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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On 11 January 2012 21:38, Sonny Pondrom < sonny@...> wrote:
> There are two simple solutions to making the Gregorian calendar repeat each
> year. The first solution, required at the beginning of each year, is to
> always create the first day of the week on a Monday. We do this by making
> the last day of the year (Dec 31) a non-standard day that should be
> celebrated by all nations.
No blank days. Any perpetual calendar needs each year to have a number
of days divisible by 7, or it will fail due to a large proportion of
the world population running their own uninterrupted separate 7 day
week alongside.
--
Christopher Vance
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On the other hand, perhaps when the small proportion of the world
population stops insisting that they know better than everyone else,
there can be honest discussion of the issues involved in any kind of
calendar reform.
Pzed
On 2012-01-12 09:03, Sonny Pondrom wrote:
> Until the so call "large proportion of the world population" stop
> running everyone life, we can use the ISO Week Date calendar to
> schedule events in the current year. The only confusion is the
> starting day each year.
>
> Sonny Pondrom
> sonny@...
> 2012-M01-W2-D4
> "Happy New Year"
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Christopher Vance wrote:
>
> On 11 January 2012 21:38, Sonny Pondrom < sonny@...> wrote:
>> There are two simple solutions to making the Gregorian calendar
>> repeat each
>> year. The first solution, required at the beginning of each year,
>> is to
>> always create the first day of the week on a Monday. We do this by
>> making
>> the last day of the year (Dec 31) a non-standard day that should be
>> celebrated by all nations.
>
> No blank days. Any perpetual calendar needs each year to have a number
> of days divisible by 7, or it will fail due to a large proportion of
> the world population running their own uninterrupted separate 7 day
> week alongside.
>
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
I love it! Well said, Peter! -- Irv
On 2012 Jan 12, at 09:16 , Peter Zilahy Ingerman, PhD wrote:
> On the other hand, perhaps when the small proportion of the world population stops insisting that they know better than everyone else, there can be honest discussion of the issues involved in any kind of calendar reform.
> On 2012-01-12 09:03, Sonny Pondrom wrote:
>> Until the so call "large proportion of the world population" stop running everyone life, we can use the ISO Week Date calendar to schedule events in the current year. The only confusion is the starting day each year.
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On 13 January 2012 04:01, Irv Bromberg < irv.bromberg@...> wrote:
> I love it! Well said, Peter! -- Irv
>
> On 2012 Jan 12, at 09:16 , Peter Zilahy Ingerman, PhD wrote:
>> On the other hand, perhaps when the small proportion of the world population stops insisting that they know better than everyone else, there can be honest discussion of the issues involved in any kind of calendar reform.
>
>> On 2012-01-12 09:03, Sonny Pondrom wrote:
>>> Until the so call "large proportion of the world population" stop running everyone life, we can use the ISO Week Date calendar to schedule events in the current year. The only confusion is the starting day each year.
I would suggest the solution to this issue is to aim solely for
civil/government calendar reform, and to recognise that reform of a
religious calendar can only be attempted in concert with those who
have an involvement in that religion. In fact, there are plenty of
places which already run successfully with parallel calendars. Whether
social events follow the civil or religious calendar will depend for a
particular event on whether those involved have religious connections
or not.
With such a division, an unbroken 7 day civil week is probably more
convenient, but not actually necessary. What is necessary is to permit
workers to choose their working days and modify them at will.
For civil reform, I don't see any scientific or rational reason to
care about the movements of astronomical bodies. Just pick an epoch,
and start a perpetual calendar there. Ignore the sun, moon, stars, and
gods. In fact, why not do everything in powers of 10, or maybe powers
of 32.
--
Christopher Vance
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On 2012 Jan 13, at 02:28 , Christopher Vance wrote: For civil reform, I don't see any scientific or rational reason to care about the movements of astronomical bodies. Just pick an epoch,
and start a perpetual calendar there. Ignore the sun, moon, stars, and gods. In fact, why not do everything in powers of 10, or maybe powers of 32.
Well, the Mayan calendar employed a 260-day cycle, ignoring the skies, despite their astronomical expertise.Living in the tropics, the seasons were probably unimportant to them, and they may have been more interested in Venus than in Moon. The 260-day period is a good approximation to the human gestational period, which the Mayans revered.
The Muslim calendar is unconcerned about the solar cycle, allowing a 10- to 11-day drift each year, the amount by which 12 lunar months is shorter than 1 solar year.
Anyhow, this is exactly why I previously asked what calendar is the reform target.
