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MathType
by Michael Korcuska
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Has anybody used this product with Sakai? http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathtype/ -- Michael Korcuska Executive Director, Sakai Foundation mkorcuska@... phone: +1 510-931-6559 mobile (US): +1 510-599-2586 mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 31 11 58 97 skype: mkorcuska ---------------------- This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. |
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Re: MathType
by Michael S Elledge
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Hi Steven-- I have some concerns about using this approach that may be easily resolved. 1) How widespread is MathType? Despite its limitations, MathML is a conventional approach and will be what users expect. 2) How will user experience differ using MathType? Can users parse the content of the description, or is there some way of identifying different parts of a formula?I worry that a plain <alt> description will be too "flat" for users to understand complex formulas. 3) Is there a protocol for creating an appropriate description--or is there a an editing tool? We should be careful that we support well-known and truly accessible methods in Sakai, especially given the unaddressed issues of FCKeditor. Mike On Feb 15, 2009, at 5:52 PM, Steven Githens <swgithen@...> wrote: > Mark Norton wrote: > > Is it accessible? > I doubt it, but I'm guessing it's a step in the right direction > ( having > an image as well as the mathml on a tag of the <img/> ) vs. embedding > applets in the output. (Where you couldn't export to PDF or anything > else other than a webpage ( or some other container capable of loading > java applets ) ). > > I think I started a thread about this on the Fluid list a while back, > but we didn't really figure anything out. Whenever the Math community > does have an accessible approach though, it should be a pretty small > patch to include it and fix up the markup however. I'm pretty excited > for this, and will add it in whenever there is some sort of > recommendation. ( Let me know if there is something workable and at > least marginally supported, it's been about 4 months since I looked > into > the accessiblity portion of it. ) > > Accessible Cheers, > Steve > > > One of the whole points of MathML was to support a representation > form > > of equations and mathematics in a manner that would be accessible to > > the bind and other disabled people. > > > > - Mark Norton > > > > > > Steven Githens wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> This is not the same product, but it's made by the same people... > >> (Design Science) > >> > >> In conjuction with Charles Sturt, I've been extending Rutgers WebEQ > >> plugin to have a server side component to render the MathML into > images > >> ( so you don't have to embed Applets in the output ), and allow the > >> equations to be re-editable. > >> > >> I'm working on fixing a few remaining bugs ( at this very moment > >> actually ), to prepare it for being vendor-droppable. > >> > >> https://source.sakaiproject.org/contrib/sgithens/mathedit/trunk/ > >> > >> There is a readme here: > >> https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/sgithens/ONC-709/readme.html > >> > >> Slightly off-topic Cheers, > >> Steve > >> > >> Michael Korcuska wrote: > >> > > >> > Has anybody used this product with Sakai? > >> > > >> > http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathtype/ > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Michael Korcuska > >> > Executive Director, Sakai Foundation > >> > mkorcuska@... > >> > phone: +1 510-931-6559 > >> > mobile (US): +1 510-599-2586 > >> > mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 31 11 58 97 > >> > skype: mkorcuska > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab > >> > (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: > Development / > >> > Building Sakai site. > >> > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > > >> > Preferences. > >> > >> > --- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab > >> (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: > Development / > >> Building Sakai site. > >> You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > > >> Preferences. > > > > > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal > ) from the DG: User / Using Sakai site. > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > > Preferences. ---------------------- This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. |
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Re: MathType
by Steven Githens-2
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Good Monday Morning! Michael S Elledge wrote: > Hi Steven-- > > I have some concerns about using this approach that may be easily > resolved. > 1) How widespread is MathType? Despite its limitations, MathML is a > conventional approach and will be what users expect. I'm not sure, but I think a fair number of people use WebEQ for Equation Editing. I have looked at DragMath too, which is actually open source, so hopefully that will be an option in the future. Just to be clear, the end result is actually MathML, plus a rendered image of the MathML. When I looked at browser plugin's for rendering MathML, it seemed sketchy and all over the map. But the MathML is there in the page, so we can use it as soon as we know what to do with it. > 2) How will user experience differ using MathType? Can users parse the > content of the description, or is there some way of identifying > different parts of a formula?I worry that a plain <alt> description > will be too "flat" for users to understand complex formulas. Right now, the alt tag really is just the MathML, escaped and stuff as required to be in an xml attribute. <img src="blah" alt="<mathml><mi>.....". This is what came across as the easiest option for a first iteration of pushing out something that worked. Again, the entire FCK Plugin is probably less than 50 lines of actual javascript, so it can be changed pretty easily. > 3) Is there a protocol for creating an appropriate description--or is > there a an editing tool? > The current editing tool is just the WebEQ applet. Ex. http://www.dessci.com/en/products/webeq/interactive/inputctrlex1.htm But anything that handles MathML could be used in the future. > We should be careful that we support well-known and truly accessible > methods in Sakai, especially given the unaddressed issues of FCKeditor. > Definately. I honestly did a full days research on this when I started out and posted to a few lists, but didn't end up with anything conclusive, going down the current path because it worked reasonable well for the rest of the requirements and it would be easy to modify in the future ( when an accessibility expert with browser based math skillz shows up. :p ) -Steve > Mike > > On Feb 15, 2009, at 5:52 PM, Steven Githens <swgithen@... > <mailto:swgithen@...