Loud pipes and SAE J2825
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Loud pipes and SAE J2825
by Paul Wilson-10
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Now that the Society of Automotive Engineers has developed an easily
administered standardized test (SAE J2825) for noise levels, perhaps the days of louder-than-stock aftermarket pipes are coming to an end. States, cities and counties can readily write the new test into their motor vehicle laws. There's a lengthy article on the subject in the new edition of "American Motorcyclist", (Sept., pp. 46-49) but it's only available on-line to Members, apparently. The industry (aka the MIC and Tim Buche) and AMA are foursquare behind it. Ed Moreland, AMA VP for government relations said, "The J2825 practice allows jurisdictions around the nation, struggling with complaints about excessive motorcycle sound, to set reasonable limits in accordance with the procedure." _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles |
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Re: Loud pipes and SAE J2825
by Joel Harding
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Page 48 contains the critical paragraphs:
The SAE J2825 standard, prepared by the SAE Motorcycle Technical Steering committee, recommends: - A limit of 92 dBA at idle for all machines; - using the Set RPM or Swept RPM test - 100 dBA for three - or four- cylinder machines at 5,000 rpm or 75 percent of maximum engine speed, whichever is less; and - A limit of 96 dBA for bikes with fewer than three or more than four cylinders at 2,000 rpm or 75 percent of maximum engine speed, whichever is less. - The test also suggests that 2 dBA be added to these sound limits for motorcycle exhaust systems that have EPA sound-limit certification labels and haven't been modified. Those limits seem straightforward enough. Holding the calibrated sound meter at a 45 degree angle 20 inches from the exhaust pipe of a running engine. Joel -----Original Message----- From: dc-cycles-bounces@... on behalf of Paul Wilson Sent: Fri 8/28/2009 12:01 PM To: DC-Cycles Subject: [dc-cycles] Loud pipes and SAE J2825 Now that the Society of Automotive Engineers has developed an easily administered standardized test (SAE J2825) for noise levels, perhaps the days of louder-than-stock aftermarket pipes are coming to an end. States, cities and counties can readily write the new test into their motor vehicle laws. There's a lengthy article on the subject in the new edition of "American Motorcyclist", (Sept., pp. 46-49) but it's only available on-line to Members, apparently. The industry (aka the MIC and Tim Buche) and AMA are foursquare behind it. Ed Moreland, AMA VP for government relations said, "The J2825 practice allows jurisdictions around the nation, struggling with complaints about excessive motorcycle sound, to set reasonable limits in accordance with the procedure." _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles |
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Re: Loud pipes and SAE J2825
by mike b.-4
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Joel Harding wrote:
> Those limits seem straightforward enough. Holding the calibrated > sound meter at a 45 degree angle 20 inches from the exhaust pipe of a > running engine. Holding it *where*? 20 inches in line with the pipe? 20 inches above the end? 20 inches from the opening of the end of the pipe? Which one if there is more than one? Downturned pipes, side-baloney-cut, fishtail, etc. pipes all send the majority of their sound in different directions. Where are they specifying that you "listen" from? How about pipes that were legal, and sold as such, at some point prior to the passage of any law specifying this standard? Grandfathered? Or are they going to pay to have them replaced with newer standard pipes? Changing the law to make previously legal pipes illegal would seem to me to be a "taking" and require compensation. -- Mike Bartman mbartman@... 240-743-5130 x310 (office) 301-452-7486 (cell) _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles |
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Re: Loud pipes and SAE J2825
by Joel Harding
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The article has a straight forward illustration which answers your
questions. Basically, in my opinion, if a pipe has reduced or no baffles it's not going to pass but the test was written ICW a number of aftermarket manufacturers as well as HD. The AMA is standing squarely behind it. I still have a stock muffler, I'm covered. Joel -----Original Message----- From: dc-cycles-bounces@... [mailto:dc-cycles-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Mike B. Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 9:21 PM To: DC-Cycles list Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Loud pipes and SAE J2825 Joel Harding wrote: > Those limits seem straightforward enough. Holding the calibrated > sound meter at a 45 degree angle 20 inches from the exhaust pipe of a > running engine. Holding it *where*? 20 inches in line with the pipe? 20 inches above the end? 20 inches from the opening of the end of the pipe? Which one if there is more than one? Downturned pipes, side-baloney-cut, fishtail, etc. pipes all send the majority of their sound in different directions. Where are they specifying that you "listen" from? How about pipes that were legal, and sold as such, at some point prior to the passage of any law specifying this standard? Grandfathered? Or are they going to pay to have them replaced with newer standard pipes? Changing the law to make previously legal pipes illegal would seem to me to be a "taking" and require compensation. -- Mike Bartman mbartman@... 240-743-5130 x310 (office) 301-452-7486 (cell) _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles |
