Music magic tool

[Bill Kendrick]

I need sound files!  And lots of them!
(And ideas for how to improve this tool; I'll prob. default it to 2 octaves,
and might add different variations for different musical scales; e.g.,
add pentatonic.)

See:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNuB9P4bBRw

For an individual instrument where I'm simply playing different pitches,
it seems sufficient to use Audacity to adjust the pitch.
(SDL_mixer doesn't(?) include built-in pitch-shifting.)

Right now, the sounds I got were some I lifted off the net, and aren't
appropriately-licensed for distribution as part of Tux Paint.
(I'm also not sure if this tool should be part of Tux Paint core, or
as a separate optional download.)

--
-bill!
Sent from my computer

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[Caroline Ford-2]

No time at the moment. Wikimedia commons may have something though.

Sent from a mobile device.

On 14 Oct 2009, at 22:49, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:

>
> I need sound files!  And lots of them!
> (And ideas for how to improve this tool; I'll prob. default it to 2  
> octaves,
> and might add different variations for different musical scales; e.g.,
> add pentatonic.)
>
> See:
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNuB9P4bBRw
>
> For an individual instrument where I'm simply playing different  
> pitches,
> it seems sufficient to use Audacity to adjust the pitch.
> (SDL_mixer doesn't(?) include built-in pitch-shifting.)
>
> Right now, the sounds I got were some I lifted off the net, and aren't
> appropriately-licensed for distribution as part of Tux Paint.
> (I'm also not sure if this tool should be part of Tux Paint core, or
> as a separate optional download.)
>
> --
> -bill!
> Sent from my computer
>
> ---
> ---
> ---
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[Bill Kendrick]

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 11:04:09PM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote:
> No time at the moment. Wikimedia commons may have something though.

Tried that.  Now having a lively discussion on #sdl about licensing of
content (e.g., why is a sound file "GPL"?  did we get the 'source'? :) )

I'm getting kind of fed up with license issues, and wish we could just
clean the slate, pick one 'good' license, and convince everyone to
re-license their contributions.

*ergh*

-bill!

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[Bill Kendrick]

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 03:15:03PM -0700, Bill Kendrick wrote:
>
> Tried that.  Now having a lively discussion on #sdl about licensing of
> content (e.g., why is a sound file "GPL"?  did we get the 'source'? :) )

This may be the answer!
  http://freepats.zenvoid.org/

"Freepats is a project to create a free and open set of instrument
patches, in any format, that can be used with softsynths."

The README[*] states:

  This patch set is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
  modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
  as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
  of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
  ...
  As a special exception, if you create a composition which uses
  these patches, and mix these patches or unaltered portions of
  these patches into the composition, these patches do not by
  themselves cause the resulting composition to be covered by the
  GNU General Public License. This exception does not however
  invalidate any other reasons why the document might be covered
  by the GNU General Public License. If you modify these patches,
  you may extend this exception to your version of the patches,
  but you are not obligated to do so. If you do not wish to do so,
  delete this exception statement from your version.


[*] http://freepats.zenvoid.org/freepats/README


Thanks to EvanR for pointing out freepats.
License experts, does the above suffice to keep, e.g., Debian happy???

--
-bill!
Sent from my computer

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[Caroline Ford-2]

Ignore them. There is an understanding of free audio and graphics and  
which licences are GPL friendly.

Sent from a mobile device.

On 14 Oct 2009, at 23:15, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 11:04:09PM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote:
>> No time at the moment. Wikimedia commons may have something though.
>
> Tried that.  Now having a lively discussion on #sdl about licensing of
> content (e.g., why is a sound file "GPL"?  did we get the  
> 'source'? :) )
>
> I'm getting kind of fed up with license issues, and wish we could just
> clean the slate, pick one 'good' license, and convince everyone to
> re-license their contributions.
>
> *ergh*
>
> -bill!
>
> ---
> ---
> ---
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
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> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and  
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> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
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[Caroline Ford-2]

Of course that's Debian FSG friendly!

Not being on irc I've no idea what people have been saying. A lot of  
copyright lawyering is low quality.

Sent from a mobile device.

