Moving towards a proposed vote

[JAMES Nightly Build System]

I see:

        Angela
        Roland
        Luciano

who appear to want to be Committers.  Anyone else whom I've missed, so far?

I'm prepared to act as a Mentor.  Martin (Cooper), are you interested and
willing?  Niclas?  David (Crossley)?

Anyone else?

Where do we stand on the proposal?  Is it considered ready, or do people
want to do some further revisions?  What about making approaches to some of
the projects?

It seems to me that the initial phases include of:

  - Content Repository
    - Use cases - capture ideas such as access control that might not make
first drop
    - Layout
    - Unit tests (simple drivers for loading, accessing, searching, etc.)

  - ReST structure
    - Use cases
    - URI format
    - semantics
    - prototype implementation

  - WS-*
    - Use cases - want to capture ideas for process (Ode) integration
    - WSDL Description
    - prototype

Each is separable, but I'd do them in roughly the above order unless someone
has a particular itch to scratch.

Thoughts?

        --- Noel



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[Angela Cymbalak]

Noel,

Isn't it required that we need a Champion?

I added your list to the proposal as our Initial Goals.  I think it
is well outlined.

Then finally, the name...

suggestions were:
Phos Librarius
LibraLux
PhosBiblioteka
BiblioPic
PicAndMix
PhoGal
PhoGa
Foga
SnapLib
SnapStore
PicStore
SnapShow
PicShow
PicLib

I like LibraLux and PicAndMix if I can vote for two. :-)

Also, Carsten said he would eventually have a Sling codebase that we
could draw from.  I haven't followed up yet to see if it has made it
to the Sling svn.

Angie

At 02:28 PM 7/14/2008, Noel J. Bergman wrote:

>I see:
>
>         Angela
>         Roland
>         Luciano
>
>who appear to want to be Committers.  Anyone else whom I've missed, so far?
>
>I'm prepared to act as a Mentor.  Martin (Cooper), are you interested and
>willing?  Niclas?  David (Crossley)?
>
>Anyone else?
>
>Where do we stand on the proposal?  Is it considered ready, or do people
>want to do some further revisions?  What about making approaches to some of
>the projects?
>
>It seems to me that the initial phases include of:
>
>   - Content Repository
>     - Use cases - capture ideas such as access control that might not make
>first drop
>     - Layout
>     - Unit tests (simple drivers for loading, accessing, searching, etc.)
>
>   - ReST structure
>     - Use cases
>     - URI format
>     - semantics
>     - prototype implementation
>
>   - WS-*
>     - Use cases - want to capture ideas for process (Ode) integration
>     - WSDL Description
>     - prototype
>
>Each is separable, but I'd do them in roughly the above order unless someone
>has a particular itch to scratch.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>         --- Noel
>
>
>
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[JAMES Nightly Build System]

> Isn't it required that we need a Champion?

<<shrug>> Put me down.  I'm kind of doing that part until the project gets
started.

> finally, the name...

Have you done any searches for existing use?  For example, I liked the name
PicStore, but there are existing uses
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=picstore).  Likewise,
PicAndMix: http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=11082525.

> I like LibraLux and PicAndMix if I can vote for two. :-)

I could go with LibraLux, I suppose.

> Carsten said he would eventually have a Sling codebase that we
> could draw from.  I haven't followed up yet to see if it has made it
> to the Sling svn.

E-mail him to get involved.  :-)

        --- Noel



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[cziegeler]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:

>> Isn't it required that we need a Champion?
>
> <<shrug>> Put me down.  I'm kind of doing that part until the project gets
> started.
>
>> finally, the name...
>
> Have you done any searches for existing use?  For example, I liked the name
> PicStore, but there are existing uses
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=picstore).  Likewise,
> PicAndMix: http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=11082525.
>
>> I like LibraLux and PicAndMix if I can vote for two. :-)
>
> I could go with LibraLux, I suppose.
>
>> Carsten said he would eventually have a Sling codebase that we
>> could draw from.  I haven't followed up yet to see if it has made it
>> to the Sling svn.
>
> E-mail him to get involved.  :-)
>

I'm subscribed and follow this :)

No, the code is not finished yet - and as it is very basic, don't wait
for it.
If you still need a mentor, you can add me to the list.