Is Gregorian calendar to be reformed? That is a Christian solar calendar with a mean year that was selected to approximate the spring equinoctial year, and a 7-day sabbatical cycle. Those are rather basic to the calendar, if they are done away with, then the new calendar is unrelated to the Gregorian calendar, not a reform of the Gregorian calendar but an independent time-keeping device.
-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On 2012-01-13 12:20, Sonny Pondrom wrote:
> The Kodak company used a 13 month calendar for years,
> however as the world became smaller, they had to adopt the standard.
Yes, smaller by one person: they returned to the Gregorian calendar
immediately after George Eastman died on 1932-03-14.
Michael Deckers.
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On 2012 Jan 13, at 08:31 , Irv Bromberg wrote: Is Gregorian calendar to be reformed? That is a Christian solar calendar with a mean year that was selected to approximate the spring equinoctial year, and a 7-day sabbatical cycle. Those are rather basic to the calendar, if they are done away with, then the new calendar is unrelated to the Gregorian calendar, not a reform of the Gregorian calendar but an independent time-keeping device.
Oops, forgot to mention another basic feature of the Gregorian calendar is its Easter computus, a fixed arithmetic lunisolar calendar running in parallel with the solar calendar and used for reckoning most of the ecclesiastical days on the Gregorian calendar. Although Easter and related days wobble over a one-month range on the Gregorian calendar, they have zero long-term drift because the computus mean year is exactly equal to the solar calendar mean year.
A reform calendar could use an independent non-astronomical cycle while continuing to run the Gregorian lunisolar computus for the ecclesiastical events, which would not only wobble but also drift through the calendar.
-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On 2012 Jan 13, at 08:31 , Irv Bromberg wrote: Is Gregorian calendar to be reformed? That is a Christian solar calendar with a mean year that was selected to approximate the spring equinoctial year, and a 7-day sabbatical cycle. Those are rather basic to the calendar, if they are done away with, then the new calendar is unrelated to the Gregorian calendar, not a reform of the Gregorian calendar but an independent time-keeping device.
Oops, forgot to mention another basic feature of the Gregorian calendar is its Easter computus, a fixed arithmetic lunisolar calendar running in parallel with the solar calendar and used for reckoning most of the ecclesiastical days on the Gregorian calendar. Easter and related days wobble over a one-month range on the Gregorian calendar, plus a few extra days on either side because of the constraint that Easter has to be on a Sunday, but they have zero long-term drift because the computus mean year is exactly equal to the Gregorian solar calendar mean year.
A reform calendar could use an independent non-astronomical cycle while continuing to run the Gregorian lunisolar computus for the ecclesiastical events, but in that case they would not only wobble but also substantially drift through the calendar.
-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On 2012 Jan 13, at 08:31 , michael.deckers wrote: On 2012-01-13 12:20, Sonny Pondrom wrote:
The Kodak company used a 13 month calendar for years, however as the world became smaller, they had to adopt the standard.
Yes, smaller by one person: they returned to the Gregorian calendar immediately after George Eastman died on 1932-03-14.
Irv replies: Actually, no, Kodak continued using the 13-month calendar until long after Eastman died, both out of respect for him and because family members continued to run the company, but the 13-month calendar was discontinued at Kodak in 1989. I knew about this because the husband of one of our employees worked at Kodak and experienced using that calendar for industrial scheduling. He was an accountant.
Well before Eastman died, Kodak changed it to a leap week calendar so that at least the weekdays would coincide with the Gregorian calendar. These details were discussed here a few years ago, see:
-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On 2012 Jan 13, at 09:11 , Sonny Pondrom wrote: I would like to see the ISO 8601 Week Date calendar made perpetual. This is based on the Gregorian calendar.
Sonny, you have mentioned that before but it is not clear what you mean by it.
As I previously explained, the ISO 8601 Week Date calendar is a perpetual calendar that starts on the Monday that is closest to Gregorian New Year Day.
There is nothing of importance that is "wrong" with the ISO Week Date calendar except that the handling of holidays and events are undefined -- I am assuming, since nobody responded otherwise to my question about such events on the ISO calendar. Easter (and related dates counted before and after Easter), however, is easy in this case, because the Gregorian Easter is suitable, and could be conveniently reckoned by the method of Dershowitz & Reingold, given in "Calendrical Calculations", 3rd edition (also appeared in earlier editions).