On 14 Oct 2009, at 23:23, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:

>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 03:15:03PM -0700, Bill Kendrick wrote:
>>
>> Tried that.  Now having a lively discussion on #sdl about licensing  
>> of
>> content (e.g., why is a sound file "GPL"?  did we get the  
>> 'source'? :) )
>
> This may be the answer!
>  http://freepats.zenvoid.org/
>
> "Freepats is a project to create a free and open set of instrument
> patches, in any format, that can be used with softsynths."
>
> The README[*] states:
>
>  This patch set is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
>  modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
>  as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
>  of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
>  ...
>  As a special exception, if you create a composition which uses
>  these patches, and mix these patches or unaltered portions of
>  these patches into the composition, these patches do not by
>  themselves cause the resulting composition to be covered by the
>  GNU General Public License. This exception does not however
>  invalidate any other reasons why the document might be covered
>  by the GNU General Public License. If you modify these patches,
>  you may extend this exception to your version of the patches,
>  but you are not obligated to do so. If you do not wish to do so,
>  delete this exception statement from your version.
>
>
> [*] http://freepats.zenvoid.org/freepats/README
>
>
> Thanks to EvanR for pointing out freepats.
> License experts, does the above suffice to keep, e.g., Debian happy???
>
> --
> -bill!
> Sent from my computer
>
> ---
> ---
> ---
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[Bill Kendrick]

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 11:29:41PM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote:
> Of course that's Debian FSG friendly!

Yeah, considering Freepats is in Ubuntu, it's probably sufficient.
I discovered a tool (ran full circle around the net before I discovered
there's a copy of the source at the Freepats site) that can convert PAT
files into RAW sound files.

I just loaded one into Audacity.  "BBiiiinngg."  Nice deep piano note.
So I think I'm set!  (Well, in terms of _finding_ stuff.  The manual
labor of converting to OGG will take some time.)

-bill!

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[Albert Cahalan]

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:

> I need sound files!  And lots of them!
> (And ideas for how to improve this tool; I'll prob. default it to 2 octaves,
> and might add different variations for different musical scales; e.g.,
> add pentatonic.)

Bohlen-Pierce, 19-edo, 22-edo, 31-edo  >:-)

> (I'm also not sure if this tool should be part of Tux Paint core, or
> as a separate optional download.)

Separate, for sure.

I get the feeling you are sick of Tux Paint. :-( You did all sorts
of games, and then this one project took off like crazy. People
really love Tux Paint. I'd really like to see Tux Paint remain the
best paint program for kids instead of growing strange ill-fitting
appendages. Kid Pix of course got weird, but that's because a
commercial app must constantly tout NEW NEW NEW to get
existing customers to pay for upgrades. You can see all the
good it ultimately did them.

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[Bill Kendrick]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 03:29:10AM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:
>
> > I need sound files!  And lots of them!
> > (And ideas for how to improve this tool; I'll prob. default it to 2 octaves,
> > and might add different variations for different musical scales; e.g.,
> > add pentatonic.)
>
> Bohlen-Pierce, 19-edo, 22-edo, 31-edo  >:-)

Ack. :)  I'd need to hit Wikipedia to even begin to know what you're
talking about.  Of course, that's one of the joys of open source...
I can let other people worry about it, if they care enough. ;)


> > (I'm also not sure if this tool should be part of Tux Paint core, or
> > as a separate optional download.)
>
> Separate, for sure.

Considering it's such a weird thing to do with a paint program, and
the fact that it will include dozens of OGG files, I think I agree.
It'll be a pain to maintain Yet Another Download, but whatever...
I turned Tux Paint's Magic stuff into an API to make things extensible.
Tux Paint itself doesn't need to include the kitchen sink... you can add
it yourself, later. ;)


> I get the feeling you are sick of Tux Paint. :-(

Some days.  And in a few different ways:

1. There ARE other cool, edu-style projects I'd like to develop
   (including music ones).  Anything new (esp. in a realm that I know
   even less about than graphics, such as music) would take a lot of
   overhead to design and figure out.  Sounds like fun, but with
   a toddler, an active Linux User Group, a day job, and Tux Paint, I

2. Sometimes I feel like we should scrap the whole project, start with
   an official design, and create it all from scratch.


