Nabble - MC Engine Design

Re: EI Carb

2009-12-09T11:01:38Z

Wallace, you may find some useful information at

http://www.lectronfuelsystems.com/

There's a lengthy post with a timeline and information for the different carbs
made by William Edmonston at

http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/text/topic/21700-1.html

1968-1969: The Lake Injector prototype and final production model carburetor.
1970-1971: The Pos-A-Fuel prototype and final production model carburetor.
1971: The Pos-A-Fuel with remote float bowl production model carburetor.
1973-1974: The Lectron prototype and final production model carburetor.
1976-1977: The E.I. Prototype and final production model carburetor.
1978: The Blue Magnum production model carburetor.
1980: The Bank of Four Blue Magnum model carburetor.
1981-1982: The Qwik Silver prototype and production model carburetor.
1982: The Qwik Silver Bank of Four carburetor wins Daytona super-bike race.
1993: The Qwik Silver II production model carburetor (sold to Edelbrock).

cheers,
Michael

Re: EI Carb

2009-12-08T19:09:10Z

Hi Wallace...

The EI and Lectron came from the same family... and I mean that
literally.. I am not familiar with Lecton... so I can not comment... Good luck...

Ron

In a message dated 12/8/2009 11:25:01 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
helen.wallace@... writes:

Thanks for the info

The carb I have has been 'modified' by someone who does't know too much.
(IE Adding a main get to the needle jet) From your comments, I have
realized that the cut screw in the carb top is the throttle stop. I may have to
make a new one.

I'm missing the slide spring, but I have an idea of what it looks like.

The needle looks untouched but I can't see any numbers on it. Are they the
same as Lectrons ?

Thanks Wallace

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Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: Press fit lube - use castor!!! - it'll damned near cure cancer too!

2009-12-08T15:16:51Z

A convert!! - Thanks Matt!

Yes, anyone who does try it for the first time is usually surprised, and happy with the result. Castor is magic indeed ...and keeps me satisfied with it as a lubricant for my poor hard-working race engines.

Cheers,
Greg

--- In mc-engine@..., "Matt Patterson" <matt@...> wrote:

>
> Just to bring this one back.
>
> If you have any doubts as to whether this works or not then I suggest giving
> it a go.
>
> Not a squeak or a bang......the parts just slid together lovely :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt.
> www.tyga-performance.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Matt Patterson
> To: mc-engine@...
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 5:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Press fit lube - use castor!!! - it'll damned near cure cancer
> too!
>
>
>
> Greg,
>
> An interesting post. I have to press a crank together over the weekend, so
> I'll give this a try. I don't have any R40 either, but I do have some
> Silkolene castor oil, so that'll be my weapon of choice.
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt.
> www.tyga-performance.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gregsummerton
> To: mc-engine@...
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 5:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Press fit lube - use castor!!! - it'll damned near cure cancer
> too!
>
> Rob,
> I was taught to use castor oil (Castrol R40 no more in Oz of course, but
> there are others out there, Morris, Rock etc) by the old guys who taught me
> how to manufacture cranks, crankpins and shafts from scratch.
>
> Yes, make the end of the shaft somewhat bullnosed and fine grind/polish,
> then smear/wipe surfaces with castor and you will be amazed at how quietly
> and smoothly the pin/shaft will slip into the wheel.
> If you've done similar using mineral or synthetic oils before, then you will
> be worried, cos it goes in too smoothly.
>
> When I was using a mate's press, while I was awaiting delivery of my new
> one, he stopped me pressing after a short while and declared I had the wrong
> interference or something and proceeded to check my hole and shaft....then
> rather puzzled, he said if anything I had too much interference...and what
> was that I'd used as a lube?
>
> Ever since then he has used castor for pressing all pins and shafts as I do.
>
> Case hardened pins into 4140 heat treated wheels with 4 to 4 and a half thou
> interference do not creak and groan and do not move in large jumps, it is
> possible to sneak up on riod clearances in my press when using castor.
>
> Recently I was pressing a former into an alloy tube to produce a replica JAP
> pushrod tube. I used ordinary engine oil because I'd nearly run out of
> castor. But after having the aluminium pick up in several tubes I switched
> to castor. Magic.
>
> Seriously, don't just take my word for it and move on, try it, everyone, you
> will be surprised.
>
> Wait! There's more!.....After you've tried castor for a few things like
> this, then if you are racing old pre-1960 bikes, think very carefully about
> what type of oil you use in them....
> Cheers,
> Greg
>
> --- In mc-engine@..., "ausrobg" <ausrobg@> wrote:
>
> > What lube do you guys use for axles and crankpins in soft flywheels ?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Rob
> >
>

