Most pertinent on v11.4 converting question

[psmith-3]

Chip,

Sorry I didn't answer your post, since a good answer would require  
spending time following links in this legacy system to see which cases  
apply. I have other problems right now with that db, so I haven't  
gotten back to your specific questions.

However, one example is where an Addresses table is pointed to by an  
Invoice table and an Invoice lines table. The result is that when the  
user goes into a record of the invoice lines table, the Invoice record  
is lost due to the common relationship with the Addresses table. Bad  
design, as well as a limitation in 4D's relational model, which  
requires the links to be predefined.


Paul Smith

TSE International

On 1 juil. 2009, at 00:09, Chip Scheide <4d_Only@...>  
wrote:

>
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:44:06 -0400, Charles Miller wrote:
>>
>> In all databases circular relations should be avoided like the  
>> plague. In
>> SQL dbs, you do implicit or explcict joins to get from table a to  
>> table b.
>> It is only in a db that allows you to have auto relations where  
>> this is
>> pertinent.
>
> maybe there is a definition issue here - to me :
> a circular relation - is any pathway through relations which can lead
> back to the originating table.
>
> Relation, in 4D - arrows drawn between a primary key, and a foreign
> key, usually in two separate tables.
> These may be fully automatic (1 -> Many and Many -> 1), partially
> automatic (1 -> Many, OR, Many -> 1), or completely manual.
>
> So...The relations do not have to be automatic to create a circular
> pathway, and hence a circular relation.
>
>
>
> Hence my initial question regarding Paul's original post, Paul said
> (clipped and *ed)
>
> "As for the aspects of converting the code, this legacy database was
> designed with some ** circular references ** in the links. Many of the
> links are manual, to try to avoid problems. However, v11 is more
> strict with regards to this. Many areas in the database with related
> records in forms that worked in the past stopped working (parent
> record absent when editing child record, etc)."
>
>
> my initial question (clipped) :
>
> "The issue(s) you saw were they specific too (sic) automatic 4D
> relations
> (auto one or auto many, or both)?
> Or were the issue(s) related to the simple *existence* of the circular
> relation?"  <-- implying a pathway of completely manual relations
>
>
>
>
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[Arnold Cordewiner]

I'm happy to say we successfully went live with our app on v11 this past Monday. This is a conversion from 2003.7 on windows 2000 server to v11 on windows server 2003. At the same time we eliminated all subtable functionality.

It has been running solidly for 3 days now with 50 concurrent users, no data corruption (which was my main concern). The difference in speed is quite remarkable, although upgrading from a 2 core server with 1.5GB RAM to an 8 core with 32 GB must have made a difference as well :)

Regards,
Arnold.

Dit e-mailbericht en alle documenten die ermee verzonden worden, zijn
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[Matt Houghton-Thompson]

Our experience running  v11.4 server with 200-220 concurrent users has
been a mixed bag.

On the plus side, v11 is as fast as advertised and 200+ users doesn't
seem to slow it down.  Users will see no ill effects from reports that
would slow everyone down in 2004.

On the negative is server stability.  v11.4 is just not as bulletproof
as 2004.7.  Perhaps some of our issues will turn out to be our fault,
but the fact remains that we were more stable on 2004.  I'd say there
are three main issues:

1.  crashes: it sounds like 4D is making progress on fixing crash
bugs.  Also, doing a complete re-index when a crash does occur and
frequent restarts have reduced our crashes.

2.  "Rogue clients".  See the "4DV11 Server - show stoppers (final)"
thread.  It is disconcerting how much a client can affect the server
in this version.  Hopefully v11.5 will be better.

3.  Hangs after being up a certain amount of time.  When left
unattended, our server will hang once or twice a day.  The amount of
time various, but does not appear to be random.  Cache size has a big
affect on how long we can stay running.  It seems to be related to the
amount of data passing through the cache.  I originally thought it was
related to data passing through the cache at a given moment, but there
have been 4 hangs during "off hours" which seems to indicate it is
total amount of data.  One was during a Saturday which is a much
lighter day for us.  Then there were three that happened in the middle
of the night.  After 30-60 minutes, the server recovered.  If it
weren't for errors reported on the 4 batch clients running overnight,
we wouldn't have even knew about them.    When hung, we find the menus
to be responsive on the server, but they don't do anything.  After a
few clicks, the application is reported as "Not Responding" by Windows
and we kill it.  90% of the time there is nothing to integrate into
the log which makes me suspect this is happening soon after a cache
flush.

