated with this dome.  

-----------------

Oil control rings only appeared on engines in the 1920s or early 1930s,
when recirculating oiling systems came into use. (?).  

Constant loss oiling systems don't need oil control rings - the oil is
dribbled or drobbled into the crankcase in the expectation that it will be
burned up or blown out.

The above certainly applies to motorcycles for at least 40 years, no idea
what happens in early airplanes or ships or stuff...

Opethiselps.

[Ken Augustine]

Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong,
Under the shade of a coolibah tree.
He sang and he watched and waited 'til his billy boiled,
"You'll come a-waltzing, Matilda, with me."
Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda,
You'll come a-waltzing, Matilda, with me.
He sang and he watched and waited 'til his billy boiled,
"You'll come a-waltzing, Matilda, with me."



I've often idly wondered about the 'dissolved' aluminium in water and food heated in aluminium saucepans and billys and how significant it might be to alzheimers and the like....but Bert didn't seem to have too many brain problems, except that he was a nutter right from the start...ha! Maybe his Mum used aluminium pots?

 

   


     

[RohanB-3]

>>>
In the meantime I have enough work to do to finish off the current build of
two replica racing model 8/80 JAP engines for customers...

-----------

Did you know Bob Jolley ??
Was just in the hills above Adelaide.
He did quite a few 8/80 motors for folks.

[RohanB-3]

Harley and Indian and Excelsior etc iron pistons of the era (mid 20s) had
some big oles in them too, supposedly for lightening - but more arty than
reality. Will find some for a pic...

P.S. Iron pistons are lighter than they sound, they are extremely thin...

hth.

----------
>>>
From: Guy <guy.hockley@...>
To: mc-engine@...
Subject: Lightweight pistons!
Date: Thursday, October 08, 2009 4:43 AM


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lVCC9aDALT4/SqBS-jKtzRI/AAAAAAAAIfw/8AQl9_d5TK4/s1
600-h/IMG_0973.JPG

[RohanB-3]

Billy for tea is made of tin.....

----------
>>>
From: Ken Augustine <kineticanalysis@...>
To: mc-engine@...
Subject: Re: Lightweight pistons!
Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009 9:51 AM

Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong,
Under the shade of a coolibah tree.
He sang and he watched and waited 'til his billy boiled,
"You'll come a-waltzing, Matilda, with me."
Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda,
You'll come a-waltzing, Matilda, with me.
He sang and he watched and waited 'til his billy boiled,
"You'll come a-waltzing, Matilda, with me."



I've often idly wondered about the 'dissolved' aluminium in water and food
heated in aluminium saucepans and billys and how significant it might be to
alzheimers and the like....but Bert didn't seem to have too many brain
problems, except that he was a nutter right from the start...ha! Maybe his
Mum used aluminium pots?

 

   


     

[Grog]

Probably were in the older days, but my two, and my Grandad's old one were ally, still got them.
That's why I wondered......


--- In mc-engine@..., "RohanB" <newboltz333@...> wrote:
>
> Billy for tea is made of tin.....
>
>

[Grog]

> >>>The only Infernal Combustification engines I have ever seen without oil
> control rings are speedway engines and they usually run on alcohol so the
> compression ratio is higher than would be indicated with this dome.  
>
> -----------------
>
> Oil control rings only appeared on engines in the 1920s or early 1930s,
> when recirculating oiling systems came into use. (?).  
>
> Constant loss oiling systems don't need oil control rings - the oil is
> dribbled or drobbled into the crankcase in the expectation that it will be
> burned up or blown out.
>
> The above certainly applies to motorcycles for at least 40 years, no idea
> what happens in early airplanes or ships or stuff...
>
> Opethiselps.
>

Well, the bottom of the three rings on the pistons of the ESOs and Jawa 2 valver speedway engines had a reduced diameter for it's bottom third which made it effectively an oil scraper ring.

It certainly did control the oil.

When I left that ring out on an engine, because I had no scraper ring on hand, the engine smoked about 3 times as bad as it usually did...so I certainly put one in before the next meeting.

So, from my experience, while they did not look like a conventional multi-piece oil control ring, they certainly had that function, and worked quite well at it.

And for the record, the oil in those engines certainly does blow out, with some force.
For my road racer I put a block over the non-return valve outlets in the bottom of the cases and ran two 5/8" outlets into two hoses that fed directly into the top of a +600cc cylindrical catch tank under the gearbox of my road racer. From the bottom of that tank I ran a 1/4" line back up to the oil feed tank.

This has quite successfully returned the oil to the tank without any undue leakage and excessive crankcase pressure for the last 25 years of historic road racing.

I have found no need to fit complicated additional return and feed pumps, the original the system fits my creed of not fixing what aint broke and for those that have seen the machine in action over the years, they can vouch for the fact that it isn't slow.

Of course some time ago I moved on to 'proper' pistons with 3 piece oil control rings when I short stroked the engine. It did reduce the colour in the exhaust a little, but I'd already found that the biggest thing to improve the oily exhaust on those engines is to chamfer the tops of the guides to a sharp edge....the oil scraper ring did its job well enough.

Greg