Multiple currency setup and unbalanced general ledger transactions

[Nigel Titley]

My accounts are mostly done in GBP but I have recently set up a EUR
account so that my European customers can be invoiced and pay in Euros.
The invoicing works fine but I've just received the first payment in
Euros. I set up a new account in LedgerSMB but can't find any means of
specifying its currency.

When I tried to apply the payments (from invoices in Euros) to the Euro
account, it wanted an exchange rate, so I told it to use "1". Now my
trial balance is out of balance and it seems to have entered unbalanced
transactions in the General ledger.

I have four questions:

1. How should I have set up the Euro account?
2. How do I make payments into it?
3. How did LSMB manage to generate unbalanced transactions
4. What do I do to recover from this?

Any help would be very gratefully received.

Nigel

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[Nigel Titley]

Folks,

If anybody has any idea of what I can do to fix these unbalanced
transactions and also why they should have been entered. How do I report
bugs in LedgerSMB?

Thanks again.

Nigel

Nigel Titley wrote:

> My accounts are mostly done in GBP but I have recently set up a EUR
> account so that my European customers can be invoiced and pay in Euros.
> The invoicing works fine but I've just received the first payment in
> Euros. I set up a new account in LedgerSMB but can't find any means of
> specifying its currency.
>
> When I tried to apply the payments (from invoices in Euros) to the Euro
> account, it wanted an exchange rate, so I told it to use "1". Now my
> trial balance is out of balance and it seems to have entered unbalanced
> transactions in the General ledger.
>
> I have four questions:
>
> 1. How should I have set up the Euro account?
> 2. How do I make payments into it?
> 3. How did LSMB manage to generate unbalanced transactions
> 4. What do I do to recover from this?
>
> Any help would be very gratefully received.
>
> Nigel

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[Pete Houston]

Hello Nigel,

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 12:04:47AM +0100, Nigel Titley wrote:
[snip]
> Nigel Titley wrote:
> > My accounts are mostly done in GBP but I have recently set up a EUR
> > account so that my European customers can be invoiced and pay in Euros.
> > The invoicing works fine but I've just received the first payment in
> > Euros. I set up a new account in LedgerSMB but can't find any means of
> > specifying its currency.

The accounts in LSMB are all set up using your default currency (GBP in
this case). So, even if you set up an account which is reported by your
bank as being in Euros, LSMB will store the sterling equivalent in that
account. It's a bit fiddly, but there you go. The advantage here is that
you can make GL payments between the accounts in terms of sterling very
easily.

> > When I tried to apply the payments (from invoices in Euros) to the Euro
> > account, it wanted an exchange rate, so I told it to use "1".

You should raise the invoice in euros - this will ask you for the
current exchange rate. Note that this is how many GBP 1 EUR will
purchase (not the other way around). On today's rates this is about
0.93.

Then when you apply the payment of the invoice (via Cash->Receipt) the
currency should be set to EUR and the exchange rate on the day of
payment should be given.

This is the procedure which I follow (rightly or wrongly!) and it seems to
work most of the time with the exception of a couple of rounding oddities
(which do not seem to affect the accounts, just some presentation).

> > Now my
> > trial balance is out of balance and it seems to have entered unbalanced
> > transactions in the General ledger.
> >
> > I have four questions:
> >
> > 1. How should I have set up the Euro account?
> > 2. How do I make payments into it?

See above.

> > 3. How did LSMB manage to generate unbalanced transactions

No idea, sorry.

> > 4. What do I do to recover from this?

Restore from the backup you took before the invoice was raised.

Note that this applies to 1.2.18 - I do not know if 1.3 will be
different.

Also, this is only my method of dealing with this and if there are
better ways (I would be surprised if not) then it would be good to hear
about them.

Good luck,

Pete
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[Stroller]

On 14 Oct 2009, at 09:48, Pete Houston wrote:

> ...
> You should raise the invoice in euros - this will ask you for the
> current exchange rate. Note that this is how many GBP 1 EUR will
> purchase (not the other way around). On today's rates this is about
> 0.93.
>
> Then when you apply the payment of the invoice (via Cash->Receipt) the
> currency should be set to EUR and the exchange rate on the day of
> payment should be given.
>
> This is the procedure which I follow (rightly or wrongly!) and it  
> seems to
> work most of the time with the exception of a couple of rounding  
> oddities
> (which do not seem to affect the accounts, just some presentation).