Re: EI Carb

2009-12-08T11:24:58Z

Thanks for the info

The carb I have has been 'modified' by someone who does't know too much. (IE Adding a main get to the needle jet) From your comments, I have realized that the cut screw in the carb top is the throttle stop. I may have to make a new one.

I'm missing the slide spring, but I have an idea of what it looks like.

The needle looks untouched but I can't see any numbers on it. Are they the same as Lectrons ?

Thanks Wallace

Re: EI Carb

2009-12-08T07:20:47Z

HI Wallace... the EI is very simple, the only adjustment is the needle..
raise or lower the needle as needed.. oh yes there is an throttle stop
screw. One thing to look for is when the bike is idling... there is an O-ring
behind the "choke" that can pass air and thus vary the tuning a bit...

Cheers..!!

Ron

In a message dated 12/8/2009 2:00:55 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
helen.wallace@... writes:

Does anyone have an exploded view and a setup procedure for an EI Carb?

I have a 38 mm one going on my SR500.

Thanks Wallace.

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: Aluminium welding question

2009-12-08T05:12:15Z

So the answer is that 6061T6 welded up using 5356 rods came out just as I'd
hoped. The anodizing came out great.

The clear anodizing didn't hide all the sins, but you had to look for it.
The black parts....well..........handed a piece to my mate and he couldn't
find the weld.

I guess that answers my question.

Regards,

Matt.
www.tyga-performance.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Matt Patterson
To: mc-engine@...
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: Aluminium welding question

Perhaps the best plan is to grab a chunk of 6061 and do a couple of test
welds using the different methods, then send it off to anodise and see what
happens.

Thanks for your advice.

Regards,

Matt.
www.tyga-performance.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Ian
To: mc-engine@...
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: Aluminium welding question

>Anyway, back to the welding. How about I cut some lengths of 6061 then.

I've never tried that to be honest, whilst it sounds logical, I
suspect that melting it might change "boil off" some of the
alloying elements. ( Which welding rods allow for ? )

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

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Re: Press fit lube - use castor!!! - it'll damned near cure cancer too!

2009-12-08T05:08:02Z

Just to bring this one back.

If you have any doubts as to whether this works or not then I suggest giving
it a go.

Not a squeak or a bang......the parts just slid together lovely :-)

Regards,

Matt.
www.tyga-performance.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Matt Patterson
To: mc-engine@...
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: Press fit lube - use castor!!! - it'll damned near cure cancer
too!

Greg,

An interesting post. I have to press a crank together over the weekend, so
I'll give this a try. I don't have any R40 either, but I do have some
Silkolene castor oil, so that'll be my weapon of choice.

Regards,

Matt.
www.tyga-performance.com

----- Original Message -----
From: gregsummerton
To: mc-engine@...
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Press fit lube - use castor!!! - it'll damned near cure cancer
too!

Rob,
I was taught to use castor oil (Castrol R40 no more in Oz of course, but
there are others out there, Morris, Rock etc) by the old guys who taught me
how to manufacture cranks, crankpins and shafts from scratch.

Yes, make the end of the shaft somewhat bullnosed and fine grind/polish,
then smear/wipe surfaces with castor and you will be amazed at how quietly
and smoothly the pin/shaft will slip into the wheel.
If you've done similar using mineral or synthetic oils before, then you will
be worried, cos it goes in too smoothly.

