Nabble - Misterhouse Issues

Re: Groups and Items Missing

2009-11-30T13:12:59Z

Nevermind I got it.. For some reason MH didn't like the tables in my items.mht (even though it created them).. A little reformatting and all is well and working.

Groups and Items Missing

2009-11-30T06:48:23Z

I'm running version 2.104 on Windows Server 2003.
When I create an item, it shows in the "Edit Items" page but nowhere else..
When I check the "Lights/Appliances" page, I see nothing under "Browse Groups" even though the groups are defined properly in items.mht.
I've checked my items.mht which lives in a custom dir, everything looks fine.

What else should I be checking??

Thanks!!

Text to speech on Windows Seven

2009-11-09T14:31:49Z

Hi,

I'm totally new to misterhouse and I need your help !
I'm trying to install it on windows seven but I can't get it to talk.
The Install section of Misterhouse website is not up to date and I didn't find any info on installing it on Vista or Seven.

I installed MS SpeechSDK 5.1 and checked that "voice_text = MS" in mh.ini
When I go to windows Text To Speech control panel, I can only select Microsoft Anna but it work well.
I also set "voice_names = female=>Microsoft Anna"

Thanks

Tom

Daily Updates - Comics - Mine doesnt update

2009-01-02T13:52:19Z

Hi all,

I bet this is very simple, but I cannot get the comics to update daily. I know the basic functionality works, because the first start on 12/25.... it captured an initial comic set (but nothing since then).

The other functionality (that doesnt require updates) seems to work fine (theaters, weather, TV listings, etc).

Ideas?

Glenn

xcmd will not update to new path based on mh.private.ini

2008-09-28T11:06:19Z

Hello,

I'm attempting to use the xcmd_file to issue commands to mh from another program. Since I would eventually like to make the filesystem readonly I do not want to have to write commands to the standard $Pgm_Root/house_cmd.txt which is specified in the mh.ini file. Even though i have used a different path in my mh.private.ini file, misterhouse refuses to use anything but the default specified in mh.ini.

What do I need to do to get mh to accept the new path specified in my private ini file? It also seems to be ignoring my gd=0 command as well, so i get that annoying error on startup everytime. All other parameters in my private ini file seem to work though...

I would appreciate any help here. Thanks.

Matt

IM AND AUDIO PROBLEM

2008-04-02T18:52:22Z

Hello. I just installed the latest MH on a Windows 2000 box. I have setup AIM and all is well - I get a response from "what version" etc... and the "I don't understand.." message when I type gibberish, but after about 3 min or so whether idol or not, the MH user disconnects - there is no error message or otherwise in the console. The same goes for sound - all is working fine and then a few min in - the sound for the whole machine stops working - no message.

Thanks
E

Re: Perl Problem?

2008-01-16T19:35:04Z

I noticed in the display that the device was /dev/ttys0. I'm running a Suse 10.2 system and need to use an upper case S for the device /dev/ttyS0 in order to access the com1 serial port.

Bob

MS10A and motion item

2007-08-24T09:40:50Z

Ok,

I received my W800 in the mail last night and it has made everything BETTER, Faster! And now I can even use my security door sensors and monitor my alarm status! BUT. I can't figure out how to tie my MS10A security motion sensor to a motion item. I set it up in the x10.mht just like I set up the door items, tied to an RF item matching the sensor... and it doesn't work. Is motion item not set up to take status updates from an MS10A? All of my MS13's work fine in this manner.

-James

Perl Problem?

2007-07-09T20:27:34Z

I had the test_x10 working just fine. Then I moved onto working with the actual misterhouse. I changed mh.ini and got the web interface working. When I tried to turn a light on and off via the web interface it was not working. I am using an X10 CM11 via ttys0. since the web interface would not work, I backed tracked and tested the test_x10 again, now I get this error:

mythtv@mythtv:/myth/misterhouse-2.103/bin$ ./test_x10
Using interface=CM11 port=/dev/ttys0
Constant subroutine __USE_POSIX undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 8.
Constant subroutine __USE_POSIX2 undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 9.
Constant subroutine __USE_POSIX199309 undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 10.
Constant subroutine __USE_POSIX199506 undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 11.
Constant subroutine __USE_XOPEN undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 12.
Constant subroutine __USE_XOPEN_EXTENDED undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 13.
Constant subroutine __USE_UNIX98 undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 14.
Constant subroutine __USE_LARGEFILE undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 16.
Constant subroutine __USE_LARGEFILE64 undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 17.
Constant subroutine __USE_FILE_OFFSET64 undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 18.
Constant subroutine __USE_BSD undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 19.
Constant subroutine __USE_SVID undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 20.
Constant subroutine __USE_MISC undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 21.
Constant subroutine __USE_GNU undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 22.
Constant subroutine __USE_REENTRANT undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 23.
Constant subroutine _POSIX_SOURCE undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 48.
Constant subroutine _POSIX_C_SOURCE undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 50.
Constant subroutine _XOPEN_SOURCE undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 52.
Constant subroutine _XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 54.
Constant subroutine _LARGEFILE64_SOURCE undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 56.
Constant subroutine _LARGEFILE_SOURCE undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 98.
Constant subroutine __USE_ISOC99 undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 102.
Constant subroutine __GNU_LIBRARY__ undefined at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/features.ph line 146.
Number found where operator expected at (eval 114) line 1, near ")0"
(Missing operator before 0?)
can't open device: /dev/ttys0
at ./test_x10 line 52
Can't start /dev/ttys0
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at ./test_x10 line 67.

and nothing works. I checked to make sure /dev/ttys0 was executable by anyone. Any clues? thanks

Light_Item Failure to Sync with X10_Item with Restrictions

2007-06-21T19:10:43Z

I've run into a problem with the light restriction items again. It seems that when it's tied to any given light item it stops that light item from updating based upon X10_Item status. eg. when I turn on a light with a palmpad, the Light_Item for that X10 Item never turns on (even though the light really is on). In fact, it only changes status when some automation code tells it to (and then it issues the appropriate command to turn the light on).

After some testing and help from Gregg Liming I have my current problem solved, but the patch is not a permanent fix.

