Mac IIfx compatible NuBus video card.

[Ian Finder]

So my trusty Mac IIfx running A/UX just tanked-- no video to speak
of... just the Mac "bong." Assuming the nasty, large, poorly
integrated E-Machines video card is to blame. Anyone got a spare NuBus
video card kicking around? also does anyone have the Mac (DB-15?)
monitor to standard PeeCee HD-15 adapter?

Thanks,

--
   Ian Finder
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[r.stricklin-2]

On Oct 25, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Ian Finder wrote:

> So my trusty Mac IIfx running A/UX just tanked-- no video to speak
> of... just the Mac "bong." Assuming the nasty, large, poorly
> integrated E-Machines video card is to blame. Anyone got a spare NuBus
> video card kicking around? also does anyone have the Mac (DB-15?)
> monitor to standard PeeCee HD-15 adapter?

You said, "just tanked", suggesting it was just recently working, was  
powered down, and then would not come back up.

But this is the classic "failure" mode of having a large system  
memory. With 128 MB the IIfx will chime, then appear to do nothing (no  
video) for several minutes before completing memory test and  
continuing to boot normally. Even with 16 MB the test time is  
noticeable. If there is eventually hard drive activity, but still no  
video, that's a good sign that there is a graphics or monitor problem.  
Otherwise I'd be tempted to consider a different fault.

ok
bear
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[Ian Finder]

Well what had happened is the hard disk went bad, so I went to swap in
another. With no disc connected, within a few seconds the floppy-disc
question icon would appear. So, I plug in the new drive, hit the power
switch and "Bong" then... "Sad mac chimes." Turns out the drive I
swapped in hates life and is dead.

But now, when I hit power, I get the bong, the floppies eject, then nothing.

What fault do you think this could be? I'm scared the thing is fried,
and out of my element as Mac II boxes aren't my cup of tea
hardware-wise. More comfortable with SGI boxen.

Thanks,

-- Ian

P.S. Tried reseating and removing a bank of ram already. Also reseated the ROM.

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 2:49 PM, r.stricklin <bear@...> wrote:

> On Oct 25, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Ian Finder wrote:
>
>> So my trusty Mac IIfx running A/UX just tanked-- no video to speak
>> of... just the Mac "bong." Assuming the nasty, large, poorly
>> integrated E-Machines video card is to blame. Anyone got a spare NuBus
>> video card kicking around? also does anyone have the Mac (DB-15?)
>> monitor to standard PeeCee HD-15 adapter?
>
> You said, "just tanked", suggesting it was just recently working, was
> powered down, and then would not come back up.
>
> But this is the classic "failure" mode of having a large system memory. With
> 128 MB the IIfx will chime, then appear to do nothing (no video) for several
> minutes before completing memory test and continuing to boot normally. Even
> with 16 MB the test time is noticeable. If there is eventually hard drive
> activity, but still no video, that's a good sign that there is a graphics or
> monitor problem. Otherwise I'd be tempted to consider a different fault.
>
> ok
> bear
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[r.stricklin-2]

On Oct 25, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Ian Finder wrote:

> What fault do you think this could be? I'm scared the thing is fried,
> and out of my element as Mac II boxes aren't my cup of tea
> hardware-wise. More comfortable with SGI boxen.

You put in a new drive? I'm inclined to think you might be having an  
infinite cycle of SCSI bus resets caused by insufficient goats' blood.  
It may eventually give you a display if you wait 20 or 30 minutes, if  
so, but it won't be useful in any other way until you fix whatever  
termination/filter issues you have.

ok
bear
_______________________________________________
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[Ian Finder]

Except if I remove the drive entirely video still won't come back like
it used to.

I'll go sacrifice another cow to the IIfx scsi gods but I don't know
why it just won't come up like it used to. I'm gonna go look for
another terminator in the closet.

-- Ian

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 3:12 PM, r.stricklin <bear@...> wrote:

> On Oct 25, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Ian Finder wrote:
>
>> What fault do you think this could be? I'm scared the thing is fried,
>> and out of my element as Mac II boxes aren't my cup of tea
>> hardware-wise. More comfortable with SGI boxen.
>
> You put in a new drive? I'm inclined to think you might be having an
> infinite cycle of SCSI bus resets caused by insufficient goats' blood. It
> may eventually give you a display if you wait 20 or 30 minutes, if so, but
> it won't be useful in any other way until you fix whatever
> termination/filter issues you have.
>
> ok
> bear
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Ian Finder]

Just used a known good (as far as that flies in IIfx terminology) scsi
bus config. Nada.