When I was using a mate's press, while I was awaiting delivery of my new
one, he stopped me pressing after a short while and declared I had the wrong
interference or something and proceeded to check my hole and shaft....then
rather puzzled, he said if anything I had too much interference...and what
was that I'd used as a lube?

Ever since then he has used castor for pressing all pins and shafts as I do.

Case hardened pins into 4140 heat treated wheels with 4 to 4 and a half thou
interference do not creak and groan and do not move in large jumps, it is
possible to sneak up on riod clearances in my press when using castor.

Recently I was pressing a former into an alloy tube to produce a replica JAP
pushrod tube. I used ordinary engine oil because I'd nearly run out of
castor. But after having the aluminium pick up in several tubes I switched
to castor. Magic.

Seriously, don't just take my word for it and move on, try it, everyone, you
will be surprised.

Wait! There's more!.....After you've tried castor for a few things like
this, then if you are racing old pre-1960 bikes, think very carefully about
what type of oil you use in them....
Cheers,
Greg

--- In mc-engine@..., "ausrobg" <ausrobg@...> wrote:

> What lube do you guys use for axles and crankpins in soft flywheels ?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rob
>

EI Carb

2009-12-08T02:00:36Z

Does anyone have an exploded view and a setup procedure for an EI Carb?

I have a 38 mm one going on my SR500.

Thanks Wallace.

TTXGP dates

2009-12-07T21:32:12Z

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/12/07/ttxgp_schedule_appears/

Anybody planning an entry?

-oo
Brent Prindle
BrentP@...

used CNC machining centres auction UK

2009-12-04T23:45:08Z

Hi folks,

I thought to post a new one, as some meight be interested business
related to those machineries and shouldn't miss that content 'cause of
the thread names:
http://www.go-dove.com/event-13842/Dymag+Racing+UK+Ltd/

It's from Dymag Racing UK been in a bad situation so to say ....
One of those very rare to find companies producing carbon fibre wheels.

Cheers
Carsten (Aachen-Germany)

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Re: Conrod material - a different scenario

2009-12-02T17:13:39Z

The link there somewhere mentions that the rods were "found to have been
machined with the bigend eye not centrallized - one side was thinner" - and
cracked. Maybe with excessive revs ??

----------

http://www.halfofmylife.com/2009/11/13/aprilia-rsv-boom/

Re: Conrod material - a different scenario

2009-12-01T18:32:39Z

>Speaking of conrods
>
><http://www.halfofmylife.com/2009/11/13/aprilia-rsv-boom/>http://www.halfofmylife.com/2009/11/13/aprilia-rsv-boom/

I was talking to a bike journo at a party on the weekend ( who had
tested the bike in Australia ) and he told me that the consensus is
that one of the Aprilia techs decided to increase the redline on all
the test bikes to impress the test ride journalists, and they paid
the price.

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Re: Conrod material - a different scenario

2009-12-01T17:07:01Z

Speaking of conrods

http://www.halfofmylife.com/2009/11/13/aprilia-rsv-boom/

Cam/Valve software

2009-11-29T18:29:10Z

http://www.andrewsproducts.com/cam_design/index.htm

Some freeware for shim under bucket and finger follower style.

Chris Cosentino
Cosentino Engineering
812 Jersey Ave. 3rd Floor
Jersey City, NJ 07310
201-392-1400
fax 484-340-1400
www.cosentinoengineering.com

Re: Conrod material

2009-11-28T16:30:44Z

>It looks like Hot Rods uses 8620 for both rods and crankshafts in their
>replacement roller bearing crankshafts.

8620 is good stuff, but it is a specialist forging steel, it has good
"hot flow" properties, which is why it is a popular "mass production"
OEM material for rods.

So whilst you can obviously still make a "one off" out of 8620; it's
a bit like going to a doctor with a toothache, they'll be able to fix it
but you're better off going to a dentist.

