Mentor needed (Hummingbird bander)

[John and Sue Gregoire]

Might one of you who lives closer be able to assist TJ? Please respond to him
directly as he is not on the listserv. He'll obviously need to adjust his time
availability and require more training than he thinks, but it would be nice for
someone to nurture this interest.
Best,
John

My name is T.J. Zenzal and I am one of Frank Moore's masters students at the
University of Southern Mississippi. I am looking into possibly doing my masters
project working with hummingbirds. I was told by Sara Kaiser that you may be willing
to train banders. If you or anyone else you know would be willing to train me
possibly before the spring (march), I would be very interested in that. I would be
available to train anytime between Dec 15th and March 15th.

Thank you,

T.J. Zenzal

--
T.J. Zenzal
Migratory Bird Research Group
Department of Biological Sciences
University of Southern Mississippi
118 College Drive Box 5018
Hattiesburg, MS 39406-0001
tjzenzal@...

601-266-4394

--
John and Sue Gregoire
Field Ornithologists
Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
5373 Fitzgerald Road
Burdett,NY 14818-9626
 Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
"Conserve and Create Habitat"

subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand web site:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm

[Scott Weidensaul]

   Apparently Mr. Zenzal approached most or all licensed hummingbird
banders in North America, including those of us who live in the north
where there are no hummers to speak of in the Dec. 15-March 15 period
in which he wants to train. I gather he's now looking for someone in
the tropics with whom to work.

   Scott Weidensaul
   Schuylkill Haven, PA

>Might one of you who lives closer be able to assist TJ? Please respond to him
>directly as he is not on the listserv. He'll obviously need to adjust his time
>availability and require more training than he thinks, but it would
>be nice for
>someone to nurture this interest.
>Best,
>John
>
>My name is T.J. Zenzal and I am one of Frank Moore's masters students at the
>University of Southern Mississippi. I am looking into possibly doing
>my masters
>project working with hummingbirds. I was told by Sara Kaiser that
>you may be willing
>to train banders. If you or anyone else you know would be willing to train me
>possibly before the spring (march), I would be very interested in
>that. I would be
>available to train anytime between Dec 15th and March 15th.
>
>Thank you,
>
>T.J. Zenzal
>
>--
>T.J. Zenzal
>Migratory Bird Research Group
>Department of Biological Sciences
>University of Southern Mississippi
>118 College Drive Box 5018
>Hattiesburg, MS 39406-0001
>tjzenzal@...
>
>601-266-4394
>
>--
>John and Sue Gregoire
>Field Ornithologists
>Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
>5373 Fitzgerald Road
>Burdett,NY 14818-9626
>  Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
>"Conserve and Create Habitat"
>
>subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand web site:
>http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm

subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand web site:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm

[SAKAI_WALTER]

This is a common problem that I encounter.  I regularly have graduate
students and biological consultant-types, who think they can come out
for a few banding session and become competent banders.  When I inform
them that they have come out at the crack of dawn for a full year to
"see" breeding condition, molts, and the various problems that they may
encounter while banding, just to become a passable bander, the
enthusiasm to learn how to band wanes precipitously.  I can usually tell
after a few cycles if the person has the passion for bird banding.  The
ones that don't disappear.

Walt

Walter H. Sakai
Professor of Biology, Santa Monica College, 1900 Pico Blvd, Santa
Monica, CA 90405-1628
Research Associate, Entomology Section, Natural History Museum of L.A.
Research Associate, Western Foundation of Vertebrate Zoology
Editor, Western Section, North American Bird Bander
Tele:  310.434.4702     FAX:  [phone]
email:  sakai_walter@...; DanauSakai@...
homepage:  http://homepage.smc.edu/sakai_walter
Federal Bird Banding Permit # 22030
"Migrate with the Monarchs"  
"The best way to learn something is to teach it."

-----Original Message-----
From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND@...] On
Behalf Of John and Sue Gregoire
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:33 AM
To: BIRDBAND@...
Subject: [BIRDBAND] Mentor needed (Hummingbird bander)

Might one of you who lives closer be able to assist TJ? Please respond
to him
directly as he is not on the listserv. He'll obviously need to adjust
his time
availability and require more training than he thinks, but it would be
nice for
someone to nurture this interest.
Best,
John

My name is T.J. Zenzal and I am one of Frank Moore's masters students at
the
University of Southern Mississippi. I am looking into possibly doing my
masters
project working with hummingbirds. I was told by Sara Kaiser that you
may be willing
to train banders. If you or anyone else you know would be willing to
train me
possibly before the spring (march), I would be very interested in that.
I would be
available to train anytime between Dec 15th and March 15th.

Thank you,

T.J. Zenzal

--
T.J. Zenzal
Migratory Bird Research Group
Department of Biological Sciences
University of Southern Mississippi
118 College Drive Box 5018
Hattiesburg, MS 39406-0001
tjzenzal@...

