My prosposal: Usability and the footnote function

[Patric Urbaneck]

Hey everybody,

I am just writing a term paper for my study and as always I am quite  
bugged because of the footnote-functionality.
It is very laborious to always move the mouse around to the menu and  
the menu entry to add a footnote. You can, for instance, handle this  
with a simple Ctrl + F in MS Word but this little function makes it a  
lot more pleasant to write your papers with it.
I think it would be appropriate if OpenOffice supports this in future,  
too. I hope you all agree!
Lastly I hope this discussion list is the right place for stating my  
prosposal.
I know this text may be spiked with language errors, I am quite  
"rusted"... Please be lenient :)

Yours
Patric.



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[Jonathon Blake]

On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 15:35, Patric Urbane wrote:

> simple Ctrl + F in MS Word but this little function makes it a lot more

<alt>< i >   then < . > then  <return>

If you'd prefer <CTRL><F> then:
">Tools  >Customize >Keyboard"
">Functions >Category >Insert"
">Functions >Function >Insert footnote"
"Shortcut  Keys >CTRL F"
click save, then  OK.

> I think it would be appropriate if OpenOffice supports this in future, too. I hope you all agree!

It is supported, but perhaps not quite in the manner you expected.

jonathon

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[Robert Derman-2]

jonathon wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 15:35, Patric Urbane wrote:
>
>  
>> simple Ctrl + F in MS Word but this little function makes it a lot more
>>    
>
> <alt>< i >   then < . > then  <return>
>
> If you'd prefer <CTRL><F> then:
> ">Tools  >Customize >Keyboard"
> ">Functions >Category >Insert"
> ">Functions >Function >Insert footnote"
> "Shortcut  Keys >CTRL F"
> click save, then  OK.
>
>  
>> I think it would be appropriate if OpenOffice supports this in future, too. I hope you all agree!
>>    
>
> It is supported, but perhaps not quite in the manner you expected.
>
> jonathon
>  

It is questions like this that make me think that OOo should include a
pair of manuals in the download package, either in PDF or ODF formats,
the presence of which would be made obvious the first time you opened
the suite.  The help provided under the help button is totally
inadaquate.  One should be a quick start manual, and the other should go
into extensive detail about all the modules.  If there are manuals there
now, I have not found them which shows that if they are there, they are
too hard to find.

[Patric Urbaneck]

Robert Derman schrieb:

> jonathon wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 15:35, Patric Urbane wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> simple Ctrl + F in MS Word but this little function makes it a lot more
>>>    
>>
>> <alt>< i >   then < . > then  <return>
>>
>> If you'd prefer <CTRL><F> then:
>> ">Tools  >Customize >Keyboard"
>> ">Functions >Category >Insert"
>> ">Functions >Function >Insert footnote"
>> "Shortcut  Keys >CTRL F"
>> click save, then  OK.
>>
>>  
>>> I think it would be appropriate if OpenOffice supports this in
>>> future, too. I hope you all agree!
>>>    
>>
>> It is supported, but perhaps not quite in the manner you expected.
>>
>> jonathon
>>  
> It is questions like this that make me think that OOo should include a
> pair of manuals in the download package, either in PDF or ODF formats,
> the presence of which would be made obvious the first time you opened
> the suite.  The help provided under the help button is totally
> inadaquate.  One should be a quick start manual, and the other should go
> into extensive detail about all the modules.  If there are manuals there
> now, I have not found them which shows that if they are there, they are
> too hard to find.
>

Agree!

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[Gene Young]

Robert Derman wrote:

>>  
> It is questions like this that make me think that OOo should include a
> pair of manuals in the download package, either in PDF or ODF formats,
> the presence of which would be made obvious the first time you opened
> the suite.  The help provided under the help button is totally
> inadaquate.  

How so?  Search Footnote and it tells you how.  In what way is the help
"totally inadequate"?

> One should be a quick start manual, and the other should go
> into extensive detail about all the modules.  If there are manuals there
> now, I have not found them which shows that if they are there, they are
> too hard to find.
>

--
Gene Y.

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[Robert Derman-2]

Gene Young wrote:

> Robert Derman wrote:
>
>>>  
>> It is questions like this that make me think that OOo should include
>> a pair of manuals in the download package, either in PDF or ODF
>> formats, the presence of which would be made obvious the first time
>> you opened the suite.  The help provided under the help button is
>> totally inadaquate.  
>
> How so?  Search Footnote and it tells you how.  In what way is the
> help "totally inadequate"?