I am content with having my lights working, but the way that Light Restriction Items are implemented apparently needs some attention so that they sync with external devices.

-James

Re: k8055 wikispace/query

2007-06-12T13:41:13Z

Is this forum dead? and the wikispace too ?

k8055 wikispace/query

2007-06-01T06:20:10Z

I posted a question on the wiki space of the k8055 regarding setting it up to work on Misterhouse. Two weeks have passed with no reply so I am still at a bit of a loss.

I would guess that everyone contribributing to mh has other jobs/life/business to attend to with mh being a low priorty, me included, however I would appreciate some feedback from someone who has installed these k8055 boards on Linux mh (I use Mepis 6 soon to be Mepis 6.5 when the DVD arrives).
I
n return and not because of this but to give something back, I have web space unused which can be used for the mh project and also will give the schematics and electrical constuction details for the house which I am having built which I hope to use the k8055 boards instead of an X10 setup.

I have installed Stantor on an XP machine which works well but has yet no scripting, just an event decision process and database of events passed but the k8055 boards work well with Stantor. But it isn't Linux and it's not mh and I would prefer mh.

A mh.ini file, a test code file and an explanationof parameters k8055_host and K8055_port would be a good start
and the 'how to' I would certainly upload to my website together with perhaps trying to get Mepis to include mh in their standard repository ( I managed to persuade them to have amule incorporated last year) would that be a first for mh?

Keep up the good work and keep the faith as I can see from some posts that appreciation is not always forthcoming.

"Update of the Century" looking more prophetic every day

2007-05-03T13:38:32Z

Hadn't checked in on these losers in a while as I have been working on something more important outside of the HA arena. Not up on my MH mail either. Sorry to those who requested bits and pieces of my version (primarily the Web interface), but I just don't have time these days to oversee merges like I did with the first few "customers."

It's been almost a year since "my" version was released (quotes indicate that the merge got all fucked up by Matt Williams and then twiddled with for months to make it seem like he contributed something.) Looks like nothing has happened since. Certainly it was the update of the year. How many more years do you think this teetering crock of shit has left?

A few thoughts on recent posts:

- One of the usual buffoons mentioned recently that there was no way to extract MIME attachments. How soon these monkeys forget. That was one of my major improvements that never made it into the archive. That was near the end of last summer and dumbshit was busy ruining the X10 support and had me locked out at the time. And of course, there is email_motion, which has a typically mh amateur-hour example.

- Speaking of email, Tim Sailer was spotting trying to support internet_mail.pl. Christ on a crutch. The end is near. All that. And when he couldn't help, genius-boy chimed in that it doesn't work, but perhaps a new acronym would help, it's one we don't currently support, but maybe somebody, somewhere has written something, etc., etc. What a couple of fuckwads.

- And mother-fucker if somebody didn't ask AGAIN about CM15a/Windows and got ignored. WTF?! This latest example was particularly ridiculous as they asked about Insteon in the same breath. The one response that came back addressed Insteon only. Hello? I wrote a complete API-based (read: not a hack) Windows treatment for the CM15a last Fall. Why are these idiots so hell-bent on fading into oblivion as the last surviving CM11 app?

- I can't believe I saw a Windows user complain about mh_sound and volume control. My setup put that code through its paces with lots of different voices with varying volume settings, chimes, etc. And I ran the DJ constantly when music was playing. It never left the Windows mixer in a bad way (as opposed to all of the previous versions of mh, which fouled it up every time.) So it looks like somebody screwed with that file since or the repository-genius blew the merge like he did with the tk display code.

- And of course, MH is still married to the ridiculous IA5 Web interface, a full THREE YEARS and counting since I replaced it here and over a year since I started to prepare MH to use my version. In the meantime. that dumbass who wrote the shopping script has managed to make it even more frameset-dependant (as documented here in an earlier post.) Things don't look good on that front as last I heard somebody was pitching Flash as a viable solution. No need to panic as I think that was another Brent DeShazer-like effort (big announcement with screen shots and/or movies, followed by nothing at all.)

Anyway, the good news is that while I have been working on this other project, I have put my MH server back up and when I get around to it (or whever the SVN people get around to creating my project repository, whichever comes last), I will post my updates as incremental updates to 2.102 (just like I tried to do a year back.)

You idiots broke the forums

2007-02-15T17:48:44Z

Guess some people would rather make the user base suffer rather than hear the truth.

These are definitive losers. Incompetent, can't/won't listen to criticism and waste immense amounts of time trying to hide such criticism from others. Hint: you should have invested that time in fixing all of the bugs that were documented here, not trying to hide them from the stupid mailing list. At this point everybody already knows about your bullshit. You can't unring that bell.

Re: Did something change in the Misterhouse - User forum?

2007-02-15T17:25:01Z

MrT wrote:
> I just found the link on Nabble to flip the READ-ONLY bit OFF. I guess
> anyone and their uncle can flip this bit ON and OFF. Perhaps it was
> switched back ON after Dmark turned it OFF because it was ON when I visited
> the forum (13:15 EST). I wish they'd leave it OFF because I don't see the
> sense in preventing someone from posting through Nabble if they've already
> been accepted to post to the Misterhouse mailing list.

I turned that READ-ONLY bit on last week. I was trying to avoid
replies to nabble only posts, including some ill-tempered posts from
dmark, that were getting quote-replied to the main mailing list. This
would be confusing, as only partial threads were showing up on the
mailing list.

Looks like the READ-ONLY bit is currently off. Lets leave it that way
so forum users can post more easily. Those that do post from nabble,
be aware that anyone can post to nabble, so avoid replying to
inflammatory posts.

David, if you are reading this, I just updated the misterhouse-users
nabble forum to not be a Parent of your misterhouse-issues forum. I
think that will avoid the problem you were seeing of having your posts
to misterhouse-issues bouncing off the misterhouse-users mailing list.
If not, you probably also want to updated your forum so it does not
list misterhouse-users as a parent.

Bruce

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Re: Did something change in the Misterhouse - User forum?