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Re: Loud pipes and SAE J2825
by Paul Wilson-10
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Quoth the AMA:
"The SAE J2825 on-highway motorcycle sound test procedure is similar to the one used for the SAE J1287 off-highway motorcycle test. The streetbike measurement requires holding a calibrated sound meter at a 45-degree angle 20 inches from the exhaust pipe of a running engine. The procedure spells out how to do the test with the bike at idle, at a predetermined engine speed ("Set RPM Test"), or by slowly increasing the engine speed of the bike, known as the "Swept RPM Test."" <http://www.amadirectlink.com/news/story.asp?id=995> If you want the entire testing standard and the research background, it'll set you back $61 on the ANSI site. <http://webstore.ansi.org/RecordDetail.aspx?sku=SAE+J+2825-2009+%28SAE+J2825-2009%29> "SAE J 2825-2009 (SAE J2825-2009) Measurement of Exhaust Sound Pressure Levels of Stationary On-Highway Motorcycles This SAE Recommended Practice establishes test procedures, test conditions, environment, and instrumentation for determining the exhaust sound pressure levels of stationary motorcycles. These are based on a comprehensive study of a wide variety of on-highway motorcycles, and therefore are intended to be applied to on-highway motorcycles. For off-highway motorcycles, SAE J1287 continues to be the recommended practice. This document is intended to provide a basis for roadside monitoring or screening of stationary on-highway motorcycle exhaust sound pressure levels where use of a more comprehensive procedure for measuring total motorcycle sound during operation, such as SAE J331 or SAE J47, is not practical." On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Joel Harding<harding@...> wrote: > The article has a straight forward illustration which answers your > questions. > > Basically, in my opinion, if a pipe has reduced or no baffles it's not > going to pass but the test was written ICW a number of aftermarket > manufacturers as well as HD. The AMA is standing squarely behind it. > > I still have a stock muffler, I'm covered. > > Joel > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dc-cycles-bounces@... > [mailto:dc-cycles-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Mike B. > Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 9:21 PM > To: DC-Cycles list > Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Loud pipes and SAE J2825 > > Joel Harding wrote: > >> Those limits seem straightforward enough. Holding the calibrated >> sound meter at a 45 degree angle 20 inches from the exhaust pipe of a >> running engine. > > Holding it *where*? 20 inches in line with the pipe? 20 inches above > the end? 20 inches from the opening of the end of the pipe? Which one > if there is more than one? > > Downturned pipes, side-baloney-cut, fishtail, etc. pipes all send the > majority of their sound in different directions. Where are they > specifying that you "listen" from? > > How about pipes that were legal, and sold as such, at some point prior > to the passage of any law specifying this standard? Grandfathered? Or > are they going to pay to have them replaced with newer standard pipes? > Changing the law to make previously legal pipes illegal would seem to me > > to be a "taking" and require compensation. > > -- Mike Bartman > mbartman@... > 240-743-5130 x310 (office) > 301-452-7486 (cell) > _______________________________________________ > dc-cycles mailing list > dc-cycles@... > http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > dc-cycles mailing list > dc-cycles@... > http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles > dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles |
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Heading to Maine
by Joel Harding
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'heading to Maine on Friday by way of Ronkonkoma, NY; 'taking the ferry from Orient Point to New London, CT, then on to Boston and Salem, MA. Popping in and out along the coast and winding up at Bar Harbor, Maine. On the way back we're stopping by Lake George, NY, taking the back roads almost the whole way there so we can maximize the chance of seeing black bear and some moose. Meese. Mooses.. *grin*
I rode to Boston and back a few weeks ago, this is a great ride! Joel ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles |
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Re: Loud pipes and SAE J2825
by Bob Meyer-2
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Unfortunately, it doesn't address one of the biggest problems local jurisdictions have: the need for a calibrated meter. With local governments cutting money wherever they can, equipping large numbers of LEOs with meters just isn't going to happen. Even in good times, police departments are unlikely to spend much money on meters. Banning aftermarket pipes, as Boston has pretty much done, is cheaper and easier to enforce.
