Nabble - Musicbrainz - Devel

No dev chat this week

2009-11-28T06:04:34Z

Since we're having the MusicBrainz summit this weekend it will be
rather pointless to have a dev chat on monday. Lets resume the
meetings next monday, Dec 7.

--

--ruaok The answer to whether or not something is a good idea
or not, should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it.

Robert Kaye -- rob@... -- http://mayhem-chaos.net

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Re: {Disarmed} Summit: General MB topics: Links

2009-11-28T06:01:51Z

On Nov 28, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Robert Kaye wrote:

The music recommendation demo:

MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "docs.google.com" claiming to be http://jukebox.freebaseapps.com/

Oops. Cut and paste mishap there. Click this:

http://jukebox.freebaseapps.com/

--ruaok The answer to whether or not something is a good idea

or not, should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it.

Robert Kaye -- rob@... -- http://mayhem-chaos.net

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{Disarmed} Summit: General MB topics: Links

2009-11-28T02:55:35Z

I gave a general state of MusicBrainz summit talk and I referenced a few links:

The music recommendation demo:

MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "docs.google.com" claiming to be http://jukebox.freebaseapps.com/

The company that wants to work with MusicBrainz to bring us concert info:

http://www.preamped.com/

The future proof fingerprinting project I mentioned:

http://jhears.org/.

For more context of these links, please see the notes that are being kept for the summit:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Aall7niXqYFuZGdudDNzYjdfMTEzamNxcDNmNg&hl=en&invite=CJuUs-gE

--ruaok The answer to whether or not something is a good idea

or not, should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it.

Robert Kaye -- rob@... -- http://mayhem-chaos.net

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Summit: Summit notes

2009-11-28T02:42:26Z

Here is a google document that will be used for keeping summit notes:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Aall7niXqYFuZGdudDNzYjdfMTEzamNxcDNmNg&hl=en&invite=CJuUs-gE

Thanks to Luciddreamer for keeping notes!

--ruaok The answer to whether or not something is a good idea

or not, should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it.

Robert Kaye -- rob@... -- http://mayhem-chaos.net

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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-11-23T12:48:18Z

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 09:07:49AM +0100, Kuno Woudt wrote:
>
> As last week, ruaok will likely not be available for this
> weeks meeting. I'd still like to host a quick meeting
> before the summit, so please join me at 20:00 UK, 21:00
> mainland europe, 15:00 EST, 12:00 PST.

Chatlog is available from:

http://chatlogs.musicbrainz.org/musicbrainz-devel/2009/2009-11/2009-11-23.html#T20-00-49-131460

The log for todays meeting starts ot 20:00 in this log.

See you all at the summit!

-- kuno / warp.

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Dev chat reminder

2009-11-23T00:07:49Z

Hello!

As last week, ruaok will likely not be available for this
weeks meeting. I'd still like to host a quick meeting
before the summit, so please join me at 20:00 UK, 21:00
mainland europe, 15:00 EST, 12:00 PST.

-- kuno / warp.

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Re: ARs at tracklist level

2009-11-16T18:37:54Z

The "fuzzy identification" we worked out last year also gets damaged without this level of AR; now, if you know Foo played sax on some disc, but not the particular track, without tracklist-level ARs, you'd be forced to set that fuzzy AR at the release level - we'd lose the specificity of at least knowing that that AR applies to that specific medium, even if you don't know the particular track on that medium, rather than only knowing that the AR applies to some track within the overall release.

Brian

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Andrew John Hughes <gnu_andrew@...> wrote:

2009/11/16 Andrew John Hughes <gnu_andrew@...>:

> Comments from murdos on
> http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=11462621 have made me aware
> of a potential issue with NGS; we don't have the ability to add an AR
> at tracklist level. With releases now encompassing multiple discs,
> the tracklist is the only place it makes sense to represent a DJ mix
> which encompasses a number of tracks on a release. As murdos points
> out on the edit, it seems existing DJ mix relationships at the
> per-disc level will be collated together at the release level.
> Instead, these should be being moved to the tracklisting which is what
> the mix is; a DJ mix of several tracks.
>
> It doesn't make sense to move them down to the per-track level. Take
> a look at http://test.musicbrainz.org/tracklist/826687. There needs
> to be one AR to say that tracklisting was DJ mixed by Bass Kleph. It
> doesn't make sense to have 17 per-track relationships saying e.g.
> 'Deep Love - Frew was DJ mixed by Bass Kleph'. One track isn't a DJ
> mix. The DJ mix AR at track level has a different use when mixes are
> contained in a single track e.g. mixes without track splitting
> (http://musicbrainz.org/track/0b8a9dd9-9598-497d-9ddd-179db227b049.html),
> and mashups (http://musicbrainz.org/track/17800211-4f19-45c1-982d-268b9493dd2e.html)
> -- though in the case of these examples, they haven't been added which
> probably explains why the use is unclear.
>
> Can we please have a DJ mix AR at the track level in NGS?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Andrew :-)
>
> Free Java Software Engineer
> Red Hat, Inc. (http://www.redhat.com)
>
> Support Free Java!
> Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK
> http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath
> http://openjdk.java.net
>
> PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net)
> Fingerprint: F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8
>

Likewise, the notion of artist at the tracklist level is lost:

http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/d8f0aebd-2e01-3b26-8ae7-c90bd7fc7e82.html

(one disc Hixxy, one disc Sharkey) becomes:

http://test.musicbrainz.org/release/e70c2216-03a3-40ac-a454-37789d28f36b

with the whole release now by Hixxy.

--
Andrew :-)

Free Java Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc. (http://www.redhat.com)

Support Free Java!
Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK
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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-11-16T13:42:53Z

Hello!

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 09:04:19PM +0100, Kuno Woudt wrote:
> We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday November 16 on IRC in
> #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net. With ruaok already on his way
> to europe he may not be able to make it, in that case I will be
> hosting the meeting instead.
>
> We're going to meet for about half an hour at 20:00 UK, 21:00 mainland
> europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.

chatlog for todays meeting is at:

http://chatlogs.musicbrainz.org/musicbrainz-devel/2009/2009-11/2009-11-16.html#T20-00-14-716606

As usual, the meeting starts at 20:00 in the log.

-- kuno / warp.

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Re: ARs at tracklist level

2009-11-16T10:23:09Z

2009/11/16 Andrew John Hughes <gnu_andrew@...>:

> Comments from murdos on
> http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=11462621 have made me aware
> of a potential issue with NGS; we don't have the ability to add an AR
> at tracklist level. With releases now encompassing multiple discs,
> the tracklist is the only place it makes sense to represent a DJ mix
> which encompasses a number of tracks on a release. As murdos points
> out on the edit, it seems existing DJ mix relationships at the
> per-disc level will be collated together at the release level.
> Instead, these should be being moved to the tracklisting which is what
> the mix is; a DJ mix of several tracks.
>
> It doesn't make sense to move them down to the per-track level. Take
> a look at http://test.musicbrainz.org/tracklist/826687. There needs
> to be one AR to say that tracklisting was DJ mixed by Bass Kleph. It
> doesn't make sense to have 17 per-track relationships saying e.g.
> 'Deep Love - Frew was DJ mixed by Bass Kleph'. One track isn't a DJ
> mix. The DJ mix AR at track level has a different use when mixes are
> contained in a single track e.g. mixes without track splitting
> (http://musicbrainz.org/track/0b8a9dd9-9598-497d-9ddd-179db227b049.html),
> and mashups (http://musicbrainz.org/track/17800211-4f19-45c1-982d-268b9493dd2e.html)
> -- though in the case of these examples, they haven't been added which
> probably explains why the use is unclear.
>
> Can we please have a DJ mix AR at the track level in NGS?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Andrew :-)
>
> Free Java Software Engineer
> Red Hat, Inc. (http://www.redhat.com)
>
> Support Free Java!
> Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK
> http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath
> http://openjdk.java.net
>
> PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net)
> Fingerprint: F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8
>

