List Etiquette Warning

[Earnie]

List Members,

I'm tired of the disregard for the list etiquette.  I will begin  
setting the postings to moderated for members who continue to  
disregard the etiquette.  The most grievous of these are top posting  
and mime encoded (html) postings.  In two days if I continue to see  
list members disregarding the etiquette I will flag your account for  
moderation.

I really hate having to do this but enough is enough.  We've pleaded,  
begged, and encouraged you to not do these things.  Now I must take  
action.  I will modify the mail trailer with similar text as the first  
paragraph.  And I will also modify the etiquette page to give a strong  
warning of possible moderation because of the disregard to the  
etiquette discribed.

--
Earnie
List Moderator



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A: Yes.
> Q: Is it really?
>> A: Because the logical conversation flow is disrupted.
>>> Q: Why does MinGW object to top posting?
(abstracted from Larry Hall signature)

This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) Thread hijacking
3) HTML/MIME encoded mail
4) Improper quoting
5) Improper trimming
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You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
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[Yakumo]

> List Members,
>
> I'm tired of the disregard for the list etiquette.  I
> will begin 
> setting the postings to moderated for members who continue
> to 
> disregard the etiquette.  The most grievous of these
> are top posting 
> and mime encoded (html) postings.  In two days if I
> continue to see 
> list members disregarding the etiquette I will flag your
> account for 
> moderation.
>
> I really hate having to do this but enough is enough. 
> We've pleaded, 
> begged, and encouraged you to not do these things. 
> Now I must take 
> action.  I will modify the mail trailer with similar
> text as the first 
> paragraph.  And I will also modify the etiquette page
> to give a strong 
> warning of possible moderation because of the disregard to
> the 
> etiquette discribed.
>

Sometimes being tough is the only solution.


     

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A: Yes.
> Q: Is it really?
>> A: Because the logical conversation flow is disrupted.
>>> Q: Why does MinGW object to top posting?
(abstracted from Larry Hall signature)

This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) Thread hijacking
3) HTML/MIME encoded mail
4) Improper quoting
5) Improper trimming
_______________________________________________
You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

[keithmarshall]

On Thursday 05 November 2009 18:57:40 Earnie Boyd wrote:
> I'm tired of the disregard for the list etiquette.  I will begin  
> setting the postings to moderated for members who continue to  
> disregard the etiquette.  The most grievous of these are top
> posting   and mime encoded (html) postings.  In two days if I
> continue to see list members disregarding the etiquette I will
> flag your account for moderation.

So, are you going to attend to all the moderation requests you
generate, in a timely manner?  If you don't, then they are going to
seriously hack me off.

As another moderator of the list, I too dislike top-posted messages
and HTML, but I also consider this to be a step too far.  Many will
post inappropriately out of ignorance; to most of them, I think a
more tolerant attitude, and a gentle nudge in the right direction
should suffice.  Moderation is a drastic step, which could be better
reserved for those who willfully and insolently persist, after
having been given that gentle nudge.

Yes, sometimes you have to get tough.  Personally, I simply discard
HTML encoded messages, unread; they are too much a vector for too
much nastiness for me to consider any other course.  Furthermore, I
don't waste time reading top-posted messages, if I can't immediately
glean sense from them without wasting my time unravelling the
convoluted thread of confusingly back-to-front previous messages.  
Thus, those who persist in top-posting will quickly lose my support
for their problems; this is in no way willfully ignoring them -- my
time is simply too valuable to waste on those who disrespect it, by
failing to conduct a dialogue in a coherent manner.

Etiquette provides a set of guidelines for polite posting; those who
comply with those guidelines stand the best chance of receiving a
useful reply.  However, to dogmatically insist on such compliance
might also be considered impolite.

--

Regards,
Keith.

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A: Yes.
> Q: Is it really?
>> A: Because the logical conversation flow is disrupted.
>>> Q: Why does MinGW object to top posting?
(abstracted from Larry Hall signature)

This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) Thread hijacking
3) HTML/MIME encoded mail
4) Improper quoting
5) Improper trimming
_______________________________________________
You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

[Erwin Waterlander-2]

Op 11/05/2009 10:25 PM, Keith Marshall schreef:

>
> Furthermore, I
> don't waste time reading top-posted messages, if I can't immediately
> glean sense from them without wasting my time unravelling the
> convoluted thread of confusingly back-to-front previous messages.  
> Thus, those who persist in top-posting will quickly lose my support
> for their problems; this is in no way willfully ignoring them -- my
> time is simply too valuable to waste on those who disrespect it, by
> failing to conduct a dialogue in a coherent manner.
>
>  

When you read a thread from the beginning top posts can save you time
scrolling. For PDA users it even saves download time.
You have to read the complete thread anyway to understand the topic,
because pieces of the conversation are cut out during reply.


