Lost my window manager

[John Jason Jordan-2]

Debian testing amd64, fresh install, idiot newbie user four days old.

I had everything pretty much working and configured except for my
bluetooth mouse. Finally I succeeded in getting it working, although I
cannot tell you how. I had installed Blueman, but it couldn't get the
mouse paired either. But then suddenly I had two bluetooth icons in my
Gnome panel. Using System Monitor I killed two bluetooth devices - that
is, killing the first one changed nothing but killing the second one
deleted one of the bluetooth icons. Afterward I was able to get a GUI
dialog box that found the mouse. And this time I had a Next and a Back
button. I was finally able to get the mouse working when I selected
"connect" but "without pairing."

However, the mouse was not working properly. The pointer moved around,
but left clicking did not work. I could select things only by
right-clicking on them.

After poking around for a while and not finding a solution I decided to
reboot. When X and Gnome came up I got a popup asking if I wanted to
grant permission to the bluetooth mouse. I said Yes, and the mouse then
worked properly; that is, a left click worked as a left click.

Unfortunately, the entire Gnome panel is gone. Clicking on where things
are supposed to be in the panel does nothing. Windows have no title bar
or icons in the corner to minimize or maximize them The keyboard works,
but I cannot launch a terminal because I have forgotten the secret
keyboard shortcut to launch a terminal. The only way I know how to do
it is Applications > Accessories > Terminal, but there is no panel so I
can't click on Appplications. I did get to a command line with
Ctrl-Alt-F1, but I was unable to do anything constructive for failure
to know what the window manager is called or how to restore it.

I also note that, although I logged in as myself, some of my display
preferences were not honored. For example, I had Gnome set not to
display any icons at all on the dekstop. I wanted a dekstop utterly
devoid of anything except the Gnome panel. However, now all the items
contained in the Desktop folder appear on the screen.

I am just about to give up and go back to Ubuntu. I had said at the
outset of my foray into Debian that I would give it a week, but it has
become apparent that I do not have the technical expertise to run
Debian.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Jochen Schulz-2]

John Jason Jordan:
>
> [snip bluetooth mouse problems]

Sorry, cannot comment on that.

> Unfortunately, the entire Gnome panel is gone. Clicking on where things
> are supposed to be in the panel does nothing.

Is the panel gone or is it empty?

> Windows have no title bar
> or icons in the corner to minimize or maximize them The keyboard works,
> but I cannot launch a terminal because I have forgotten the secret
> keyboard shortcut to launch a terminal.

Alt-F2 should spawn a "Run dialog". Use that to run the missing
programs:

metacity
gnome-panel (if it is completely gone)

> The only way I know how to do
> it is Applications > Accessories > Terminal, but there is no panel so I
> can't click on Appplications. I did get to a command line with
> Ctrl-Alt-F1, but I was unable to do anything constructive for failure
> to know what the window manager is called or how to restore it.

That wouldn't have worked anyway, since you have to start X programs in
an X environment.

> I also note that, although I logged in as myself, some of my display
> preferences were not honored. For example, I had Gnome set not to
> display any icons at all on the dekstop. I wanted a dekstop utterly
> devoid of anything except the Gnome panel. However, now all the items
> contained in the Desktop folder appear on the screen.

Did you look for strange messages in /var/log/syslog? It appears
something is seriously broken. Obviously, what you experienced shouldn't
happen.

> I am just about to give up and go back to Ubuntu. I had said at the
> outset of my foray into Debian that I would give it a week, but it has
> become apparent that I do not have the technical expertise to run
> Debian.

The symptoms you describe shouldn't happen in either Debian or Ubuntu.
And if they happen (and you don't know how to work around them), you're
screwed with both distros. :-/

I think I would try moving the Gnome-related files (.gnome2/,
.gnome2_private) in my $HOME out of the way and cnfigure it from
scratch.

J.
--
Whenever I hear the word 'art' I reach for my visa card.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
                 <http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html>

[John Jason Jordan-2]

On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 08:16:40 +0100
Jochen Schulz <ml@...> dijo:

> > Unfortunately, the entire Gnome panel is gone. Clicking on where things
> > are supposed to be in the panel does nothing.
>
> Is the panel gone or is it empty?