Conclusion:  having to restart twice a day is frustrating, but we are
sticking with v11 due to the huge performance gains and we may have
upgraded even if we knew in April what we know now.  I suspect most
smaller installations will not have the problems we are having as long
as they have a large enough cache.  I recommend anyone with 100+ users
test their application under high load for a least a full business day
before deployment.

-Matt H-T.
Sweetwater Sound
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[Jeffrey Kain]

Matt, what kind of server do you have? What's the mix of clients (Mac vs.
Windows)?

Jeff

On 7/1/09 10:16 AM, "Matt Houghton-Thompson" <mattht4dnug@...> wrote:

> Our experience running  v11.4 server with 200-220 concurrent users has
> been a mixed bag.

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[Matt Houghton-Thompson]

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Jeffrey Kain<jkain@...> wrote:
> Matt, what kind of server do you have? What's the mix of clients (Mac vs.
> Windows)?
>
> Jeff

Server:
Dell with 4 Intel Xeon X7460 2.66GHz processors (I guess these are 6
cores each as Task Manager shows 24 CPUs)
64 GB RAM
Win2008 Enterprise 64bit SP1
Don't remember the drive specs, but it is RAID 10

4D Server:
cache is 2400 MB, adaptive turned off
SQL server is running and can have up to 4 ODBC clients connected
UNICODE off
flush buffers at 15 minutes (we tried 1, 5, and 15)

4D Remote (Client):
- no Windows
- most are running 10.5.7 on an Intel MacMini
- there are some PowerPC machines too
- there are a few clients still on OS 10.5.6 (like mine)
- most have 2GB of RAM
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[Daniel Müller-3]

I am not sure, but maybe 4D v11 does not use all the new bells and  
whistles when not in unicode mode. It is not the default mode, so  
maybe it´s not as stable and tested. You should give it a try in  
unicode mode.
Your database must be imported from 2004 or else you would not be able  
to turn off unicode at all. Maybe you should try to move all your  
objects in a new, v11-native database structure.


Regards,
Daniel Müller



Am 01.07.2009 um 16:43 schrieb Matt Houghton-Thompson:

> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Jeffrey Kain<jkain@...>  
> wrote:
>> Matt, what kind of server do you have? What's the mix of clients  
>> (Mac vs.
>> Windows)?
>>
>> Jeff
>
> Server:
> Dell with 4 Intel Xeon X7460 2.66GHz processors (I guess these are 6
> cores each as Task Manager shows 24 CPUs)
> 64 GB RAM
> Win2008 Enterprise 64bit SP1
> Don't remember the drive specs, but it is RAID 10
>
> 4D Server:
> cache is 2400 MB, adaptive turned off
> SQL server is running and can have up to 4 ODBC clients connected
> UNICODE off
> flush buffers at 15 minutes (we tried 1, 5, and 15)
>
> 4D Remote (Client):
> - no Windows
> - most are running 10.5.7 on an Intel MacMini
> - there are some PowerPC machines too
> - there are a few clients still on OS 10.5.6 (like mine)
> - most have 2GB of RAM
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Viele Grüße
Daniel Müller

informatikberatung Renner
Lange Str. 172a
D-44581 Castrop-Rauxel

Durchwahl:   +49 (0) 23 05 - 4 40 87 - 2
Fax.:   [phone] - 4 40 87 - 1
Web:     www.i-renner.de



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[Dan Babcock-3]

Matt, thanks so much for sharing your real world experiences.  These  
issues remind me of previous new releases of 4D.  We could save this  
list and just apply it to v12 as we'll probably be back here again.

Crashes and freezes in 24/7 production are definitely show stopping  
issues.  We don't have a full time IT staff person at each site so  
this kills v11 for us.  Now that 4D has killed 2004, there's no where  
to go with our 2003 app.  I'm not feeling the love.