I have sometimes found the info under Help to be out of date, and many
topics are simply not covered at all.  Also NO help system in ANY piece
of software is ever a real and adaquate substitute for a good users
manual.  Many times I have found that what you really need is to have
the software on screen in front of you and a manual open on the desk at
the same time.  In other words, you need a hard copy!
>
>> One should be a quick start manual, and the other should go into
>> extensive detail about all the modules.  If there are manuals there
>> now, I have not found them which shows that if they are there, they
>> are too hard to find.
>>
>


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[Jonathon Blake]

Robert Derman wrote:

> OOo should include a pair of manuals in the download package, either in PDF or ODF formats, the presence of which would be made obvious the first time you opened the suite.

a)  I'd suggest both PDF and ODF formats.  The latter so that the user
c an add notes, documentation , etc that they (the individual) thinks
is necessary/useful.  The former, because it can be  read regardless
of platform, or wehther or not OOo has been installed;

b) I'd suggest a copy of all of the documentation that OOoAuthors has
produced, for that specific version of OOo. Since that documentation
lags behind OOo  releases, it might be more useful

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 15:54, Gene Young  wrote:

> In what way is the help "totally inadequate"?

a) Minor, but significant for the affected population groups:   Not
all localizations have translated the help file into the local
patoise.

b) Content is the help file is not applicable to the current version of OOo;

c) Functions in OOo are not described in the help file.

d)  Help files are not indexed by the expected word/phrase.  Ideally,
every word/phrase.concept  found in the help files, and./or
documentation for WordPerfect Office, MSO,  GnomeOffice, KOffice, Red
Office, GoogleOffice, and Symphony will be found in the help file,
with a cross reference to the OOo name;

jonathon

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[Uwe Fischer]

Hi,

On 10/04/09 23:08, jonathon wrote:
> Robert Derman wrote:
>
>> OOo should include a pair of manuals in the download package, either in PDF or ODF formats, the presence of which would be made obvious the first time you opened the suite.
>

I would not object in making the presence of the installed Help more
obvious. At presence, many users first refer to some mailing lists,
forums, or other sources to get help, and most often they will return a
"read the installed Help - it's all there what you're asking"

Users who don't find the installed Help will possibly not find the
enclosed manuals, too.

> a)  I'd suggest both PDF and ODF formats.  The latter so that the user
> c an add notes, documentation , etc that they (the individual) thinks
> is necessary/useful.  The former, because it can be  read regardless
> of platform, or wehther or not OOo has been installed;
>
> b) I'd suggest a copy of all of the documentation that OOoAuthors has
> produced, for that specific version of OOo. Since that documentation
> lags behind OOo  releases, it might be more useful
>

So what is wrong with the main documentation page at
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation
Everything you asked is there, and much more. And every user, including
yourself, can add to that information pool.


> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 15:54, Gene Young  wrote:
>
>>  In what way is the help "totally inadequate"?
>
> a) Minor, but significant for the affected population groups:   Not
> all localizations have translated the help file into the local
> patoise.
>
> b) Content is the help file is not applicable to the current version of OOo;


please give at least one example.

>
> c) Functions in OOo are not described in the help file.

see above

>
> d)  Help files are not indexed by the expected word/phrase.  Ideally,
> every word/phrase.concept  found in the help files, and./or
> documentation for WordPerfect Office, MSO,  GnomeOffice, KOffice, Red
> Office, GoogleOffice, and Symphony will be found in the help file,
> with a cross reference to the OOo name;
>

please provide a list, we will happily add that information to the
installed Help.


> jonathon
>
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Uwe
--
   ufi@...  -  Technical Writer
   StarOffice - Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Hamburg, Germany
   http://documentation.openoffice.org/
   http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation
   http://blogs.sun.com/oootnt
   http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum

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[Robert Derman-2]

Uwe Fischer wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 10/04/09 23:08, jonathon wrote:
>> Robert Derman wrote:
>>
>>> OOo should include a pair of manuals in the download package, either
>>> in PDF or ODF formats, the presence of which would be made obvious
>>> the first time you opened the suite.
>>
>
> I would not object in making the presence of the installed Help more
> obvious. At presence, many users first refer to some mailing lists,
> forums, or other sources to get help, and most often they will return
> a "read the installed Help - it's all there what you're asking"
>
> Users who don't find the installed Help will possibly not find the
> enclosed manuals, too.
>
>> a)  I'd suggest both PDF and ODF formats.  The latter so that the user
>> c an add notes, documentation , etc that they (the individual) thinks
>> is necessary/useful.  The former, because it can be  read regardless
>> of platform, or wehther or not OOo has been installed;
>>
>> b) I'd suggest a copy of all of the documentation that OOoAuthors has
>> produced, for that specific version of OOo. Since that documentation
>> lags behind OOo  releases, it might be more useful
>>
>
> So what is wrong with the main documentation page at
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation
> Everything you asked is there, and much more. And every user,
> including yourself, can add to that information pool.