>> A: Because the logical conversation flow is disrupted.
>>    


There is nothing logical to writing or reading directions. It's just
what you are used to. We don't have to write from top down any more to
prevent our hand getting into wet ink.
The only thing that is disruptive is a mixture of different styles.
Therefore it's good to promote a single style. This list chose a style
that is abandoned by more and more people,  so disruptions are likely to
occur.

best regards,

Erwin



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A: Yes.
> Q: Is it really?
>> A: Because the logical conversation flow is disrupted.
>>> Q: Why does MinGW object to top posting?
(abstracted from Larry Hall signature)

This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) Thread hijacking
3) HTML/MIME encoded mail
4) Improper quoting
5) Improper trimming
_______________________________________________
You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

[keithmarshall]

On Friday 06 November 2009 07:55:33 Erwin Waterlander wrote:
> When you read a thread from the beginning top posts can save you
> time scrolling.

I strongly disagree.  Top posted replies rarely yield sensible
meaning without wading through reams of irrelevant cruft, to find
the point to which the response relates.

> For PDA users it even saves download time.

If you wish to make that argument, then you *must* advocate
aggressive pruning of irrelevant content; top posters universally
*never* do this.

> You have to read the complete thread anyway to understand the
> topic, because pieces of the conversation are cut out during
> reply.

There should be just enough quoted context, AND NO MORE, to preserve
a sensible thread of meaning.  (Bottom posting, which I agree *does*
incur excessively wasteful scrolling, is every bit as unacceptable
as top posting).

> >> A: Because the logical conversation flow is disrupted.
>
> There is nothing logical to writing or reading directions. It's
> just what you are used to.

This statement is just so ridiculous as to be laughable.  In your
native Dutch, would you read a novel from the middle toward the
end-papers?  (That is effectively what you expect of me, when you
top post).

> We don't have to write from top down
> any more to prevent our hand getting into wet ink.

Totally irrelevant.  We read western language scripts, and English in
particular, since that is the language of this list, from left to
right and from top to bottom.  (While some oriental, indic or middle
eastern scripts may be read from right to left, I don't believe there
is any in current use, which is read other than from top downward).

> The only thing that is disruptive is a mixture of different
> styles. Therefore it's good to promote a single style. This list
> chose a style that is abandoned by more and more people,  so
> disruptions are likely to occur.

That it is abandoned is a result of pure ignorance or laziness.  Top
posting is illogical and disrespectful; if you don't understand this,
please read the references cited in the statement of the etiquette we
ask you to observe.  I've stated my policy with regard to this; it is
not open to debate.  If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to
participate in this list.

--

Regards,
Keith.

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_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
MinGW-users@...

This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.  Disregard for the list etiquette may cause your account to be moderated.

_______________________________________________
You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
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[Erwin Waterlander-2]

Keith Marshall schreef:

>
>> There is nothing logical to writing or reading directions. It's
>> just what you are used to.
>>    
>
> This statement is just so ridiculous as to be laughable.  In your
> native Dutch, would you read a novel from the middle toward the
> end-papers?  (That is effectively what you expect of me, when you
> top post).
>
>  

If everybody else did the same, and papers were written that way, I
would do it. I write/read top-down because they teached it  to me this
way. I don't see why it is 'logical'.

>> We don't have to write from top down
>> any more to prevent our hand getting into wet ink.
>>    
>
> Totally irrelevant.  We read western language scripts, and English in
> particular, since that is the language of this list, from left to
> right and from top to bottom.  (While some oriental, indic or middle
> eastern scripts may be read from right to left, I don't believe there
> is any in current use, which is read other than from top downward).
>  

Well, there are use cases. For instance top-posts in email.

>  
>> The only thing that is disruptive is a mixture of different
>> styles. Therefore it's good to promote a single style. This list
>> chose a style that is abandoned by more and more people,  so
>> disruptions are likely to occur.
>>    
>
> That it is abandoned is a result of pure ignorance or laziness.  Top
> posting is illogical and disrespectful; if you don't understand this,
> please read the references cited in the statement of the etiquette we
> ask you to observe.  

I think it's just an opinion to say that top-posting is lazy, illogical
and disrespectful. Most internet users don't agree. Only a small group
that was active in the early days of Usenet has strong objections.
The reference to the WikiPedia page is a good one. The rest is just
opinions.

> I've stated my policy with regard to this; it is
> not open to debate.  If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to
> participate in this list.
>
>  
I have no problems with the house rules and no intention to top-post.

--
Erwin


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_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
MinGW-users@...

This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.  Disregard for the list etiquette may cause your account to be moderated.

_______________________________________________
You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
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