Dan

On Jul 1, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Matt Houghton-Thompson wrote:

> Our experience running  v11.4 server with 200-220 concurrent users has
> been a mixed bag.

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[Peter Jakobsson-2]

On 1 Jul 2009, at 18:23, Dan Babcock wrote:
> there's no where to go with our 2003 app.  I'm not feeling the love



On the other hand, you might be only a point release away from  
"feeling that love".

11.4 was supposed to have fixed 100 bugs (/improvements) and Matt's  
post cited only 3 - so the holding of breath could be the order of  
the day.

I'm certainly holding mine. Maybe there's lots of rapid paddling  
underwater going on at 4D mission control.

Lets see how blue all our faces have gone when .5 comes out.

Peter

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[Steve Makohin]

Hello Dan,

From: "Dan Babcock" <4dnug2@...>

> Matt, thanks so much for sharing your real world experiences.  These
> issues remind me of previous new releases of 4D.  We could save this  list
> and just apply it to v12 as we'll probably be back here again.
>
> Crashes and freezes in 24/7 production are definitely show stopping
> issues.  We don't have a full time IT staff person at each site so  this
> kills v11 for us.  Now that 4D has killed 2004, there's no where  to go
> with our 2003 app.  I'm not feeling the love.

Another, equally true perspective, is that 4D 2004.8 is a mature product
whose remaining issues are well documented and well understood. This may be
a viable and easily adoptable interim solution for you until v11 has been
given more time to reach the level of maturity that you need to feel
comfortable.

Another equally valid perspective is although some people are having some
serious issues with v11, so far, they haven't affected us in a meaningful
way, just because our product is different than theirs. We are building a
system in 4D v11 that is about a year away from production. We know 4D folks
are fixing bugs on a priority basis (most critical first), as fast as they
can, so the 4D that we will use in 9 months will be much more robust than
the current one. In other words, today is today -- It is not for ever.

-Steve Makohin
 Water's Edge Software
 Oakville, Ontario, Canada

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[psmith-3]

Peter,

Let's hope your right.

Our experience leads me to believe that some/most of the problems may  
be due to 4D's attempt to make v11 much faster over the WAN or other  
slower connections. Connections are much faster... when they work.  
However, we get very unpredictable results, with methods failing to  
execute completely, some processes losing their connection while  
others continue to run, etc. We get messages that records are invalid,  
when in fact they are fine. 4D "client" just can't get them over the  
net.

Imagine the havoc that can wreak with code: try to find a record, if  
the not found, create it.... Ooops, in fact the record did exist, the  
Query simply failed or gave some false error message. In order to  
write bulletproof code, you'd have to check the variable Error at  
every line of code which accesses the database. Something like

If ((Records in selection([MyFile])=0)|(Error=-10502))
...

end if

I suspect that 4D are well aware of these connection problems. If the  
fix was easy, we'd have seen it already. I'm hoping for hotfix 3 to  
deal with this, since I have customers who are really suffering.

Paul Smith

TSE International

> On the other hand, you might be only a point release away from  
> "feeling that love".
>
> 11.4 was supposed to have fixed 100 bugs (/improvements) and Matt's  
> post cited only 3 - so the holding of breath could be the order of  
> the day.
>
> I'm certainly holding mine. Maybe there's lots of rapid paddling  
> underwater going on at 4D mission control.
>
> Lets see how blue all our faces have gone when .5 comes out.
>
> Peter

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[psmith-3]

Steve,

Your "equally true/valid perspectives"  are only valid if you're not  
trying to use v11 in the real world. However, the title of this thread  
is v11.4 real world experience. People want to know if it works now,  
not whether it may work in a year.

> Another, equally true perspective, is that 4D 2004.8 is a mature  
> product whose remaining issues are well documented and well  
> understood. This may be a viable and easily adoptable interim  
> solution for you until v11 has been given more time to reach the  
> level of maturity that you need to feel comfortable.

4D 2004 is in sunset phase now, so I wouldn't recommand that anyone  
actually upgrade to it from 4D2003 instead of waiting for v11. By the  
time you expect v11 to be stable, 2004 will be gone and v12 will be  
breathing down our throats.

