Missing Compatibility Preferences in v11

[Walt Gmail]

Folks,
In opening the preferences for Foundation Shell (great product, BTW <grin>),
and selecting Compatibility under Application, I am missing several
checkboxes.

Missing:
Fields are not enterable in dialog boxes
Radio buttons grouped by name
Reload form for each record during PRINT SELECTION
Automatic Transactions during Data Entry
Allow Nested Transactions
Unicode Mode
Use period and command as placeholders in numeric formats

and the entire section on Platform is missing.

Ok, so what am <I> missing?

--
Thanks,
Walt Nelson (Seattle)
Keeper of the Shell
www.foundationshell.com
walt@...
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[Koen Van Hooreweghe]

Walt,

Did you start from a new created structure in v11?
If so, it is correct some compatibility checkboxes are missing.

Eg, if you create a new structure in v11, you won't be able to turn  
unicode mode off.

HTH
Koen

Op 2-jul-09, om 15:54 heeft Walt Nelson het volgende geschreven:

> and selecting Compatibility under Application, I am missing several
> checkboxes.
>

--------------------
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[Charles Vass-3]

Koen,

Your answer is not accurate.  You can turn it off by using SET  
DATABASE PARAMETER (41; 0), see <http://www.4d.com/docs/CMU/ 
CMU00642.HTM>.
Kind regards,

Charlie Vass
------------------------------
Technical Services Team Member
4D, Inc.

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On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Koen Van Hooreweghe wrote:

> Walt,
>
> Did you start from a new created structure in v11?
> If so, it is correct some compatibility checkboxes are missing.
>
> Eg, if you create a new structure in v11, you won't be able to turn  
> unicode mode off.
>
> HTH
> Koen
>
> Op 2-jul-09, om 15:54 heeft Walt Nelson het volgende geschreven:
>
>> and selecting Compatibility under Application, I am missing several
>> checkboxes.
>>
>
> --------------------
> Compass bvba
> Koen Van Hooreweghe
> Kloosterstraat 65
> 9910 Knesselare
> Belgium
> bvbaCompass@...

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[Koen Van Hooreweghe]

Charlie,

Thanks for correcting me on this. I didn't know that.
But then I wonder what is the point of hiding those checkboxes in the  
preferences dialog?

Koen

Op 2-jul-09, om 16:27 heeft Charles Vass het volgende geschreven:

> Your answer is not accurate.  You can turn it off by using SET  
> DATABASE PARAMETER (41; 0), see <http://www.4d.com/docs/CMU/ 
> CMU00642.HTM>.
> Kind regards,

--------------------
Compass bvba
Koen Van Hooreweghe
Kloosterstraat 65
9910 Knesselare
Belgium
bvbaCompass@...


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[Walt Gmail]

Koen,

> Did you start from a new created structure in v11?
> If so, it is correct some compatibility checkboxes are missing.
>
> Eg, if you create a new structure in v11, you won't be able to turn unicode mode off.

Hmmm...to tell you the truth, I don't know. As most of you know, I
inherited Foundation from Dave Batton. I guess I'll have to ask him if
he started Foundation 5 in v11 or not.

Interestingly, I just tried starting a NEW database with v11.4 and
there are some MORE missing Design Compatibility checkboxes.

In addition to the ones reported missing in Foundation:

Execute QUERY BY FORMULA On Server
Execute ORDER BY FORMULA On Server
QUERY BY FORMULA Uses SQL Joins

are also missing.

OK, now things are just getting weird! I just tried creating a new
Database from Template from the File menu. I selected the Event
Manager template.
THIS database has ALL the checkboxes available in Design Compatibility.
In looking through the folders inside the Mac package, the only
difference I can see is that the Event Manager database has a
Resources folder has a folder named English.lproj containing a single
file called ResourcesEN.xlf

Now for the reason for all this. I want to make sure that Foundation
has the checkbox for Unicode checked since that needs to match what
the HOST database has for that checkbox.

Now that I think about it, if someone upgrades a structure to v11 and
leaves Unicode Mode turned off - How am I going to allow them to turn
Unicode Mode off in Foundation if the checkbox isn't there?

Any thoughts on how to get these checkboxes back?