>> wrote: > >> Mark Norton wrote: >> > Is it accessible? >> I doubt it, but I'm guessing it's a step in the right direction ( having >> an image as well as the mathml on a tag of the <img/> ) vs. embedding >> applets in the output. (Where you couldn't export to PDF or anything >> else other than a webpage ( or some other container capable of loading >> java applets ) ). >> >> I think I started a thread about this on the Fluid list a while back, >> but we didn't really figure anything out. Whenever the Math community >> does have an accessible approach though, it should be a pretty small >> patch to include it and fix up the markup however. I'm pretty excited >> for this, and will add it in whenever there is some sort of >> recommendation. ( Let me know if there is something workable and at >> least marginally supported, it's been about 4 months since I looked into >> the accessiblity portion of it. ) >> >> Accessible Cheers, >> Steve >> >> > One of the whole points of MathML was to support a representation form >> > of equations and mathematics in a manner that would be accessible to >> > the bind and other disabled people. >> > >> > - Mark Norton >> > >> > >> > Steven Githens wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> This is not the same product, but it's made by the same people... >> >> (Design Science) >> >> >> >> In conjuction with Charles Sturt, I've been extending Rutgers WebEQ >> >> plugin to have a server side component to render the MathML into >> images >> >> ( so you don't have to embed Applets in the output ), and allow the >> >> equations to be re-editable. >> >> >> >> I'm working on fixing a few remaining bugs ( at this very moment >> >> actually ), to prepare it for being vendor-droppable. >> >> >> >> https://source.sakaiproject.org/contrib/sgithens/mathedit/trunk/ >> >> >> >> There is a readme here: >> >> >> https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/sgithens/ONC-709/readme.html >> >> >> >> Slightly off-topic Cheers, >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> Michael Korcuska wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Has anybody used this product with Sakai? >> >> > >> >> > http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathtype/ >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Michael Korcuska >> >> > Executive Director, Sakai Foundation >> >> > mkorcuska@... >> <mailto:mkorcuska@...> >> >> > phone: +1 510-931-6559 >> >> > mobile (US): +1 510-599-2586 >> >> > mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 31 11 58 97 >> >> > skype: mkorcuska >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> > >> >> > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab >> >> > (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: >> Development / >> >> > Building Sakai site. >> >> > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > >> >> > Preferences. >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab >> >> (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / >> >> Building Sakai site. >> >> You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > >> >> Preferences. >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab >> (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: User / Using >> Sakai site. >> You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > >> Preferences. ---------------------- This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. 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Re: MathType
by Per Wising
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On 16 feb 2009, at 15.48, Steven Githens wrote: > Michael S Elledge wrote: > > Hi Steven-- > > > > I have some concerns about using this approach that may be easily > > resolved. > > 1) How widespread is MathType? Despite its limitations, MathML is a > > conventional approach and will be what users expect. > I'm not sure, but I think a fair number of people use WebEQ for > Equation > Editing. I have looked at DragMath too, which is actually open source, > so hopefully that will be an option in the future. I'm following this thread with a great deal of interest. Steven, did you get any feedback from faculty regarding the MathType addition to FCK Editor? Cheers, Per ---------------------- This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. |
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Re: MathType
by Steven Githens-2
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Per Wising wrote: > On 16 feb 2009, at 15.48, Steven Githens wrote: > >> Michael S Elledge wrote: >> > Hi Steven-- >> > >> > I have some concerns about using this approach that may be easily >> > resolved. >> > 1) How widespread is MathType? Despite its limitations, MathML is a >> > conventional approach and will be what users expect. >> I'm not sure, but I think a fair number of people use WebEQ for Equation >> Editing. I have looked at DragMath too, which is actually open source, >> so hopefully that will be an option in the future. > > I'm following this thread with a great deal of interest. Steven, did > you get any feedback from faculty regarding the MathType addition to > FCK Editor? > this. However, I think Rutgers is running the first iteration in production so they might. Also, just so I don't completely threadjack Michael's original post, I've never actually downloaded the MathType package so I have no idea what all it includes. This has only been using Design Science's WebEQ applet and java library. ~Steve > Cheers, > Per ---------------------- This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. |
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Re: MathType
by Mark Norton
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There is no way around the font issue. Even the plug-ins tend to require a symbols font, but they are included in the install. Most of the MathML renderers use SVG - which FireFox also supports natively now. SVG, while not perfect, does scale smoothly as long as the fonts it needs also scale well. - Mark D. Stuart Freeman wrote: > I'm indeed running Debian, so it's actually IceWeasel. My understanding > from the Mozilla pages is that Gecko based browsers now support mathml as > long as the fonts are installed. > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 01:38:09PM -0500, Steven Githens wrote: > >> D. Stuart Freeman wrote: >> >>> This caught my interest, so I went to see what I would need to add to >>> Firefox to make it render mathml. I'm running version 3.0.6, and there >>> was no plugin necessary. I even already had all the fonts installed, it >>> just plain worked without any changes. >>> >>> >> That's really awesome, especially if it's an official Mozilla santioned >> Firefox build with nothing extra apt-getted (you're running Debian >> right? I'll have to fire up my VM's and try it on WinXP and OS X). >> >> Megacheers! >> Steve >> >>> I tested all of this at http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/demo/ >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:33:14PM -0500, Steven Githens wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Hello proxied Bill, >>>> >>>> Currently the applets are only used for *authoring*. This was the major >>>> change between the first iteration and second iteration. Previously >>>> they were used for both authoring and viewing. >>>> >>>> Currently they are PNG files, and I definately agree that raster images >>>> are crappy. Which MathML plugins are you guys using for Firefox and IE >>>> (and I guess Safari) at the moment? Do you feel that they are robust >>>> enough to be 'officially' recommended for use by a university santioned >>>> CMS at the moment? When I looked at plugins a while back, they were >>>> pretty spotty across browsers. >>>> >>>> I was thinking that