Carsten

--
Carsten Ziegeler
cziegeler@...

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[Roland Weber]

Hi Noel,

Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> I see:
>
> Angela
> Roland
> Luciano
>
> who appear to want to be Committers.

Nope, I don't strive to be a committer. I intend to stay
involved in a strictly non-coding role: architectural
discussions, Apache processes, maybe some documentation
over time. I'm currently on vacation and can allocate
some more time to get started, but I'll have to cut back
again in a few weeks.
I was considering to champion this proposal, but I'm
glad you've stepped up for that role :-) However, I'd
still like to get a clearer picture of where we stand
and how we intend to go forward.


> Where do we stand on the proposal?  Is it considered ready, or do people
> want to do some further revisions?

The proposal mentions three codebases, and I remember
those popping up during the discussion on general@.
It should explicitly list which these three codebases
are, and on what technologies they are based. This is
to highlight the different options that have been
considered in the past, and what we can draw from.

I suggest to divide the information in the proposal
more cleanly into the proposal itself (what will the
project provide), the current status (which codebases
to draw from), and the high-level design part
(open questions). I'm not sure whether the latter
should go into the proposal at all. If it does,
I'd like it to be a bit clearer than currently.
For example, Sling has been mentioned. Unless I am
confusing things, Sling is a framework based on JCR.
So a Sling front-end would access the repository
directly and not through via the proposed web service?

Formally, the proposal contains many "I" referring
to Angie. Is it still Angie's proposal to bring the
Caitrin codebase to Apache and use it as the starting
point for development? Or is it the proposal of the
small community that is beginning to form here and
that starts from scratch with a high-level design?
If the latter, the wording should be changed to
reflect that. I'd also like to see more than just
Angie's name in the "Initial Committers" section.
Frankly, I don't think that a single committer can
reasonably pull this off when starting from scratch.
The advantage of starting from a codebase is that
you can tell people to download and play with it.

I'll try to answer some of the questions I raised
above, and would like to update the proposal in the
coming days.

cheers,
   Roland


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[Roland Weber]

Angela Cymbalak wrote:
>
> Then finally, the name...
>
I had thought about "Piccadilly", but there's a
gaming software company with that name [1]. Still,
"Apache Piccadilly" might be distinct enough.
Or twist it into "Piccagalley"? *ouch*

cheers,
   Roland

[1]
http://www.yell.com/listings/DoFindListings/3926241/Piccadilly-Software-Ltd/Computer-Software-Development



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[Roland Weber]

Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
> If you still need a mentor, you can add me to the list.
>
Done - thanks!

http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CaitrinProposal#head-78263e2114f9b2dd2ca502fe911edc231dc1dce6

cheers,
   Roland


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[Angela Cymbalak]

Roland - What about being a Mentor?  We still need 2. :-)  You appear
to be doing a lot of mentoring at the moment.

Noel - Are you allowed to be both a Champion and a Mentor?

I will update the proposal sometime today with Roland's other
suggestions.  I do need to take out all the I's because a small
community has formed.

And I think I have to change my name vote to PicaGalley,
seriously.  Its fun and memorable.  I can still go with LibraLux, as
Noel said.  Anyone else want to chime in on the name?

Committers -
    Angela
    Noel
    Luciano
    Carston (???-because of his Sling code that we aren't waiting for
but might be useful)
    Martin (???-flex front end [1])

Thanks everyone for your suggestions!

Angie

[1] -
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/200806.mbox/%3c16d6c6200806262233v16d1e4e9g903d004c8f2e04f5@...%3e


At 07:44 AM 7/15/2008, Roland Weber wrote:

>Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
>>If you still need a mentor, you can add me to the list.
>Done - thanks!
>
>http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CaitrinProposal#head-78263e2114f9b2dd2ca502fe911edc231dc1dce6
>
>cheers,
>   Roland
>
>
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[Roland Weber]

Angela Cymbalak wrote:
> Roland - What about being a Mentor?