--
Thanks,
Walt Nelson (Seattle)
Keeper of the Shell
www.foundationshell.com
walt@...
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[Matthias Schmidt-6]

Am/On Thu, 2 Jul 2009 16:39:55 +0200 schrieb/wrote Koen Van Hooreweghe:


>Thanks for correcting me on this. I didn't know that.
>But then I wonder what is the point of hiding those checkboxes in the
>preferences dialog?

'cause running v11 without UTC is as it was said like shooting yourself
in the foot.
You just can't run anymore after doing so ;-)

The database parameter is there for working with raw text, which is not UTC.

This is also the reason, that the checkboxes are not there anymore.

So if someone doesn't like Unicode, he might want to use 4D v6.5 and Mac
OS 7.6 or Windows 3.11.....

cheers,
Matthias

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[Walt Gmail]

Matthias,

> 'cause running v11 without UTC is as it was said like shooting yourself
> in the foot.
> You just can't run anymore after doing so ;-)
>
> The database parameter is there for working with raw text, which is not UTC.
>
> This is also the reason, that the checkboxes are not there anymore.
>
> So if someone doesn't like Unicode, he might want to use 4D v6.5 and Mac
> OS 7.6 or Windows 3.11.....

Ah, but you can get those checkboxes back. Follow these steps:

1) Open 4D v11.4
2) Select File - New Database From Template
3) Select Event Manager and Create Database
4) Go to Design and Select 4D - Preferences
5) Select Compatibility

Unicode mode is UNCHECKED. In addition, all checkboxes are visible.

How do I get my checkboxes back in Foundation?! Anyone know? Please...
--
Thanks,
Walt Nelson (Seattle)
Keeper of the Shell
www.foundationshell.com
walt@...
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[Koen Van Hooreweghe]

Walt,

I suppose that's because the Event Manager template is converted from  
2004 or earlier.

Koen

Op 2-jul-09, om 17:14 heeft Walt Nelson het volgende geschreven:

> 2) Select File - New Database From Template
> 3) Select Event Manager and Create Database

--------------------
Compass bvba
Koen Van Hooreweghe
Kloosterstraat 65
9910 Knesselare
Belgium
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[jpupier]

Hi,

It is not recommended to switch unicode mode in exploitation using this command.


Documentation :
<http://www.4d.fr/documentation/4DdocV11/CMU/CMU00642.HTM>
The execution mode can be controlled via an option in the Preferences
and can also be read or (for testing purposes) modified via this
selector.



Amicalement,

Jérôme
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On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Koen Van
Hooreweghe<bvbaCompass@...> wrote:

> Charlie,
>
> Thanks for correcting me on this. I didn't know that.
> But then I wonder what is the point of hiding those checkboxes in the
> preferences dialog?
>
> Koen
>
> Op 2-jul-09, om 16:27 heeft Charles Vass het volgende geschreven:
>
>> Your answer is not accurate.  You can turn it off by using SET DATABASE
>> PARAMETER (41; 0), see <http://www.4d.com/docs/CMU/CMU00642.HTM>.
>> Kind regards,
>
> --------------------
> Compass bvba
> Koen Van Hooreweghe
> Kloosterstraat 65
> 9910 Knesselare
> Belgium
> bvbaCompass@...
>
>
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[Walt Gmail]

Koen,

> I suppose that's because the Event Manager template is converted from 2004
> or earlier.

So, I suppose there is some bit set inside the 4D structure that is
allowing these Design Compatibility preferences to become 'available'.
I just want to be able to get them back in my Foundation database. I
suppose I could just drag copy all my stuff from the Foundation
database into the Event Manager template, but that seems a bit silly.

--
Thanks,
Walt Nelson (Seattle)
Keeper of the Shell
www.foundationshell.com
walt@...
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[John Foster]

Hey Walt,

Charlie Vass said:

You can turn it off by using SET DATABASE PARAMETER (41; 0), see <http://www.4d.com/docs/CMU/CMU00642.HTM 
 >.
Kind regards,

hth,
John...

> Now that I think about it, if someone upgrades a structure to v11 and
> leaves Unicode Mode turned off - How am I going to allow them to turn
> Unicode Mode off in Foundation if the checkbox isn't there?
>
> Any thoughts on how to get these checkboxes back?




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[Walt Gmail]

John,

Thanks, I saw that, but want I'd like is to have the preferences
dialog show the checkboxes so Foundation users can set it themselves,
if they so choose.