And, as I also previously explained, if you nevertheless want to convert it into a null weekday perpetual leap day calendar that always starts on Monday or whatever weekday you choose, then there is exactly zero chance of that happening as an ISO standard, with zero uncertainty. That could be a different kind of calendar, but it could not be an ISO calendar reform, because the ISO has formally standardized on the 7-day weekly cycle.
You could use it as your own personal calendar, but nobody else will follow it.
-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On 2012-01-13 14:53, Irv Bromberg wrote:
> On 2012 Jan 13, at 08:31 , michael.deckers wrote:
>> they (Kodak] returned to the Gregorian calendar
>> immediately after George Eastman died on 1932-03-14.
>
> Irv replies: Actually, no, Kodak continued using the 13-month calendar
> until long after Eastman died, both out of respect for him and because
> family members continued to run the company, but the 13-month calendar
> was discontinued at Kodak in 1989. I knew about this because the husband
> of one of our employees worked at Kodak and experienced using that
> calendar for industrial scheduling. He was an accountant.
>
> Well before Eastman died, Kodak changed it to a leap week calendar so
> that at least the weekdays would coincide with the Gregorian calendar.
> These details were discussed here a few years ago, see:
>
> http://old.nabble.com/Re%3A-13-month-calendar-at-Kodak-p3899078.html Oops, I had just remembered Lance Latham's post
http://old.nabble.com/Re%3A-New-Earth-Calendar-p3691599.html of 2006-03-31. I was under the impression that the "Kodak
factory calendar" was a different (experimental) beast
altogether. Thanks for the correction.
Michael Deckers.
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
"Sonny Pondrom" wrote:
> You say there are plenty of places which already run successfully with
> parallel calendars. Can you reference an example of such a calendar?
Pretty much anywhere outside the Christian World. Anyplace where the dominant religion is Judaism, or Islam, or Hinduism, or Buddhism, just for starts.
The calendars which successfully run in parallel with the Gregorian Calendar would include the various forms of the Hebrew and Islamic and Hindu and Chinese and Iranian and Indonesian and Zoroastrian (Parsee) Calendars, for example.
-- RDoug
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
Am 13.01.2012 um 14:31 schrieb Irv Bromberg: Well, the Mayan calendar employed a 260-day cycle, ignoring the skies, despite their astronomical expertise.
Hi irv, the 260 day tzolkin is celestial! Metonic cycle + tzolkin = baktun 6940 + 260 = 7200 Sepp Rothwangl www.calendersign.com
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
It's also celestial in that it's the time it takes from zenith to zenith at the Mayan latitude. On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Sepp Rothwangl <calendersign@...> wrote:
Am 13.01.2012 um 14:31 schrieb Irv Bromberg: Well, the Mayan calendar employed a 260-day cycle, ignoring the skies, despite their astronomical expertise.
Hi irv, the 260 day tzolkin is celestial! Metonic cycle + tzolkin = baktun
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On 2012 Jan 13, at 07:20 , Sonny Pondrom wrote: You say there are plenty of places which already run successfully with parallel calendars. Can you reference an example of such a calendar?
The Churches run their ecclesiastical calendars, which for most events are tied to their Easter computus, in parallel with a solar calendar, which is the Gregorian calendar for the western churches, or the Julian or Revised Julian or Ethiopian calendar for the orthodox churches.
In the orient, the traditional lunisolar astronomical calendars are continued in parallel with the Gregorian (commercial) calendar.
In India there are a variety of sidereal or lunisolar calendars that are used in parallel with each other and with the simple fixed arithmetic Indian National Calendar.
In Iran, the modern astronomical Persian calendar is run in parallel with the Muslim strictly lunar calendar.
Mainly in Europe, the ISO calendar is run in parallel with the Gregorian calendar.
Most modern computer operating systems operate an ordinal day count (internal date) in parallel with whatever calendar they employ for user input or display or report output.
Astronomers use several different ordinal day counting schemes: Julian Day Number (JDN), Modified JDN, as well as longer period counts such as Julian centuries (elapsed periods of 36525 days relative to the J2000 epoch) and Julian millennia (elapsed periods of 365250 days relative to the J2000 epoch). They also track time by lunation number, using a variety of starting epochs, such as the Hebrew, Islamic, Goldstine, and Brown lunation number.
-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
Some parts of this message have been removed.
Learn more about Nabble's security policy.