---- Paul Wilson <dcmcrider@...> wrote: > Now that the Society of Automotive Engineers has developed an easily > administered standardized test (SAE J2825) for noise levels, perhaps > the days of louder-than-stock aftermarket pipes are coming to an end. > States, cities and counties can readily write the new test into their > motor vehicle laws. > > There's a lengthy article on the subject in the new edition of > "American Motorcyclist", (Sept., pp. 46-49) but it's only available > on-line to Members, apparently. The industry (aka the MIC and Tim > Buche) and AMA are foursquare behind it. Ed Moreland, AMA VP for > government relations said, "The J2825 practice allows jurisdictions > around the nation, struggling with complaints about excessive > motorcycle sound, to set reasonable limits in accordance with the > procedure." > _______________________________________________ > dc-cycles mailing list > dc-cycles@... > http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles -- Bob Meyer, #1157, Fairfax, Virginia '01 Candy Dark Red ST1100, "teSTarossa" Life is all about ass... You're either covering it, laughing it off, kicking it, kissing it, busting it, trying to get a piece of it, or behaving like one. _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles |
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Re: Loud pipes and SAE J2825
by Joel Harding
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When I was in Boston a few weeks ago I wasn't aware of any motorcycle or noise laws. I actually talked with a few LEOs when I was there, I even stopped and chatted with a motor officer. Nobody asked to see my EPA marking, nobody bent down to see if my pipes were stock, but when a loud car drove by the cop excused himself and took off like a shot. The nice thing is to know they didn't care if it was a bike or a car. I never heard a loud bike my entire time there. It wasn't until I passed through Gettysburg, PA that my ears hurt from all the slant and straight pipes...
Joel -----Original Message----- From: dc-cycles-bounces@... on behalf of Bob Meyer Sent: Tue 9/1/2009 9:29 PM To: DC-Cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Loud pipes and SAE J2825 Unfortunately, it doesn't address one of the biggest problems local jurisdictions have: the need for a calibrated meter. With local governments cutting money wherever they can, equipping large numbers of LEOs with meters just isn't going to happen. Even in good times, police departments are unlikely to spend much money on meters. Banning aftermarket pipes, as Boston has pretty much done, is cheaper and easier to enforce. ---- Paul Wilson <dcmcrider@...> wrote: > Now that the Society of Automotive Engineers has developed an easily > administered standardized test (SAE J2825) for noise levels, perhaps > the days of louder-than-stock aftermarket pipes are coming to an end. > States, cities and counties can readily write the new test into their > motor vehicle laws. > > There's a lengthy article on the subject in the new edition of > "American Motorcyclist", (Sept., pp. 46-49) but it's only available > on-line to Members, apparently. The industry (aka the MIC and Tim > Buche) and AMA are foursquare behind it. Ed Moreland, AMA VP for > government relations said, "The J2825 practice allows jurisdictions > around the nation, struggling with complaints about excessive > motorcycle sound, to set reasonable limits in accordance with the > procedure." > _______________________________________________ > dc-cycles mailing list > dc-cycles@... > http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles -- Bob Meyer, #1157, Fairfax, Virginia '01 Candy Dark Red ST1100, "teSTarossa" Life is all about ass... You're either covering it, laughing it off, kicking it, kissing it, busting it, trying to get a piece of it, or behaving like one. _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles |
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Re: Loud pipes and SAE J2825
by Paul Wilson-10
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The EPA test (which differs from SAE J2825) considers all the noise sources from the bike: intake, engine and exhaust. EPA considers the noise from the entire vehicle as a entire package, a quite reasonalbe apporach, because the ear doesn't care where the noise comes from. Tests are done model-by-model under laboratory conditions, so the manufacturers can certify their compliance. I'm not as sanguine as the AMA and the MIC that this new "roadside" standard is much of a solution to anything, except to salvage a few "slightly louder than stock" aftermarket pipes. But, it's still expensive to enforce, requiring new equipment and LEO training. From a public policy standpoint, a sweeping ban on all aftermarket pipes--J2825 notwithstanding-- is the path of least resistance for most legislators being implored to "do something" about obnoxious bike noise.