it would definately be possible to have a little >>>> option on the plugin that would allow you to either insert either an >>>> image with hidden MathML or just MathML. I can envision a lot of >>>> situations where you just really want to publish a few mathy things >>>> without forcing all your recipients to go through the pain of installing >>>> browser plugins. But at least the option would be available for those >>>> who are mathematically hip. >>>> >>>> A pure MathML solution does require more design work though, since you >>>> would need to somehow have FCK or whatever editor also render that in >>>> their editor. Realistically I think this next tag will be stuck with >>>> images (because it works right now), but it's certainly something that >>>> can be looked at going forward. >>>> >>>> I am actually really interested to hear what specific browser plugins >>>> you guys are using for viewing MathML at the moment though so I can >>>> check them out. >>>> >>>> Non-lossy Data Cheers, >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> David Goodrum wrote: >>>> > Hi everyone, >>>> > >>>> > I shared this information with a math professor here at Indiana >>>> > University. Prof. Bill Wheeler is also on our priorities committee for >>>> > IU's Sakai development. Here's part of his response (and I've cc'd >>>> > him on this message) - David Goodrum: >>>> > >>>> > Dear David, >>>> > >>>> > Thanks very much for sending me this note. >>>> > >>>> > I read the "readme", and it is interesting. >>>> > >>>> > However, I think the idea of converting MathML to images stored on a >>>> > server is bad. >>>> > >>>> > The point of MathML is that it can be rendered by browsers. We >>>> > abandoned stored images of mathematical expressions 6 or 7 years ago. >>>> > >>>> > Although it might be that a stored image approach is the >>>> > most compatible one with the current Sakai technology, I think this is >>>> > not a good solution. >>>> > >>>> > The article does not mention what type of image is being stored. If >>>> > it is a true image file, e.g., gif, jpeg, or png, then it is not >>>> > scalable when the user adjusts the font size. The results can be >>>> > quite ugly. >>>> > >>>> > An advantage of MathML is that changes in font size apply to the >>>> > mathematical text as well as to the non-mathematical text. >>>> > >>>> > Another problem is that a single page can have many mathematical >>>> > expressions on it. So the number of image files on the server can >>>> > really explode, along with the overhead of serving all the images. >>>> > >>>> > And if the images are dynamically generated with different images for >>>> > each student (as in a homework assignment), the load on the server can >>>> > be very heavy. >>>> > >>>> > From the "readme", I can't discern whether the applet presently is >>>> > being served only to the author as part of the editor or generally >>>> > to all of the readers of the finished document. Do you know? >>>> > >>>> > Thanks again. >>>> > >>>> > Sincerely, >>>> > >>>> > Bill >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Steven Githens wrote: >>>> > > Hi, >>>> > > >>>> > > This is not the same product, but it's made by the same people... >>>> > > (Design Science) >>>> > > >>>> > > In conjuction with Charles Sturt, I've been extending Rutgers WebEQ >>>> > > plugin to have a server side component to render the MathML into >>>> images >>>> > > ( so you don't have to embed Applets in the output ), and allow the >>>> > > equations to be re-editable. >>>> > > >>>> > > I'm working on fixing a few remaining bugs ( at this very moment >>>> > > actually ), to prepare it for being vendor-droppable. >>>> > > >>>> > > [1]https://source.sakaiproject.org/contrib/sgithens/mathedit/trunk/ >>>> > > >>>> > > There is a readme here: >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> [2]https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/sgithens/ONC-709/readme.html >>>> > > >>>> > > Slightly off-topic Cheers, >>>> > > Steve >>>> > > >>>> > > Michael Korcuska wrote: >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Has anybody used this product with Sakai? >>>> > > > >>>> > > > [3]http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathtype/ >>>> > > > >>>> > > > -- >>>> > > > Michael Korcuska >>>> > > > Executive Director, Sakai Foundation >>>> > > > mkorcuska@... >>>> > > > phone: +1 510-931-6559 >>>> > > > mobile (US): +1 510-599-2586 >>>> > > > mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 31 11 58 97 >>>> > > > skype: mkorcuska >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> > > > >>>> > > > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab >>>> > > > ([4]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: >>>> Development / >>>> > > > Building Sakai site. >>>> > > > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > >>>> > > > Preferences. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> > > >>>> > > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab >>>> > > ([5]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development >>>> / >>>> > > Building Sakai site. >>>> > > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > >>>> > > Preferences. >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> > >>>> > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab >>>> > ([6]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: User / Using >>>> > Sakai site. >>>> > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > >>>> > Preferences. >>>> > >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab >>>> ([7]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / >>>> Building Sakai site. >>>> You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > >>>> Preferences. >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> Visible links >>>> 1. https://source.sakaiproject.org/contrib/sgithens/mathedit/trunk/ >>>> 2. https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/sgithens/ONC-709/readme.html >>>> 3. http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathtype/ >>>> 4. https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal >>>> 5. https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal >>>> 6. https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal >>>> 7. https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > > ---------------------- This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. 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RE: MathType
by abass.alamnehe