That is a good question, but I cannot answer it. I like my desktop as
clean and austere as possible. Tht is why I set it to display no icons
for things in the ~/Desktop folder. I also use just a light solid color
background, and I set the panel to the same thing and transparent. I
also removed the bottom panel. So all I normally see is the Word
"Applications," "Places," System," and the rest of the items on the
panel. None of them appear, so I am asuming the panel is not running.
But if it was empty I would see the same blank spot at the top of the
screen.
> > Windows have no title bar
> > or icons in the corner to minimize or maximize them The keyboard works,
> > but I cannot launch a terminal because I have forgotten the secret
> > keyboard shortcut to launch a terminal.

> Alt-F2 should spawn a "Run dialog". Use that to run the missing
> programs:
>
> metacity
> gnome-panel (if it is completely gone)

Alt-F2 does nothing. Just now I tried it on the computer I am using to
type this (a desktop with Ubuntu Intrepid), and Alt-F2 does bring up
the Run dialog box. So Alt-F2 is also broken in my Debian testing.
> > The only way I know how to do
> > it is Applications > Accessories > Terminal, but there is no panel so I
> > can't click on Appplications. I did get to a command line with
> > Ctrl-Alt-F1, but I was unable to do anything constructive for failure
> > to know what the window manager is called or how to restore it.
>
> That wouldn't have worked anyway, since you have to start X programs in
> an X environment.

I aldready discovered that. But at least it is one way I can get a
command line, in case there is something else that I can do without
being in an X environment.

> > I also note that, although I logged in as myself, some of my display
> > preferences were not honored. For example, I had Gnome set not to
> > display any icons at all on the dekstop. I wanted a dekstop utterly
> > devoid of anything except the Gnome panel. However, now all the items
> > contained in the Desktop folder appear on the screen.
>
> Did you look for strange messages in /var/log/syslog? It appears
> something is seriously broken. Obviously, what you experienced shouldn't
> happen.

I rebooted  and then I read through the entire file starting at the
point where I rebooted, using "nano /var/log/syslog." When I finished I
turned to the desktop computer to write this e-mail. Just now I wanted
to move the cursor up so I could see the end of one suspicious line,
only to discover that nano has locked up while I was typing this. I
just used Ctrl-Alt-Del to reboot.

> > I am just about to give up and go back to Ubuntu. I had said at the
> > outset of my foray into Debian that I would give it a week, but it has
> > become apparent that I do not have the technical expertise to run
> > Debian.
>
> The symptoms you describe shouldn't happen in either Debian or Ubuntu.
> And if they happen (and you don't know how to work around them), you're
> screwed with both distros. :-/

While waiting for someone to offer some suggestions I tried the Karmic
x86_64 live CD. I was able to configure my bluetooth mouse without too
much difficulty, but it kept disconnecting every ten minutes or so. I
might be able to fix it if I actually installed Karmic, but I am not
impressed. I first got this mouse back in the days of Hardy and it
worked perfectly all the time. So did my cell phone and my headphones.

I was also not impressed by the fact that Shutdown is as broken in
Karmic as it has been on all versions of Ubuntu since I first installed
it on my T61 when it was brand new. It shuts down to a blinking cursor
at the top loeft of a black screen, but the LEDs are still lit up. I
have to use the power switch to turn it off. At least with Debian
testing I could shut down the computer properly.

> I think I would try moving the Gnome-related files (.gnome2/,
> .gnome2_private) in my $HOME out of the way and cnfigure it from
> scratch.

An excellent suggestion. Sadly, it changed nothing. That is, I used
Ctrl-Alt-F1 to get to a command line and then I used mv to rename them
by appending .old. Then I rebooted. But the display still shows no
panel and I still see the icons for my Desktop folder. I can click on
the icon for "JJJ's Home" and it will open a Nautilus browser window.
In the browser window I can select files, and I can use the keyboard to
rename them. But if I try to move the browser window I cannot because
dragging on the title bar does not work. However, I note that
new .gnome* folders were created when I rebooted.

I also tried changing the session to failsafe-GNOME, but that got me a
completely empty screen.

While poking around I discovered that if I right-click on the desktop I
have the option to create a launcher. I created one for gnome-terminal,
and it worked. Yay! I now have a way to launch a terminal, although it
is running in the broken desktop.

In the terminal I typed "gnome-panel" and my panel appeared! Then I
opened a new tab and typoed "metacity," and the window manager was
back! Yay!

However, if I close the terminal window it stops the processes, and the
panel and the window manager disappear. I find it interesting that the
icons for the Desktop folder items still appear on the desktop, even
though I had set up the desktop to be empty. Something in my personal
preferences is not getting loaded.

Slowly I am making progress. At least now I have a way to get the
window manager and Gnome panel back.

Thanks for the suggestions and patience!