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Re: Conrod material

2009-11-28T08:17:27Z

Wallace,

It looks like Hot Rods uses 8620 for both rods and crankshafts in their
replacement roller bearing crankshafts.

http://www.hotrodsproducts.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cFAQ.view&faqc
ategoryid=23

a friend of mine researched steels for making new rods/crankshaft parts
for his Honda CR77 (and possibly also the 250-6 and 500-4 as he's
done work on them too) and he told me that SAE 9310 VIMVAR was
determined to be the appropriate stuff. IIRC he said that he had a rod
and/or flywheel analyzed. I think 9310 is like 8620 but a step up in
properties.

http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/documents/datasheets/GEN-3.pdf

has some info on various high performance steels

http://www.latrobesteel.com/technical_datasheets.cfm

is a page that lets you select product data sheets for materials from
Latrobe Steel like 9310 and Nitralloy.

cheers,
Michael

Re: Conrod material

2009-11-28T06:47:02Z

>The big end is 1 mm undersize and 0.5 mm thicker than required.
>Copper plate the whole thing.
>Bore the BE 0.7 mm, removing the copper and leaving .3 mm to finish
>grind after case hardening.
>Same with sides.

Yep.

>What about finish grinding the little end after hardening or is the
>Phosphor Bronze the correct way to go ?

Either, I do both depending on application. I leave the LE 0.5mm
U/S before copper plating, then bore it to size after hardening. So
either leave it soft for service or fit Phos Bronze bush.
_______________________________________________________

This is what I do now, but I know of people that leave only 0.10mm
in BE bore & sides, get it copper plated then just rub the copper
out of the BE bore with "wet & dry" and get it hardened. They figure
that a good quality hone will pull any ovality out of the hardened bore
but I think it's pushing the friendship. I leave a bit more both for boring
after Cu plating and after hardening ( I grind then hone the BE ).

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Re: Nikasil Cast Iron Bore

2009-11-28T06:34:01Z

>Could there be any problems with the Aly/Nikasil/Cast iron interface ?

My instinct would be to remove it and have a clean, square
and round bore to put the C.I. liner in; but I've never thought
about this case before.

It would probably work OK leaving the Nikasil, as long as the
shrink fit was snug ( full contact ).

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Nikasil Cast Iron Bore

2009-11-27T21:48:57Z

Re-sleeving a 125 to 100 cc

The customer said to leave the Nikasil in the barrel and insert the new cast iron sleeve into it.

Could there be any problems with the Aly/Nikasil/Cast iron interface ?

I would remove the Nikasil, but the customer is "always right ".

Any comments ?

PS Nitric acid removes Nikasil.

Cheers Wallace

Re: Conrod material

2009-11-27T21:44:08Z

> Leave 1.0mm material in BE bore and 0.5mm on sides of BE,
> then copper plate the whole thing, doesn't need to be too thick.
> Bore another 0.70mm out of bore and take 0.25 off each side,
> then get a 1.0mm deep case done, to 58-60 HR

To make sure I have this correct,

The big end is 1 mm undersize and 0.5 mm thicker than required.
Copper plate the whole thing.
Bore the BE 0.7 mm, removing the copper and leaving .3 mm to finish grind after case hardening.
Same with sides.

What about finish grinding the little end after hardening or is the Phosphor Bronze the correct way to go ?

Re: Conrod material

2009-11-27T20:16:27Z

> >What material do you recommend for a conrod with a roller bigend ? I
> >was thinking EN36A, same as gear material.
>
>That's what I use, or EN39B if you can get it, both re high core strength,
>stable in HT and specialist case hardening steels.

Leave 1.0mm material in BE bore and 0.5mm on sides of BE,
then copper plate the whole thing, doesn't need to be too thick.
Bore another 0.70mm out of bore and take 0.25 off each side,
then get a 1.0mm deep case done, to 58-60 HRC.

You won't have a problem.

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Re: Conrod material

2009-11-27T19:27:39Z

>PS If you haven't seen the movie,(World Fastest Indian) you are
>missing out on what MC-Engine is all about. A Must See.

Agreed, up to 6 viewings now I think, most recent 2 weeks ago on TV here.

>What material do you recommend for a conrod with a roller bigend ? I
>was thinking EN36A, same as gear material.