> Charlie Vass said:
>
> You can turn it off by using SET DATABASE PARAMETER (41; 0), see
> <http://www.4d.com/docs/CMU/CMU00642.HTM>.
> Kind regards,

I suppose I could write my own interface to the Design Compatibility
preferences, but I was hoping there was a way to get them all back.

--
Thanks,
Walt Nelson (Seattle)
Keeper of the Shell
www.foundationshell.com
walt@...
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[Joshua Fletcher]

Walt,

Walt Nelson wrote:
> I suppose I could write my own interface to the Design Compatibility
> preferences, but I was hoping there was a way to get them all back.

Take heed of Jérôme's reply (after all he works in the Enginnering
department :).  I would be careful of assuming that just because you
enabled the check box, the database is now equivalent to a converted
database.

Another way to say it: these compatibly check boxes are only intended to
appear in converted databases, not new databases created in 4D v11 SQL.

If you want them to appear, the proper way to do it would be to start
with a converted database.

-Josh

--
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Technical Services Team Member
4D, Inc.
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[Walt Gmail]

Josh,

> Take heed of Jérôme's reply (after all he works in the Enginnering
> department :).  I would be careful of assuming that just because you enabled
> the check box, the database is now equivalent to a converted database.
>
> Another way to say it: these compatibly check boxes are only intended to
> appear in converted databases, not new databases created in 4D v11 SQL.
>
> If you want them to appear, the proper way to do it would be to start with a
> converted database.

Since many of my customers will be converting old databases to v11 and
they MAY leave Unicode Mode turned off (the default behavior for
converting), I need to have the option for them to set the Foundation
component to have Unicode Mode turned off. Correct?

>From the Conversion4Dv11SQL.pdf:

Unicode mode
This option is checked by default in a new 4D v11 SQL database and not
checked in converted databases.

Also,

During the 4D 2004 -> 4D v11 SQL conversion, 4D converts the data to
Unicode. In order to not lose any
information, it is important to know the original character set. This
cannot be done in a completely automatic
manner.

And finally, from the 4D_v11_Upgrade.pdf

Similarly, the Unicode mode must be the same for host databases and components.

Therefore, my question is: Should I just have Foundation 5 (which only
works in v11) component set with Unicode Mode turned on? And then tell
my users to set Unicode Mode on for their Host databases? Is there any
reason people would want Unicode turned off in v11?

I'm cool with that, if that can be confirmed.

--
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Walt Nelson (Seattle)
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[David Dancy]

How about a feature request to 4D (I'll do it if you like) to allow
Unicode components to be called from non-Unicode hosts, and vice
versa? Seems weird that it wasn't that way from the beginning, given
that all the conversion magic is already in 4D... All they have to do
is put a string-conversion bridge on the parameter-passing system.
Simple! :)


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[Walt Nelson-4]

Walt

Why not set up your own Foundation Preferences dialog, and call the 4D command when the developer checks or unchecks your custom checkbox?

Walt Nelson - Guam

Walt Belson (Seattle) said:

>Thanks, I saw that, but want I'd like is >to have the preferences
>dialog show the checkboxes so >Foundation users can set it themselves,
>if they so choose.
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[MIYAKO]

Hi,

if can add one more note of caution,
simply checking Get database parameter(Unicode mode) is insufficient;
the commands returns the current parameter value, which, for instance,
was altered during the current session, will not be respected until  
the next relaunch.

test running a Unicode function like Match regex is more specific.

miyako

On 2009/07/03, at 6:56, Walt Nelson wrote:

> John,
>
> Thanks, I saw that, but want I'd like is to have the preferences
> dialog show the checkboxes so Foundation users can set it themselves,
> if they so choose.
>
>> Charlie Vass said:
>>
>> You can turn it off by using SET DATABASE PARAMETER (41; 0), see
>> <http://www.4d.com/docs/CMU/CMU00642.HTM>.
>> Kind regards,
>
> I suppose I could write my own interface to the Design Compatibility
> preferences, but I was hoping there was a way to get them all back.

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[Thomas Maul-2]

Walt,
> And then tell my users to set Unicode Mode on for their Host databases?

You may have users which wants to use the new Unicode features - and some which did not found time yet to test, so prefer to stay in compatibility mode.

As you noticed a component must run in the same mode as the host application, if (and only if) text parameters are passed between host and component.

Please note that even if you would be able to see the checkbox in the components setup dialog, it would not help your customers, as I guess they do not have access to the source code of the component?