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Gilles Mocellin]

Le Friday 06 November 2009 08:16:40 Jochen Schulz, vous avez écrit :
[...]

> > The only way I know how to do
> > it is Applications > Accessories > Terminal, but there is no panel so I
> > can't click on Appplications. I did get to a command line with
> > Ctrl-Alt-F1, but I was unable to do anything constructive for failure
> > to know what the window manager is called or how to restore it.
>
> That wouldn't have worked anyway, since you have to start X programs in
> an X environment.

Yes he can, he just have to specify the display.
For example :
# export DISPLAY=:0
# metacity &

or perhaps just
# gnome-panel &

[...]

[Chris Jones-44]

On Fri, Nov 06, 2009 at 03:09:34PM EST, John Jason Jordan wrote:

[..]

> I was also not impressed by the fact that Shutdown is as broken in
> Karmic as it has been on all versions of Ubuntu since I first installed
> it on my T61 when it was brand new. It shuts down to a blinking cursor
> at the top loeft of a black screen, but the LEDs are still lit up. I
> have to use the power switch to turn it off. At least with Debian
> testing I could shut down the computer properly.

Off-topic but you could try adding acpi=force to the "linux" grub
command for ubuntu - you can find out if this addresses the issue w/o
reconfiguring grub: just edit the ubuntu entry on the grub menu before
you boot.

[..]

> Slowly I am making progress. At least now I have a way to get the
> window manager and Gnome panel back.

Now that you have pretty much removed everything from gnome, maybe you
could contemplate removing gnome altogether ;-)

Seriously, if you like your desktops lean and mean, what's the point of
running gnome in the first place?

CJ


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Jochen Schulz-2]

John Jason Jordan:

> Jochen Schulz <ml@...> dijo:
>
>> Did you look for strange messages in /var/log/syslog? It appears
>> something is seriously broken. Obviously, what you experienced shouldn't
>> happen.
>
> I rebooted  and then I read through the entire file starting at the
> point where I rebooted, using "nano /var/log/syslog." When I finished I
> turned to the desktop computer to write this e-mail. Just now I wanted
> to move the cursor up so I could see the end of one suspicious line,
> only to discover that nano has locked up while I was typing this. I
> just used Ctrl-Alt-Del to reboot.

The syslog should still be there, maybe renames to syslog.0 or something
like that.

> While poking around I discovered that if I right-click on the desktop I
> have the option to create a launcher. I created one for gnome-terminal,
> and it worked. Yay! I now have a way to launch a terminal, although it
> is running in the broken desktop.
>
> In the terminal I typed "gnome-panel" and my panel appeared! Then I
> opened a new tab and typoed "metacity," and the window manager was
> back! Yay!
>
> However, if I close the terminal window it stops the processes, and the
> panel and the window manager disappear.

If you run the programs like this:

nohup metacity &
nohup gnome-panel &

They should keep running after you close the terminal. After that, you
should go the the settings menu (don't remember what it's called
exactly) to save your current session (or make sure that Gnome autosaves
the session on logout).

> I find it interesting that the
> icons for the Desktop folder items still appear on the desktop, even
> though I had set up the desktop to be empty. Something in my personal
> preferences is not getting loaded.

I told you to remove your settings so I am not surprised. :)

> Thanks for the suggestions and patience!

You're welcome. I am quite baffled by the strange behaviour you are
getting.

J.
--
If I had to live on a desert island I would take a mobile phone,
preferably a Nokia 8810.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
                 <http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html>

[John Jason Jordan-2]

On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:31:38 +0100
Jochen Schulz <ml@...> dijo:

> John Jason Jordan:
> > Jochen Schulz <ml@...> dijo:

> > However, if I close the terminal window it stops the processes, and the
> > panel and the window manager disappear.
>
> If you run the programs like this:
>
> nohup metacity &
> nohup gnome-panel &

That works much better.

> They should keep running after you close the terminal. After that, you
> should go the the settings menu (don't remember what it's called
> exactly) to save your current session (or make sure that Gnome autosaves
> the session on logout).

I wish you could remember what the settings menu is called, because I
can't get it to work. I've looked everywhere in the GUI and I can't
find any place to save the current session.

> > Thanks for the suggestions and patience!
>
> You're welcome. I am quite baffled by the strange behaviour you are
> getting.

Me too. I have never used Debian other than a quick trial, but I have
used Ubuntu starting with Breezy on my first Linux computer. I have had
lots of strange things happen, but this is new and perplexing.