That's what I use, or EN39B if you can get it, both re high core strength,
stable in HT and specialist case hardening steels.

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Conrod material

2009-11-27T16:26:19Z

I know I come from New Zealand, but I'm buggered if I going to spend 3 months making a conrod out of a caterpllier back axil, as Burt Munro did.

PS If you haven't seen the movie,(World Fastest Indian) you are missing out on what MC-Engine is all about. A Must See.

What material do you recommend for a conrod with a roller bigend ? I was thinking EN36A, same as gear material. It is for an SR500.

I was thinking about a 2 mm longer crank, to get a better head,piston squish and sleeving the little end with phosphor Bronze as the steel to steel always seems to pickup.

Cheers Wallace

Re: 2 stoke Sleeve Pattern

2009-11-27T16:20:13Z

Results of the 2 stroke sleeve.

The barrel is from one side of a water cooled RG250 being sleeved down to 100 cc. I made a .08 mm interference fit. Heated the barrel and dropped in the sleeve. Poured concentrated nitric down the ports and left it for 2-3 minutes.

Washed and dried the barrel and reheated it to drop the sleeve out. At 160 deg C it did not budge so we had to press it out. There were a few marks in the bore but nothing much a quick hone didn't clean out.

The nitric made quite clear darkening on the sleeve where the ports were. Quite usable. I partly milled the holes, the customer is going to finish them off and I'll reinsert the sleeve when he is finished. That was yesterday. Today I had another bike builder drop off his barrel for the same process.

Cheers Wallace

what should I aim for?

2009-11-27T06:18:48Z

the list seem quiet so I thought of throwing out some new developments on our scooter drag bike. I asked previously to what other means of starting a scoot with CVT, well I took the electric starter approach. Using a huge truck battery (12vdc), the stock starter can't fight the very high compression, I need to turn the crankshaft and had the piston on TDC so it could turn over, but it wasn't able to make it go. So I tried the 24v approach, and voila it did start! But it only took quite a few times only until I fried the thing. So I hurriedly ordered a supposedly "hi-torque" racing starters capable up to 300cc (ours is only 260cc). BTW, the stock displacement of this project scoot is 115cc 4stroke.

Next day came, and the racing starter was there. I installed it without a hitch. Then hooked up again our truck's (running) 12v battery, sadly it did not turn over just like the stock. I called the supplier and suggested a fatter wire and to rotate the crankshaft to TDC. So I did as instructed, but nope still it did not budge. So I again resorted to 24v, and like a fool on drugs, it turned over the motor hurriedly like a mad man, and it started.

Made it run a few times around the block, and still so many things to fine tune. First I need to place the oil scraper rings 'cause it smoked so bad. Second, the CVT needs more tweaking cause the motor can give more top speed. And lastly, I was able to check the compression pressure and 150psi was the highest I could get. I've read somewhere that for racing applications, such figure is quite on the low side. The question now is what compression pressure should I aim for and what are my options in attaining that?

I'm thinking of ditching the cork base gasket so I could get more compression (that would be about 13.50:1 more or less currently its at 12.20:1) at the same I could close up the squish band to around 1mm (currently at around 2mm)...but with this approach i'm sure it would be pushing the boundaries of sticking to pump premium gasoline.

oh yeah, I haven't fried (yet) the "racing starter".... so i'm hoping you could shed some light on that matter too...

cheers guys,

ariel

Re: matched crankcases

2009-11-23T02:55:24Z

I had an early Z-1 which had the crankshaft and mainshaft centers so out of location tolerance that the clutch to crank gear lash rattled like a Ducati dry clutch. The bores were made while the cases were assembled so they were round and the proper diameter but the centers were too far apart by about .007" and Kawasaki didn't have select fit clutch hubs.

Ken A

________________________________
From: Sid Young <sid.young@...>
To: mc-engine@...
Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 4:04:03 PM
Subject: Re: matched crankcases

In all my Kawasaki "Z" series manual, it state the cases must be
matched as everything is line bored, that includes cam shaft journals.