2007-02-15T10:49:43Z

Those idiots turned it back ON?! They did that for one reason: they are to stupid to unsubscribe my email from their miserable mailing list (every time I post it bounces off the list.) So they fucked everybody else that uses this forum. It is a perfect microcosm of what happened to the project. They couldn't figure out how to administrate a branch in SVN, so they fucked everybody else by locking out my changes completely (all so they could patch, patch, patch in the main trunk, which is FUCKING BACKWARDS!)

I've had it with this shit. Anyone who wants my help can contact me through private email. I already have several "converts" who are moving away from the SVN version as it is just plain stupid to rely on patching monkeys. We are currently testing the new Web site with the 2.103 version. After that we will be folding in the X10 updates and all of the rest of it. So it is the best of both worlds: the scenes and xAP updates that I got in this fall through Gregg Liming are in there and all of the out-of-date stuff (my version is ancient at this point) is being merged and tested. There will ultimately be two public versions of MH to choose from. It sure won't be a hard choice!

I just found the link on Nabble to flip the READ-ONLY bit OFF. I guess anyone and their uncle can flip this bit ON and OFF. Perhaps it was switched back ON after Dmark turned it OFF because it was ON when I visited the forum (13:15 EST). I wish they'd leave it OFF because I don't see the sense in preventing someone from posting through Nabble if they've already been accepted to post to the Misterhouse mailing list.

dmark wrote:

That's odd retard. I fixed it in two seconds. And I sure as hell didn't create it.

Try reading the mailing list. Bruce Winter announced this bonehead move a week ago.

Matthew Williams-2 wrote:

MrT wrote:
> Ditto. I use Nabble and I am no longer able to post new topics in
> "Misterhouse-User" (hyperlinks are gone). However, I can respond to
> existing threads including one I started several days ago. Something has
> definitely changed in the last week.
>

I'm not sure who created the nabble "mirror" of the misterhouse-users list.
Whoever it is may be able to figure out what's happening. I don't think
that there is anything we can do from the main sourceforge list to help you
out. As a work-around, you can always send an e-mail directly to
misterhouse-users@lists.sourceforge.net to create a new thread.

Matt

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Re: Did something change in the Misterhouse - User forum?

2007-02-15T10:19:26Z

I just found the link on Nabble to flip the READ-ONLY bit OFF. I guess anyone and their uncle can flip this bit ON and OFF. Perhaps it was switched back ON after Dmark turned it OFF because it was ON when I visited the forum (13:15 EST). I wish they'd leave it OFF because I don't see the sense in preventing someone from posting through Nabble if they've already been accepted to post to the Misterhouse mailing list.

That's odd retard. I fixed it in two seconds. And I sure as hell didn't create it.

Try reading the mailing list. Bruce Winter announced this bonehead move a week ago.

Matthew Williams-2 wrote:

MrT wrote:
> Ditto. I use Nabble and I am no longer able to post new topics in
> "Misterhouse-User" (hyperlinks are gone). However, I can respond to
> existing threads including one I started several days ago. Something has
> definitely changed in the last week.
>

I'm not sure who created the nabble "mirror" of the misterhouse-users list.
Whoever it is may be able to figure out what's happening. I don't think
that there is anything we can do from the main sourceforge list to help you
out. As a work-around, you can always send an e-mail directly to
misterhouse-users@lists.sourceforge.net to create a new thread.

Matt

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Re: Did something change in the Misterhouse - User forum?

2007-02-15T08:17:08Z

That's odd retard. I fixed it in two seconds. And I sure as hell didn't create it.

Try reading the mailing list. Bruce Winter announced this bonehead move a week ago.

Matthew Williams-2 wrote:

MrT wrote:
> Ditto. I use Nabble and I am no longer able to post new topics in
> "Misterhouse-User" (hyperlinks are gone). However, I can respond to
> existing threads including one I started several days ago. Something has
> definitely changed in the last week.
>

I'm not sure who created the nabble "mirror" of the misterhouse-users list.
Whoever it is may be able to figure out what's happening. I don't think
that there is anything we can do from the main sourceforge list to help you
out. As a work-around, you can always send an e-mail directly to
misterhouse-users@lists.sourceforge.net to create a new thread.

Matt

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Re: Did something change in the Misterhouse - User forum?

2007-02-15T08:14:09Z

Those morons made the forum read-only (as promised.) That is very typical of them. They couldn't figure out how to administrate branches in SVN either. When they can't figure something out, they come up with a crude workaround. Welcome to the MH world!

Ditto. I use Nabble and I am no longer able to post new topics in "Misterhouse-User" (hyperlinks are gone). However, I can respond to existing threads including one I started several days ago. Something has definitely changed in the last week.

BTW, Nabble now indicates that I post "in a child forum listed above" namely "Misterhouse-Issues". What's up with that?

mbahr wrote:

I'm no longer able to post messages in the misterhouse-user forum. Is the forum closed? Or, is this "user error"?

-Mike

Re: Did something change in the Misterhouse - User forum?

2007-02-15T08:09:31Z

MrT wrote:
> Ditto. I use Nabble and I am no longer able to post new topics in
> "Misterhouse-User" (hyperlinks are gone). However, I can respond to
> existing threads including one I started several days ago. Something has
> definitely changed in the last week.
>

I'm not sure who created the nabble "mirror" of the misterhouse-users list.
Whoever it is may be able to figure out what's happening. I don't think
that there is anything we can do from the main sourceforge list to help you
out. As a work-around, you can always send an e-mail directly to
misterhouse-users@... to create a new thread.

Matt

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Re: Did something change in the Misterhouse - User forum?

2007-02-15T07:36:00Z

Ditto. I use Nabble and I am no longer able to post new topics in "Misterhouse-User" (hyperlinks are gone). However, I can respond to existing threads including one I started several days ago. Something has definitely changed in the last week.

BTW, Nabble now indicates that I post "in a child forum listed above" namely "Misterhouse-Issues". What's up with that?

mbahr wrote:

I'm no longer able to post messages in the misterhouse-user forum. Is the forum closed? Or, is this "user error"?

-Mike

Did something change in the Misterhouse - User forum?

2007-02-14T13:39:48Z

I'm no longer able to post messages in the misterhouse-user forum. Is the forum closed? Or, is this "user error"?