There are two ways to solve this issue:
- Use SET DATABASE PARAMETER (41; 0) to turn on/off - and then recompile the component. If the customer has the source, he/she can recompile, but I guess this means you need to deploy two set's of components, one with enabled, one with disabled. This can be done, but increases the deployment work...

- Don't pass text parameters, uses pointers. If the host/component never calls methods with text/string parameters, they will work perfectly fine even in different mode. As an example you may want to look on the UserMode component, published recently: http://kb.4d.com/search/assetid=75777
The component uses several methods with parameter, but no text, so it works fine in both modes.

If there is no direct text exchange but pointers to text, it works fine. Of course this increases the complexity to call/use the component. One way to solve this is showed in the html email component. It uses text and is compiled in Unicode mode, so the host needs to be in the same mode. http://kb.4d.com/search/assetid=75229
As I did not wanted to ship two components, but know that some customers are still in compatibility mode, I added a "wrapper" component. This wrapper is also compiled in Unicode mode, but accepts only pointers to text parameters, not the text itself. It then calls the real component directly, which is possible as both run in the same mode.

Users already in Unicode mode can use the email component directly. Users still in compatibility mode can also use it, but needs to call the wrapper, using pointers. This is explained in the tech note, so you may want to take a look.

This works fine for a new component without existing user base, maybe not for Foundation as this would require code modifications from your users.
As a result I guess shipping two set's of components is today the best way to maintain backward compatibility. You maintain only one version of course, but compile it twice. Note that the worst issue here is that you also need to test Foundation twice, in both modes. How much testing you need depends of how you handle text.

Again as example the Html component. I tried that in compatibility mode and failed. It would need a huge amount of work to make it useable without Unicode. It heavily uses regex and text > 32000 chars. As soon you get used to these new features, it is difficult to live without...
As a result I realized it is easier to use a wrapper to allow using it in a compatilibity mode host.
Hope that helps
Thomas

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[jpupier]

 All they have to do
> is put a string-conversion bridge on the parameter-passing system.
> Simple! :)


Hi David,


Thomas Sclumberger did some tests about that. If I recall,
TEXT TO BLOB & Blob to text works fine as a bridge...


Amicalement,

Jérôme
----------------------------------------------
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- Jul 7,2006
West Africa's version of the black rhino appears
to be extinct, the World Conservation Union
said on Friday. (Reuters)

http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/  : 4D DevTeam

----------------------------------------------



On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 4:21 AM, David Dancy<david.dancy@...> wrote:

> How about a feature request to 4D (I'll do it if you like) to allow
> Unicode components to be called from non-Unicode hosts, and vice
> versa? Seems weird that it wasn't that way from the beginning, given
> that all the conversion magic is already in 4D...
>
>
> --
> David Dancy
> Sydney, Australia
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>

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[David Dancy]

Hmmm.... (Thinking cap on...) it would be quite a job to make all text
parameters in 4D pass through that sort of bridge... but once done,
no-one else in the world would ever have to do it. As it stands,
everybody _except_ 4D has to either be limited to running a host and
component in the same mode or provide 2 versions of components to be
compatible with the whole world. So,
   4D does a lot or work on everyone's behalf
                     vs
   Everyone does lots of work on 4D's behalf

I know which I'd prefer!

I also contend that there is still a need for a Unicode-mode program
to be able to deal with non-Unicode text. I think this is why other
DB's allow a text to be stored with its encoding noted so that it can
be converted (subject to character limitations) to any other encoding,
and so that developers can pick the encoding that's best suited to
their application. I am aware that the Unicode libraries that 4D's
implementation is based on have conversion functions to do all the
heavy lifting, so it would be nice to see those being used to enable a
non-Unicode host to call Unicode components (and vice versa) without
the developer having to resort to Thomas Maul's bag of tricks or
forcing component users to send text via BLOBs first. Putting strings
in an XML DOM tree would also work, since the conversion to and from
UTF-8 (or whatever encoding you choose in the XML options) is
automatic. But it's a pity it only applies to XML.

It seems to me as if much of the auto-text conversion grunt-work has
already been done, given that when running in non-Unicode mode 4D has
to take text stored in Unicode in the database and convert it to the
user's system encoding on-the-fly for use in the program and then back
again for storage. How much more work would it be to subvert that
mechanism and make it apply to text parameters sent between hosts and
components if they need it?

:)

--
David Dancy
Sydney, Australia
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