Sid

On 11/23/09, Ian <iwd@...> wrote:

>
>>With modern equipment and QC is there any reason for the
>>manufacturers to not slap any right side case together with any left one
>>as they roll off the production line? Is that what they are all doing?
>
>
> The only feature I'd be worried about is the base gasket deck,
> I'd be very surprised if they weren't still machining that surface
> with the case 1/2's bolted together.
>
> OK, with modern MC tools, you could probably get away with
> MC'ing them separately, but it would become a very tight
> tolerance ( in 2 planes & 1 linear ) as separate parts when as
> a pair, it becomes much less critical.
>
>
>
> Cheers IAN
>
>
> See www.drysdalev8. com for :
> - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
> - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
> - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
> - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler
>
>
>

--

Sid
http://z900. piczo.com
http://z900collecto r.multiply. com

Re: matched crankcases

2009-11-23T02:40:48Z

Modern machinery is capable of making surfaces which are much better than is required but if the operators are not qualified that negates everything. Twenty five years ago I worked on the American Honda factory racers and there were three distinctly different batches of cylinder heads. All dimensions on each of the sets were identical as they ran from the same CNC code but they had three different offsets as they were obviously made on three different machines with a mounting fixture on each. These fixtures had likely been made on one of the machines then unclamped and moved to the other machines. The three tolerance groupings were within .0005" within each group but the three groups were about .0060" apart.

Also, the cam bearing bores in some of the Honda RFV OHC engines are cut with a ball end mill where there is no access for line boring. The close tolerance cam bearing pieces are all individually made and the tolerance is tighter than the bearing clearance but the 6mm mounting holes for the molded rubber and aluminum inlet manifold were all over the place and the manifold from one engine wouldn't fit on another so those operations were likely done on a worn out manual machine. The Q/C disparity was amazing but the engineers knew what tolerance to apply. Today, none of the major manufactures can afford not to have machinery which is better than what was available 25 years ago.

If the fixturing is good, the parts are all but indistinguishable even if the operator can't read or walk and chew gum at the same time.

Ken A

________________________________
From: Matt Patterson <matt@...>
To: mc-engine@...
Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 1:31:18 AM
Subject: Re: matched crankcases

I deal with a lot of NSR250 cases and they have numbered upper and lower
case halves, which are machined as a pair at the factory. I've offered them
up together in the past (different numbers) and although it was pretty close
there was a definite mismatch in the bearing housing. This particular
model's upper and lower halves are not available separately.

Regards,

Matt.
www.tyga-performanc e.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Augustine
To: mc-engine@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: matched crankcases

With machining as it was 20 or more years ago, I'd be surprised if the
tolerances were as tight then even with final machining after assembling
halves as they are now with modern self monitoring and correcting CNC
machines. Line boring the old fashioned way is not easy or accurate and
with stepped diameters, grooves or to steps, the time and operator expense
required to make a few good pieces per day is asking for disappointment and
bankruptcy. A modern low time high quality CNC mill can hold split tenths
of thousandths of inches on size, location and surface finish plus index non
parallel surfaces more accurately than rigid jigs plus self correct from
measurements while still on the machine. There are often bigger variances
from distortions during aging of the parts which occur after machining.

Ken A

From: Ian <iwd@...>
To: mc-engine@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 3:33:48 PM
Subject: Re: matched crankcases

>With modern equipment and QC is there any reason for the
>manufacturers to not slap any right side case together with any left one
>as they roll off the production line? Is that what they are all doing?

The only feature I'd be worried about is the base gasket deck,
I'd be very surprised if they weren't still machining that surface
with the case 1/2's bolted together.

OK, with modern MC tools, you could probably get away with
MC'ing them separately, but it would become a very tight
tolerance ( in 2 planes & 1 linear ) as separate parts when as
a pair, it becomes much less critical.

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8. com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Re: matched crankcases

2009-11-23T01:31:18Z

I deal with a lot of NSR250 cases and they have numbered upper and lower
case halves, which are machined as a pair at the factory. I've offered them
up together in the past (different numbers) and although it was pretty close
there was a definite mismatch in the bearing housing. This particular
model's upper and lower halves are not available separately.