That said, certain bikes "mildly" uncorked, like a Ducati 90-degree twin, are music to my ears. Migraine-inducing Motor Company products that rattle my window frames and set off every car alarm on the block....not so much. Paul SV650 with stock pipe. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Dave Yates" <dave@...> Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:14:38 To: DC-Cycles<dc-cycles@...> Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Loud pipes and SAE J2825 Doubly so thanks to the recent USSC ruling permitting defendants to subpoena support staff (calibrating for example). VA just had a special session addressing this. Really this comes down to outright cop laziness. There's no points or substantial fine (here) so they stick with the "low hanging fruit" - stationary radar. Since the courts give judicial notice to the "professional opinion" of law enforcement, all they need to do is testify they heard an obnoxiously loud vehicle and initiated a stop. Upon investigation, it was revealed the vehicle had no baffles in the muffler at all, and the driver was issued a summons. The aftermarket will find a way around whatever ends up being the "accepted" method. I have to say though, I'm giving serious thought to the field of audiology. Lots o' 1 percenters are going to be needing hearing aids in a few years. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Bob Meyer [mailto:st1100@...] Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 09:29 PM To: 'DC-Cycles' Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Loud pipes and SAE J2825 Unfortunately, it doesn't address one of the biggest problems local jurisdictions have: the need for a calibrated meter. With local governments cutting money wherever they can, equipping large numbers of LEOs with meters just isn't going to happen. Even in good times, police departments are unlikely to spend much money on meters. Banning aftermarket pipes, as Boston has pretty much done, is cheaper and easier to enforce. ---- Paul Wilson <dcmcrider@...> wrote: > Now that the Society of Automotive Engineers has developed an easily > administered standardized test (SAE J2825) for noise levels, perhaps > the days of louder-than-stock aftermarket pipes are coming to an end. > States, cities and counties can readily write the new test into their > motor vehicle laws. > > There's a lengthy article on the subject in the new edition of > "American Motorcyclist", (Sept., pp. 46-49) but it's only available > on-line to Members, apparently. The industry (aka the MIC and Tim > Buche) and AMA are foursquare behind it. Ed Moreland, AMA VP for > government relations said, "The J2825 practice allows jurisdictions > around the nation, struggling with complaints about excessive > motorcycle sound, to set reasonable limits in accordance with the > procedure." _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles |
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Re: Loud pipes and SAE J2825
by mike b.-4
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dcmcrider@... wrote:
> That said, certain bikes "mildly" uncorked, like a Ducati 90-degree > twin, are music to my ears. Migraine-inducing Motor Company products > that rattle my window frames and set off every car alarm on the > block....not so much. While I don't like overly loud pipes either...I've been on group rides behind some of these...what constitutes "annoyingly loud pipes" is a very subjective assessment in most cases. The law can define scientific standards all it likes, and that will be the basis for the fines and the court battles and for lawyers and expert witnesses making a living, but the public is still going to decide based on what they hear themselves...and that is going to be based mostly on what they are used to and expect, not on what's actually loud. I have a neighbor who builds bikes, and some of his have very loud pipes...i.e. just tubes, not mufflers. He's always considerate when leaving the area; keeping revs down, coasting a good bit, etc., so the noise isn't bad. Quieter than the trash truck, a fire engine, a moving van and one of the larger Washington Gas repair trucks that have come down the same street in the time I've lived here. City buses are also really damn loud and I doubt they could pass this new standard test...but they don't come into my neighborhood. Speaking of buses...back in the early 60s we lived in Scotland on the shores of Holy Loch. The US Navy had anchored a sub tender, a floating drydock and usually a supply ship out in the loch to take care of Polaris missile subs, with the permission of the British government of course. They ran launches between the ships and the pier in Dunoon to move some crew to and from work, and for buying local supplies. There were complaints from the locals about the noise these boats made. Said it was keeping them awake at night. My dad got tasked with taking a sound meter around the loch and measuring the levels. He found that, by far, the noisiest thing in the area was the double-decker buses. By far. There were no complaints about those however, since people were used to that noise. The boats were a new thing. Despite this, the Navy spent a fair bit of money making them quieter as a politically expedient thing to do. -- Mike B. -- '04 FLSTCI (H-D Softail Heritage Classic with EFI for the non-Harley folks) Learning from your mistakes is good. Learning from someone else's mistakes is better. _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles |
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Re: Loud pipes and SAE J2825
by Wayne Edelen-2
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On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:25 PM, <dcmcrider@...> wrote:
> The EPA test (which differs from SAE J2825) considers all the noise sources from the bike: intake, engine and exhaust. EPA considers the noise from the entire vehicle as a entire package, a quite reasonalbe apporach, because the ear doesn't care where the noise comes from. Tests are done model-by-model under laboratory conditions, so the manufacturers can certify their compliance. I'm not as sanguine as the AMA and the MIC that this new "roadside" standard is much of a solution to anything, except to salvage a few "slightly louder than stock" aftermarket pipes. But, it's still expensive to enforce, requiring new equipment and LEO training. From a public policy standpoint, a sweeping ban on all aftermarket pipes--J2825 notwithstanding-- is the path of least resistance for most legislators being implored to "do something" about obnoxious bike noise. > > That said, certain bikes "mildly" uncorked, like a Ducati 90-degree twin, are music to my ears. Migraine-inducing Motor Company products that rattle my window frames and set off every car alarm on the block....not so much. > Include the Japanese cruisers, sportbikes, fart-pipe equipped sport compacts, muffler-less musclecars, the list goes on. Hardleys don't have the market cornered on annoying exhausts. :-) As far as the laws, I'm not sure that we need yet another one, but I'm cool with reducing noise pollution as long as the laws are aimed at all road users, not just motorcyclists. Commercial vehicles need to be included, too. -- Wayne _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@... http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles |
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