-Mike

MHX transplant a success!

2007-02-11T16:54:44Z

With the help of another user, I have successfully transplanted my Web interface onto 2.103. This means one of two things is about to happen:

1. The losers that have help up progress in the test version for almost a year now will finally admit they are idiots and get to work on fixing up IA5 and the various bin scripts to be compatible with my architecture. Likely they will force the users to keep IA5 as they wanna be MH geniuses at any cost!

2. This new hybrid version will be posted and worked on as a divergent version of MH (with a pay version available down the road that has improved graphics and additional features.)

If you want to join the behind-the-scenes testing, drop me a line... We need a few US residents to test it with the weather, TV, etc. As I recall, David Norwood yanked out my "chance of rain" module fixes almost a year ago because he couldn't understand them. Those will need to go back in if the first scenario plays out (I am not about to have his cross-eyed PERL bungling fuck up my pretty weather forecast page.) Other similar issues will need to be addressed in the various common code modules (TV grid comes to mind as it is hard-coded for some God-awful dark background color and per the usual MH idiocy, it has <html><head>, etc. at the top, which makes it impossible to include inside a template!)

Re: X10 status fix still not in the repository

2007-02-11T11:38:25Z

Unproductive? You are one to talk about that. God this getting surreal.

Unnecessary? Tell that to the people running your half-assed project.

And I don't give a fuck what annoys or aggravates you. Why don't you try fixing some of the shit posted here instead of wasting time gabbing with off-topic losers?

Bruce Winter wrote:

> Don't worry, he doesn't leave. He just subscribes with another email
> address.

I don't think he re-subscribed. We unsubscribed David from receiving
mailing list posts a few weeks ago, at his request. He created has his
own nabble forum here:

http://www.nabble.com/Misterhouse-Issues-f18237.html

So correspondence with David is best done to the above forum, or direct
email.

There have been a few recent (and nasty) posts by David to the nabble
forum mirror of this mailing list:

http://www.nabble.com/Misterhouse---User-f14394.html

Those posts are only on the nabble forum and are not echoed to the
subscriber list of this mailing list, so if you want to respond to
those, please do so via direct email, not via this list.

I'll see if I can change the nabble forum to be read only, so we avoid
this cross-posting confusion in the future.

> However, this whole rant *will* make for an interesting defamation suit if
> Bruce ever gets sufficiently annoyed.

I am annoyed by his name calling (so unhappy, unproductive, and
unnecessary), but I think I'd be even more annoyed if we had to deal
with a lawsuit. Hopefully he can find people he can work well with on
his forum and he will not try to further aggravate the rest of us.

Bruce

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Re: X10 status fix still not in the repository

2007-02-11T11:34:01Z

Maybe you should consider staying on topic "Dickie." We don't need another Tim Sailer in here. If you and the other dicksucker don't have anything to say about the fucking program, then shut the fuck up. Idiots.

< Dickie Bradford > wrote:

Maybe he should consider more Fiber in his diet ...lol :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: misterhouse-users-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net
[mailto:misterhouse-users-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net]On Behalf Of Tim
Sailer
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:03 PM
To: The main list for the MisterHouse home automation program
Subject: Re: [mh] X10 status fix still not in the repository

On Sat, February 10, 2007 17:38, MrT said:
> I'm sorry to hear that things have soured to the point that you're giving
> up
> on MH (and the old-timers have given up on you). I'll miss your
> contributions to 'old MH' but I do look forward to trying out your 'new
> MH'.

Don't worry, he doesn't leave. He just subscribes with another email
address.

However, this whole rant *will* make for an interesting defamation suit if
Bruce ever gets sufficiently annoyed.

Tim

--
Tim Sailer
Coastal Internet, Inc.
www.buoy.com
631-399-2910

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Re: X10 status fix still not in the repository

2007-02-11T10:00:24Z

> Don't worry, he doesn't leave. He just subscribes with another email
> address.

I don't think he re-subscribed. We unsubscribed David from receiving
mailing list posts a few weeks ago, at his request. He created has his
own nabble forum here:

http://www.nabble.com/Misterhouse-Issues-f18237.html

So correspondence with David is best done to the above forum, or direct
email.

There have been a few recent (and nasty) posts by David to the nabble
forum mirror of this mailing list:

http://www.nabble.com/Misterhouse---User-f14394.html

Those posts are only on the nabble forum and are not echoed to the
subscriber list of this mailing list, so if you want to respond to
those, please do so via direct email, not via this list.

I'll see if I can change the nabble forum to be read only, so we avoid
this cross-posting confusion in the future.

> However, this whole rant *will* make for an interesting defamation suit if
> Bruce ever gets sufficiently annoyed.

I am annoyed by his name calling (so unhappy, unproductive, and
unnecessary), but I think I'd be even more annoyed if we had to deal
with a lawsuit. Hopefully he can find people he can work well with on
his forum and he will not try to further aggravate the rest of us.

Bruce

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Re: X10 status fix still not in the repository

2007-02-11T05:42:56Z

Maybe he should consider more Fiber in his diet ...lol :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: misterhouse-users-bounces@...
[mailto:misterhouse-users-bounces@...]On Behalf Of Tim
Sailer
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:03 PM
To: The main list for the MisterHouse home automation program
Subject: Re: [mh] X10 status fix still not in the repository

On Sat, February 10, 2007 17:38, MrT said:
> I'm sorry to hear that things have soured to the point that you're giving
> up
> on MH (and the old-timers have given up on you). I'll miss your
> contributions to 'old MH' but I do look forward to trying out your 'new
> MH'.

Don't worry, he doesn't leave. He just subscribes with another email
address.

However, this whole rant *will* make for an interesting defamation suit if
Bruce ever gets sufficiently annoyed.

Tim

--
Tim Sailer
Coastal Internet, Inc.
www.buoy.com
631-399-2910

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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easier.
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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.33/678 - Release Date: 2/9/2007
4:06 PM

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Re: X10 status fix still not in the repository

2007-02-10T23:37:13Z

Subscribe to what moron? This is a stand-alone forum. And thanks to your dumbass move of forwarding my post about this forum to the mailing list, people are starting to come here and read about how fucked up this project is.