Regards,

Matt.
www.tyga-performance.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Augustine
To: mc-engine@...
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: matched crankcases

With machining as it was 20 or more years ago, I'd be surprised if the
tolerances were as tight then even with final machining after assembling
halves as they are now with modern self monitoring and correcting CNC
machines. Line boring the old fashioned way is not easy or accurate and
with stepped diameters, grooves or to steps, the time and operator expense
required to make a few good pieces per day is asking for disappointment and
bankruptcy. A modern low time high quality CNC mill can hold split tenths
of thousandths of inches on size, location and surface finish plus index non
parallel surfaces more accurately than rigid jigs plus self correct from
measurements while still on the machine. There are often bigger variances
from distortions during aging of the parts which occur after machining.

Ken A

From: Ian <iwd@...>
To: mc-engine@...
Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 3:33:48 PM
Subject: Re: matched crankcases

>With modern equipment and QC is there any reason for the
>manufacturers to not slap any right side case together with any left one
>as they roll off the production line? Is that what they are all doing?

The only feature I'd be worried about is the base gasket deck,
I'd be very surprised if they weren't still machining that surface
with the case 1/2's bolted together.

OK, with modern MC tools, you could probably get away with
MC'ing them separately, but it would become a very tight
tolerance ( in 2 planes & 1 linear ) as separate parts when as
a pair, it becomes much less critical.

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8. com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Re: matched crankcases

2009-11-22T22:28:06Z

With machining as it was 20 or more years ago, I'd be surprised if the tolerances were as tight then even with final machining after assembling halves as they are now with modern self monitoring and correcting CNC machines. Line boring the old fashioned way is not easy or accurate and with stepped diameters, grooves or to steps, the time and operator expense required to make a few good pieces per day is asking for disappointment and bankruptcy. A modern low time high quality CNC mill can hold split tenths of thousandths of inches on size, location and surface finish plus index non parallel surfaces more accurately than rigid jigs plus self correct from measurements while still on the machine. There are often bigger variances from distortions during aging of the parts which occur after machining.

Ken A

________________________________
From: Ian <iwd@...>
To: mc-engine@...
Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 3:33:48 PM
Subject: Re: matched crankcases

>With modern equipment and QC is there any reason for the
>manufacturers to not slap any right side case together with any left one
>as they roll off the production line? Is that what they are all doing?

The only feature I'd be worried about is the base gasket deck,
I'd be very surprised if they weren't still machining that surface
with the case 1/2's bolted together.

OK, with modern MC tools, you could probably get away with
MC'ing them separately, but it would become a very tight
tolerance ( in 2 planes & 1 linear ) as separate parts when as
a pair, it becomes much less critical.

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8. com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Re: matched crankcases

2009-11-22T16:39:41Z

>In all my Kawasaki "Z" series manual, it state the cases must be
>matched as everything is line bored, that includes cam shaft journals.

Of course, horizontally split multi cyl cases are a different animal,
I was talking vertically split singles.

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Re: matched crankcases

2009-11-22T16:04:03Z

In all my Kawasaki "Z" series manual, it state the cases must be
matched as everything is line bored, that includes cam shaft journals.

Sid

On 11/23/09, Ian <iwd@...> wrote:

>
>>With modern equipment and QC is there any reason for the
>>manufacturers to not slap any right side case together with any left one
>>as they roll off the production line? Is that what they are all doing?
>
>
> The only feature I'd be worried about is the base gasket deck,
> I'd be very surprised if they weren't still machining that surface
> with the case 1/2's bolted together.
>
> OK, with modern MC tools, you could probably get away with
> MC'ing them separately, but it would become a very tight
> tolerance ( in 2 planes & 1 linear ) as separate parts when as
> a pair, it becomes much less critical.
>
>
>
> Cheers IAN
>
>
> See www.drysdalev8.com for :
> - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
> - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
> - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
> - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler
>
>
>

--

Sid
http://z900.piczo.com
http://z900collector.multiply.com

Re: matched crankcases

2009-11-22T15:33:48Z

>With modern equipment and QC is there any reason for the
>manufacturers to not slap any right side case together with any left one
>as they roll off the production line? Is that what they are all doing?