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The fonts problem could be lessen by the package provided below. http://web.mit.edu/ist/topics/webpublishing/mathml/index.html -- Thank You, -abass alamnehe ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: Mark Norton [mailto:markjnorton@...] Sent: Tue 2/17/2009 1:12 PM To: D. Stuart Freeman Cc: Steven Githens; David Goodrum; Michael Korcuska; sakai-dev Dev; sakai-user; wheeler@... Subject: Re: MathType There is no way around the font issue. Even the plug-ins tend to require a symbols font, but they are included in the install. Most of the MathML renderers use SVG - which FireFox also supports natively now. SVG, while not perfect, does scale smoothly as long as the fonts it needs also scale well. - Mark D. Stuart Freeman wrote: > I'm indeed running Debian, so it's actually IceWeasel. My understanding > from the Mozilla pages is that Gecko based browsers now support mathml as > long as the fonts are installed. > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 01:38:09PM -0500, Steven Githens wrote: > >> D. Stuart Freeman wrote: >> >>> This caught my interest, so I went to see what I would need to add to >>> Firefox to make it render mathml. I'm running version 3.0.6, and there >>> was no plugin necessary. I even already had all the fonts installed, it >>> just plain worked without any changes. >>> >>> >> That's really awesome, especially if it's an official Mozilla santioned >> Firefox build with nothing extra apt-getted (you're running Debian >> right? I'll have to fire up my VM's and try it on WinXP and OS X). >> >> Megacheers! >> Steve >> >>> I tested all of this at http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/demo/ >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:33:14PM -0500, Steven Githens wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Hello proxied Bill, >>>> >>>> Currently the applets are only used for *authoring*. This was the major >>>> change between the first iteration and second iteration. Previously >>>> they were used for both authoring and viewing. >>>> >>>> Currently they are PNG files, and I definately agree that raster images >>>> are crappy. Which MathML plugins are you guys using for Firefox and IE >>>> (and I guess Safari) at the moment? Do you feel that they are robust >>>> enough to be 'officially' recommended for use by a university santioned >>>> CMS at the moment? When I looked at plugins a while back, they were >>>> pretty spotty across browsers. >>>> >>>> I was thinking that it would definately be possible to have a little >>>> option on the plugin that would allow you to either insert either an >>>> image with hidden MathML or just MathML. I can envision a lot of >>>> situations where you just really want to publish a few mathy things >>>> without forcing all your recipients to go through the pain of installing >>>> browser plugins. But at least the option would be available for those >>>> who are mathematically hip. >>>> >>>> A pure MathML solution does require more design work though, since you >>>> would need to somehow have FCK or whatever editor also render that in >>>> their editor. Realistically I think this next tag will be stuck with >>>> images (because it works right now), but it's certainly something that >>>> can be looked at going forward. >>>> >>>> I am actually really interested to hear what specific browser plugins >>>> you guys are using for viewing MathML at the moment though so I can >>>> check them out. >>>> >>>> Non-lossy Data Cheers, >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> David Goodrum wrote: >>>> > Hi everyone, >>>> > >>>> > I shared this information with a math professor here at Indiana >>>> > University. Prof. Bill Wheeler is also on our priorities committee for >>>> > IU's Sakai development. Here's part of his response (and I've cc'd >>>> > him on this message) - David Goodrum: >>>> > >>>> > Dear David, >>>> > >>>> > Thanks very much for sending me this note. >>>> > >>>> > I read the "readme", and it is interesting. >>>> > >>>> > However, I think the idea of converting MathML to images stored on a >>>> > server is bad. >>>> > >>>> > The point of MathML is that it can be rendered by browsers. We >>>> > abandoned stored images of mathematical expressions 6 or 7 years ago. >>>> > >>>> > Although it might be that a stored image approach is the >>>> > most compatible one with the current Sakai technology, I think this is >>>> > not a good solution. >>>> > >>>> > The article does not mention what type of image is being stored. If >>>> > it is a true image file, e.g., gif, jpeg, or png, then it is not >>>> > scalable when the user adjusts the font size. The results can be >>>> > quite ugly. >>>> > >>>> > An advantage of MathML is that changes in font size apply to the >>>> > mathematical text as well as to the non-mathematical text. >>>> > >>>> > Another problem is that a single page can have many mathematical >>>> > expressions on it. So the number of image files on the server can >>>> > really explode, along with the overhead of serving all the images. >>>> > >>>> > And if the images are dynamically generated with different images for >>>> > each student (as in a homework assignment), the load on the server can >>>> > be very heavy. >>>> > >>>> > From the "readme", I can't discern whether the applet presently is >>>> > being served only to the author as part of the editor or generally >>>> > to all of the readers of the finished document. Do you know? >>>> > >>>> > Thanks again. >>>> > >>>> > Sincerely, >>>> > >>>> > Bill >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Steven Githens wrote: >>>> > > Hi, >>>> > > >>>> > > This is not the same product, but it's made by the same people... >>>> > > (Design Science) >>>> > > >>>> > > In conjuction with Charles Sturt, I've been extending Rutgers WebEQ >>>> > > plugin to have a server side component to render the MathML into >>>> images >>>> > > ( so you don't have to embed Applets in the output ), and allow the >>>> > > equations to be re-editable. >>>> > > >>>> > > I'm working on fixing a few remaining bugs ( at this very moment >>>> > > actually ), to prepare it for being vendor-droppable. >>>> > > >>>> > > [1]https://source.sakaiproject.org/contrib/sgithens/mathedit/trunk/ >>>> > > >>>> > > There is a readme here: >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> [2]https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/sgithens/ONC-709/readme.html >>>> > > >>>> > > Slightly off-topic Cheers, >>>> > > Steve >>>> > > >>>> > > Michael Korcuska wrote: >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Has anybody used this product with Sakai? >>>> > > > >>>> > > > [3]http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathtype/ >>>> > > > >>>> > > > -- >>>> > > > Michael Korcuska >>>> > > > Executive Director, Sakai Foundation >>>> > > > mkorcuska@... >>>> > > > phone: +1 510-931-6559 >>>> > > > mobile (US): +1 510-599-2586 >>>> > > > mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 31 11 58 97 >>>> > > > skype: mkorcuska >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> > > > >>>> > > > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab >>>> > > > ([4]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: >>>> Development / >>>> > > > Building Sakai site. >>>> > > > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > >>>> > > > Preferences. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> > > >>>> > > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab >>>> > > ([5]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development >>>> / >>>> > > Building Sakai site. >>>> > > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > >>>> > > Preferences. >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> > >>>> > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab >>>> > ([6]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: User / Using >>>> > Sakai site. >>>> > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > >>>> > Preferences. >>>> > >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab >>>> ([7]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / >>>> Building Sakai site. >>>> You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > >>>> Preferences. >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> Visible links >>>> 1. https://source.sakaiproject.org/contrib/sgithens/mathedit/trunk/ >>>> 2. https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/sgithens/ONC-709/readme.html >>>> 3. http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathtype/ >>>> 4. https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal >>>> 5. https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal >>>> 6. https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal >>>> 7. https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > > ---------------------- This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. ---------------------- This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. |