I'll consider it. It's the first time I'm engaging in
a podling, so I would prefer not to start as a mentor.
On the other hand, I'm used to get training on the job.


Regarding the proposal, I have made some updates.
But I'm still not happy with the sections on
"Initial Goals"/"High Level Design" and "Relationships
with Other Apache Products". This has to do with all
the open design questions in the proposal. It is important
to document such questions and the decisions, but that
does not belong into the proposal. The proposal should
give the Incubator folks the information needed to
decide whether the project should become a podling.
It should not bury them with irrelevant technical
detail. My suggestion is as follows:

1. Drop all the questions. Instead, describe the
    preliminary high-level design that seems to be
    the current consensus:

    * JCR/Jackrabbit backend
    * Web service interface
    * Sling frontend (not using the WS interface)

2. Define a roadmap for the "Inital Goals" section:

    * define a repository layout
    * create a prototype based on the Tuscany SCA sample
      by replacing the filesystem backend with the
      newly defined JCR backend
    * Sling frontend to follow later

3. Update the "Relationships" section:

    * Jackrabbit for the backend
    * Tuscany SCA for the WS interface
    * Sanselan for metadata extraction
    * Sling for the frontend
    * maybe JSecurity for authorization

    Apache Tomcat, Apache Directory Server or Apache Derby
    (if we need a relational DB) are just implementations
    of standard APIs. We can mention them, but should
    indicate that they are replaceable middleware components.
    Though to me, that would create the impression that we
    are trying to artificially inflate our relationships.

The reason why I'm not jumping ahead with this is
that I am not sure yet whether my understanding of
the high level design is the current consensus.


> Committers -
>    Angela
>    Noel
>    Luciano
>    Carston (???-because of his Sling code that we aren't waiting for but
> might be useful)
>    Martin (???-flex front end [1])

Initial committers should list themselves. It's not good
to put people on the list that later don't invest time.
Carsten probably intends to contribute his code to Sling
(that's what I assumed when editing the proposal). We
could take it from there. Or, if he contributes it to
the new project, he can be voted in as a committer when
the time comes.

cheers,
   Roland


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[JAMES Nightly Build System]

> Are you allowed to be both a Champion and a Mentor?

Champion role really ends when Incubation starts, so ...

> And I think I have to change my name vote to PicaGalley

I'm easy, as long as it is "fun and memorable" and somewhat reflective of
what the project is (as opposed to some other projects I could mention).

        --- Noel



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[Angela Cymbalak]

So... is that a yes?  Are you going to list yourself as an initial
committer as well? :-)

If that is a yes, then we only need one more mentor.

Angie

At 02:20 PM 7/17/2008, Noel J. Bergman wrote:

> > Are you allowed to be both a Champion and a Mentor?
>
>Champion role really ends when Incubation starts, so ...
>
> > And I think I have to change my name vote to PicaGalley
>
>I'm easy, as long as it is "fun and memorable" and somewhat reflective of
>what the project is (as opposed to some other projects I could mention).
>
>         --- Noel
>
>
>
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[Martin Cooper-2]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Angela Cymbalak <a.cymbalak@...>
wrote:

> So... is that a yes?  Are you going to list yourself as an initial
> committer as well? :-)
>
> If that is a yes, then we only need one more mentor.


You can count me in as a mentor.

I'd be happy to be a committer as well, but right now I'm not sure whether
time available will match desire to participate...

--
Martin Cooper

>
> Angie
>
>
> At 02:20 PM 7/17/2008, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> > Are you allowed to be both a Champion and a Mentor?
>>
>> Champion role really ends when Incubation starts, so ...
>>
>> > And I think I have to change my name vote to PicaGalley
>>
>> I'm easy, as long as it is "fun and memorable" and somewhat reflective of
>> what the project is (as opposed to some other projects I could mention).
>>
>>        --- Noel
>>
>>
>>
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[Roland Weber]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> Champion role really ends when Incubation starts, so ...