> Another equally valid perspective is although some people are having  
> some serious issues with v11, so far, they haven't affected us in a  
> meaningful way, just because our product is different than theirs.  
> We are building a system in 4D v11 that is about a year away from  
> production. We know 4D folks are fixing bugs on a priority basis  
> (most critical first), as fast as they can, so the 4D that we will  
> use in 9 months will be much more robust than the current one. In  
> other words, today is today -- It is not for ever.


It's not so much that your product is different from ours. Simply,  
you're not trying to actually run it at customer sites and dealing  
with the problems. We developed and tested and everything looked fine.  
The only problems arose when our customers actually tried to use it in  
production. Other than that, no problem (;-///(

I would certainly hope for a stable version of v11 which could  
actually be put into production, running at least a year or two before  
2004 is killed and v12 comes along. Is it too much to ask, to have a  
product which actually works as advertised in the real world for a  
year or more without it being obsolete? We're coming up on two years  
since v11 was released. It's time it was stable, now. How many stable,  
real-world databases are actually running in production (not  
development and test) without major issues? There are probably many  
times more which are on the verge of going into production, "once v11  
is stable".


Paul Smith

TSE International

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[Mehboob Alam]

> 4D 2004 is in sunset phase now, so I wouldn't recommand that anyone actually upgrade to it from 4D2003 instead of waiting for v11. By the time you expect v11 to be stable, 2004 will be gone and v12 will be breathing down our throats.


I don't understand this part - v2004 is not suddenly going to stop working, is it. Is there a "kill-switch" built-in?

You can buy v2004 today and sit on it.
sincerely,
mehboob alam




Electricity is actually made up of extremely tiny particles called electrons, that you cannot see with the naked eye unless you have been drinking. - Dave Barry



----- Original Message ----
From: psmith <psmith@...>
To: Steve Makohin <SteveMakohin@...>; 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2009 1:16:34 PM
Subject: Re: v11.4 real word experience

Steve,

Your "equally true/valid perspectives"  are only valid if you're not trying to use v11 in the real world. However, the title of this thread is v11.4 real world experience. People want to know if it works now, not whether it may work in a year.

> Another, equally true perspective, is that 4D 2004.8 is a mature product whose remaining issues are well documented and well understood. This may be a viable and easily adoptable interim solution for you until v11 has been given more time to reach the level of maturity that you need to feel comfortable.

4D 2004 is in sunset phase now, so I wouldn't recommand that anyone actually upgrade to it from 4D2003 instead of waiting for v11. By the time you expect v11 to be stable, 2004 will be gone and v12 will be breathing down our throats.

> Another equally valid perspective is although some people are having some serious issues with v11, so far, they haven't affected us in a meaningful way, just because our product is different than theirs. We are building a system in 4D v11 that is about a year away from production. We know 4D folks are fixing bugs on a priority basis (most critical first), as fast as they can, so the 4D that we will use in 9 months will be much more robust than the current one. In other words, today is today -- It is not for ever.


It's not so much that your product is different from ours. Simply, you're not trying to actually run it at customer sites and dealing with the problems. We developed and tested and everything looked fine. The only problems arose when our customers actually tried to use it in production. Other than that, no problem (;-///(

I would certainly hope for a stable version of v11 which could actually be put into production, running at least a year or two before 2004 is killed and v12 comes along. Is it too much to ask, to have a product which actually works as advertised in the real world for a year or more without it being obsolete? We're coming up on two years since v11 was released. It's time it was stable, now. How many stable, real-world databases are actually running in production (not development and test) without major issues? There are probably many times more which are on the verge of going into production, "once v11 is stable".


Paul Smith

TSE International

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[George F. Huhn]

>mehboob alam wrote

> I don't understand this part - v2004 is not suddenly going to stop working, is
> it. Is there a "kill-switch" built-in?

No, but there might be one in Windows 7 or Snow Leopard.

That is the big concern, I think.