Dear Irv and all calendar reformer, Irv 2012-01-13 wrote: Is Gregorian calendar to be reformed? That is a Christian solar calendar with a mean year that was selected to approximate the spring equinoctial year, and a 7-day sabbatical cycle. Those are rather basic to the calendar. if they are done away with, then the new calendar is unrelated to the Gregorian calendar, not a reform of the Gregorian calendar but an independent time-keeping device. Zeng reply: Yes and no. Yes is that "it is that Gregorian calendar need to be reformed and it has some defects as you wrote". No is that 7 day week is not need for world use civil calandar. A world used civil calendar only need date frame determined by astronomy, but no need other counter numbers determined by artificial cycle which can't be accepted by all people. A world used civil calendar should observe two principles : astronomical law and simplicity. It xhould ovoid cultural divergence. The 7 day is not astronomical cycle and 7 can't divide 365 , so 7 d week only can be used in national calendar but no fit in world calendar. Modern human life really need a short work-rest cycle in calendar , but it can't be a hard continuous cycle like 7 d week . It must be a soft cycle in calendar which are a sublayer in calendar schedule. The length of work-rest and the ratio must select according to developing level of economy and culture. About 30 years ago it's length for most nation is 7 days and the work-rest ratio is 6:1 . Nowaday the ratio become 5:2. Some people want enjoy ratio 4:3, but it seems too low . Number 5 can divide 365,90, and 30. If we use 5 as the work-rest cycle and use work-rest ratio as 3:2, then 5:2>3:2>4:3 ,so 3:2 is a better ratio and 5 is a ideal work-rest cycle. We can take 5 day cycle as a sublayer of 30 day months which can be used as work-rest cycle. It is a soft cycle because a leap day may add to it. Irv in his webpage <hiip://www.sym454.org/symmetry> wrote: Credo: What We Believe We believe that the Gregorian calendar is deficient in the following ways: * Each consecutive Gregorian year starts on a different weekday. This is the most serious deficiency of the Gregorian calendar. If it were impossible to correct this deficiency by adopting a perpetual (perennial) calendar reform then we wouldn't care about the rest of this list. This deficiency causes the dates of holidays and events to shift. Those that fall on a fixed day number in a month fall on a different weekday. Those that fall on the nth occurrence of a specified weekday in a month fall on a different day number. These shifts compel迫使 organizations such as governments, businesses, industries, and academic institutions to consume vast amounts of time, energy, and paper rescheduling annually recurring events just because of the changing weekday-date relationships. Even monthly recurring events are cumbersome to schedule. Easter can land on any gedate from March 22 through April 25, and numerous ecclesistical days counted before and after Easter wander likewise. * The lengths of the Gregorian months follow an illogical, irregular pattern: 31, 28 or 29, 31, 30, 31, 30, 31, 31, 30, 31, 30, 31 days. * When dividing the Gregorian calendar year into 4 groups of 3 months the resulting quarters have unequal day counts and unequal ratios of workdays to weekend days. * Appending the leap day at the end of February causes unfortunate calendrical complexity, because it increments the ordinal day number of every date following February in leap years. This problem could have been avoided by appending the leap day to the end of the year. * The Gregorian calendar mean year is currently almost 12 seconds too long relative to its intended target, the mean northward equinoctial year. * Given a Gregorian date, moderately complicated arithmetic is required to determine the weekday. * The weekday occurrences of the leapdays in each full 400-year Gregorian leap cycle are unequal: Monday=15, Tuesday=13, Wednesday=15, Thursday=13, Friday=14, Saturday=14, and Sunday=13. * Many people are superstitious about bad luck occurring on Friday the 13th. Here we see 8 defects of Gregorian .2~6 are defects from frame structure . 1 and 7~9 are defects from 7 day week. Irv's 454 calendar may dispel all these defects. but it is really a pity that it still keep 7 day week even reduce year to 364 days ,so effect stability of seasons . From Chinese view point these 8 defects lack important two: the start of year is not start of insolating spring and four insolating seaons are not clear showing . If we let a fixed beginning of insolating spring(4th Feb) as start of year ,and keep leap day,then divide year into four calendar seasons based on four solar insolation four seasons ,so we get four seasons near:90,95,90,90 days respectively. Then we can divide year into 12 months ,which every has 30 days .Before 7th month we add mid year 5 day(for leap year add a leap day). This is my proposed calendar which dispel all 10 defects of Gregorian. It is a calendar which observe principles : astronomical law and simplicity. My proposed calendar temperarily named as World Natural Calendar. Welcome comment. Yiping Zeng 2012-01-16
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 18:40:02 -0500 From: irv.bromberg@...Subject: Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual To: CALNDR-L@...