Likewise, the notion of artist at the tracklist level is lost:

http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/d8f0aebd-2e01-3b26-8ae7-c90bd7fc7e82.html

(one disc Hixxy, one disc Sharkey) becomes:

http://test.musicbrainz.org/release/e70c2216-03a3-40ac-a454-37789d28f36b

with the whole release now by Hixxy.
--
Andrew :-)

Free Java Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc. (http://www.redhat.com)

Support Free Java!
Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK
http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath
http://openjdk.java.net

PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net)
Fingerprint: F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8

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ARs at tracklist level

2009-11-16T09:39:58Z

Comments from murdos on
http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=11462621 have made me aware
of a potential issue with NGS; we don't have the ability to add an AR
at tracklist level. With releases now encompassing multiple discs,
the tracklist is the only place it makes sense to represent a DJ mix
which encompasses a number of tracks on a release. As murdos points
out on the edit, it seems existing DJ mix relationships at the
per-disc level will be collated together at the release level.
Instead, these should be being moved to the tracklisting which is what
the mix is; a DJ mix of several tracks.

It doesn't make sense to move them down to the per-track level. Take
a look at http://test.musicbrainz.org/tracklist/826687. There needs
to be one AR to say that tracklisting was DJ mixed by Bass Kleph. It
doesn't make sense to have 17 per-track relationships saying e.g.
'Deep Love - Frew was DJ mixed by Bass Kleph'. One track isn't a DJ
mix. The DJ mix AR at track level has a different use when mixes are
contained in a single track e.g. mixes without track splitting
(http://musicbrainz.org/track/0b8a9dd9-9598-497d-9ddd-179db227b049.html),
and mashups (http://musicbrainz.org/track/17800211-4f19-45c1-982d-268b9493dd2e.html)
-- though in the case of these examples, they haven't been added which
probably explains why the use is unclear.

Can we please have a DJ mix AR at the track level in NGS?

Thanks,
--
Andrew :-)

Free Java Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc. (http://www.redhat.com)

Support Free Java!
Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK
http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath
http://openjdk.java.net

PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net)
Fingerprint: F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8

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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-11-15T23:46:32Z

Feh. Sorry about the blank post. Thou shalt not read mb-devel while
still in bed. :)

--ruaok

On Nov 15, 2009, at 20:04, Kuno Woudt <kuno@...> wrote:

>
> Hello!
>
> We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday November 16 on IRC in
> #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net. With ruaok already on his way
> to europe he may not be able to make it, in that case I will be
> hosting the meeting instead.
>
> We're going to meet for about half an hour at 20:00 UK, 21:00 mainland
> europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.
>
> -- kuno / warp.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-devel mailing list
> MusicBrainz-devel@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-devel

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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-11-15T23:45:13Z

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 15, 2009, at 20:04, Kuno Woudt <kuno@...> wrote:

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Dev chat reminder

2009-11-15T12:04:19Z

Hello!

We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday November 16 on IRC in
#musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net. With ruaok already on his way
to europe he may not be able to make it, in that case I will be
hosting the meeting instead.

We're going to meet for about half an hour at 20:00 UK, 21:00 mainland
europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.

-- kuno / warp.

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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-11-09T12:42:41Z

On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 11:46:12PM -0800, Robert Kaye wrote:
> We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday November 9 on IRC
> in #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net . We're going to meet for
> about 1 hour at 8pm UK, 9pm mainland europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.
>
> We'll review the last week and see how close our elusive beta we are.

chatlog for this weeks meeting is at the following url, starting at
20:00 as usual:

http://chatlogs.musicbrainz.org/musicbrainz-devel/2009/2009-11/2009-11-09.html#T20-00-05-644273

We reviewed the past week, decided on what needs to be done for the
beta release (this: http://bugs.musicbrainz.org/report/34 ), and
coordinated a few details regarding the summit schedule.

luks and prodoc, if you're reading, please note your arrival times on
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/MusicBrainz_Summit_10#Attendees if you
know what time you'll be arriving. thanks!

-- kuno / warp.