You probably don't realize that with the average MS Windows user, If the
users manual(s) are not visible in a large font on the first screen they
ever see when they open the OOo suite for the first time, they will
never find them.  Even better, OOo should place a shortcut to them on
their desktop at the time of installation.

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[James E. Lang-3]

I am a big fan of OOo. My remarks below are not intended to be an attack on
anyone. I have included personal examples of problems I have had with the OOo
documentation. I suppose I am straying from the original topic. If so, I'm
truly sorry.

--On Monday, October 05, 2009 09:25:54 AM +0200 Uwe Fischer
<Uwe.Fischer@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 10/04/09 23:08, jonathon wrote:
>> Robert Derman wrote:
>>
>>> OOo should include a pair of manuals in the download package, either in PDF
>>> or ODF formats, the presence of which would be made obvious the first time
>>> you opened the suite.
>
> I would not object in making the presence of the installed Help more obvious.
> At present, many users first refer to some mailing lists, forums, or other
> sources to get help, and most often they will return a "read the installed
> Help - it's all there what you're asking"

The cited response on the lists antagonizes some people. We ask our question
because we cannot _find_ the information within the installed Help. It may well
be there but we don't all use the right magic words to look it up.

> Users who don't find the installed Help will possibly not find the enclosed
> manuals, too.

I find the installed Help just fine. It's just that I often don't find what I
need when I look there. I also find it near impossible to find specific
information that I need from any list or forum archives. I'm sure I'm not alone
so please be tolerant of people like me.

>> a)  I'd suggest both PDF and ODF formats.  The latter so that the user
>> can add notes, documentation , etc that they (the individual) thinks
>> is necessary/useful.

Personally useful, that is. The notes etc. may not be useful for everyone.

>> The former, because it can be  read regardless of platform, or wehther or
>> not OOo has been installed;

These ideas sound good. Some of the online documentation is available in these
formats. I'd also suggest adding "Manuals" or "Guides" to the menu bar or to
the installed Help menu to assist in accessing the files that Jonathon is
suggesting and also any online documentation.

>> b) I'd suggest a copy of all of the documentation that OOoAuthors has
>> produced, for that specific version of OOo. Since that documentation
>> lags behind OOo  releases, it might be more useful

Are you saying that the OOoAuthors documentation is more up to date? Where is
it to be found?

> So what is wrong with the main documentation page at
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation
> Everything you asked is there, and much more. And every user, including
> yourself, can add to that information pool.

I, for one, have no experience in updating a wiki page. I also would not rely
too strongly on a wiki page that I had updated. It would contain information
that I have learned by experience and it would be as accurate as I could make
it but we all think we have learned certain things that simply are not so.

I would also add that not all of us are as savvy as you are. Not knowing where
to look is a big part of the problem. As for myself, online manuals in the
format of the documents I have examined from the Documentation wiki are not
easily searched and therefor it is very frustrating to try to use them.

I concur that there is a lot of documentation available at the OOo web sites.
It just is not easily found or used by the novice user who needs it the most. I
also note that the Calc 3.x User Guide is "draft" and the Draw 3.x is "coming
soon." Part of the problem is, of course, that in particular in the open source
paradigm the "sexy" part is updating the code while the documentation is often
relegated to the status of the ignored step child. This is not just a problem
for OOo.

>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 15:54, Gene Young  wrote:
>>
>>>  In what way is the help "totally inadequate"?
>>
>> a) Minor, but significant for the affected population groups:   Not
>> all localizations have translated the help file into the local
>> patoise.

The online documentation is no better in this regard. It is stated to be
English language documentation.

>> b) Content is the help file is not applicable to the current version of OOo;

This should never be the case but unfortunately it is way too often. And I'm
not just speaking of OOo in this regard.

> please give at least one example.
>
>> c) Functions in OOo are not described in the help file.
>
> see above

I'm not sure what you mean by that response.

>> d)  Help files are not indexed by the expected word/phrase.

Documentation that has a table of contents and an index and that resides in a
single file or web page would be a significant improvement so that it can be
searched from end to end.

>> Ideally, every word/phrase.concept  found in the help files, and./or
>> documentation for WordPerfect Office, MSO,  GnomeOffice, KOffice, Red
>> Office, GoogleOffice, and Symphony will be found in the help file,
>> with a cross reference to the OOo name;

I'm sure that would be a major undertaking.

> please provide a list, we will happily add that information to the installed
> Help.

Again, the installed Help is only one tool for enhancing one's experience with
any product.

I possess different levels of expertise with various facets of OOo. As such I
need to use documentation differently. I'm sure I'm not the Lone Ranger in this
regard.

I have no idea what can be done with either Draw or Math.