I really probably belong in Ubuntu-land, because I am just a no-count
desktop user. I have no interest in programming or looking under the
hood of Linux. But after several years of Ubuntu I decided it was time
to expand my horizons. I tried other mainstream distros, but I need my
Synaptic and Debian package management tools. So here I am in
Debian-istan, trying my best to figure it out.

I do like Debian testing so far, in spite of the issues I am having.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Andrew Sackville-West]

On Fri, Nov 06, 2009 at 07:51:50PM -0800, John Jason Jordan wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:31:38 +0100
> Jochen Schulz <ml@...> dijo:
[...]

> >
> > If you run the programs like this:
> >
> > nohup metacity &
> > nohup gnome-panel &
>
> That works much better.
>
> > They should keep running after you close the terminal. After that, you
> > should go the the settings menu (don't remember what it's called
> > exactly) to save your current session (or make sure that Gnome autosaves
> > the session on logout).
>
> I wish you could remember what the settings menu is called, because I
> can't get it to work. I've looked everywhere in the GUI and I can't
> find any place to save the current session.
>

System -> Preferences -> Session

select the Session Options tab and there is a button to save the
current session.

A

[John Jason Jordan-2]

On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 20:41:59 -0800
Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@...> dijo:

> On Fri, Nov 06, 2009 at 07:51:50PM -0800, John Jason Jordan wrote:
> > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:31:38 +0100
> > Jochen Schulz <ml@...> dijo:
> [...]
> > >
> > > If you run the programs like this:
> > >
> > > nohup metacity &
> > > nohup gnome-panel &
> >
> > That works much better.
> >
> > > They should keep running after you close the terminal. After that, you
> > > should go the the settings menu (don't remember what it's called
> > > exactly) to save your current session (or make sure that Gnome autosaves
> > > the session on logout).
> >
> > I wish you could remember what the settings menu is called, because I
> > can't get it to work. I've looked everywhere in the GUI and I can't
> > find any place to save the current session.
> >
>
> System -> Preferences -> Session
>
> select the Session Options tab and there is a button to save the
> current session.

I don't have "Session" under System > Preferences. :(


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Tixy]

On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 20:47 -0800, John Jason Jordan wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 20:41:59 -0800
> Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@...> dijo:
>
> > On Fri, Nov 06, 2009 at 07:51:50PM -0800, John Jason Jordan wrote:
> > > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:31:38 +0100
> > > Jochen Schulz <ml@...> dijo:
> > [...]
> > > >
> > > > If you run the programs like this:
> > > >
> > > > nohup metacity &
> > > > nohup gnome-panel &
> > >
> > > That works much better.
> > >
> > > > They should keep running after you close the terminal. After that, you
> > > > should go the the settings menu (don't remember what it's called
> > > > exactly) to save your current session (or make sure that Gnome autosaves
> > > > the session on logout).
> > >
> > > I wish you could remember what the settings menu is called, because I
> > > can't get it to work. I've looked everywhere in the GUI and I can't
> > > find any place to save the current session.
> > >
> >
> > System -> Preferences -> Session
> >
> > select the Session Options tab and there is a button to save the
> > current session.
>
> I don't have "Session" under System > Preferences. :(
>
>

It's now called "Startup Applications".

--
Tixy


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[John Jason Jordan-2]

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 05:19:43 +0000
Tixy <debianuser@...> dijo:

> On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 20:47 -0800, John Jason Jordan wrote:
> > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 20:41:59 -0800
> > Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@...> dijo:
> >
> > > On Fri, Nov 06, 2009 at 07:51:50PM -0800, John Jason Jordan wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:31:38 +0100
> > > > Jochen Schulz <ml@...> dijo:
> > > [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > If you run the programs like this:
> > > > >
> > > > > nohup metacity &
> > > > > nohup gnome-panel &
> > > >
> > > > That works much better.
> > > >
> > > > > They should keep running after you close the terminal. After that, you
> > > > > should go the the settings menu (don't remember what it's called
> > > > > exactly) to save your current session (or make sure that Gnome autosaves
> > > > > the session on logout).
> > > >
> > > > I wish you could remember what the settings menu is called, because I
> > > > can't get it to work. I've looked everywhere in the GUI and I can't
> > > > find any place to save the current session.
> > > >
> > >
> > > System -> Preferences -> Session
> > >
> > > select the Session Options tab and there is a button to save the
> > > current session.
> >
> > I don't have "Session" under System > Preferences. :(

> It's now called "Startup Applications".

I do have Startup Applications. But the only options are to
"automatically remember current applications when logging out" and
"remember currently running applications."