On 2012 Jan 13, at 07:20 , Sonny Pondrom wrote: You say there are plenty of places which already run successfully with parallel calendars. Can you reference an example of such a calendar?
The Churches run their ecclesiastical calendars, which for most events are tied to their Easter computus, in parallel with a solar calendar, which is the Gregorian calendar for the western churches, or the Julian or Revised Julian or Ethiopian calendar for the orthodox churches.
In the orient, the traditional lunisolar astronomical calendars are continued in parallel with the Gregorian (commercial) calendar.
In India there are a variety of sidereal or lunisolar calendars that are used in parallel with each other and with the simple fixed arithmetic Indian National Calendar.
In Iran, the modern astronomical Persian calendar is run in parallel with the Muslim strictly lunar calendar.
Mainly in Europe, the ISO calendar is run in parallel with the Gregorian calendar.
Most modern computer operating systems operate an ordinal day count (internal date) in parallel with whatever calendar they employ for user input or display or report output.
Astronomers use several different ordinal day counting schemes: Julian Day Number (JDN), Modified JDN, as well as longer period counts such as Julian centuries (elapsed periods of 36525 days relative to the J2000 epoch) and Julian millennia (elapsed periods of 365250 days relative to the J2000 epoch). They also track time by lunation number, using a variety of starting epochs, such as the Hebrew, Islamic, Goldstine, and Brown lunation number.
-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
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Dear Calendar People
Yiping’s suggestion seems to be like the Coptic/Ethiopian calendar, but with
new year around 4 Feb,
the epagomenal days in the middle of the year (around Aug 5) rather than at the end of the year and
a 5-day week interrupted by the leap day.
Karl
12(07(23
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...]
On Behalf Of zengyiping
Sent: 16 January 2012 13:11
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
Dear Irv and all calendar reformer,
Irv 2012-01-13 wrote: Is Gregorian calendar to be reformed? That is a Christian solar calendar with a mean year that was selected to approximate the spring
equinoctial year, and a 7-day sabbatical cycle. Those are rather basic to the calendar. if they are done away with, then the new calendar is unrelated
to the Gregorian calendar, not a reform of the Gregorian calendar but an independent time-keeping device.
Zeng reply: Yes and no. Yes is that "it is that Gregorian calendar need to be reformed and it has some defects as you wrote". No is that 7 day week is
not need for world use civil calandar.
A world used civil calendar only need date frame determined by astronomy, but no need other counter numbers determined by artificial cycle which can't
be accepted by all people.
A world used civil calendar should observe two principles : astronomical law and simplicity. It xhould ovoid cultural divergence.
The 7 day is not astronomical cycle and 7 can't divide 365 , so 7 d week only can be used in national calendar but no fit in world calendar.
Modern human life really need a short work-rest cycle in calendar , but it can't be a hard continuous cycle like 7 d week . It must be a soft cycle in
calendar which are a sublayer in calendar schedule. The length of work-rest and the ratio must select according to developing level of economy and
culture. About 30 years ago it's length for most nation is 7 days and the work-rest ratio is 6:1 . Nowaday the ratio become 5:2. Some people want enjoy
ratio 4:3, but it seems too low . Number 5 can divide 365,90, and 30. If we use 5 as the work-rest cycle and use work-rest ratio as 3:2, then 5:2>3:2>4:3
,so 3:2 is a better ratio and 5 is a ideal work-rest cycle. We can take 5 day cycle as a sublayer of 30 day months which can be used as work-rest cycle.
It is a soft cycle because a leap day may add to it.
Irv in his webpage <hiip://www.sym454.org/symmetry> wrote:
Credo: What We Believe
We believe that the Gregorian calendar is deficient in the following ways:
* Each consecutive Gregorian year starts on a different weekday. This is the most serious deficiency of the Gregorian calendar. If it were
impossible to correct this deficiency by adopting a perpetual (perennial) calendar reform then we wouldn't care about the rest of this list.
This deficiency causes the dates of holidays and events to shift. Those that fall on a fixed day number in a month fall on a different weekday.
Those that fall on the nth occurrence of a specified weekday in a month fall on a different day number. These shifts compel迫使 organizations such as
governments, businesses, industries, and academic institutions to consume vast amounts of time, energy, and paper rescheduling annually recurring
events just because of the changing weekday-date relationships. Even monthly recurring events are cumbersome to schedule. Easter can land on any
gedate from March 22 through April 25, and numerous ecclesistical days counted before and after Easter wander likewise.