I can't believe you would even show your miserable face in here after that bonehead play.

And fuck you and your instigating bullshit. I dare Bruce Winter or you or any of those other fuckwads to sue me. Go ahead. Please. What are you waiting for?! Everything I said is true. You are a stupid-ass, cringing little cocksucker. How's that. Sue me Tim Sailer. I "defamed" you! LOL.

And you want to come in my branch and talk off-topic? Lets talk about your fucking piece of shit Web site.

You claim on your front page that your design service is "top notch." More accurately: it sucks dicks.

1. Table-based slab-like layout. What a surprise.
2. JavaScript error (syntax error) on the front page. LOL.
3. Commented inline style? You must have read that popular book: "How Not to Write a Web page."
4. What the fuck kind of tags are "csactions?"
5. You've got 50 validation errors on the front page alone, including a missing doctype declaration, which is the height of cluelessness.
6. No meta tags for keywords, descriptions or anything else (other than the character set.) The search engines just love that! What a horse's ass.
7. And that "POP search" link doesn't work without scripting enabled. No wonder as the link is "#". You suck.

Anybody who would pay your ass to "redevelop" their site would have to be out of their fucking mind. Now sue me bitch! Here's a hint: it can't be defamation if it is TRUE!

Tim Sailer-2 wrote:

On Sat, February 10, 2007 17:38, MrT said:
> I'm sorry to hear that things have soured to the point that you're giving
> up
> on MH (and the old-timers have given up on you). I'll miss your
> contributions to 'old MH' but I do look forward to trying out your 'new
> MH'.

Don't worry, he doesn't leave. He just subscribes with another email address.

However, this whole rant *will* make for an interesting defamation suit if
Bruce ever gets sufficiently annoyed.

Tim

--
Tim Sailer
Coastal Internet, Inc.
www.buoy.com
631-399-2910

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier.
Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
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________________________________________________________
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Re: X10 status fix still not in the repository

2007-02-10T19:03:09Z

On Sat, February 10, 2007 17:38, MrT said:
> I'm sorry to hear that things have soured to the point that you're giving
> up
> on MH (and the old-timers have given up on you). I'll miss your
> contributions to 'old MH' but I do look forward to trying out your 'new
> MH'.

Don't worry, he doesn't leave. He just subscribes with another email address.

However, this whole rant *will* make for an interesting defamation suit if
Bruce ever gets sufficiently annoyed.

Tim

--
Tim Sailer
Coastal Internet, Inc.
www.buoy.com
631-399-2910

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier.
Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
________________________________________________________
To unsubscribe from this list, go to: http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=1365

MHX Image files

2007-02-10T18:01:22Z

Suddenly as I am leaving, people are starting to find this forum and expressing an interest in the updates. Why not start with the Web server/scripts/pages as the issues are well documented here (and many of the files are already posted!)

Here are the old IA5 images (split into a new hierarchy) with some new ones that I slapped together. I am holding back the roughly three hundred new icons that my brother made for the commercial version (he spent a lot of time on them, many are animated, so I am not giving them away!) Same goes for the (almost exactly) 300 MIME icons for the new email module. In time those may be put back in the free version (they were uploaded last Fall when I was temporarily allowed back in the repository, but shithead deleted them!)

Anyway, unzip in web/graphics. Then find the post with the actual MHX pages and put them in web/mhx. Then contact me by email for a known good copy of my http_server.pl from last Fall some time (I can't give out the very latest one as I was working on it right before I quit running MH, so it is in an unknown state.) The good news is that the slightly older one hadn't been touched in a year and a half and served my touch screens quite well (as well as outside visitors, guests, etc.)

Then read the post about the web/bin and web/misc files. We will have to decide which to overwrite with my (years old) versions (many haven't changed anyway) and which to perform the minor surgery on (documented in minute detail in the post.) I covered all of the bases with my previous posts on the subject. I knew it was just a matter of time before intelligent people found this branch and recognized the disaster that is being orchestrated by Matt Williams, Tim Sailer, etc. Speaking of Tim Sailer, thanks for getting the word out by forwarding my message to the mailing list. You did it you beautiful feeb! :)

And of course, IA5 will break in various places. I covered that as well (in fact, I posted the fix for that a full year ago!) Anyway, that is covered in the previous post as well. The only reason that those perfectly compatible changes weren't implemented last spring is that Matt Williams said "But there aren't any interfaces without frames!" He never figured out the whole "chicken and egg", "cart and horse", etc. issue. So we break IA5 and if anybody really misses it, Matt Williams, David Norwood, et al. can then clean it up per my instructions. Might as well start now... Get to work you bums! You haven't done anything in the last year but bitch and moan and defend Brent DeShazer's right to post vaporware movies.MHXimages.zip

Re: X10 status fix still not in the repository

2007-02-10T16:37:13Z

I agree. One thing I would like to point out is that the "elders" weren't doing anything (and still aren't.) They just like to hang out in the mailing list like it is some sort of social club. I never beat the crap out of them until:

A. They (actually just one of the dorks) locked me out with tons of updates hanging (and still hanging as they don't know how to finish anything I started.)

B. I heard through the grapevine that Bruce Winter was threatening to sue me over the "New MH" (MH Pro is what I am going to call it.) That's enough to make me vomit. Especially since I talked to him at length about the GNU license before I wrote a single line of MH code (I always intended to release some sort of book/CD combination and still do.) And like I said in the previous post: do your worst jackass!

Anyway, your comments are much appreciated! And I will still answer questions in this branch of the forum (if only to further humiliate the idiot who locked me out.)

I think every community should include people who think differently and challenge the status quo. Otherwise, the community becomes stagnant. It is clear you've put in a lot of effort to revamp MH but, somewhere along the way, you incensed the village elders and now you're a pariah. That's a shame because an open-source project can't afford to alienate its contributors. But that's a two-way street and contributors (especially angry and frustrated contributors) shouldn't alienate the community.