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Dev chat reminder

2009-11-08T23:46:12Z

We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday November 9 on IRC
in #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net . We're going to meet for
about 1 hour at 8pm UK, 9pm mainland europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.

We'll review the last week and see how close our elusive beta we are.

--

--ruaok The answer to whether or not something is a good idea
or not, should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it.

Robert Kaye -- rob@... -- http://mayhem-chaos.net

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Re: Review board troubles

2009-11-06T13:28:42Z

On Nov 5, 2009, at 11:49 PM, Lukáš Lalinský wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Robert Kaye <rob@...> wrote:
>> I've tried to post the attached diff as an update to review 451,
>> but it
>> fails silently. When I try to create a new review it fails with:
>>
>> "The file '/mb_server/trunk/lib/MusicBrainz/Server/Data/
>> ReleaseGroup.pm'
>> (r12276) could not be found in the repository"
>>
>> That file is present in that rev, so I'm outta ideas what could be
>> wrong.
>> Anyone have an idea?
>
> Works for me. You have to select:
>
> Repository: MusicBrainz Server SVN
> Base directory: /trunk

Hmm, ok. Thanks for submitting it.

--

--ruaok The answer to whether or not something is a good idea
or not, should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it.

Robert Kaye -- rob@... -- http://mayhem-chaos.net

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Re: Review board troubles

2009-11-05T23:49:42Z

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Robert Kaye <rob@...> wrote:
> I've tried to post the attached diff as an update to review 451, but it
> fails silently. When I try to create a new review it fails with:
>
> "The file '/mb_server/trunk/lib/MusicBrainz/Server/Data/ReleaseGroup.pm'
> (r12276) could not be found in the repository"
>
> That file is present in that rev, so I'm outta ideas what could be wrong.
> Anyone have an idea?

Works for me. You have to select:

Repository: MusicBrainz Server SVN
Base directory: /trunk

--
Lukas Lalinsky
lalinsky@...

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Review board troubles

2009-11-05T16:21:23Z

I've tried to post the attached diff as an update to review 451, but
it fails silently. When I try to create a new review it fails with:

"The file '/mb_server/trunk/lib/MusicBrainz/Server/Data/
ReleaseGroup.pm' (r12276) could not be found in the repository"

That file is present in that rev, so I'm outta ideas what could be
wrong. Anyone have an idea?

--

--ruaok The answer to whether or not something is a good idea
or not, should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it.

Robert Kaye -- rob@... -- http://mayhem-chaos.net

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web_service_2.diff (35K) Download Attachment

Re: Suggestion for widening MB Data Schema to address many artist issues.

2009-11-04T02:31:55Z

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:57:24 -0800
> Von: Robert Kaye <rob@...>

> I disagree -- for each of these releases we can create an
> artist_credit that is correct for that particular release. These will
> in turn then link back to a canonical artist that will have the
> artists name as they want to have the artist credited. I think NGS
> will handle all of these cases just fine

FWIW, this is the same as what I said on Vivek's earlier crosspost to the forums: http://forums.musicbrainz.org/viewtopic.php?id=1940 and also mentioned about what would be cool in how taggers could use these credits vs. canonical names in future.

Cheers
Chad
--
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Re: Suggestion for widening MB Data Schema to address many artist issues.

2009-11-03T13:57:24Z

On Oct 26, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Vivek Kushwaha wrote:

> Case of Mama Cass: There are (solo) artists who have released albums
> under different stage name over the course of their career. E.g.
> Mama Cass (Real Name: Ellen Naomi Cohen) used Cass Elliot in her
> later albums. We end up with three different entries and albums
> under two of them. Someone often ends up adding album at the wrong
> place because people she remained Mama Cass for most even when she
> hated being called that.
>
> Case of Siouxsie Sioux: Born Susan Janet Ballion, for most of the
> 80s, 90s half of 2000s she called herself Siouxsie Sioux. Beginning
> from "Siouxsie and the Banshees" to "Siouxsie & Morrisey"
> collaboration; we all would say "Siouxsie Sioux" was a member
> of .... When going solo now she opted for "Siouxsie." Again we ended
> up with a lot names and some people will be saying we can simply
> rename entry for "Siouxsie Sioux" to "Siouxsie" 'coz there isn't
> going to be any release cataloged under "Siouxsie Sioux."
>
> I have looked at the NGS plan and they are already looking for
> method to make collaborations easier by use of artist_credit,which I
> think won't help us much.