Until I looked at the main documentation page referenced in your message, I had
no idea where to look to start learning how to construct an Impress "document."

I have used Writer to create simple text documents with fonts, columns, etc.
but if I were a student having to write a term paper with footnotes or
endnotes, or if I were an author trying to write a book or manual, I would not
know where to start. I also could not insert tables or illustrations in such
documents. I've seen help given on the users mailing list to people who are
trying to do these things and thought, "that's interesting," but the ones who
asked the questions were already so far ahead of me that I have no clue how to
get to the point where they are having their troubles.

On the other hand, I'm a relatively advanced user of Calc. In general, the
installed Help is all I need _now_ to utilize Calc though I recently learned
how to define print ranges which I had seen used but which were black magic to
me. I thought I was looking at protected fields instead of data that was
outside all print ranges. I still don't know how to write macros.

I still have no idea how to make use of OOo through the external application
interface (command line call with the ability to modify the contents of a
spreadsheet, for example, via a script and to direct OOo to print selected
parts of the data and to save the revised document). I don't even know the
right words to use to name this functionality that I know exists. Thus I can't
find information as to how to utilize it.

You may think I'm digressing but these are examples of the issue that I
understand is being discussed. Documentation needs to be upgraded by people who
_know_ the product. Going to the local Borders etc. or to Amazon for books
about OOo is a lost cause. But looking online is not a whole lot better.

Thank you for bearing with me.

--
Jim


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[Jonathon Blake]

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 07:25, Uwe Fischer wrote:

> So what is wrong with the main documentation page at
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation

Just like everything about the OOo project, it is hidden from those
who don't know that what they want exists.

> Everything you asked is there, and much more. And every user, including yourself, can add to that information pool.

If, by  "that information  pool", you meant the aforementioned wiki,
what is the  point of adding something to that, when the user for whom
it is written will not find it?

>> b) Content is the help file is not applicable to the current version of OOo;
> please give at least one example.

The languages it defines as "supported CTL Languages".
(I just realized that 3.0.1 doesn't include the Hiragana <-> Kanji convertor. )

>> c) Functions in OOo are not described in the help file.
> see above

BiDi is the obvious one.

On second thoughts, a massive failure, on the order of being a show
stopping bug,  is the question to which the answer is:
* Here are the instructions on installing the requisite dictionaries;
* Here are the instructions on how to convert your text to the
language that those dictionaries use;

Koine Greek, Middle English, and most African languages, require CTL
to be enabled. You won't find a hint of that, much less why, in the
help file.

jonathon

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[Bernhard Dippold-2]

Hi Jonathon, *

jonathon schrieb:
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 07:25, Uwe Fischer wrote:
>
>> So what is wrong with the main documentation page at
>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation
>
> Just like everything about the OOo project, it is hidden from those
> who don't know that what they want exists.

Just like everything about the OOo project it can be improved by the
people knowing about it's back-drafts...
>
>> Everything you asked is there, and much more. And every user, including yourself, can add to that information pool.
>
> If, by  "that information  pool", you meant the aforementioned wiki,
> what is the  point of adding something to that, when the user for whom
> it is written will not find it?

There are several ways to reach the wiki. If you know any better one,
please add it...

A user needs help on a certain topic and doesn't find the right answer
in the online help.

Is it too hard for him to imagine, that the "Support" entry in the
"Help" tab might be the place to click on?

If he does so, a page of the online help opens, titled "Getting
Support". The second phrase is: "You can find support on the
OpenOffice.org website at [link:]support.openoffice.org."

Just click on the link and you'll be able to find different ways of
support. I'd prefer free support, but others might think different.

So I click on the first link on that page "free community support", and
find myself on a table of possible ways to get support. If I prefer the
forum, I'll click on the relevant link, for written documentation I'm
linked to the documentation project homepage
http://documentation.openoffice.org.

Perhaps this might be a bit tricky for a new user, so an optimized
wording (including "FAQ", "Wiki" ...) could be helpful (BTW: The link to
Issue Tracker is too prominent here, IMHO), but if you look for help and
read "help guides", you might find the right link to click on.

Once at the documentation homepage you need a monitor with a larger
height than 600px, otherwise you'll have to scroll until you find the
first entry after the project's mission:

"Search Documentation" with a direct (google-)search inside the
documentation wiki and "Browse Documentation" linking to the
Documentation Wiki start page.

You can reach the Documentation Project start page on several ways (from
the main OOo page http://www.openoffice.org it's nearly the same as from
the online help) so "hidden" might not be the right word.

Of course it needs to read some phrases and to follow four links from
the application to reach the wiki. But as nobody can know the users
preferences in getting support, he has to do some decisions on his own.

Best regards

Bernhard

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