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Ian Finder <ian.finder@...> wrote:

> Except if I remove the drive entirely video still won't come back like
> it used to.
>
> I'll go sacrifice another cow to the IIfx scsi gods but I don't know
> why it just won't come up like it used to. I'm gonna go look for
> another terminator in the closet.
>
> -- Ian
>
> On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 3:12 PM, r.stricklin <bear@...> wrote:
>> On Oct 25, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Ian Finder wrote:
>>
>>> What fault do you think this could be? I'm scared the thing is fried,
>>> and out of my element as Mac II boxes aren't my cup of tea
>>> hardware-wise. More comfortable with SGI boxen.
>>
>> You put in a new drive? I'm inclined to think you might be having an
>> infinite cycle of SCSI bus resets caused by insufficient goats' blood. It
>> may eventually give you a display if you wait 20 or 30 minutes, if so, but
>> it won't be useful in any other way until you fix whatever
>> termination/filter issues you have.
>>
>> ok
>> bear
>> _______________________________________________
>> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Ian Finder]

Yikes... What are the odds the bad drive murdered the SCSI controller?

-- Ian

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Ian Finder <ian.finder@...> wrote:

> Just used a known good (as far as that flies in IIfx terminology) scsi
> bus config. Nada.
>
> On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Ian Finder <ian.finder@...> wrote:
>> Except if I remove the drive entirely video still won't come back like
>> it used to.
>>
>> I'll go sacrifice another cow to the IIfx scsi gods but I don't know
>> why it just won't come up like it used to. I'm gonna go look for
>> another terminator in the closet.
>>
>> -- Ian
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 3:12 PM, r.stricklin <bear@...> wrote:
>>> On Oct 25, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Ian Finder wrote:
>>>
>>>> What fault do you think this could be? I'm scared the thing is fried,
>>>> and out of my element as Mac II boxes aren't my cup of tea
>>>> hardware-wise. More comfortable with SGI boxen.
>>>
>>> You put in a new drive? I'm inclined to think you might be having an
>>> infinite cycle of SCSI bus resets caused by insufficient goats' blood. It
>>> may eventually give you a display if you wait 20 or 30 minutes, if so, but
>>> it won't be useful in any other way until you fix whatever
>>> termination/filter issues you have.
>>>
>>> ok
>>> bear
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[gsm-2]

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 02:39:46PM -0700, Ian Finder wrote:
>So my trusty Mac IIfx running A/UX just tanked-- no video to speak
>of... just the Mac "bong." Assuming the nasty, large, poorly
>integrated E-Machines video card is to blame. Anyone got a spare NuBus
>video card kicking around? also does anyone have the Mac (DB-15?)
>monitor to standard PeeCee HD-15 adapter?

Replace the battery.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@...  N3OWJ/4X1GM
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Weiss Andrew]

On Oct 26, 2009, at 12:48 AM, gsm@... wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 02:39:46PM -0700, Ian Finder wrote:
>> So my trusty Mac IIfx running A/UX just tanked-- no video to speak
>> of... just the Mac "bong." Assuming the nasty, large, poorly
>> integrated E-Machines video card is to blame. Anyone got a spare  
>> NuBus
>> video card kicking around? also does anyone have the Mac (DB-15?)
>> monitor to standard PeeCee HD-15 adapter?
>
> Replace the battery.
>
> Geoff.
>

and then CMD-OPTION-P-R for 5 boot chimes... should do the trick.  I  
don't think the II family had a logic board reset button.

Andrew
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[Ian Finder]

Just did both to no avail. Starting to get worried...

-- Ian F

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Weiss Andrew <rumbeard@...> wrote:

> On Oct 26, 2009, at 12:48 AM, gsm@... wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 02:39:46PM -0700, Ian Finder wrote:
>>>
>>> So my trusty Mac IIfx running A/UX just tanked-- no video to speak
>>> of... just the Mac "bong." Assuming the nasty, large, poorly
>>> integrated E-Machines video card is to blame. Anyone got a spare NuBus
>>> video card kicking around? also does anyone have the Mac (DB-15?)
>>> monitor to standard PeeCee HD-15 adapter?
>>
>> Replace the battery.
>>
>> Geoff.
>>
>
> and then CMD-OPTION-P-R for 5 boot chimes... should do the trick.  I don't
> think the II family had a logic board reset button.
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
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[Mark Benson-2]

On 26 Oct 2009, at 10:22, Ian Finder wrote:

> Just did both to no avail. Starting to get worried...

Might want to remove the main logic board and check the caps for  
leakage. It's an issue that plagued a lot of Mac II and similar era  
Macs.

Cheap electrolytic caps, gotta love em :)


--
Mark Benson

My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson

"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
_______________________________________________
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[gsm-2]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 11:34:32AM +0000, Mark Benson wrote:

> Might want to remove the main logic board and check the caps for  
> leakage. It's an issue that plagued a lot of Mac II and similar era  
> Macs.