* The lengths of the Gregorian months follow an illogical, irregular pattern: 31, 28 or 29, 31, 30, 31, 30, 31, 31, 30, 31, 30, 31 days.
* When dividing the Gregorian calendar year into 4 groups of 3 months the resulting quarters have unequal day counts and unequal ratios of workdays
to weekend days.
* Appending the leap day at the end of February causes unfortunate calendrical complexity, because it increments the ordinal day number of every
date following February in leap years. This problem could have been avoided by appending the leap day to the end of the year.
* The Gregorian calendar mean year is currently almost 12 seconds too long relative to its intended target, the mean northward equinoctial year.
* Given a Gregorian date, moderately complicated arithmetic is required to determine the weekday.
* The weekday occurrences of the leapdays in each full 400-year Gregorian leap cycle are unequal:
Monday=15, Tuesday=13, Wednesday=15, Thursday=13, Friday=14, Saturday=14, and Sunday=13.
* Many people are superstitious about bad luck occurring on Friday the 13th.
Here we see 8 defects of Gregorian .2~6 are defects from frame structure . 1 and 7~9 are defects from 7 day week.
Irv's 454 calendar may dispel all these defects. but it is really a pity that it still keep 7 day week even reduce year to 364 days ,so effect
stability of seasons .
From Chinese view point these 8 defects lack important two: the start of year is not start of insolating spring and four insolating seaons are not
clear showing .
If we let a fixed beginning of insolating spring(4th Feb) as start of year ,and keep leap day,then divide year into four calendar seasons based on four
solar insolation four seasons ,so we get four seasons near:90,95,90,90 days respectively.
Then we can divide year into 12 months ,which every has 30 days .Before 7th month we add mid year 5 day(for leap year add a leap day).
This is my proposed calendar which dispel all 10 defects of Gregorian. It is a calendar which observe principles : astronomical law and simplicity.
My proposed calendar temperarily named as World Natural Calendar.
Welcome comment.
Yiping Zeng 2012-01-16
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 18:40:02 -0500
From: irv.bromberg@...
Subject: Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
To: CALNDR-L@...
On 2012 Jan 13, at 07:20 , Sonny Pondrom wrote:
You say there are plenty of places which already run successfully with parallel calendars. Can you reference an example of such a calendar?
The Churches run their ecclesiastical calendars, which for most events are tied to their Easter computus, in parallel with a solar calendar,
which is the Gregorian calendar for the western churches, or the Julian or Revised Julian or Ethiopian calendar for the orthodox churches.
In the orient, the traditional lunisolar astronomical calendars are continued in parallel with the Gregorian (commercial) calendar.
In India there are a variety of sidereal or lunisolar calendars that are used in parallel with each other and with the simple fixed arithmetic
Indian National Calendar.
In Iran, the modern astronomical Persian calendar is run in parallel with the Muslim strictly lunar calendar.
Mainly in Europe, the ISO calendar is run in parallel with the Gregorian calendar.
Most modern computer operating systems operate an ordinal day count (internal date) in parallel with whatever calendar they employ for
user input or display or report output.
Astronomers use several different ordinal day counting schemes: Julian Day Number (JDN), Modified JDN, as well as longer period counts
such as Julian centuries (elapsed periods of 36525 days relative to the J2000 epoch) and Julian millennia (elapsed periods of 365250 days relative to the J2000 epoch). They also track time by lunation number, using a variety of starting epochs, such as the
Hebrew, Islamic, Goldstine, and Brown lunation number.
-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada
--
Scanned by iCritical.
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
Some parts of this message have been removed.
Learn more about Nabble's security policy.
20120116.2350
Dear Calendar People,
For me, a seven-day week is okay because the work week becomes metric. The week is composed of five working days and two weedend days. Two working five days equals ten days. Ten days easily becomes a metric measurement. The salary could be per fortnight instead of per half month, or 26 times a year instead of 24 times a year.
Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The
Internet is mightier than the sword."
From: zengyiping <yipingzeng@...>
To: CALNDR-L@...