> You did all sorts
> of games, and then this one project took off like crazy. People
> really love Tux Paint. I'd really like to see Tux Paint remain the
> best paint program for kids instead of growing strange ill-fitting
> appendages. Kid Pix of course got weird, but that's because a
> commercial app must constantly tout NEW NEW NEW to get
> existing customers to pay for upgrades. You can see all the
> good it ultimately did them.

What I like about Tux Paint (compared to anything else I've done)
is the sheer number of people who (a) have come forward to help with it
and (b) who use and enjoy it -- like, REALLY enjoy it. :)


Anyway, I think it's ok for me to use Tux Paint as a platform to scratch
itches, right? :)

-bill!

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[Caroline Ford-2]

I think we should actually make the stamps into a default and extra  
packages (or maybe themes). It is getting a bit big really and there  
has been a complaint about the size of the stamps file. When companies  
have shipped tuxpaint they seem to miss out the stamps completely.

The main (and fair) whinge I hear about tuxpaint is the difficulty in  
adding photos as starters to draw on.

Caroline

Sent from a mobile device.

On 15 Oct 2009, at 20:30, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 03:29:10AM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:
>>
>>> I need sound files!  And lots of them!
>>> (And ideas for how to improve this tool; I'll prob. default it to  
>>> 2 octaves,
>>> and might add different variations for different musical scales;  
>>> e.g.,
>>> add pentatonic.)
>>
>> Bohlen-Pierce, 19-edo, 22-edo, 31-edo  >:-)
>
> Ack. :)  I'd need to hit Wikipedia to even begin to know what you're
> talking about.  Of course, that's one of the joys of open source...
> I can let other people worry about it, if they care enough. ;)
>
>
>>> (I'm also not sure if this tool should be part of Tux Paint core, or
>>> as a separate optional download.)
>>
>> Separate, for sure.
>
> Considering it's such a weird thing to do with a paint program, and
> the fact that it will include dozens of OGG files, I think I agree.
> It'll be a pain to maintain Yet Another Download, but whatever...
> I turned Tux Paint's Magic stuff into an API to make things  
> extensible.
> Tux Paint itself doesn't need to include the kitchen sink... you can  
> add
> it yourself, later. ;)
>
>
>> I get the feeling you are sick of Tux Paint. :-(
>
> Some days.  And in a few different ways:
>
> 1. There ARE other cool, edu-style projects I'd like to develop
>   (including music ones).  Anything new (esp. in a realm that I know
>   even less about than graphics, such as music) would take a lot of
>   overhead to design and figure out.  Sounds like fun, but with
>   a toddler, an active Linux User Group, a day job, and Tux Paint, I
>
> 2. Sometimes I feel like we should scrap the whole project, start with
>   an official design, and create it all from scratch.
>
>
>> You did all sorts
>> of games, and then this one project took off like crazy. People
>> really love Tux Paint. I'd really like to see Tux Paint remain the
>> best paint program for kids instead of growing strange ill-fitting
>> appendages. Kid Pix of course got weird, but that's because a
>> commercial app must constantly tout NEW NEW NEW to get
>> existing customers to pay for upgrades. You can see all the
>> good it ultimately did them.
>
> What I like about Tux Paint (compared to anything else I've done)
> is the sheer number of people who (a) have come forward to help with  
> it
> and (b) who use and enjoy it -- like, REALLY enjoy it. :)
>
>
> Anyway, I think it's ok for me to use Tux Paint as a platform to  
> scratch
> itches, right? :)
>
> -bill!
>
> ---
> ---
> ---
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Bill Kendrick]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:45:29PM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote:
> I think we should actually make the stamps into a default and extra  
> packages (or maybe themes). It is getting a bit big really and there  
> has been a complaint about the size of the stamps file. When companies  
> have shipped tuxpaint they seem to miss out the stamps completely.

True.  Between the "it comes with some penguins you can stamp" (totally
ignoring the other 800+ we have available) and "it's just like MS Paint"
(gag!), there's a lot of misconception.  (At least people aren't
saying "too bad it's only for Linux" as much any more ;) )


> The main (and fair) whinge I hear about tuxpaint is the difficulty in  
> adding photos as starters to draw on.

Photos, or line drawings (a la coloring book).  The latter is trivial
now.  TP detects when there's no alpha channel, and converts white to
see-through.  (So if you drop in a 'flattened' image, or scan of a
hand drawn image, you can now paint 'under' the black lines.  Before,
you'd be painting under the white lines, too, so you'd never see what
you drew.)