While you are at it, make sure that you did not disturb the RAM, etc.

Just out of curiosity what do you do with it? Lots of computers ran AU/X and
these days finding one should not be too difficult, and I expect that they
will all be free or close to it.

I recently lent a 15 pin Mac to VGA adapter to someone to use on a PPC Mac,
and he had trouble with it. His Lenovo CRT monitor refused to work at all
with it (the first time I had ever heard of such a problem) and an LCD
monitor would work for a minute then a message from the monitor itself would
come on the screen telling him to increase the resolution.

In the end he found another CRT monitor which worked.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@...  N3OWJ/4X1GM
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Nate-30]

> I recently lent a 15 pin Mac to VGA adapter to someone to use on a PPC Mac,
> and he had trouble with it. His Lenovo CRT monitor refused to work at all
> with it (the first time I had ever heard of such a problem) and an LCD
> monitor would work for a minute then a message from the monitor itself
> would come on the screen telling him to increase the resolution.
>
> In the end he found another CRT monitor which worked.

That's one of two issues.  Either a sync-on-green issue, or a resolution
issue.

Until the late-edition Quadra line, Mac video output was sync-on-green,
and not all LCD screens support it, since composite sync is much more
common now.

And regarding resolutions, back in the day before multisync monitors,
Apple used to have a monitor line that topped out with a 21" CRT that ran
at 1152x870, a 16" CRT that ran at 832x624, and a 13" CRT that ran at
640x480, all of which are 4:3 resolutions.  Other than 640x480, common PC
resolutions are different, like 800x600, 1024x768, and 1280x1024 (which is
a 5:4, not 4:3 resolution!)  I think it's only the Macs that do composite
sync that can display those PC resolutions as well - it all happened
around the time Apple stopped using Trinitron tubes exclusively and
started to make cheap, entry-level computers and peripherals.  Some
third-party Mac video cards had support for some of those PC resolutions
as well.

A good Mac DB-15 to VGA adapter will have DIP switches and/or dials to set
resolution capability for the monitor you're hooking up.

Viewsonic has a good track record for releasing LCDs that are compatible
with sync-on-green.  Whether a given LCD scaling engine can cope with the
"unusual" Mac resolutions of 832x624 and 1152x870 is another story.

- Nate
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[stephen price]

I have one of those adapters with the dip switches - where do I send it?

regards
steve

>
> A good Mac DB-15 to VGA adapter will have DIP switches
> and/or dials to set
> resolution capability for the monitor you're hooking up.
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[William Enestvedt]

I have an adpater with a dial and DIP switches; the center of the dial
bears a bas relief of a cracked bell. (We called then "liberty bell
adapters" back in the mid-90s.)

The face reads:
__________________________________________________
Dial   Resolution       Output
A      Open             Open
D      1024 x 768       19" color
F      832 x 624        16" color
G      640x480/800x600  VGA/SVGA
H      PAL              PAL
J      640 x 480        13"/14" RGB
L      NTSC             NTSC
M      1152 x 870       Apple 2 Page Mono
M[sic] LC 640 x 480     VGA
N      512 x 384        12" RGB
O      640 x 870        Apple Portrait
P      1152 x 870       21" color
For Macs outputting external sync, set DIP switch 7 and 8 and/or 9 to
on. 7=V sync  8=H sync  9=composite.
__________________________________________________

   As Nate points out, there were a lot of resolutions then.

   Is this the adapter you mean? These were great for us on Quadras for
a long time.

- Will
--
Will Enestvedt
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[gsm-2]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 10:56:53AM -0400, William Enestvedt wrote:
>I have an adpater with a dial and DIP switches; the center of the dial
>bears a bas relief of a cracked bell. (We called then "liberty bell
>adapters" back in the mid-90s.)
>   As Nate points out, there were a lot of resolutions then.
>
>   Is this the adapter you mean? These were great for us on Quadras for
>a long time.

This is for Macs made after they went to internal display adaptors. The chips
were developed for the LC, and then used in all Macs. AFAIK, the first Mac II
to use it was the IIci. So the II, IIx, IIcx, etc did not and only had
a few resolutions, while the IIci,IIsi, all the Quadras and all the PPC Macs
up to (but not including) the G3 series used them.

The G3 series Macs that used ATI and other chipsets still worked with the
adaptors.

The IIfx did NOT use that chipset, and I have no idea if they will work
with them.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@...  N3OWJ/4X1GM
_______________________________________________
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[William Enestvedt]

Wow, Geoff, you remember more about my past than I do -- thank goodness
*someone* was paying attention to the details! :7) We had so very few
Macs then at $big_Boston_prepress_shop that *didn't* use onboard video,
that I think your memory must be correct.