Neither saves my configuration so gnome-panel and metacity are
automatically started.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Jochen Schulz-2]

John Jason Jordan:
>
> I do like Debian testing so far, in spite of the issues I am having.

Oh, you are using testing? I must have missed that. You shouldn't do
that as a desktop user with no intention to dig into internals and write
bug reports.

J.
--
I wish I had been aware enough to enjoy my time as a toddler.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
                 <http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html>

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.-3]

In <20091107124017.GW11145@...>, Jochen Schulz wrote:
>John Jason Jordan:
>> I do like Debian testing so far, in spite of the issues I am having.
>
>Oh, you are using testing? I must have missed that. You shouldn't do
>that as a desktop user with no intention to dig into internals and write
>bug reports.

You don't have to dig into internals, just be willing to help bug wranglers
and patch builders reproduce the bug.  Testing/unstable user aren't expected
to fix bugs on their own, just provide assistance to the maintainer(s) and
upstream(s).

Testing or unstable can be more suitable for some users that expect new
upstream releases to propagate to their system quickly.  Unstable means
changing constantly; not broken -- issues get fixed in unstable with much less
turn-around than testing or stable.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.                   ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@...                   ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy         `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/                    \_/

[John Jason Jordan-2]

On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 04:36:08 -0600
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss@...> dijo:

> In <20091107124017.GW11145@...>, Jochen Schulz wrote:
> >John Jason Jordan:
> >> I do like Debian testing so far, in spite of the issues I am having.
> >
> >Oh, you are using testing? I must have missed that. You shouldn't do
> >that as a desktop user with no intention to dig into internals and write
> >bug reports.
>
> You don't have to dig into internals, just be willing to help bug wranglers
> and patch builders reproduce the bug.  Testing/unstable user aren't expected
> to fix bugs on their own, just provide assistance to the maintainer(s) and
> upstream(s).
>
> Testing or unstable can be more suitable for some users that expect new
> upstream releases to propagate to their system quickly.  Unstable means
> changing constantly; not broken -- issues get fixed in unstable with much less
> turn-around than testing or stable.

In the years I used Ubuntu I filed numerous bug reports. I also
participated fairly heavily in the forums. I would continue that
activity with Debian testing.

However, in the present situation I cannot file a bug report. Bugs need
to be reproducible, but I cannot say what I did that triggered losing
the window manager and gnome panel. It may be of some benefit that the
saga is documented here. Perhaps this will happen to someone else
someday and they will be able to add something that helps track down
what happened.

Since my last post here I have discovered some other things that are
broken. For example, clicking on Places > Home Folder generates an
error that there is no application registered to open the file. Ditto
for Places > Desktop. Yet Nautilus comes up fine if I click on Places >
Computer, and from that window I can navigate to ~/ and ~/Desktop. Very
strange. Apparently launching gnome-panel from the command line as
"gnome-panel" does not load some parts that gnome-panel needs. Or
perhaps gnome-panel and metacity are not the only missing parts.

Because I have not yet been able to figure out how to make metacity and
gnome-panel start automatically on booting as they are supposed to,
plus the additional issues recently discovered, I have decided to wipe
it out and reinstall. Not all the effort I put into installing it is
wasted, because a lot of time was spent figuring out how to migrate
things from Ubuntu. The reinstall should go faster.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Andrew Sackville-West]

On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 09:42:14AM -0800, John Jason Jordan wrote:

[snip recap of troubles..]
>
> Because I have not yet been able to figure out how to make metacity and
> gnome-panel start automatically on booting as they are supposed to,
> plus the additional issues recently discovered, I have decided to wipe
> it out and reinstall. Not all the effort I put into installing it is
> wasted, because a lot of time was spent figuring out how to migrate
> things from Ubuntu. The reinstall should go faster.

Indeed it should, though, if you're in the mood for learning your way
around debian, you could try using aptitude to purge all gnome related
packages and then installing them again. You wouldn't have to do a
complete system reinstall, and since it's likely many of the .debs are
still floating around your cache, it would not require a bunch of
network access. As I starting point, I would look at purging gdm,
metacity, and nautilus. That will likely cause all kinds of things to
be removed, just as a warning.

But, if you head down this path, remember that it can be time
consuming...

just .02

A

[Klistvud]

Dne, 08. 11. 2009 18:42:14 je John Jason Jordan napisal(a):
I see you're reinstalling anyway. Just for the record: have you tried
creating another user and logging is as that user? Just to see if it's
just your user account that's broken, or is the entire system
borked ...

--
Regards and Good Luck,

Klistvud
Certifiable Loonix User #481801


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...