Doesn't this mean that the customer can pay the invoice in the full  
number of Euros, but LedgerSMB shows the invoice as not fully paid (or  
overpaid) because the exchange rate has changed?

Stroller.

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[Michael Richardson-5]

>>>>> "stroller" == stroller  <stroller@...> writes:
    >> You should raise the invoice in euros - this will ask you for the
    >> current exchange rate. Note that this is how many GBP 1 EUR will
    >> purchase (not the other way around). On today's rates this is about
    >> 0.93.
    >>
    >> Then when you apply the payment of the invoice (via Cash->Receipt) the
    >> currency should be set to EUR and the exchange rate on the day of
    >> payment should be given.
    >>
    >> This is the procedure which I follow (rightly or wrongly!) and it  
    >> seems to
    >> work most of the time with the exception of a couple of rounding  
    >> oddities
    >> (which do not seem to affect the accounts, just some presentation).

    stroller> Doesn't this mean that the customer can pay the invoice in
    stroller> the full number of Euros, but LedgerSMB shows the invoice
    stroller> as not fully paid (or overpaid) because the exchange rate
    stroller> has changed?

  Normally not (%)
  If you receive the amount in EUR, you enter the current exchange rate.
The transaction occurs in EUR, and there is a second transaction that is
entered against the Foreign Currency Gain/Loss expense account.

  You need a EUR currency Checking Account to do this though (or at
least, I seem to recall this made life easier later on)

  hint: when reconciling the foreign currency checking account, do not
check the box about foreign exchange rates.

(%) occasionally, I've seen things be off by 0.01 units, and not get closed.

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[Nigel Titley]

Michael Richardson wrote:

>     >> You should raise the invoice in euros - this will ask you for the
>     >> current exchange rate. Note that this is how many GBP 1 EUR will
>     >> purchase (not the other way around). On today's rates this is about
>     >> 0.93.
>     >>
>     >> Then when you apply the payment of the invoice (via Cash->Receipt) the
>     >> currency should be set to EUR and the exchange rate on the day of
>     >> payment should be given.
>     >>
>     >> This is the procedure which I follow (rightly or wrongly!) and it  
>     >> seems to
>     >> work most of the time with the exception of a couple of rounding  
>     >> oddities
>     >> (which do not seem to affect the accounts, just some presentation).
>
>     stroller> Doesn't this mean that the customer can pay the invoice in
>     stroller> the full number of Euros, but LedgerSMB shows the invoice
>     stroller> as not fully paid (or overpaid) because the exchange rate
>     stroller> has changed?
>
>   Normally not (%)
>   If you receive the amount in EUR, you enter the current exchange rate.
> The transaction occurs in EUR, and there is a second transaction that is
> entered against the Foreign Currency Gain/Loss expense account.
>
>   You need a EUR currency Checking Account to do this though (or at
> least, I seem to recall this made life easier later on)
>
>   hint: when reconciling the foreign currency checking account, do not
> check the box about foreign exchange rates.
>
> (%) occasionally, I've seen things be off by 0.01 units, and not get closed

All of this is very helpful for the future, although I must admit to
being slightly annoyed that I can't properly track things in my Euro
checking account (even gnucash lets me do that), but it leaves two
questions unanswered:

1. Why did I get an unbalanced transaction entered in the first place (I
think this is a bug). Remember, all I did was enter a receipt in the
normal way.
2. How can I fix it? (the suggestion about rolling back to the back up
isn't really practical)

To fix it can I enter a reversing unbalanced transaction? Or must I go
into the database and pull out the transaction by the roots?

Nigel


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[Michael Richardson-5]

>>>>> "Nigel" == Nigel Titley <nigel@...> writes:
    Nigel> All of this is very helpful for the future, although I must
    Nigel> admit to being slightly annoyed that I can't properly track
    Nigel> things in my Euro checking account (even gnucash lets me do
    Nigel> that), but it leaves two questions unanswered:

  I have no such problems.

    Nigel> 1. Why did I get an unbalanced transaction entered in the
    Nigel> first place (I think this is a bug). Remember, all I did was
    Nigel> enter a receipt in the normal way.  2. How can I fix it? (the
    Nigel> suggestion about rolling back to the back up isn't really
    Nigel> practical)

  Send screen shots or details.
  I don't fully understand the problem, I think.

    Nigel> To fix it can I enter a reversing unbalanced transaction? Or
    Nigel> must I go into the database and pull out the transaction by
    Nigel> the roots?