   Later, when the clones came out and the G3s and such, video cards
were everywhere. But on the 68k Macs, we were using any CRT we could get
our little hands on -- and adapters like these were vital.

- Will
--
Will Enestvedt
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[Andrew Jones-16]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 10:39:42AM -0400, nate@... wrote:
>
> That's one of two issues.  Either a sync-on-green issue, or a resolution
> issue.
>
> Until the late-edition Quadra line, Mac video output was sync-on-green,
> and not all LCD screens support it, since composite sync is much more
> common now.
>

PCs use separate sync: A pin each for H- and V-sync.

Suns use composite sync: one pin for combined H- and V- sync.

Most SGIs and similar RGB hardware use sync on green: one pin for combined H- and V- sync *and* green.

I don't know which one Macintoshes used. I find support for composite and sync-on-green to be unpredictable in LCDs.  The capability basically comes for free in the ADC chips they use, but it's up in the air whether the designers actually planned to use that capability.  

I once had an HP LCD that would work fine with sync-on-green input, but it would display an error message after 10 or so seconds with no signal on the separate sync pins. That is, an unbypassable monitor firmware error superimposed on the perfect-quality image. Definitely a head-scratcher.

Another trick for sync-on-green: clip the H- and V- sync pins out of the VGA cable you use on the other side of your adapter.  Sometimes adapters tie those to funny places, and their removal will make your monitor behave better.
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[gsm-2]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 01:17:18PM -0400, Andrew Jones wrote:

>I don't know which one Macintoshes used. I find support for
> composite and sync-on-green to be unpredictable in LCDs.  

The adaptors I have (and the chipset) supported:

   Mode 1 is Composite Sync (1)
        Sync signal (15 Way D Male pin 3) connected to 15 Way HD Female pin 13

   Mode 2 is Composite Sync (2)
        15 Way D Male pin 3 & 15 connected to 15 Way HD Female pin 13

   Mode 3 is Sync on V
        15 Way D Male pin 12 connected to 15 Way HD Female pin 14

   Mode 4 is Sync on H
        15 Way D Male pin 15 connected to 15 Way HD Female pin 13

   Mode 5 is Separate Sync
        15 Way D Male pin 12 connected to 15 Way HD Female pin 14
        15 Way D Male pin 15 connected to 15 Way HD Female pin 13

   Mode 6 is Sync on Green

They were designed to support almost anything available at the time.


Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@...  N3OWJ/4X1GM
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[Ian Finder]

Well, the current video card I have in it has a PeeCee style HD-15
connector. I'm using it with a SiliconGraphics-badged multisync
monitor so SOG and all that jazz is accounted for. (One can never own
enough SGI monitors). I suppose which adapter I need will be based on
which NuBus video card I get to replace this one... Which, it sounds
like at this point, may not be the issue at all.

Still, all the caps are clean and sealed, the RAM and ROM seated, the
PRAM is zapped and powered, but the video is still blank- although it
must be carrying a signal because the display wakes up and gets sync.
It was all working within hours of my first post, except I think one
of the PRAM batteries was also shot. (Both have since been replaced
for good measure)

A connected scsi disk does not seem to seek, by the way, when the
machine powers up, but this is likely IIfx scsi voodoo.

To conclude, WTF Apple?!

- Ian F

On 10/26/09, gsm@... <gsm@...> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 01:17:18PM -0400, Andrew Jones wrote:
>
>>I don't know which one Macintoshes used. I find support for
>> composite and sync-on-green to be unpredictable in LCDs.
>
> The adaptors I have (and the chipset) supported:
>
>    Mode 1 is Composite Sync (1)
> Sync signal (15 Way D Male pin 3) connected to 15 Way HD Female pin 13
>
>    Mode 2 is Composite Sync (2)
> 15 Way D Male pin 3 & 15 connected to 15 Way HD Female pin 13
>
>    Mode 3 is Sync on V
> 15 Way D Male pin 12 connected to 15 Way HD Female pin 14
>
>    Mode 4 is Sync on H
> 15 Way D Male pin 15 connected to 15 Way HD Female pin 13
>
>    Mode 5 is Separate Sync
> 15 Way D Male pin 12 connected to 15 Way HD Female pin 14
> 15 Way D Male pin 15 connected to 15 Way HD Female pin 13
>
>    Mode 6 is Sync on Green
>
> They were designed to support almost anything available at the time.
>
>
> Geoff.
>
> --
> Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@...  N3OWJ/4X1GM
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
>

--
Sent from my mobile device

   Ian Finder
   224.659.4204
   ian.finder@...
   finder | solutions - IT on your terms
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