--
George F. Huhn, President
Data Machines, Inc.
Organize, prioritize, and optimize your decisions.
Visit us at http://www.DataMachines.com


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[Dan Babcock-3]

True enough if the client has the budget for two conversions.  The sad  
thing is they own licenses for 2004 but have not converted from 2003.  
I agree that 2004 is very stable now, we use it in our other apps.  
Conversion of a large cross platform 4D app is more expensive than the  
licenses so they're not going to go for it again in 6 months.

We typically skip 4D versions because we rarely need most of the new  
capabilities, conversion is expensive, and 4D licenses are also  
expensive.  v11 appeals to me because of SQL and speed promises.

None of this is a big surprise.  We have to spend budget dollars where  
we get the biggest bang.  My only gripe is the premature sunset of  
2004.  IMO, v11 is still Vista and 2004 is XP.

Dan

On Jul 1, 2009, at 11:58 AM, Steve Makohin wrote:

> Another, equally true perspective, is that 4D 2004.8 is a mature  
> product whose remaining issues are well documented and well  
> understood. This may be a viable and easily adoptable interim  
> solution for you until v11 has been given more time to reach the  
> level of maturity that you need to feel comfortable.

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[Dan Babcock-3]

I'm believing this.  However, don't sunset my 2004 until we complete  
the journey.

Dan

On Jul 1, 2009, at 11:52 AM, Peter Jakobsson wrote:

> On the other hand, you might be only a point release away from  
> "feeling that love".

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[Mehboob Alam]

Windows 7 has an XP Virtual mode.
Snow Leopard - not relevant in the marketplace.

In the end, the customer has to decide between their business-critical system, and a brand-new computer?
There is no kill-switch.. it may work, it may not work.

 sincerely,
mehboob alam




Electricity is actually made up of extremely tiny particles called electrons,
that you cannot see with the naked eye unless you have been drinking.
- Dave Barry



----- Original Message ----
From: George F. Huhn <GHuhn@...>
To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2009 2:58:26 PM
Subject: Re: v11.4 real word experience

>mehboob alam wrote

> I don't understand this part - v2004 is not suddenly going to stop working, is
> it. Is there a "kill-switch" built-in?

No, but there might be one in Windows 7 or Snow Leopard.

That is the big concern, I think.

--
George F. Huhn, President
Data Machines, Inc.
Organize, prioritize, and optimize your decisions.
Visit us at http://www.DataMachines.com


     
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[Dan Babcock-3]

I'm assuming you mean at the present time.  It sure will be in a few  
months but, of course, v11 will be powering the space shuttle by then.

Dan

On Jul 1, 2009, at 3:45 PM, Mehboob Alam wrote:

> Snow Leopard - not relevant in the marketplace.

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[Larry White-3]

It depends on the product and the marketplace.  With a $29 upgrade I suspect
there are going to be many many early adopters.  This is a big problem with
a 2004 based solution.

Cheers,
--
Larry White, P.Eng.
President & Chief Engineer
>Pelican Engineering, Inc.
>>ISO 9001:2000 registered
lwhite@...
www.pelicaneng.ca



On 7/1/09 5:45 PM, "Mehboob Alam" <media4d@...> wrote:

> Snow Leopard - not relevant in the marketplace.


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[Tom Dillon-2]

Mehboob Alam sez:

>Snow Leopard - not relevant in the marketplace.

Shhh... Not so loud, my clients might hear you!

I do still have a fair number of clients running Macs. One makes sure
the oldest Macs are no more than two years old.

I'm sure that 4D has been testing 2004.8 on Snow Leopard beta. Hmmm...
As soon as I typed that I realized that this could be the reason there
will be no more updates. :-7

BTW, I'm running 4D 11.4 over the internet as a client (XP) to a
development server (XP) and find the "Cannot send request" error occur
only when I don't want them to. <g>  I get the error mostly when closing
modified methods and in response to Records in Table after a process has
been running a while.

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[David Nasralla]

> Snow Leopard - not relevant in the marketplace.

Maybe not in your world.... Our president and key managers loooove
their Macs. And if the 2004 system doesn't work when they buy a new
machine for a new employee (or when I try an explain they have to buy
the "new" machine on Ebay because new macs won't work with anything
else but Snow Leopard), or when they upgrade themselves,  they'll look
at me and say "Fix it."

d

--
David Nasralla
Clean Air Engineering
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