Lemme know!

-bill!

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[Caroline Ford-2]

Sent from a mobile device.

On 15 Oct 2009, at 21:07, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:45:29PM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote:
>> I think we should actually make the stamps into a default and extra
>> packages (or maybe themes). It is getting a bit big really and there
>> has been a complaint about the size of the stamps file. When  
>> companies
>> have shipped tuxpaint they seem to miss out the stamps completely.
>
> True.  Between the "it comes with some penguins you can  
> stamp" (totally
> ignoring the other 800+ we have available) and "it's just like MS  
> Paint"
> (gag!), there's a lot of misconception.  (At least people aren't
> saying "too bad it's only for Linux" as much any more ;) )
>
>
>> The main (and fair) whinge I hear about tuxpaint is the difficulty in
>> adding photos as starters to draw on.
>
> Photos, or line drawings (a la coloring book).  The latter is trivial
> now.  TP detects when there's no alpha channel, and converts white to
> see-through.  (So if you drop in a 'flattened' image, or scan of a
> hand drawn image, you can now paint 'under' the black lines.  Before,
> you'd be painting under the white lines, too, so you'd never see what
> you drew.)
>
> Lemme know!
>
> -bill!
>

Photos I think as digital cameras are everywhere. Not sure line art is  
trivial as they have to use the command line or explorer. No easy GUI  
thing.

Caroline

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[Bill Kendrick]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 09:12:42PM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote:
> Photos I think as digital cameras are everywhere.

Those would be better suited for Templates (which we don't have yet),
rather than Starters (which can have both over and below layers; but
only make sense if they have SOME kind of 'over'... the 'below' is optional).


> Not sure line art is trivial as they have to use the command line or
> explorer. No easy GUI thing.

Just drag PNGs, SVGs (and soon KidPix KPXs) into the Starters folder.
(Either user-specific or global.)

I wonder if we should support JPEGs for foregrounds, too.
JPEGs suck for line art, though.  (I'm worried about artifacts causing
areas _close_ to lines being seen as part of the foreground, and hence
undrawable.)

-bill!

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[Caroline Ford-2]

On 15 Oct 2009, at 21:26, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 09:12:42PM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote:
>> Photos I think as digital cameras are everywhere.
>
> Those would be better suited for Templates (which we don't have yet),
> rather than Starters (which can have both over and below layers; but
> only make sense if they have SOME kind of 'over'... the 'below' is  
> optional).
>
>
>> Not sure line art is trivial as they have to use the command line or
>> explorer. No easy GUI thing.
>
> Just drag PNGs, SVGs (and soon KidPix KPXs) into the Starters folder.
> (Either user-specific or global.)
>
> I wonder if we should support JPEGs for foregrounds, too.
> JPEGs suck for line art, though.  (I'm worried about artifacts causing
> areas _close_ to lines being seen as part of the foreground, and hence
> undrawable.)
>
> -bill!

Digital cameras make jpegs. I doubt a non technical user would know  
what an svg or a png was.

The feedback I got was that people would like to be able to import a  
family photo and interact with it, draw on it etc.

It may amaze you that people have problems with folders but they  
really do! Work's shared drive is terrible! People make shortcuts to  
folders in the parent folder so they can find it, multiple copies of  
the same file, undated copies saved for safety..

Caroline

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[Albert Cahalan-2]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:45:29PM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote:

>> I think we should actually make the stamps into a default and extra
>> packages (or maybe themes). It is getting a bit big really and there
>> has been a complaint about the size of the stamps file. When companies
>> have shipped tuxpaint they seem to miss out the stamps completely.

The killer is translated speech. Make it go away, please!
If people actually do the translations, we're in deep trouble.
Do the math and you'll see.

With that gone, merging the stamps into the tuxpaint package
is probably a good idea.

> True.  Between the "it comes with some penguins you can stamp" (totally
> ignoring the other 800+ we have available) and "it's just like MS Paint"
> (gag!), there's a lot of misconception.  (At least people aren't
> saying "too bad it's only for Linux" as much any more ;) )

They say "too bad it also runs on Windows" I hope.
I'll settle for "at least we don't have to run Windows".
IMHO, Linux needs to have exclusive programs that
aren't an embarrasment.