I disagree -- for each of these releases we can create an
artist_credit that is correct for that particular release. These will
in turn then link back to a canonical artist that will have the
artists name as they want to have the artist credited. I think NGS
will handle all of these cases just fine

And logistically speaking, we need to finish NGS and get it out the
door -- which means that we can't go back to re-think anything right
now. I would suggest that you sit tight for the time being and when we
make a push for beta 1 on NGS that you go and see if NGS really can/
can't handle these cases adequately.

If not, we can discuss this for our post NGS roadmap.

--

--ruaok The answer to whether or not something is a good idea
or not, should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it.

Robert Kaye -- rob@... -- http://mayhem-chaos.net

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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-11-02T12:50:39Z

Hello mb-devel!

On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 06:05:17PM -0800, Robert Kaye wrote:
> We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday October 26 on IRC
> in #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net . We're going to meet for
> about 1 hour at 8pm UK, 9pm mainland europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.
>
> Time to review our progress from the last week and see where we are on
> the road to the first NGS beta.

This weeks log is at the following url, as last week, the meeting starts
at 20:00 in the log.

http://chatlogs.musicbrainz.org/musicbrainz-devel/2009/2009-11/2009-11-02.html#T20-00-03-477054

-- kuno / warp.

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Dev chat reminder

2009-11-01T18:05:17Z

We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday October 26 on IRC
in #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net . We're going to meet for
about 1 hour at 8pm UK, 9pm mainland europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.

Time to review our progress from the last week and see where we are on
the road to the first NGS beta.

--

--ruaok The answer to whether or not something is a good idea
or not, should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it.

Robert Kaye -- rob@... -- http://mayhem-chaos.net

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Picard 0.12.1 hotfix release

2009-11-01T11:12:14Z

Hi,

Picard 0.12.1 is an important hotfix release. Due to a bug Picard 0.12
deletes all ID3 comment tags (COMM frames) when saving files. In
addition this release restores the native file dialog when adding
folders on Windows.

Sorry for the trouble.

Download
========

Picard 0.12.1 is available for download for Windows and Linux:
http://musicbrainz.org/doc/PicardDownload

Changes
=======

* Fixed deletion of all COMM frames in ID3, which was introduced
with the iTunNORM fix in Picard 0.12.0.
* Restored native add folder dialog.

--
Philipp Wolfer

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Re: Suggestion for widening MB Data Schema to address many artist issues.

2009-10-27T03:23:18Z

It's late, and I've been up for far too long, so only a short response. :D

I'd suggest that the breakdown you present is still too simplified. Take your #2, as example; you define it as "acquired by (one and exactly one) person, with a name which may be different from his real name." However, there are also the cases where you have a stage persona which more than one person may voice - this is quite common in the fictional artists, where you may have a cartoon character (or muppet) who has had multiple people provide the voice over time, or where one person may provide the speaking voice, while another provides the singing voice.

Or, in respect to bands, one issue I've been running into frequently lately, which is sub-groups; the closest to a correct description I can figure is to misuse (or is it a misuse?) the "member of" AR, such that we describe group X with subgroup Y as "(group) artist Y is/was a member of (group) artist X". Subgroups too would seem to fall outside of the breakdown you provided.

As for the problem you suggest initially, if I understand correctly, artist_credit is being introduced to solve exactly that problem - you have an artist "Siouxsie Sioux", who has an AC "Siouxsie"; on track X of release A, the credit on the liner is to "Siouxsie Sioux", but on track Y of release B the credit is given to "Siouxsie". As for collaborations, that's an entirely different beast; "Siouxsie & Foo Bar" no longer is a fake workaround artist, but is instead made up of five things: "Siouxsie Sioux" (the artist), "Siouxsie" (the AC used by that artist in this collab), "&" (the particular separator used in the collab), "Foo Bar" (the other artist), and "Foo Bar" (the AC used by the 2nd artist; in this case the AC being identical to the artist's 'true' name).