  You will likely have to enter a transaction against your
foreign-exchange gain/loss expense account.

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[Nigel Titley]

Michael Richardson wrote:
>
>     Nigel> All of this is very helpful for the future, although I must
>     Nigel> admit to being slightly annoyed that I can't properly track
>     Nigel> things in my Euro checking account (even gnucash lets me do
>     Nigel> that), but it leaves two questions unanswered:
>
>   I have no such problems.
>  
The problem is that LSMB does not allow you to create accounts in
currencies other than your base currency (see my original description
for the the full details, but basically I do almost everything in GBP,
but have a EUR account for taking payments from customers who wish to
pay in Euros).
>     Nigel> 1. Why did I get an unbalanced transaction entered in the
>     Nigel> first place (I think this is a bug). Remember, all I did was
>     Nigel> enter a receipt in the normal way.  2. How can I fix it? (the
>     Nigel> suggestion about rolling back to the back up isn't really
>     Nigel> practical)
>
>   Send screen shots or details.
>   I don't fully understand the problem, I think.
>  
OK. The sequence is:

1. Customer wishes to be invoiced in Euros, so I set the currency type
on the invoice to be EUR and post it. No problems here. I've done this
many times in the past.
2. Customer pays me by direct bank transfer into the Euro checking account
3. I go to Cash -> Receipts, and set the receiving account to be the
Euro account, set the exchange rate to be 1 and post the payment.
4. All initially seems to be fine, the invoice(s) seem to be paid, but
when I run a trial balance, the books no longer balance and I now have
unbalanced transactions relating to this payment
>     Nigel> To fix it can I enter a reversing unbalanced transaction? Or
>     Nigel> must I go into the database and pull out the transaction by
>     Nigel> the roots?
>
>   You will likely have to enter a transaction against your
> foreign-exchange gain/loss expense account.
>  
But it is no good entering a balanced transaction to try and fix an
unbalanced one!
LSMB has created an unbalanced transaction in response to a perfectly
valid operation. This is a bug, in my view, and I have to 1) recover
from it 2) make sure I can work around it in the future.

Nigel

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[Michael Richardson-5]

>>>>> "Nigel" == Nigel Titley <nigel@...> writes:
    Nigel> All of this is very helpful for the future, although I must
    Nigel> admit to being slightly annoyed that I can't properly track
    Nigel> things in my Euro checking account (even gnucash lets me do
    Nigel> that), but it leaves two questions unanswered:

    >> I have no such problems.

    Nigel> The problem is that LSMB does not allow you to create
    Nigel> accounts in currencies other than your base currency (see my
    Nigel> original description for the the full details, but basically

  Well, that's not entirely true.
  You can create accounts in other currency, but since it all has to be
reconciled, it has to convert back to your origin currency at some point
so that you can compare apples and apples.

  I've read the rest of your scenario, and let me mock in up.

  I've done exactly what you want to do.  I think that I did not enter
"1" as the exchange rate though. I know that this does not make sense
--- you are putting EU into EU account, but really, it's being converted
to GBP on that date for the purposes of your income statement.
  But, let me do some screenshots of what I've done in the past, to confirm.

  I agree that the interface is a little bit cryptic, though.

  (My current business does not have multiple currencies, but my
previous one had three.. CDN, USD and EUR)



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[Luke-74]

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Nigel Titley wrote:

> The problem is that LSMB does not allow you to create accounts in
> currencies other than your base currency (see my original description
> for the the full details, but basically I do almost everything in GBP,
> but have a EUR account for taking payments from customers who wish to
> pay in Euros).

I've followed this, but not as closely as I probably should have.

So, forgive the question if it is insulting, but do you understand the
difference between "bank" accounts and "book" accounts?

Accounts in ledgersmb are denominated in numbers, not currencies.  
Currency is an effect imposed by the transaction, and will determine how
certain numbers are processed into FX gain/loss accounts.
Real "checking" and other kind of banking accounts may require special
treatment.  Last time I used SQL-Ledger, it was offering bank accounts as
a separate item, but that software has gone in a bad direction, so I have
stopped following it.

LedgerSMB does not currently treat accounts storing actual money in any
different way than ledger accounts which are effectively line items.  
Whether that kind of thing is coming in 1.3 I don't know, but it probably
should be.

It might be useful to have a trigger of some kind that states, in effect
"when ever money moves out of X account into another, apply an FX
transaction", but I'm not sure how feasible that is.