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Re: MathType
by Steve Swinsburg-2
::
Rate this Message:
FWIW I brought up a topic on a MathML plugin for the FCKeditor in Sakai last year. Never got the resources to develop anything but it's great that this topic is being discussed again, it's something that is desperately needed and requested over and over again. MathML is a W3C standard spec so it's something we should be focusing on rather than the use of a proprietary app, although I can see that as a good starting point. One question, does the use of MathML really need to be full XHTML, or is the namespace enough http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML? The points about IE7 not working with it echo on and on... it would be great to develop an FCK plugin that works according to the standard. Those that want/need Math symbols may end up using a browser that works! I guess the images+MathML is the workaround for now? cheers, Steve On 17/02/2009, at 9:07 PM, Mark Norton wrote: > I looked into providing support for MathML in Sousa and did some tests > against various browsers. IE and Safari both require plugins to render > MathML. Firefox 5+ has support for MathML, and getting better. > However, > there is a small gotcha w.r.t to Firefox and MathML. If you look real > carefully at the MathML torture test pages, you will discover that > they > are XHTML pages with an extension of .xhtml. If you download one of > these pages and change the extension to .html or .htm, it ceases to > render. > > Why, you may ask? It's pretty simple. XHTML is required to conform to > XML conventions. Firefox uses name space extensions to include the > MathML notation (which is also XML (TeX is not, BTW)). HTML is a > looser > specification, which is why you can write <br> instead of <br/>. > > Many presentation systems will not generate XHTML. JSF, for example, > doesn't do all that good a job at it, though it might be improved. > RSF, > on the other hand, requires and enfoces XHTML for it's templates. > Antranig assures me that it's simple to generate XTML pages from said > templates. > > My notes on content support for Sousa can be viewed at: > http://confluence.sakaiproject.org/confluence/display/SOUSA/Content+Notes > including MathML notes. > > - Mark Norton > > D. Stuart Freeman wrote: > > I think the implication for the FCKEditor is that we could add > some kind > > of filter that would take TeX inside of {math} tags and convert it > to > > mathML which the browser would then display. Another possibility > would > > be to add an "Insert Equation" button to the FCKEditor that when > pressed > > would open some sort of equation editor such as the applett that was > > being discussed earlier in the thread. The output of that editor > could > > be inserted directly rather than rendered to a png for later > display. > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 03:03:47PM -0500, Ricci, Margaret P wrote: > > > >> OK, I’m just jumping into this discussion, and I have a question > or two. > >> I just looked at the MIT page about MathML and was able to see > everything > >> on the Mozilla MathML torture test page without doing a thing (I > have FF > >> 3.0.6 also). Curiously, when I tried it in IE7 on Windows Vista, > the “As > >> rendered by your browser” column looked just fine while the “As > rendered > >> by TeX” column was completely empty. > >> > >> > >> > >> I’m quite excited by the fact that I can see these things in my > browsers > >> without having to do a thing, but can someone tell me how this > relates to > >> the FCK editor? Like I said, I’m just trying to find my sealegs > in this > >> discussion, so if there is a good resource someone can point me > to that > >> will enlighten me, point away. Our urgency at IU to find an > editor with > >> math equation support just got ratcheted up a notch or two. > >> > >> > >> > >> Many thanks, > >> > >> Maggie > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Margaret Ricci > >> > >> Instructional Technology Consultant > >> > >> Teaching and Learning Technologies Center > >> > >> Indiana University > >> > >> mricci@... > >> > >> 812-855-8355 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> From: abass.alamnehe [mailto:abass.alamnehe@...] > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:41 PM > >> To: markjnorton@...; D. Stuart Freeman > >> Cc: Steven Githens; David Goodrum; Michael Korcuska; sakai-dev Dev; > >> sakai-user; Wheeler, William H. > >> Subject: RE: MathType > >> > >> > >> > >> The fonts problem could be lessen by the package provided below. > >> > >> [1]http://web.mit.edu/ist/topics/webpublishing/mathml/index.html > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Thank You, > >> -abass alamnehe > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Mark Norton [[2]mailto:markjnorton@...] > >> Sent: Tue 2/17/2009 1:12 PM > >> To: D. Stuart Freeman > >> Cc: Steven Githens; David Goodrum; Michael Korcuska; sakai-dev Dev; > >> sakai-user; wheeler@... > >> Subject: Re: MathType > >> > >> There is no way around the font issue. Even the plug-ins tend to > >> require a symbols font, but they are included in the install. > Most of > >> the MathML renderers use SVG - which FireFox also supports natively > >> now. SVG, while not perfect, does scale smoothly as long as the > fonts > >> it needs also scale well. > >> > >> - Mark > >> > >> D. Stuart Freeman wrote: > >> > I'm indeed running Debian, so it's actually IceWeasel. My > understanding > >> > from the Mozilla pages is that Gecko based browsers now support > mathml > >> as > >> > long as the fonts are installed. > >> > > >> > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 01:38:09PM -0500, Steven Githens wrote: > >> > > >> >> D. Stuart Freeman wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> This caught my interest, so I went to see what I would need > to add to > >> >>> Firefox to make it render mathml. I'm running version 3.0.6, > and there > >> >>> was no plugin necessary. I even already had all the fonts > installed, > >> it > >> >>> just plain worked without any changes. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> That's really awesome, especially if it's an official Mozilla > santioned > >> >> Firefox build with nothing extra apt-getted (you're running > Debian > >> >> right? I'll have to fire up my VM's and try it on WinXP and OS > X). > >> >> > >> >> Megacheers! > >> >> Steve > >> >> > >> >>> I tested all of this at > >> [3]http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/demo/ > >> >>> > >> >>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:33:14PM -0500, Steven Githens wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>>> Hello proxied Bill, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Currently the applets are only used for *authoring*. This > was the > >> major > >> >>>> change between the first iteration and second iteration. > Previously > >> >>>> they were used for both authoring and viewing. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Currently they are PNG files, and I definately agree that > raster > >> images > >> >>>> are crappy. Which MathML plugins are you guys using for > Firefox and > >> IE > >> >>>> (and I guess Safari) at the moment? Do you feel that they > are robust > >> >>>> enough to be 'officially' recommended for use by a university > >> santioned > >> >>>> CMS at the moment? When I looked at plugins a while back, > they were > >> >>>> pretty spotty across browsers. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I was thinking that it would definately be possible to have > a little > >> >>>> option on the plugin that would allow you to either insert > either an > >> >>>> image with hidden MathML or just MathML. I can envision a > lot of > >> >>>> situations where you just really want to publish a few mathy > things > >> >>>> without forcing all your recipients to go through the pain of > >> installing > >> >>>> browser plugins. But at least the option would be available > for those > >> >>>> who are mathematically hip. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> A pure MathML solution does require more design work though, > since > >> you > >> >>>> would need to somehow have FCK or whatever editor also > render that in > >> >>>> their editor. Realistically I think this next tag will be > stuck with > >> >>>> images (because it works right now), but it's certainly > something > >> that > >> >>>> can be looked at going forward. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I am actually really interested to hear what specific > browser plugins > >> >>>> you guys are using for viewing MathML at the moment though > so I can > >> >>>> check them out. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Non-lossy Data Cheers, > >> >>>> Steve > >> >>>> > >> >>>> David Goodrum wrote: > >> >>>> > Hi everyone, > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > I shared this information with a math professor here at > Indiana > >> >>>> > University. Prof. Bill Wheeler is also on our priorities > committee > >> for > >> >>>> > IU's Sakai development. Here's part of his response (and > I've cc'd > >> >>>> > him on this message) - David Goodrum: > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > Dear David, > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > Thanks very much for sending me this note. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > I read the "readme", and it is interesting. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > However, I think the idea of converting MathML to images > stored on > >> a > >> >>>> > server is bad. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > The point of MathML is that it can be rendered by > browsers. We > >> >>>> > abandoned stored images of mathematical expressions 6 or 7 > years > >> ago. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > Although it might be that a stored image approach is the > >> >>>> > most compatible one with the current Sakai technology, I > think this > >> is > >> >>>> > not a good solution. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > The article does not mention what type of image is being > stored. If > >> >>>> > it is a true image file, e.g., gif, jpeg, or png, then it > is not > >> >>>> > scalable when the user adjusts the font size. The results > can be > >> >>>> > quite ugly. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > An advantage of MathML is that changes in font size apply > to the > >> >>>> > mathematical text as well as to the non-mathematical text. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > Another problem is that a single page can have many > mathematical > >> >>>> > expressions on it. So the number of image files on the > server can > >> >>>> > really explode, along with the overhead of serving all the > images. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > And if the images are dynamically generated with different > images > >> for > >> >>>> > each student (as in a homework assignment), the load on > the server > >> can > >> >>>> > be very heavy. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > From the "readme", I can't discern whether the applet > presently is > >> >>>> > being served only to the author as part of the editor or > generally > >> >>>> > to all of the readers of the finished document. Do you know? > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > Thanks again. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > Sincerely, > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > Bill > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > Steven Githens wrote: > >> >>>> > > Hi, > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > This is not the same product, but it's made by the same > people... > >> >>>> > > (Design Science) > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > In conjuction with Charles Sturt, I've been extending > Rutgers > >> WebEQ > >> >>>> > > plugin to have a server side component to render the > MathML into > >> >>>> images > >> >>>> > > ( so you don't have to embed Applets in the output ), > and allow > >> the > >> >>>> > > equations to be re-editable. > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > I'm working on fixing a few remaining bugs ( at this > very moment > >> >>>> > > actually ), to prepare it for being vendor-droppable. > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> [1][4]https://source.sakaiproject.org/contrib/sgithens/mathedit/trunk/ > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > There is a readme here: > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > >> [2][5]https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/sgithens/ONC-709/readme.html > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > Slightly off-topic Cheers, > >> >>>> > > Steve > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > Michael Korcuska wrote: > >> >>>> > > > > >> >>>> > > > Has anybody used this product with Sakai? > >> >>>> > > > > >> >>>> > > > [3][6]http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathtype/ > >> >>>> > > > > >> >>>> > > > -- > >> >>>> > > > Michael Korcuska > >> >>>> > > > Executive Director, Sakai Foundation > >> >>>> > > > mkorcuska@... > >> >>>> > > > phone: +1 510-931-6559 > >> >>>> > > > mobile (US): +1 510-599-2586 > >> >>>> > > > mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 31 11 58 97 > >> >>>> > > > skype: mkorcuska > >> >>>> > > > > >> >>>> > > > > >> >>>> > > > > >> >>>> > > > > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >>>> > > > > >> >>>> > > > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai > Collab > >> >>>> > > > ([4][7]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from > the DG: > >> >>>> Development / > >> >>>> > > > Building Sakai site. > >> >>>> > > > You can modify how you receive notifications at My > Workspace > > >> >>>> > > > Preferences. > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai > Collab > >> >>>> > > ([5][8]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the > DG: > >> Development > >> >>>> / > >> >>>> > > Building Sakai site. > >> >>>> > > You can modify how you receive notifications at My > Workspace > > >> >>>> > > Preferences. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab > >> >>>> > ([6][9]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the > DG: User / > >> Using > >> >>>> > Sakai site. > >> >>>> > You can modify how you receive notifications at My > Workspace > > >> >>>> > Preferences. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >>>> > >> >>>> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab > >> >>>> ([7][10]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: > >> Development / > >> >>>> Building Sakai site. > >> >>>> You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > > >> >>>> Preferences. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> References > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Visible links > >> >>>> 1. > >> [11]https://source.sakaiproject.org/contrib/sgithens/mathedit/ > trunk/ > >> >>>> 2. > >> [12]https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/sgithens/ONC-709/readme.html > >> >>>> 3. [13]http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathtype/ > >> >>>> 4. [14]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal > >> >>>> 5. [15]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal > >> >>>> 6. [16]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal > >> >>>> 7. [17]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab > >> ([18]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: > Development / > >> Building Sakai site. > >> You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > > >> Preferences. > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab > >> ([19]https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: User / > Using > >> Sakai site. > >> You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > > >> Preferences. > >> > >> References > >> > >> Visible links > >> 1. http://web.mit.edu/ist/topics/webpublishing/mathml/index.html > >> 2. mailto:markjnorton@... > >> 3. http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/demo/ > >> 4. https://source.sakaiproject.org/contrib/sgithens/mathedit/trunk/ > >> 5. https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/sgithens/ONC-709/readmehtml > >> 6. http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathtype/ > >> 7. https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal > >> 8. https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal > >> 9. https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal > >> 10. https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal > >> 11. https://source.sakaiproject.org/contrib/sgithens/mathedit/ > trunk/ > >> 12. https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/sgithens/ONC-709/readme.html > >> 13. http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathtype/ > >> 14. https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal > >> 15. https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal > >> 16. https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal > >> 17. https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal > >> 18. https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal > >> 19. https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal > >> > > > > > > > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal > ) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > > Preferences. ---------------------- This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. |
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Re: MathType
by Steven Githens-2
::
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Oh yeah, oops! I missed the CSS Class at the bottom. Steve Swinsburg wrote: > How complete is the plugin in order to change this functionality? I'm sure there a few bugs, but the FCK Plugin works as is with the images and re-editing them with a context menu, so it should be pretty straightforward to fiddle around the the javascript for the plugin to do this instead of just an <img/> If Mike Elledge is still on the line here, how does that sound as far as accessiblity? Having display:none MathML below the image? cheers, Steve > cheers, > Steve > > --- > Steve Swinsburg > Portal Systems Developer > Centre for e-Science > Lancaster University > Lancaster > LA1 4YT > > email: s.swinsburg@... > phone: +44 (0) 1524 594870 > > > > > > > > On 18 Feb 2009, at 14:58, Steven Githens wrote: > >> Good Morning Steve... of the Swinsburg variety, >> >> I had thought a little about doing this sort of thing but ran into >> the following problematic bullet points: >> >> * Making it re-editable in FCK. The right click context menu >> basically has a listener that receives the tag(s) that are under your >> pointer when you right click somewhere. We could probably group the >> <img/> and <mathml/> together in a bigger tag, so I don't think this >> is a showstopper, but something that would take a fair amount of time >> of dinking around with and testing. >> * What happens when someone actually has MathML support in their >> browser? They end up seeing 2 of everything, since we can't really >> have any javascript in resource content to test for MathML support >> and then toggle one or the other. I don't think CSS has any >> constructs with enough logic to optionally hide something like this >> either. >> >> However! We could have both the image and MathML, but always hide >> the MathML from visual display. That would at least make it more >> available for users with sensory impairments? >> >> -Steve >> >> >> Steve Swinsburg wrote: >>> Hi Steve, >>> >>> Rather than having the MathML encoded into the alt attribute on the >>> img tag, why not have both the img and the math tags inline. The >>> base math tag would have a class to hide it (and to hide it from >>> screenreaders as well). You could then have a more textual >>> description of the math formula as the alt tag which would be more >>> accessible to screenreaders than having to wade through math tags. >>> >>> In the future, when more browsers support MathML natively, the class >>> could just be adjusted, the images removed and the MathML would work. >>> >>> ie the quadratic roots equation would be represented like so: >>> >>> <img src="quadratic_roots.png" alt="x={-b +- sqrt {b^2 - 4ac}} over >>> 2a" /> >>> <math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" > >>> <mi>x</mi> >>> <mo>=</mo> >>> <mfrac> >>> <mrow> >>> <mrow> >>> <mo>-</mo> >>> <mi>b</mi> >>> </mrow> >>> <mo>±</mo> >>> <msqrt> >>> <msup> >>> <mi>b</mi> >>> <mn>2</mn> >>> </msup> >>> <mo>-</mo> >>> <mrow> >>> <mn>4</mn> >>> <mo></mo> >>> <mi>a</mi> >>> <mo></mo> >>> <mi>c</mi> >>> </mrow> >>> </msqrt> >>> </mrow> >>> <mrow> >>> <mn>2</mn> >>> <mo></mo> >>> <mi>a</mi> >>> </mrow> >>> </mfrac> >>> </math> >>> >>> >>> >>> and in the CSS >>> >>> math { >>> display:none; >>> } >>> >>> later to be adjusted so the MathML displays. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> cheers, >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> Steve Swinsburg >>> Portal Systems Developer >>> Centre for e-Science >>> Lancaster University >>> Lancaster >>> LA1 4YT >>> >>> email: s.swinsburg@... <mailto:s.swinsburg@...