Brian

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Vivek Kushwaha <yoursvivek@...> wrote:

Hi,
This being my first post on MB mailing list, please tolerate all my deviations for observed norms, if any. After my post on forum, someone suggested my to make a post here. Goals being discussion and possible implementation, following is my post.

---

With the current MB schema for artists there are several issues which go unaddressed. I would like to throw a light some of the problems and suggest a better scheme.

Case of Mama Cass: There are (solo) artists who have released albums under different stage name over the course of their career. E.g. Mama Cass (Real Name: Ellen Naomi Cohen) used Cass Elliot in her later albums. We end up with three different entries and albums under two of them. Someone often ends up adding album at the wrong place because people she remained Mama Cass for most even when she hated being called that.

Case of Siouxsie Sioux: Born Susan Janet Ballion, for most of the 80s, 90s half of 2000s she called herself Siouxsie Sioux. Beginning from "Siouxsie and the Banshees" to "Siouxsie & Morrisey" collaboration; we all would say "Siouxsie Sioux" was a member of .... When going solo now she opted for "Siouxsie." Again we ended up with a lot names and some people will be saying we can simply rename entry for "Siouxsie Sioux" to "Siouxsie" 'coz there isn't going to be any release cataloged under "Siouxsie Sioux."

I have looked at the NGS plan and they are already looking for method to make collaborations easier by use of artist_credit,which I think won't help us much.

We should look back at our data type and distinguish them based on the type of entities they are and then try to determine what exactly is the string which will go into artist in our music tracks.

Fundamentally we have three types of entities.

1. A Person: As in real life, with a date of birth, place of birth, etc.

2. A Stage Persona: acquired by (one and exactly one) person, with a name which may be different from his real name.

3. A band: which is an ensemble of one or more stage persona. This is what we want to be there in our tags. They have a date of formation, date of disbandment etc. This is the entity which releases albums.

we can go for relationships as follows:
person one-to-many stage persona
stagePersona many-to-many band

we can provide new features in site browsing where one can access a page like h*tp://musicbrainz.org/person/<personID>.html and can access to all his work cronologically in tables as
<year> | <title (RG)> | <band> | <stagePersona> | <type-of-release>

There are endless new things that can be worked up. All I wanted to say is that this kind of structure will provide more robust framework to work with and will be able to handle even more complicated artist/band relationships that we do now; and with lesser redundancy.

I'm not a SQL guru or anything, so whoever is working with MB database will have to chalk out the implementation, joins, number of tables etc.

This idea just sprouted out of a problem I had with edit on "Siouxsie Sioux." I'm sure others have faced other limitations in current system and discussed it on edit notes with or without result. I've also forgot a few things that were in my mind before about this artist scheme.

I guess it will get a wider audience in forum and might help in improvement of MB rather than staying in my mind for some more time and then be lost for ever.

Regards,
Vivek
@MB site/forum: yoursvivek

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Suggestion for widening MB Data Schema to address many artist issues.

2009-10-26T17:03:34Z

Hi,
This being my first post on MB mailing list, please tolerate all my deviations for observed norms, if any. After my post on forum, someone suggested my to make a post here. Goals being discussion and possible implementation, following is my post.

---

With the current MB schema for artists there are several issues which go unaddressed. I would like to throw a light some of the problems and suggest a better scheme.

Case of Mama Cass: There are (solo) artists who have released albums under different stage name over the course of their career. E.g. Mama Cass (Real Name: Ellen Naomi Cohen) used Cass Elliot in her later albums. We end up with three different entries and albums under two of them. Someone often ends up adding album at the wrong place because people she remained Mama Cass for most even when she hated being called that.