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
Dear Irv and all calendar reformer, Irv 2012-01-13 wrote: Is Gregorian calendar to be reformed? That is a Christian solar calendar with a mean year that was selected to approximate the spring equinoctial year, and a 7-day sabbatical cycle. Those are rather basic to the calendar. if they are done away with, then the new calendar is unrelated to the Gregorian calendar, not a reform of the Gregorian calendar but an independent time-keeping device. Zeng reply: Yes and no. Yes is that "it is that Gregorian calendar need to be reformed and it has some defects as you wrote". No is that 7 day week is not need for world use civil calandar. A world used civil calendar only need date frame determined by astronomy, but no need other counter numbers determined by artificial cycle which can't be accepted by all people. A world used civil calendar should observe two principles : astronomical law and simplicity. It
xhould ovoid cultural divergence. The 7 day is not astronomical cycle and 7 can't divide 365 , so 7 d week only can be used in national calendar but no fit in world calendar. Modern human life really need a short work-rest cycle in calendar , but it can't be a hard continuous cycle like 7 d week . It must be a soft cycle in calendar which are a sublayer in calendar schedule. The length of work-rest and the ratio must select according to developing level of economy and culture. About 30 years ago it's length for most nation is 7 days and the work-rest ratio is 6:1 . Nowaday the ratio become 5:2. Some people want enjoy ratio 4:3, but it seems too low . Number 5 can divide 365,90, and 30. If we use 5 as the work-rest cycle and use work-rest ratio as 3:2, then 5:2>3:2>4:3 ,so 3:2 is a better ratio and 5 is a ideal work-rest cycle. We can take 5 day cycle as a sublayer of 30 day months which can be used as work-rest cycle. It
is a soft cycle because a leap day may add to it. Irv in his webpage <hiip://www.sym454.org/symmetry> wrote: Credo: What We Believe We believe that the Gregorian calendar is deficient in the following ways: * Each consecutive Gregorian year starts on a different weekday. This is the most serious deficiency of the Gregorian calendar. If it were impossible to correct this deficiency by adopting a perpetual (perennial) calendar reform then we wouldn't care about the rest of this list. This deficiency causes the dates of holidays and events to shift. Those that fall on a fixed day number in a month fall on a different weekday. Those that fall on the nth occurrence of a specified weekday in a month fall on a different day number. These shifts compel迫使 organizations such as governments, businesses, industries, and academic institutions to consume vast amounts of time, energy, and paper
rescheduling annually recurring events just because of the changing weekday-date relationships. Even monthly recurring events are cumbersome to schedule. Easter can land on any gedate from March 22 through April 25, and numerous ecclesistical days counted before and after Easter wander likewise. * The lengths of the Gregorian months follow an illogical, irregular pattern: 31, 28 or 29, 31, 30, 31, 30, 31, 31, 30, 31, 30, 31 days. * When dividing the Gregorian calendar year into 4 groups of 3 months the resulting quarters have unequal day counts and unequal ratios of workdays to weekend days. * Appending the leap day at the end of February causes unfortunate calendrical complexity, because it increments the ordinal day number of every date following February in leap years. This problem could have been avoided by appending the leap day to the end of the
year. * The Gregorian calendar mean year is currently almost 12 seconds too long relative to its intended target, the mean northward equinoctial year. * Given a Gregorian date, moderately complicated arithmetic is required to determine the weekday. * The weekday occurrences of the leapdays in each full 400-year Gregorian leap cycle are unequal: Monday=15, Tuesday=13, Wednesday=15, Thursday=13, Friday=14, Saturday=14, and Sunday=13. * Many people are superstitious about bad luck occurring on Friday the 13th. Here we see 8 defects of Gregorian .2~6 are defects from frame structure . 1 and 7~9 are defects from 7 day week. Irv's 454 calendar may dispel all these defects. but it is really a pity that it still keep 7 day week even reduce year to 364 days ,so effect stability of seasons . From Chinese view point these 8
defects lack important two: the start of year is not start of insolating spring and four insolating seaons are not clear showing . If we let a fixed beginning of insolating spring(4th Feb) as start of year ,and keep leap day,then divide year into four calendar seasons based on four solar insolation four seasons ,so we get four seasons near:90,95,90,90 days respectively. Then we can divide year into 12 months ,which every has 30 days .Before 7th month we add mid year 5 day(for leap year add a leap day). This is my proposed calendar which dispel all 10 defects of Gregorian. It is a calendar which observe principles : astronomical law and simplicity. My proposed calendar temperarily named as World Natural Calendar. Welcome comment. Yiping Zeng 2012-01-16
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 18:40:02 -0500 From: irv.bromberg@...Subject: Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual To: CALNDR-L@...
On 2012 Jan 13, at 07:20 , Sonny Pondrom wrote:
You say there are plenty of places which already run successfully with parallel calendars. Can you reference an example of such a calendar?
The Churches run their ecclesiastical calendars, which for most events are tied to their Easter computus, in parallel with a solar calendar, which is the Gregorian calendar for the western churches, or the Julian or Revised Julian or Ethiopian calendar for the orthodox churches.