> >>> phone: +44 (0) 1524 594870 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 17 Feb 2009, at 23:54, Steven Githens wrote: >>> >>>> Stephen Swinsburg wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The points about IE7 not working with it echo on and on... it >>>>> would be great to develop an FCK plugin that works according to >>>>> the standard. Those that want/need Math symbols may end up using a >>>>> browser that works! >>>>> I guess the images+MathML is the workaround for now? >>>> Exactly. The images work right now for browsers and users across >>>> the board**, and we'll need to push ahead with native MathML >>>> solution going forward. >>>> >>>> And yeah, I'd still like to experiment with having an option to >>>> choose between images and mathml. >>>> >>>> ~steve >>>> >>>> ** Well, ok, as The Mike Elledge pointed out it's probably not >>>> accessible. If there was somehow to put the MathML hidden on the >>>> img tag in a way that would make it available to visually impaired >>>> users for the moment that would be awesome. Again, at the current >>>> revision, the MathML is on the alt tag. (This is also what allows >>>> you to re-edit an existing equation. It reads the mathml off the >>>> alt tag to prepopulate the applet, and then replaces the image and >>>> alt text when you're done) >>> >> > ---------------------- This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. |
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Re: MathType
by Steven Githens-2
::
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John Norman wrote: > And of course we make it more complicated in Sakai 3 by preferring > TinyMCE editor over FCK for future accessibility support expectations. > Some others are using Spheryx. I have started looking a little at docs on how to write TinyMCE plugins. Since TinyMCE is supposed to be better than FCK, and writing plugin's for FCK is super easy, I'm guessing it will naturally present itself soon. And I think there might be a few for some of these editors already on the TinyMCE tip. And like I mentioned in the 'Future' section, I'm hoping that there will be an option for a completely open source stack here ( though neither will probably be able to be distributable with our license ). The DragMath applet handles MathML via javascript ok, and this library: http://jeuclid.sourceforge.net/ can do the image rendering. -s > > John > > On 18 Feb 2009, at 14:58, Steven Githens wrote: > > > Good Morning Steve... of the Swinsburg variety, > > > > I had thought a little about doing this sort of thing but ran into the > > following problematic bullet points: > > > > * Making it re-editable in FCK. The right click context menu basically > > has a listener that receives the tag(s) that are under your pointer > > when > > you right click somewhere. We could probably group the <img/> and > > <mathml/> together in a bigger tag, so I don't think this is a > > showstopper, but something that would take a fair amount of time of > > dinking around with and testing. > > * What happens when someone actually has MathML support in their > > browser? They end up seeing 2 of everything, since we can't really > > have > > any javascript in resource content to test for MathML support and then > > toggle one or the other. I don't think CSS has any constructs with > > enough logic to optionally hide something like this either. > > > > However! We could have both the image and MathML, but always hide the > > MathML from visual display. That would at least make it more available > > for users with sensory impairments? > > > > -Steve > > > > > > Steve Swinsburg wrote: > > > Hi Steve, > > > > > > Rather than having the MathML encoded into the alt attribute on the > > > img tag, why not have both the img and the math tags inline. The > > base > > > math tag would have a class to hide it (and to hide it from > > > screenreaders as well). You could then have a more textual > > description > > > of the math formula as the alt tag which would be more accessible to > > > screenreaders than having to wade through math tags. > > > > > > In the future, when more browsers support MathML natively, the class > > > could just be adjusted, the images removed and the MathML would > > work. > > > > > > ie the quadratic roots equation would be represented like so: > > > > > > <img src="quadratic_roots.png" alt="x={-b +- sqrt {b^2 - 4ac}} > > over 2a" /> > > > <math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" > <http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML> > > > > <mi>x</mi> > > > <mo>=</mo> > > > <mfrac> > > > <mrow> > > > <mrow> > > > <mo>-</mo> > > > <mi>b</mi> > > > </mrow> > > > <mo>±</mo> > > > <msqrt> > > > <msup> > > > <mi>b</mi> > > > <mn>2</mn> > > > </msup> > > > <mo>-</mo> > > > <mrow> > > > <mn>4</mn> > > > <mo></mo> > > > <mi>a</mi> > > > <mo></mo> > > > <mi>c</mi> > > > </mrow> > > > </msqrt> > > > </mrow> > > > <mrow> > > > <mn>2</mn> > > > <mo></mo> > > > <mi>a</mi> > > > </mrow> > > > </mfrac> > > > </math> > > > > > > > > > > > > and in the CSS > > > > > > math { > > > display:none; > > > } > > > > > > later to be adjusted so the MathML displays. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cheers, > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > Steve Swinsburg > > > Portal Systems Developer > > > Centre for e-Science > > > Lancaster University > > > Lancaster > > > LA1 4YT > > > > > > email: s.swinsburg@... > <mailto:s.swinsburg@... > > > > > > phone: +44 (0) 1524 594870 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 17 Feb 2009, at 23:54, Steven Githens wrote: > > > > > >> Stephen Swinsburg wrote: > > >>> > > >>> The points about IE7 not working with it echo on and on... it > > would > > >>> be great to develop an FCK plugin that works according to the > > >>> standard. Those that want/need Math symbols may end up using a > > >>> browser that works! > > >>> I guess the images+MathML is the workaround for now? > > >> Exactly. The images work right now for browsers and users across > > the > > >> board**, and we'll need to push ahead with native MathML solution > > >> going forward. > > >> > > >> And yeah, I'd still like to experiment with having an option to > > >> choose between images and mathml. > > >> > > >> ~steve > > >> > > >> ** Well, ok, as The Mike Elledge pointed out it's probably not > > >> accessible. If there was somehow to put the MathML hidden on the > > img > > >> tag in a way that would make it available to visually impaired > > users > > >> for the moment that would be awesome. Again, at the current > > >> revision, the MathML is on the alt tag. (This is also what allows > > you > > >> to re-edit an existing equation. It reads the mathml off the alt > > tag > > >> to prepopulate the applet, and then replaces the image and alt text > > >> when you're done) > > > > > > > > > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab > (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal > > ) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. > > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > > > Preferences. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab > (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / > Building Sakai site. > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > > Preferences. ---------------------- This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab (https://collab.sakaiproject.org//portal) from the DG: Development / Building Sakai site. You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. |
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