Case of Siouxsie Sioux: Born Susan Janet Ballion, for most of the 80s, 90s half of 2000s she called herself Siouxsie Sioux. Beginning from "Siouxsie and the Banshees" to "Siouxsie & Morrisey" collaboration; we all would say "Siouxsie Sioux" was a member of .... When going solo now she opted for "Siouxsie." Again we ended up with a lot names and some people will be saying we can simply rename entry for "Siouxsie Sioux" to "Siouxsie" 'coz there isn't going to be any release cataloged under "Siouxsie Sioux."

I have looked at the NGS plan and they are already looking for method to make collaborations easier by use of artist_credit,which I think won't help us much.

We should look back at our data type and distinguish them based on the type of entities they are and then try to determine what exactly is the string which will go into artist in our music tracks.

Fundamentally we have three types of entities.

1. A Person: As in real life, with a date of birth, place of birth, etc.

2. A Stage Persona: acquired by (one and exactly one) person, with a name which may be different from his real name.

3. A band: which is an ensemble of one or more stage persona. This is what we want to be there in our tags. They have a date of formation, date of disbandment etc. This is the entity which releases albums.

we can go for relationships as follows:
person one-to-many stage persona
stagePersona many-to-many band

we can provide new features in site browsing where one can access a page like h*tp://musicbrainz.org/person/<personID>.html and can access to all his work cronologically in tables as
<year> | <title (RG)> | <band> | <stagePersona> | <type-of-release>

There are endless new things that can be worked up. All I wanted to say is that this kind of structure will provide more robust framework to work with and will be able to handle even more complicated artist/band relationships that we do now; and with lesser redundancy.

I'm not a SQL guru or anything, so whoever is working with MB database will have to chalk out the implementation, joins, number of tables etc.

This idea just sprouted out of a problem I had with edit on "Siouxsie Sioux." I'm sure others have faced other limitations in current system and discussed it on edit notes with or without result. I've also forgot a few things that were in my mind before about this artist scheme.

I guess it will get a wider audience in forum and might help in improvement of MB rather than staying in my mind for some more time and then be lost for ever.

Regards,
Vivek
@MB site/forum: yoursvivek

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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-10-26T13:51:20Z

Hello!

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 10:58:02PM -0700, Robert Kaye wrote:
> We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday October 26 on IRC
> in #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net . We're going to meet for
> about 1 hour at 8pm UK, 9pm mainland europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.
>

This weeks chatlog is located here:

http://chatlogs.musicbrainz.org/musicbrainz-devel/2009/2009-10/2009-10-26.html#T20-00-06-496225

We're not in Daylight Savings Time anymore, so the meeting starts at
20:00 in this log (as opposed to 19:00 in the previous weeks).

-- kuno / warp.

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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-10-26T10:37:02Z

On Oct 26, 2009, at 10:26 AM, Paul C. Bryan wrote:

Pacific is still on DST. Do you mean 1 PM PDT? ;)

Sigh. Yes.

The summer of code mentor summit is clearly not a good place to be well rested. :)

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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-10-26T10:26:29Z

Pacific is still on DST. Do you mean 1 PM PDT? ;)

On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 10:23 -0700, Robert Kaye wrote:

> Sorry for the confusion everyone -- thats what I get for living in the
> Google bubble for the whole weekend. :)
>
>
> The meeting time is 1PM PST, 4PM EST, 8PM UK, 9PM mainland EU.
>
>
> See you then!
>
> On Oct 18, 2009, at 9:52 PM, Robert Kaye wrote:
>
> > We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday October 19 on IRC
> > in #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net . We're going to meet for
> > about 1 hour at 8pm UK, 9pm mainland europe, THREE pm EST, NOON
> > PST.
> >
> > We'll catch up and see if we're getting closer to the elusive beta!
> >
> > --
> >
> > --ruaok The answer to whether or not something is a good idea
> > or not, should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do
> > it.
> >
> > Robert Kaye -- rob@... --
> > http://mayhem-chaos.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MusicBrainz-devel mailing list
> > MusicBrainz-devel@...
> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-devel
> >
>
> --
>
> --ruaok A village in Texas has its idiot back!
>
> Robert Kaye -- rob@... --
> http://mayhem-chaos.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-devel mailing list
> MusicBrainz-devel@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-devel

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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-10-26T10:23:50Z

Sorry for the confusion everyone -- thats what I get for living in the Google bubble for the whole weekend. :)

The meeting time is 1PM PST, 4PM EST, 8PM UK, 9PM mainland EU.