Than again, it could be that I misunderstand all of this, in which case
hopefully Chris or someone will tell you to ignore me completely.

Luke

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[Nigel Titley]

Luke wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Nigel Titley wrote:
>
>  
>> The problem is that LSMB does not allow you to create accounts in
>> currencies other than your base currency (see my original description
>> for the the full details, but basically I do almost everything in GBP,
>> but have a EUR account for taking payments from customers who wish to
>> pay in Euros).
>>    
>
> I've followed this, but not as closely as I probably should have.
>
> So, forgive the question if it is insulting, but do you understand the
> difference between "bank" accounts and "book" accounts?
>  

No insult taken. I think I do, but I'm *not* an accountant and this may
be at the root of the problem.
> Accounts in ledgersmb are denominated in numbers, not currencies.  
> Currency is an effect imposed by the transaction, and will determine how
> certain numbers are processed into FX gain/loss accounts.
>  
Understood
> Real "checking" and other kind of banking accounts may require special
> treatment.  Last time I used SQL-Ledger, it was offering bank accounts as
> a separate item, but that software has gone in a bad direction, so I have
> stopped following it.
>  
Same for me
> LedgerSMB does not currently treat accounts storing actual money in any
> different way than ledger accounts which are effectively line items.  
> Whether that kind of thing is coming in 1.3 I don't know, but it probably
> should be.
>
> It might be useful to have a trigger of some kind that states, in effect
> "when ever money moves out of X account into another, apply an FX
> transaction", but I'm not sure how feasible that is.
>  
Yes, this is effectively what gnucash does, and I'm used to this.
> Than again, it could be that I misunderstand all of this, in which case
> hopefully Chris or someone will tell you to ignore me completely.
>  
I suspect you are right and you are understanding it perfectly.

However, let me re-state my immediate problem:

1. I have unbalanced transactions which I want to get rid of... how do I
do it?

Once I'm over that hurdle, I can work around the rest of it myself. I
don't think LedgerSMB should have created them, but that's an issue for
the developers.

Nigel

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[Nigel Titley]

Michael Richardson wrote:
>
>   Well, that's not entirely true.
>   You can create accounts in other currency, but since it all has to be
> reconciled, it has to convert back to your origin currency at some point
> so that you can compare apples and apples.
>
>   I've read the rest of your scenario, and let me mock in up.
>  
That would be extremely helpful.
>   I've done exactly what you want to do.  I think that I did not enter
> "1" as the exchange rate though. I know that this does not make sense
> --- you are putting EU into EU account, but really, it's being converted
> to GBP on that date for the purposes of your income statement.
>   But, let me do some screenshots of what I've done in the past, to confirm.
>
>  
Thanks.
>   I agree that the interface is a little bit cryptic, though.
>
>   (My current business does not have multiple currencies, but my
> previous one had three.. CDN, USD and EUR)
>  
Yes, I use four at the moment: GBP, USD, EUR and AUD and this is the
first time I've had problems in nearly a year of operations. I thought I
had the whole thing sorted :-(

Nigel

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[Michael Richardson-5]

>>>>> "Nigel" == Nigel Titley <nigel@...> writes:
    Nigel> However, let me re-state my immediate problem:

    Nigel> 1. I have unbalanced transactions which I want to get rid
    Nigel> of... how do I do it?

Can you screenshot this please?

Unbalanced transactions generally do not occur in the system, but, my
experience is that sometimes transactions appear unbalanced because
they are viewed with the wrong foreign currency options.

What I understood is that perhaps you have a rounding error where a
customer has underpaid by 0.01 units.

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[Nigel Titley]

Michael Richardson wrote:

>>>>>> "Nigel" == Nigel Titley <nigel@...> writes:
>>>>>>            
>     Nigel> However, let me re-state my immediate problem:
>
>     Nigel> 1. I have unbalanced transactions which I want to get rid
>     Nigel> of... how do I do it?
>
> Can you screenshot this please?
>
> Unbalanced transactions generally do not occur in the system, but, my
> experience is that sometimes transactions appear unbalanced because
> they are viewed with the wrong foreign currency options.
>  

This lack of balance appears in the Trial Balance report. I'm not sure
that I can change the currency options there.
Everything has balanced since the beginning of the year up to this
payment. What exactly do you want to see? I'm happy to send a screen
shot directly to you.
> What I understood is that perhaps you have a rounding error where a
> customer has underpaid by 0.01 units.
>  
No this isn't a rounding error. I could cope with that.


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