601-266-4394

--
John and Sue Gregoire
Field Ornithologists
Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
5373 Fitzgerald Road
Burdett,NY 14818-9626
 Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
"Conserve and Create Habitat"

subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand web
site:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm

subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand web site:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm

[John and Sue Gregoire]

We have seen the same thing Walt. Some of them have left us because the
time/procedural requirements were too much and then headed for one of the "trainer"
sessions. It's more than a bit scary when they return to the area within 6 months
with a permit. I much prefer the apprentice system of learning as you describe. No
one will become a competent bander in a week or two.
--
John and Sue Gregoire
Field Ornithologists
Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
5373 Fitzgerald Road
Burdett,NY 14818-9626
 Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
"Conserve and Create Habitat"

On Wed, October 14, 2009 14:07, SAKAI_WALTER wrote:

> This is a common problem that I encounter.  I regularly have graduate
> students and biological consultant-types, who think they can come out
> for a few banding session and become competent banders.  When I inform
> them that they have come out at the crack of dawn for a full year to
> "see" breeding condition, molts, and the various problems that they may
> encounter while banding, just to become a passable bander, the
> enthusiasm to learn how to band wanes precipitously.  I can usually tell
> after a few cycles if the person has the passion for bird banding.  The
> ones that don't disappear.
>
> Walt
>
> Walter H. Sakai
> Professor of Biology, Santa Monica College, 1900 Pico Blvd, Santa
> Monica, CA 90405-1628
> Research Associate, Entomology Section, Natural History Museum of L.A.
> Research Associate, Western Foundation of Vertebrate Zoology
> Editor, Western Section, North American Bird Bander
> Tele:  310.434.4702     FAX:  [phone]
> email:  sakai_walter@...; DanauSakai@...
> homepage:  http://homepage.smc.edu/sakai_walter
> Federal Bird Banding Permit # 22030
> "Migrate with the Monarchs"
> "The best way to learn something is to teach it."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND@...] On
> Behalf Of John and Sue Gregoire
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:33 AM
> To: BIRDBAND@...
> Subject: [BIRDBAND] Mentor needed (Hummingbird bander)
>
> Might one of you who lives closer be able to assist TJ? Please respond
> to him
> directly as he is not on the listserv. He'll obviously need to adjust
> his time
> availability and require more training than he thinks, but it would be
> nice for
> someone to nurture this interest.
> Best,
> John
>
> My name is T.J. Zenzal and I am one of Frank Moore's masters students at
> the
> University of Southern Mississippi. I am looking into possibly doing my
> masters
> project working with hummingbirds. I was told by Sara Kaiser that you
> may be willing
> to train banders. If you or anyone else you know would be willing to
> train me
> possibly before the spring (march), I would be very interested in that.
> I would be
> available to train anytime between Dec 15th and March 15th.
>
> Thank you,
>
> T.J. Zenzal
>
> --
> T.J. Zenzal
> Migratory Bird Research Group
> Department of Biological Sciences
> University of Southern Mississippi
> 118 College Drive Box 5018
> Hattiesburg, MS 39406-0001
> tjzenzal@...
>
> 601-266-4394
>
> --
> John and Sue Gregoire
> Field Ornithologists
> Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
> 5373 Fitzgerald Road
> Burdett,NY 14818-9626
>  Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
> "Conserve and Create Habitat"
>
> subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand web
> site:
> http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm
>
> subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand web site:
> http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm
>

subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand web site:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm

[SAKAI_WALTER]

How true.  I have seen Master Banders simply "give" their graduate
students permits so they can work on their dissertations, after a couple
days of training in the field.  Well, I take that back.  At least, in my
opinion, the graduate student was poorly trained.  In one case, a
graduate student was even taking blood samples.  Sorry to offend Master
Banders/Professors in academia, but this is where I have seen most of
the abuse.

 This is part of the reason for the NABC certification program that many
banders have resisted.  A more independent evaluation of a prospective
bander would be preferable to the above, although I am sure most Masters
banders expect very high standards of training and internship before
giving a subpermit.

Walt

-----Original Message-----
From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND@...] On
Behalf Of John and Sue Gregoire
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:17 AM
To: BIRDBAND@...
Subject: Re: [BIRDBAND] Mentor needed (Hummingbird bander)

We have seen the same thing Walt. Some of them have left us because the
time/procedural requirements were too much and then headed for one of
the "trainer"
sessions. It's more than a bit scary when they return to the area within
6 months
with a permit. I much prefer the apprentice system of learning as you
describe. No
one will become a competent bander in a week or two.
--
John and Sue Gregoire
Field Ornithologists
Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
5373 Fitzgerald Road
Burdett,NY 14818-9626
 Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
"Conserve and Create Habitat"