See you then!

On Oct 18, 2009, at 9:52 PM, Robert Kaye wrote:

We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday October 19 on IRC
in #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net . We're going to meet for
about 1 hour at 8pm UK, 9pm mainland europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.

We'll catch up and see if we're getting closer to the elusive beta!

--

--ruaok The answer to whether or not something is a good idea
or not, should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it.

Robert Kaye -- rob@... -- http://mayhem-chaos.net

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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-10-26T09:19:42Z

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 10:58:02PM -0700, Robert Kaye wrote:
> We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday October 26 on IRC
> in #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net . We're going to meet for
> about 1 hour at 8pm UK, 9pm mainland europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.

Confused.

epoch time 1256587200, or 1256583600, or 1256590800, or something else?

( cd /usr/share/zoneinfo ; find . -type f | fgrep -v .tab ) | while read z ; do echo "$( env TZ="$z" date --date @1256587200 ) : $z" ; done | less

(edited highlights)
Mon Oct 26 13:00:00 PDT 2009 : ./America/Los_Angeles
Mon Oct 26 14:00:00 MDT 2009 : ./America/Denver
Mon Oct 26 15:00:00 CDT 2009 : ./America/Chicago
Mon Oct 26 16:00:00 EDT 2009 : ./America/New_York
Mon Oct 26 20:00:00 GMT 2009 : ./Europe/London
Mon Oct 26 21:00:00 CET 2009 : ./Europe/Paris

(There's probably a really handy web site somewhere that does that).

Sorry if I didn't pick your favourite city, anyone. :-)

--
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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-10-25T23:12:31Z

Nikki wrote:

> Robert Kaye wrote:
>> We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday October 26 on IRC
>> in #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net . We're going to meet for
>> about 1 hour at 8pm UK, 9pm mainland europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.
>
> Daylight savings has ended in Europe, so it should either be 9pm
> UK/10pm mainland Europe
> or 4pm EST/1pm PST.
>
> Nikki

...or rather, 7pm UK/8pm Europe

Nikki (hates daylight savings)

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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-10-25T23:10:03Z

Robert Kaye wrote:
> We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday October 26 on IRC
> in #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net . We're going to meet for
> about 1 hour at 8pm UK, 9pm mainland europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.

Daylight savings has ended in Europe, so it should either be 9pm UK/10pm
mainland Europe
or 4pm EST/1pm PST.

Nikki

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Dev chat reminder

2009-10-25T22:58:02Z

--

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Robert Kaye -- rob@... -- http://mayhem-chaos.net

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Re: Dev chat reminder

2009-10-19T12:59:20Z

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 09:52:49PM -0700, Robert Kaye wrote:
> We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday October 19 on IRC
> in #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net . We're going to meet for
> about 1 hour at 8pm UK, 9pm mainland europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.
>
> We'll catch up and see if we're getting closer to the elusive beta!

Oh, the excitement! The chat log of todays meeting can be found at:

http://chatlogs.musicbrainz.org/musicbrainz-devel/2009/2009-10/2009-10-19.html#T19-00-02-610104

As an extra reminder: If you're coming to the tenth MusicBrainz summit,
please add your arrival time + location on the wiki page:

http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/MusicBrainz_Summit_10

-- kuno / warp

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Dev chat reminder

2009-10-18T21:52:49Z

We've got our weekly dev chat on Monday October 19 on IRC
in #musicbrainz-devel on irc.freenode.net . We're going to meet for
about 1 hour at 8pm UK, 9pm mainland europe, THREE pm EST, NOON PST.

We'll catch up and see if we're getting closer to the elusive beta!

--

--ruaok The answer to whether or not something is a good idea
or not, should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it.

Robert Kaye -- rob@... -- http://mayhem-chaos.net

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