Your work speaks for itself and I think the everyone appreciates your time and effort. I imagine even the old-timers recognize and appreciate it (albeit silently and begrudgingly). Your frustration is also evident by the disparaging remarks you've made regarding everything and everyone. Well, it adds melodrama to the project but doesn't move it forward. If you're convinced MH and its developers are a 'dead horse' then consider that beating the crap out of it won't make it gallop.

I'm sorry to hear that things have soured to the point that you're giving up on MH (and the old-timers have given up on you). I'll miss your contributions to 'old MH' but I do look forward to trying out your 'new MH'.

dmark wrote:

From the latest source:

my ($house, $device, $state) = $event_data1 =~ /(\S)(\S)\S{0,2}STATUS_(\S+)/;

$event_data1 =~ s/\S\SSTATUS_$state//g;
$event_data = "X" . $event_data1;

$state = 'J' if $state eq 'ON';
$state = 'K' if $state eq 'OFF';
my $event_data = 'X' . $house . $device . $house . $state;

None of you dumbasses can see what is wrong with this? Well of course you can as I have told you numerous times. In fact, I fixed this for somebody off-list THREE FUCKING MONTHS AGO! It is a simple regex cockup (similar to dozens of others found in the X10 processing.)

Now how is it that these "geniuses" can't fix this when I gave them the answer? Because they are just that fucking stupid that they would let the project fall apart beneath their feet before they listen to me, despite the fact that most of the positive changes in the last two years are mine (and most of the changes were to code that was rotting for years.)

It should look something like this:

# my $event_data1 = "F1FSTATUS_ONF1FJ"; # Example of what MH's stupid controller modules pass to this function
my ($house, $device, $state) = $event_data1 =~ /([A-P])([1-9])\1\S{0,2}STATUS_(ON|OFF)/;

$event_data1 =~ s/$1$2$1STATUS_$state//g;

$state = 'J' if $state eq 'ON';
$state = 'K' if $state eq 'OFF';

my $event_data2 = 'X' . $house . $device . $house . $state;
$event_data1 =~ s/$house$device$house$state//g; # Delete Smarthome stutter from stream
$event_data = ($event_data1)?"X" . $event_data1:'';

if (my @refs = &Device_Item::items_by_id($event_data2)) {

What is wrong with these fuckheads?! They can't code, can't debug, can't keep track of forums, can't do fucking anything apparently and as soon as somebody comes along that can, they bury their heads in the sand.

And of course, this is still fucked up in X10_Items:

if (length($id) == 2) {
$self->add ($id . 'O', 'on');
$self->add ($id . 'P', 'off');
$self->add ($id . 'L', 'brighten');
$self->add ($id . 'M', 'dim');
$self->add ($id . 'STATUS', 'status');
}

What is wrong with THAT picture?!

Even worse (and related to the above fuckup:)

if (length($self->{x10_id}) == 2 and ($state ne 'on' and $state ne 'off')) {
my $hc = substr $self->{x10_id}, 1; # Drop the X prefix
&set_by_housecode($hc, $state);
}

FUCKING IDIOTS! Are you brain-dead? Never used X10? Can't follow logic for more than two lines at a time?! Look at that! That is obviously not right. The turtles strike again and nobody has the guts to call a piece of shit a piece of shit. If $state is not 'on' and not 'off' (ON and OFF fuckheads), then according to the bullshit code above, it must be one of ('brighten', 'dim', 'status'.) Soooooooo. If you set A to 'dim', this logic will then call set_by_housecode:

sub set_by_housecode {
my ($hc, $state) = @_;
for my $object (@{$items_by_house_code{$hc}}) {
next if $object->{type} =~ /transmit/i; # Do not set transmitters
# next if $object->isa('X10_Transmitter'); # This would work also
print "Setting X10 House code $hc item $object to $state\n" if $main::Debug{x10};
$object->set_receive($state, 'housecode');
}

return if $state eq 'on'; # All lights on does not effect appliances

for my $object (@{$appliances_by_house_code{$hc}}) {
print "Setting X10 House code $hc appliance $object to $state\n" if $main::Debug{x10};
$object->set_receive($state, 'housecode');
}

}

So now every item on that house code is set to 'dim.' You fucking morons. set_by_housecode is for ALL LIGHTS ON | ALL OFF (and should also work with ALL LIGHTS OFF, but one step at a time!)

You fuckups! Look at this line in there:

return if $state eq 'on'; # All lights on does not effect appliances

GET IT?! Are you fucking brain-dead?! And I have posted this HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES?!

My rather bombastic point should be taken to mean: if these tortoises can't fix one glaring, deplorable fuckup like this after MONTHS of prodding, what possible hope is there for the other thousands of lines of hack PERL code?! Answer: no hope (unless you are a Windows user, in which case there will be an alternative...)

And you know what? I may just release my entire MH as "MH Pro" or something. I already got permission from the head shit-for-brains years ago. And I don't need his permission anyway. You fucking hear that Bruce Winter? I dare you and your fucking EFF (or whatever-the-fuck) buddies to sue me. I fucking double-dare you! I would LOVE it! It would give my lawyers some exercise anyway. Fuck your mother! You fucking bitch. I don't think you have the balls to cross me my friend.

That's it. I am out of here. Please hold your applause...

Re: X10 status fix still not in the repository

2007-02-10T14:38:17Z

I think every community should include people who think differently and challenge the status quo. Otherwise, the community becomes stagnant. It is clear you've put in a lot of effort to revamp MH but, somewhere along the way, you incensed the village elders and now you're a pariah. That's a shame because an open-source project can't afford to alienate its contributors. But that's a two-way street and contributors (especially angry and frustrated contributors) shouldn't alienate the community.

Your work speaks for itself and I think the everyone appreciates your time and effort. I imagine even the old-timers recognize and appreciate it (albeit silently and begrudgingly). Your frustration is also evident by the disparaging remarks you've made regarding everything and everyone. Well, it adds melodrama to the project but doesn't move it forward. If you're convinced MH and its developers are a 'dead horse' then consider that beating the crap out of it won't make it gallop.