>> The main (and fair) whinge I hear about tuxpaint is the difficulty in
>> adding photos as starters to draw on.
>
> Photos, or line drawings (a la coloring book).  The latter is trivial
> now.  TP detects when there's no alpha channel, and converts white to
> see-through.  (So if you drop in a 'flattened' image, or scan of a
> hand drawn image, you can now paint 'under' the black lines.  Before,
> you'd be painting under the white lines, too, so you'd never see what
> you drew.)

Woah, bug!!!!

If that meets the spec, then the spec itself is buggy. If I put a photo
in the starters directory, I obviously want it as a background.

It sounds like I'd only be able to draw on blown highlights.
A picture of a kid would have two drawable spots, the sparkles
in his eyes. That's a few pixels at most.

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[Bill Kendrick]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 10:30:38PM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:
> The killer is translated speech. Make it go away, please!
> If people actually do the translations, we're in deep trouble.
> Do the math and you'll see.

Well, what I think we need is a more sane way of packaging things.

  1. Build stamps
  2. Build language pack en_US
  3. Build language page es_ES
  ...

This, again, multiplies the number of downloads, but it's not
unheard of.  On Debian or Ubuntu, try this:

  $ aptitude search openoffice.org2-l10n

"| wc -l" and it comes out to 83 ;)


> With that gone, merging the stamps into the tuxpaint package
> is probably a good idea.

I'm still a bit against merging.  At least not everything.  Maybe have
a few more out-of-the-box.


<snip>
> Woah, bug!!!!
>
> If that meets the spec, then the spec itself is buggy. If I put a photo
> in the starters directory, I obviously want it as a background.

Starters are not, generally, backgrounds.
That's what Templates will be for.

Of course, to the kids, they'll all just be pictures to pick from the "New"
dialog.

The outline ones will always be "draw underneath."

The photo ones will almost always be "draw on top of".  (A few, like
the underwater Reef scene, will actually be handled as a Starter, with
the overlay.)


The problem is that I came up with the cool coloring-book idea first,
then extended it (by adding "XYZ-back.png" background support, to get
images like the reef), and STILL haven't added the more basic
'load a flat picture and draw on it' feature. :)

(Makes me curious... with "Templates" in Kid Pix, the few I've
seen look a lot like the black-and-white 'coloring book' style Starters
we have in Tux Paint.  But I'm betting you can paint right over the lines.
It seems most people use them for classroom activities or
"use the bucket fill" paint-by-number-ish stuff)


> It sounds like I'd only be able to draw on blown highlights.
> A picture of a kid would have two drawable spots, the sparkles
> in his eyes. That's a few pixels at most.

Heh.  Well, if I hadn't just spent an hour cleaning up the server at work,
I'd finally just get off my butt and add Templates.  Perhaps tomorrow night.

-bill!

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[Albert Cahalan-2]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:30 AM, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:

> (Makes me curious... with "Templates" in Kid Pix, the few I've
> seen look a lot like the black-and-white 'coloring book' style Starters
> we have in Tux Paint.  But I'm betting you can paint right over the lines.
> It seems most people use them for classroom activities or
> "use the bucket fill" paint-by-number-ish stuff)

Is painting over the lines really so bad?

Consider the reef for example. If you want to paint in the foreground,
you're out of luck. Part of the image is simply broken; with very few
exceptions (mirror and flip), Tux Paint's tools silently fail in that area.
I expect lots of confusion and frustration with that one.

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[Bill Kendrick]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:30:31AM -0700, Bill Kendrick wrote:
> Heh.  Well, if I hadn't just spent an hour cleaning up the server at work,
> I'd finally just get off my butt and add Templates.  Perhaps tomorrow night.

Forget that. Sleep si for the week. I just added Template support.

Gnite!

-bill!

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[Caroline Ford-2]

Woo!

Sent from a mobile device.

On 16 Oct 2009, at 10:16, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:30:31AM -0700, Bill Kendrick wrote:
>> Heh.  Well, if I hadn't just spent an hour cleaning up the server  
>> at work,
>> I'd finally just get off my butt and add Templates.  Perhaps  
>> tomorrow night.
>
> Forget that. Sleep si for the week. I just added Template support.
>
> Gnite!
>
> -bill!
>
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