On Wed, October 14, 2009 14:07, SAKAI_WALTER wrote:
> This is a common problem that I encounter.  I regularly have graduate
> students and biological consultant-types, who think they can come out
> for a few banding session and become competent banders.  When I inform
> them that they have come out at the crack of dawn for a full year to
> "see" breeding condition, molts, and the various problems that they
may
> encounter while banding, just to become a passable bander, the
> enthusiasm to learn how to band wanes precipitously.  I can usually
tell
> after a few cycles if the person has the passion for bird banding.
The

> ones that don't disappear.
>
> Walt
>
> Walter H. Sakai
> Professor of Biology, Santa Monica College, 1900 Pico Blvd, Santa
> Monica, CA 90405-1628
> Research Associate, Entomology Section, Natural History Museum of L.A.
> Research Associate, Western Foundation of Vertebrate Zoology
> Editor, Western Section, North American Bird Bander
> Tele:  310.434.4702     FAX:  [phone]
> email:  sakai_walter@...; DanauSakai@...
> homepage:  http://homepage.smc.edu/sakai_walter
> Federal Bird Banding Permit # 22030
> "Migrate with the Monarchs"
> "The best way to learn something is to teach it."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND@...] On
> Behalf Of John and Sue Gregoire
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:33 AM
> To: BIRDBAND@...
> Subject: [BIRDBAND] Mentor needed (Hummingbird bander)
>
> Might one of you who lives closer be able to assist TJ? Please respond
> to him
> directly as he is not on the listserv. He'll obviously need to adjust
> his time
> availability and require more training than he thinks, but it would be
> nice for
> someone to nurture this interest.
> Best,
> John
>
> My name is T.J. Zenzal and I am one of Frank Moore's masters students

at
> the
> University of Southern Mississippi. I am looking into possibly doing
my
> masters
> project working with hummingbirds. I was told by Sara Kaiser that you
> may be willing
> to train banders. If you or anyone else you know would be willing to
> train me
> possibly before the spring (march), I would be very interested in
that.

> I would be
> available to train anytime between Dec 15th and March 15th.
>
> Thank you,
>
> T.J. Zenzal
>
> --
> T.J. Zenzal
> Migratory Bird Research Group
> Department of Biological Sciences
> University of Southern Mississippi
> 118 College Drive Box 5018
> Hattiesburg, MS 39406-0001
> tjzenzal@...
>
> 601-266-4394
>
> --
> John and Sue Gregoire
> Field Ornithologists
> Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
> 5373 Fitzgerald Road
> Burdett,NY 14818-9626
>  Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
> "Conserve and Create Habitat"
>
> subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand

web
> site:
> http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm
>
> subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand
web site:
> http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm
>

subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand web
site:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm

subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand web site:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm

[Charlie-43]

All,

Not wanting this person to just be ignored, I decided to send him a message in an attempt to explain to him what we all seem to understand, but which many, many people out there do not.

Please note I didn't name the listserv and didn't send this on behalf of any group or organization, just as an individual.

Perhaps it would be valuable for some organization (AFO?) to put together some sort of a similar letter for generic use when we recieve such inquiries?  While these folks have (in our collective opinion) unrealistic expectations, it's just not fair to them to not set them straight at the earliest opportunity.

Or, perhaps you folks can tell me if I'm out of line here?

Cheers,
Charlie Muise
Lamar County, GA


Hello TJ,

Your name and request has been passed on to me.  I gather that you are trying to obtain training to work with hummingbirds prior to this spring.  I feel it important to tell you that it would exceedingly difficult to obtain such training anywhere in North America in that timing.  

My only recommendation would be to try to contact one of the winter banders in Texas or Louisiana.  Realistically, you'd need to handle at least a few hundred birds to obtain a master permit;  perhaps with as few as one hundred birds you could find someone willing to take you on as a sub permittee, which may be all you need.  There are so few hummber banders in the US (less than 1 out of 100 or more banders?) that you have very few options.

You may or may not realize that hummer banding is very special.  I've been a master bander for 3 years, and managed 2 stations as a sub-permittee for 6 years before that. Prior to that I had been obtaining training as I could since 1992.  I took two classes from the Institute for Bird Populations.  I now operate 2 banding stations year-round, band at my home in winter, trap Loggerhead Shrikes on the road year-round, and try to band owls in the winter.  However, I am nowhere near ready to try to go for the next step, which is banding hummingbirds.  I've been told by a couple of very well-known hummer banders that they'd be willing to train me, and that it would take a minimum of 2 weeks of constant effort - which would have to happen at a time and place where we could catch dozens of birds per day.  Of course, that only happens in certain places and at certain times - most of which have passed for the year.

I hate to send a "gloom and doom" type message, but I feel it's important that you understand the difficulty of what you are trying to accomplish.

Cheers,
Charlie Muise
Lamar County, GA


     

subscription options and posting rules can be found at the BirdBand web site:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6549/birdband.htm