I'm sorry to hear that things have soured to the point that you're giving up on MH (and the old-timers have given up on you). I'll miss your contributions to 'old MH' but I do look forward to trying out your 'new MH'.

dmark wrote:

From the latest source:

my ($house, $device, $state) = $event_data1 =~ /(\S)(\S)\S{0,2}STATUS_(\S+)/;

$event_data1 =~ s/\S\SSTATUS_$state//g;
$event_data = "X" . $event_data1;

$state = 'J' if $state eq 'ON';
$state = 'K' if $state eq 'OFF';
my $event_data = 'X' . $house . $device . $house . $state;

None of you dumbasses can see what is wrong with this? Well of course you can as I have told you numerous times. In fact, I fixed this for somebody off-list THREE FUCKING MONTHS AGO! It is a simple regex cockup (similar to dozens of others found in the X10 processing.)

Now how is it that these "geniuses" can't fix this when I gave them the answer? Because they are just that fucking stupid that they would let the project fall apart beneath their feet before they listen to me, despite the fact that most of the positive changes in the last two years are mine (and most of the changes were to code that was rotting for years.)

It should look something like this:

# my $event_data1 = "F1FSTATUS_ONF1FJ"; # Example of what MH's stupid controller modules pass to this function
my ($house, $device, $state) = $event_data1 =~ /([A-P])([1-9])\1\S{0,2}STATUS_(ON|OFF)/;

$event_data1 =~ s/$1$2$1STATUS_$state//g;

$state = 'J' if $state eq 'ON';
$state = 'K' if $state eq 'OFF';

my $event_data2 = 'X' . $house . $device . $house . $state;
$event_data1 =~ s/$house$device$house$state//g; # Delete Smarthome stutter from stream
$event_data = ($event_data1)?"X" . $event_data1:'';

if (my @refs = &Device_Item::items_by_id($event_data2)) {

What is wrong with these fuckheads?! They can't code, can't debug, can't keep track of forums, can't do fucking anything apparently and as soon as somebody comes along that can, they bury their heads in the sand.

And of course, this is still fucked up in X10_Items:

if (length($id) == 2) {
$self->add ($id . 'O', 'on');
$self->add ($id . 'P', 'off');
$self->add ($id . 'L', 'brighten');
$self->add ($id . 'M', 'dim');
$self->add ($id . 'STATUS', 'status');
}

What is wrong with THAT picture?!

Even worse (and related to the above fuckup:)

if (length($self->{x10_id}) == 2 and ($state ne 'on' and $state ne 'off')) {
my $hc = substr $self->{x10_id}, 1; # Drop the X prefix
&set_by_housecode($hc, $state);
}

FUCKING IDIOTS! Are you brain-dead? Never used X10? Can't follow logic for more than two lines at a time?! Look at that! That is obviously not right. The turtles strike again and nobody has the guts to call a piece of shit a piece of shit. If $state is not 'on' and not 'off' (ON and OFF fuckheads), then according to the bullshit code above, it must be one of ('brighten', 'dim', 'status'.) Soooooooo. If you set A to 'dim', this logic will then call set_by_housecode:

sub set_by_housecode {
my ($hc, $state) = @_;
for my $object (@{$items_by_house_code{$hc}}) {
next if $object->{type} =~ /transmit/i; # Do not set transmitters
# next if $object->isa('X10_Transmitter'); # This would work also
print "Setting X10 House code $hc item $object to $state\n" if $main::Debug{x10};
$object->set_receive($state, 'housecode');
}

return if $state eq 'on'; # All lights on does not effect appliances

for my $object (@{$appliances_by_house_code{$hc}}) {
print "Setting X10 House code $hc appliance $object to $state\n" if $main::Debug{x10};
$object->set_receive($state, 'housecode');
}

}

So now every item on that house code is set to 'dim.' You fucking morons. set_by_housecode is for ALL LIGHTS ON | ALL OFF (and should also work with ALL LIGHTS OFF, but one step at a time!)

You fuckups! Look at this line in there:

return if $state eq 'on'; # All lights on does not effect appliances

GET IT?! Are you fucking brain-dead?! And I have posted this HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES?!

My rather bombastic point should be taken to mean: if these tortoises can't fix one glaring, deplorable fuckup like this after MONTHS of prodding, what possible hope is there for the other thousands of lines of hack PERL code?! Answer: no hope (unless you are a Windows user, in which case there will be an alternative...)

And you know what? I may just release my entire MH as "MH Pro" or something. I already got permission from the head shit-for-brains years ago. And I don't need his permission anyway. You fucking hear that Bruce Winter? I dare you and your fucking EFF (or whatever-the-fuck) buddies to sue me. I fucking double-dare you! I would LOVE it! It would give my lawyers some exercise anyway. Fuck your mother! You fucking bitch. I don't think you have the balls to cross me my friend.

That's it. I am out of here. Please hold your applause...

X10 status fix still not in the repository

2007-02-09T21:38:25Z

From the latest source:

my ($house, $device, $state) = $event_data1 =~ /(\S)(\S)\S{0,2}STATUS_(\S+)/;

$event_data1 =~ s/\S\SSTATUS_$state//g;
$event_data = "X" . $event_data1;

$state = 'J' if $state eq 'ON';
$state = 'K' if $state eq 'OFF';
my $event_data = 'X' . $house . $device . $house . $state;

None of you dumbasses can see what is wrong with this? Well of course you can as I have told you numerous times. In fact, I fixed this for somebody off-list THREE FUCKING MONTHS AGO! It is a simple regex cockup (similar to dozens of others found in the X10 processing.)

Now how is it that these "geniuses" can't fix this when I gave them the answer? Because they are just that fucking stupid that they would let the project fall apart beneath their feet before they listen to me, despite the fact that most of the positive changes in the last two years are mine (and most of the changes were to code that was rotting for years.)

It should look something like this:

# my $event_data1 = "F1FSTATUS_ONF1FJ"; # Example of what MH's stupid controller modules pass to this function
my ($house, $device, $state) = $event_data1 =~ /([A-P])([1-9])\1\S{0,2}STATUS_(ON|OFF)/;

$event_data1 =~ s/$1$2$1STATUS_$state//g;

$state = 'J' if $state eq 'ON';
$state = 'K' if $state eq 'OFF';

my $event_data2 = 'X' . $house . $device . $house . $state;
$event_data1 =~ s/$house$device$house$state//g; # Delete Smarthome stutter from stream
$event_data = ($event_data1)?"X" . $event_data1:'';

if (my @refs = &Device_Item::items_by_id($event_data2)) {

What is wrong with these fuckheads?! They can't code, can't debug, can't keep track of forums, can't do fucking anything apparently and as soon as somebody comes along that can, they bury their heads in the sand.