Interesting. The policy [1] says:

<quote>
  Champion
  A Member of the Apache Software Foundation who supports
  a Candidate's application for Incubation and who supports
  and assists the Podling through the Incubation process.
</quote>

I would have thought that the Incubation process ends
with graduation or termination. The relevant guide [2] says:

<quote>
it is expected that they will play an active role.
A lack of interest on the part of a Champion may be
seen by the Incubator PMC as a negative indicator
during the course of incubation.
</quote>

Here, "course of incubation" also seems to suggest
the lifetime of the project as a podling.

cheers,
   Roland

[1] http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Champion
[2]
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Champion


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[Roland Weber]

Martin Cooper wrote:
>
> You can count me in as a mentor.

Thanks! I've added you and myself to the list,
so we have three mentors.

cheers,
   Roland

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[Angela Cymbalak]

Thanks, Martin and Roland!

We have all the mentors now.  There are still only Luciano and I
listed as initial committers which may be scary for some who are
voting on the proposal but if they read the archives of this list
they will see that several more are interested just hesitant on time right now.

I haven't seen anything else on the name of the project except from
Noel saying he could go with PicaGalley.  In the interest of not
polluting the  wiki, I'll leave the page name for the moment in case
someone strongly objects to PicaGalley.

Otherwise, I think that we have satisfied all the concerns that were
brought to the list and we can call for a vote.

Angie
At 03:20 PM 7/17/2008, Martin Cooper wrote:

>On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Angela Cymbalak
><<mailto:a.cymbalak@...>a.cymbalak@...> wrote:
>So... is that a yes?  Are you going to list yourself as an initial
>committer as well? :-)
>
>If that is a yes, then we only need one more mentor.
>
>
>You can count me in as a mentor.
>
>I'd be happy to be a committer as well, but right now I'm not sure
>whether time available will match desire to participate...
>
>--
>Martin Cooper
>
>
>
>Angie
>
>
>At 02:20 PM 7/17/2008, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Are you allowed to be both a Champion and a Mentor?
>
>Champion role really ends when Incubation starts, so ...
>
> > And I think I have to change my name vote to PicaGalley
>
>I'm easy, as long as it is "fun and memorable" and somewhat reflective of
>what the project is (as opposed to some other projects I could mention).
>
>        --- Noel
>
>
>
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[Roland Weber]

Hi Angie,

> I haven't seen anything else on the name of the project except from Noel
> saying he could go with PicaGalley.  In the interest of not polluting
> the  wiki, I'll leave the page name for the moment in case someone
> strongly objects to PicaGalley.

If somebody strongly objected, I guess we'd have heard of them
by now. But I see nothing wrong with keeping the wiki page name.
Since you seem to prefer the camelcase name PicaGalley over
Picagalley, you should use that capitalization in the wiki too.
We can either ignore the stale links that the wiki generates,
or you can prefix the name with an exclamation mark to tell
the wiki that !PicaGalley is not a wiki page name.

> Otherwise, I think that we have satisfied all the concerns that were
> brought to the list and we can call for a vote.

I agree. I'm not sure who should call for the vote.
You, the champion, one of the mentors, or don't care?

cheers,
   Roland


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[Angela Cymbalak]

OK the Policy says we need to take a vote to see if we want to be a
part of the incubator.. :-)

After that it doesn't explicitly say, but it reads as though the
Champion is supposed to call for the vote:

  - be nominated for incubation by a member of the Apache Software
Foundation
(<http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Champion>"The
Champion");  [1]

However, first we have to post the proposal to the general@ list for
discussion [2] so I will do that now.