The only feature I'd be worried about is the base gasket deck,
I'd be very surprised if they weren't still machining that surface
with the case 1/2's bolted together.

OK, with modern MC tools, you could probably get away with
MC'ing them separately, but it would become a very tight
tolerance ( in 2 planes & 1 linear ) as separate parts when as
a pair, it becomes much less critical.

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Re: matched crankcases

2009-11-22T11:43:23Z

> With modern equipment and QC is there any reason for the
> manufacturers to not slap any right side case together with any left one
> as they roll off the production line? Is that what they are all doing?

One anecdote, last year I tried to mix'n'match cases from a 93 DR350.
Base surface had a step close to 1mm. Don't know about bearing axises.

Cheers

matched crankcases

2009-11-22T11:33:34Z

Are they a practice of the past?

I've been seeing individual case halves being offered on eBay. A cruise
through parts fiche for different 250 2T and 4T MX bikes shows Honda
appears to have offered individual case halves from at least the mid
1980s, Yamaha offers them from the early 1990s, but Kawasaki and
Suzuki tend to sell sets. I don't know if that last is because K&S prefer
to do that for inventory purposes, and not because they need to be kept
in matched sets.

With modern equipment and QC is there any reason for the
manufacturers to not slap any right side case together with any left one
as they roll off the production line? Is that what they are all doing?

cheers,
Michael

Re: [FF] OT V-4 carb installation tricks

2009-11-22T09:02:46Z

The hot tip on the boots, it turns out, is to boil them, then grease
them w/Vaseline. Hot Air gun would help too, I'm sure. We ended up
removing the metal band clamps entirely, to permit max boot flex. Also
- and here's the one that REALLY works - loosen the 8 screws holding
carbs to the alum. plenum one turn or a bit more; this allows enough
movement at the bottom/aft (engine) ends while still retaining the
rubber air-horn flanges in their grooves. Billy Carr of Texas, the
V-65 guru, also shared with me the process of re-expanding the shrunken
air horns by heating them in hot water, then placing them over a greased
shot glass or champagne glass to a depth giving the proper diameter;
this worked very well for me w/air horns in place, using cheapo (i.e.
thick glass) champagne glasses from The Dollar Store. Once the upper
flanges were seated I sealed them with LocTite 420 (the penetrating
grade) which allowed ez & accurate attachment of the carbs to said
plenum - and also permits the above critical step of leaving the screws
slightly loose until the carb spigots are happily home in the head
boots. Oh, assemble the cables to the removed bracket first, then
attach said bkt. Slot the lower screw hole and put that screw loosely in
place, that way you only have to locate the upper screw. Extra long 3mm
& 4mm hex keys are essential for these two scews, unless you really want
to suffer [:oj

(Arthur, by now you know most of this, but worth sharing just in case
anyone else delves into these beasties - esp. since they are narrow
enough for FF use.)
Ernie

Arthur Middleton wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Ernest Buckler wrote:
> > Just a quick update - the previously V. cruddy Magna carbs are now
> > detoxed, retuned, AND reinstalled...what a three-fisted monkey-f**k job
> > that was, I can't even figure how it was done easily at the factory by
> > assembly techs having full access to the bare engine before putting it
> > in the frame; typical 90° issue, w/carb spigots needing to be
> > simultaneously aligned with and seated into boots aiming in opposing
> > directions, duh. *Stupid* design. (Mumble epithets here) Will finish
> > cleaning the fuel tank and hooking up lines Monday and fire it up. Just
> > in time for the first snow of the season. Mumble again....
> > Ernie
> >
> >
> Ha, ha. I can relate to the carb issues. The 1985 model VF500 is the
> same. If you can get them, new rubber boots help a lot. The old ones
> harden with age and heat. If you lubricate the rubber boots before
> fitting them it makes subsequent removal much easier too.
>
> Arthur.
>
>