In the orient, the traditional lunisolar astronomical calendars are continued in parallel with the Gregorian (commercial) calendar.
In India there are a variety of sidereal or lunisolar calendars that are used in parallel with each other and with the simple fixed arithmetic Indian National Calendar.
In Iran, the modern astronomical Persian calendar is run in parallel with the Muslim strictly lunar calendar.
Mainly in Europe, the ISO calendar is run in parallel with the Gregorian calendar.
Most modern computer operating systems operate an ordinal day count (internal date) in parallel with whatever calendar they employ for user input or display or report output.
Astronomers use several different ordinal day counting schemes: Julian Day Number (JDN), Modified JDN, as well as longer period counts such as Julian centuries (elapsed periods of 36525 days relative to the J2000 epoch) and Julian millennia (elapsed periods of 365250 days relative to the J2000 epoch). They also track time by lunation number, using a variety of starting epochs, such as the Hebrew, Islamic, Goldstine, and Brown lunation number.
-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On 2012 Jan 16, at 08:10 , zengyiping wrote: A world used civil calendar only need date frame determined by astronomy, but no need other counter numbers determined by artificial cycle which can't be accepted by all people. A world used civil calendar should observe two principles : astronomical law and simplicity. It xhould ovoid cultural divergence. The 7 day is not astronomical cycle and 7 can't divide 365 , so 7 d week only can be used in national calendar but no fit in world calendar.
Irv replies:
Actually the 7 day week has just as much astronomical status as the solar or lunar cycle:
With the unaided eye is is only possible to see 7 permanent astronomical objects moving in the sky (geocentric sequence, from slowest to fastest moving -- Sun takes the place of Earth in a geocentric sequence):
- Saturn (associated with the day of rest = Saturday because it moves most slowly, holiness associated with the halo because of Saturn's rings) - Jupiter - Mars - Sun - Venus - Mercury - Moon
-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada
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Re: Making the Gregorian Calendar Perpetual
On 2012 Jan 16, at 08:10 , zengyiping wrote: A world used civil calendar only need date frame determined by astronomy, but no need other counter numbers determined by artificial cycle which can't be accepted by all people.
Irv replies: In my credo I listed recent precedents that support conserving the sabbatical cycle as an absolute requirement. The point of the list is to show that several previous attempts to deviate from the 7-day sabbatical cycle have been proposed or attempted, but they were rejected or failed. Therefore, the world has voted (multiple times), and so it is an absolute requirement to keep the traditional 7-day sabbatical cycle. This is not my opinion, and my beliefs are irrelevant. The 7-day sabbatical cycle is fixed in stone, and is the ISO standard.
Anybody who is proposing a calendar for universal use has no hope of getting anywhere unless they conserve the 7-day sabbatical cycle, because doing so would exclude the strongly held preferences of too many people. It doesn't matter if those people are a minority or a majority -- the fact is that there are many of them, too many to exclude. History has established this as an absolute requirement. Don't waste your efforts by ignoring history. Learn from history.
zengyiping also wrote:Here we see 8 defects of Gregorian .2~6 are defects from frame structure . 1 and 7~9 are defects from 7 day week.
Irv replies:
I never used the word "defects", rather I used the word "deficiencies". There is a big difference. A defect is an error or mistake that must be corrected. There are no such errors in the Gregorian calendar.
A deficiency indicates that something is lacking or sub-optimal, and it can be improved. The Gregorian calendar deficiencies are as I listed them in my credo. The most important deficiency is that it is not a perpetual calendar. It is interesting that I would not consider the Chinese calendar to be deficient because it is not a perpetual calendar, but I do consider it a Gregorian calendar deficiency. How so? Because it would be easy to improve the Gregorian calendar to make it perpetual, simply by changing it from a leap day to a leap week calendar. On the other hand, it is impossible to make the Chinese calendar into a perpetual calendar while keeping its astronomical lunisolar character.
If improvements are possible, especially if they are reasonably easy to implement, then I say there is a deficiency. I can't, for example, think of any way to improve the Chinese calendar -- there is nothing wrong with it, assuming that the use of astronomical algorithms are acceptable, which they clearly are to the Chinese. Therefore the Chinese calendar has no deficiencies. It has a disadvantage, however, that dates are sometimes unpredictable because the astronomy we calculate today may differ from the official calculations of the past or future. There is nothing that can be done to improve that situation, however, once the decision has been made to employ astronomical algorithms.
-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada
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