Angie

[1]
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Entry+to+Incubation
[2] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#presentation
At 09:04 AM 7/20/2008, Roland Weber wrote:

>Hi Angie,
>
>>I haven't seen anything else on the name of the project except from
>>Noel saying he could go with PicaGalley.  In the interest of not
>>polluting the  wiki, I'll leave the page name for the moment in
>>case someone strongly objects to PicaGalley.
>
>If somebody strongly objected, I guess we'd have heard of them
>by now. But I see nothing wrong with keeping the wiki page name.
>Since you seem to prefer the camelcase name PicaGalley over
>Picagalley, you should use that capitalization in the wiki too.
>We can either ignore the stale links that the wiki generates,
>or you can prefix the name with an exclamation mark to tell
>the wiki that !PicaGalley is not a wiki page name.
>
>>Otherwise, I think that we have satisfied all the concerns that
>>were brought to the list and we can call for a vote.
>
>I agree. I'm not sure who should call for the vote.
>You, the champion, one of the mentors, or don't care?
>
>cheers,
>   Roland
>
>
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[Roland Weber]

Alright, PicaGalley won't pass for a name.
Too close to "Picasa". The one I thought of
later was "Pigalle", though that has some
possibly unwanted connotations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigalle

or we switch back to "LibraLux"...

cheers,
   Roland

> suggestions were:
> Phos Librarius
> LibraLux
> PhosBiblioteka
> BiblioPic
> PicAndMix
> PhoGal
> PhoGa
> Foga
> SnapLib
> SnapStore
> PicStore
> SnapShow
> PicShow
> PicLib
>
> I like LibraLux and PicAndMix if I can vote for two. :-)

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[Angela Cymbalak]

Should this go to legal discuss to see what the lawyers say?  It
seems there are a few who are unsure about the name but others who
don't see a similarity.  Plus, as Craig mentioned, Pica is a very
normal word to use in the line of photo galleries.

Angie

At 12:11 PM 8/5/2008, Roland Weber wrote:

>Alright, PicaGalley won't pass for a name.
>Too close to "Picasa". The one I thought of
>later was "Pigalle", though that has some
>possibly unwanted connotations:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigalle
>
>or we switch back to "LibraLux"...
>
>cheers,
>   Roland
>
>>suggestions were:
>>Phos Librarius
>>LibraLux
>>PhosBiblioteka
>>BiblioPic
>>PicAndMix
>>PhoGal
>>PhoGa
>>Foga
>>SnapLib
>>SnapStore
>>PicStore
>>SnapShow
>>PicShow
>>PicLib
>>I like LibraLux and PicAndMix if I can vote for two. :-)
>
>
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[Roland Weber]

Hi Angie,

> Should this go to legal discuss to see what the lawyers say?

The lawyers rarely post on legal-discuss. The list is
mostly populated by regular non-lawyer people with an
interest in the legal minefield, like myself. It's not
a place to discuss (non)similarity of names, and I'm
pretty sure that no lawyer would enter the discussion.

> It seems
> there are a few who are unsure about the name but others who don't see a
> similarity.  Plus, as Craig mentioned, Pica is a very normal word to use
> in the line of photo galleries.

Well, the options I see are:

A. enter incubation as PicaGalley and...
A1. try to keep the name and hope that nobody objects
     on graduation
A2. seek a statement from Google that they don't
     object to our usage of the name
A3. change the name later before graduation
or
B. settle on a new name that doesn't raise any concerns

If you're _really_ attached to PicaGalley, you could
go for A2. But I doubt that you'll get that kind of
statement from Google. A1 is a poor strategy, and
graduation might even be delayed not because of the
name, but because we didn't address the concerns, at
the time when they were raised, in "The Apache Way".
That is by seeking the broadest possible consensus.

It's not like we have an existing OSS project with
many users that would have to learn a new name.
We're starting from scratch, and the preliminary
name has only been used for three weeks internally.
(as "internal" as discussions on public mailing
lists can be :-) So my recommendation clearly is B.


Additional suggestions on general@ by Martijn were
"Snapshot" and "Shutter". Unfortunately, I don't
know a catchy translation for the german word
"Schuhkarton" (shoe box), which in reality is a
much more common place than an album for keeping
physical photographies :-)

cheers,
   Roland

>> Pigalle
>>> Phos Librarius
>>> LibraLux
>>> PhosBiblioteka
>>> BiblioPic
>>> PicAndMix
>>> PhoGal
>>> PhoGa
>>> Foga
>>> SnapLib
>>> SnapStore
>>> PicStore
>>> SnapShow
>>> PicShow
>>> PicLib

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