And of course, this is still fucked up in X10_Items:

if (length($id) == 2) {
$self->add ($id . 'O', 'on');
$self->add ($id . 'P', 'off');
$self->add ($id . 'L', 'brighten');
$self->add ($id . 'M', 'dim');
$self->add ($id . 'STATUS', 'status');
}

What is wrong with THAT picture?!

Even worse (and related to the above fuckup:)

if (length($self->{x10_id}) == 2 and ($state ne 'on' and $state ne 'off')) {
my $hc = substr $self->{x10_id}, 1; # Drop the X prefix
&set_by_housecode($hc, $state);
}

FUCKING IDIOTS! Are you brain-dead? Never used X10? Can't follow logic for more than two lines at a time?! Look at that! That is obviously not right. The turtles strike again and nobody has the guts to call a piece of shit a piece of shit. If $state is not 'on' and not 'off' (ON and OFF fuckheads), then according to the bullshit code above, it must be one of ('brighten', 'dim', 'status'.) Soooooooo. If you set A to 'dim', this logic will then call set_by_housecode:

sub set_by_housecode {
my ($hc, $state) = @_;
for my $object (@{$items_by_house_code{$hc}}) {
next if $object->{type} =~ /transmit/i; # Do not set transmitters
# next if $object->isa('X10_Transmitter'); # This would work also
print "Setting X10 House code $hc item $object to $state\n" if $main::Debug{x10};
$object->set_receive($state, 'housecode');
}

return if $state eq 'on'; # All lights on does not effect appliances

for my $object (@{$appliances_by_house_code{$hc}}) {
print "Setting X10 House code $hc appliance $object to $state\n" if $main::Debug{x10};
$object->set_receive($state, 'housecode');
}

}

So now every item on that house code is set to 'dim.' You fucking morons. set_by_housecode is for ALL LIGHTS ON | ALL OFF (and should also work with ALL LIGHTS OFF, but one step at a time!)

You fuckups! Look at this line in there:

return if $state eq 'on'; # All lights on does not effect appliances

GET IT?! Are you fucking brain-dead?! And I have posted this HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES?!

My rather bombastic point should be taken to mean: if these tortoises can't fix one glaring, deplorable fuckup like this after MONTHS of prodding, what possible hope is there for the other thousands of lines of hack PERL code?! Answer: no hope (unless you are a Windows user, in which case there will be an alternative...)

And you know what? I may just release my entire MH as "MH Pro" or something. I already got permission from the head shit-for-brains years ago. And I don't need his permission anyway. You fucking hear that Bruce Winter? I dare you and your fucking EFF (or whatever-the-fuck) buddies to sue me. I fucking double-dare you! I would LOVE it! It would give my lawyers some exercise anyway. Fuck your mother! You fucking bitch. I don't think you have the balls to cross me my friend.

That's it. I am out of here. Please hold your applause...

Best X10 controller?

2007-02-09T18:52:49Z

I see this huge thread about hardware. Odd that nobody discusses the elephant in the room (that the MH X10 processing is terribly flawed.) And has nobody figured out why the house-code-only (eg XA, XB, etc.) commands are set up wrong? Does nobody else understand that you can send ON and OFF to all addressed units? Or that the ALL LIGHTS ON | ALL OFF | ALL LIGHTS OFF stuff doesn't set states properly as of some time last fall. That is the least of the worries though (the primary problem is inside the seven-year-old process_serial_data function.) See the "X10 Idiocy" post for more details...

Anyway, the CM15a for sure. What else can download timers and macros that control everything in the X10 universe (including alarms, camera bases, etc.) Clue: downloaded macros in an HA setup are like stored procedures in databases (invaluable.) Does that clear the fog at all? If you can do it without the PC, do it without the PC. It doesn't seem to hard to understand that EPROM is more reliable than a clattering PC and looping PERL code! You use software to build on top of the scenes, macros and timers. Get it? Then you can go on vacation and not have to worry about your computers.

Of course MH doesn't support it. Sure as hell not on Windows and not very competently on Linux either. And that is pathetic because I posted the Windows treatment months ago. In the three months that I used MH with the CM15a, I never had one lockup or missed signal (in contrast, the CM11a's signals would collide and disappear at random, usually due to motion sensors.)

Re: Cepstral question.....

2007-02-08T18:33:14Z

voice_cmd = MSV5
voice_cmd_response = Okay, %HEARD%.
voice_text = MSV5

voice_names = female=>Cepstral Diane, male=>Cepstral David, male1=>Microsoft Mike, male2=>Microsoft Mike, Mary=>Microsoft Mary, Mike=>Microsoft Mike, Sam=>Microsoft Sam, Diane=>Cepstral Diane

Interesting that you mention SAPI5. I have that installed, but I question whether MH really uses it for voice commands (VR not TTS.) Near as I can tell, it uses the old SAPI4 voice commands. My app uses SAPI5 and can hear anything (not just pre-programmed commands.) I know that the ActiveX object that MH instantiates for VR (not TTS) is easily broken, typically by installing the SAPI5 SDK. Hmmm.

And what is the exact error message?

pixelflash wrote:

If I try to use Cepstral voices with WinXP, I get an error message. I can use Microsoft voices just fine. I can use the Cesptral vocies in other Windows functions so I believe that I have SAPI5 installed correctly. However, if I select Cepstral vocies in Control Panel:Speech, nothing happens other than an error message.

The error message from mh says something to the effect of (excuse me but I am at work and not home so I can't get the exact error just now): Voice_Text error: params: volume.............

Is there anyone using the two together that might be willing to send me their mh.ini? Maybe I have some params set wrong in mine. I have it set to MS for voice. When I specify a name then it spits out an error message for that too.