MyFaces

[kito99]

So, here's a question. I know originally some people on the MyFaces team
thought that Shale should be part of MyFaces. At the time, I know Craig
wasn't interested. However, things have changed, and I think Shale could
really benefit from the MyFaces community, especially since they are now
starting to duplicate some of Shale's functionality (i.e. Orchestra's View
Controller).

 

Thoughts?

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kito D. Mann - Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
 <http://www.virtua.com/> http://www.virtua.com - JSF/Java EE consulting,
training, and mentoring
 <http://www.jsfcentral.com/> http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces
FAQ, news, and info



 

[Mario Ivankovits]

Kito D. Mann schrieb:
> So, here's a question. I know originally some people on the MyFaces team
> thought that Shale should be part of MyFaces. At the time, I know Craig
> wasn't interested. However, things have changed, and I think Shale could
> really benefit from the MyFaces community, especially since they are now
> starting to duplicate some of Shale's functionality (i.e. Orchestra's View
> Controller).
>  
I think this is a great idea.

I always loved the idea that MyFaces is the umbrella project for JSF
activities at Apache.

Ciao,
Mario

[Antonio Petrelli-3]

2007/10/18, Mario Ivankovits <mario@...>:
> I always loved the idea that MyFaces is the umbrella project for JSF
> activities at Apache.

The problem is that Apache does not like umbrella project at all :-)
You might remember when Shale was under the "Struts" umbrella, and
then migrated to be on its own.
I think that Shale should remain on its own, also because it contains
products that don't need JSF at all (I am thinking of shale-test).

Antonio

[mario.buonopane]

What is an umbrella project?

Ciao, Mario

-----Original Message-----
From: Mario Ivankovits [mailto:mario@...]
Sent: 18 ottobre 2007 07.40
To: dev@...
Cc: user@...
Subject: Re: MyFaces

Kito D. Mann schrieb:
> So, here's a question. I know originally some people on the MyFaces
team
> thought that Shale should be part of MyFaces. At the time, I know
Craig
> wasn't interested. However, things have changed, and I think Shale
could
> really benefit from the MyFaces community, especially since they are
now
> starting to duplicate some of Shale's functionality (i.e. Orchestra's
View
> Controller).
>  
I think this is a great idea.

I always loved the idea that MyFaces is the umbrella project for JSF
activities at Apache.

Ciao,
Mario



This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information.  If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original.  Any other use of the email by you is prohibited.

[Antonio Petrelli-3]

2007/10/18, mario.buonopane@... <mario.buonopane@...>:
>
> What is an umbrella project?



An umbrella project is a project that, under the same "brand" collects
several projects that have something in common. For example, Jakarta and
Commons projects are umbrella projects.

Antonio

[Mario Ivankovits]

Hi!
> You might remember when Shale was under the "Struts" umbrella, and
> then migrated to be on its own.
>  
Yes, but due to the focus change to JSF it simply didn't fit in Struts
anymore, no?

> I think that Shale should remain on its own, also because it contains
> products that don't need JSF at all (I am thinking of shale-test).
>  
I don't know shale-test, but isn't it to provide mock object for the JSF
api? If it is more, maybe it fits into Commons land?

In MyFaces land the need for a commons project rises up every now and
then - instead, it might be easier to contribute to a MyFaces Shale
subproject.
Also the ML of Shale has become quite quiet, wouldn't it be better to
concentrate the spare time of JSF developers@apache into one TLP?


But well, just thoughts .....
(Pinged the MyFaces Developer List too, please reply to the shale dev ML
anyway)

Ciao,
Mario

[Antonio Petrelli-3]

2007/10/18, Mario Ivankovits <mario@...>:
> Hi!
> > You might remember when Shale was under the "Struts" umbrella, and
> > then migrated to be on its own.
> >
> Yes, but due to the focus change to JSF it simply didn't fit in Struts
> anymore, no?

Right, but Shale parted from Struts because it was a completely new
project, not because of its focus.

> > I think that Shale should remain on its own, also because it contains
> > products that don't need JSF at all (I am thinking of shale-test).
> >
> I don't know shale-test, but isn't it to provide mock object for the JSF
> api? If it is more, maybe it fits into Commons land?

In fact, part of the shale-test seems like "Cactus" (it contains mock
objects also for portlets and servlets). Moving to Commons (or
Jakarta?) could be a good option.

> In MyFaces land the need for a commons project rises up every now and
> then - instead, it might be easier to contribute to a MyFaces Shale
> subproject.

And probably it reduces replication: for example, it seems that Shale
provides a buggy Tiles 2 support, while the MyFaces one at least works
:-)
In this case there is a need for reorganization:
- move shale-test to Commons;
- choose which Shale pieces will remain under Shale subproject, and
which ones will become submodules of MyFaces itself (I am thinking of
Clay).

> Also the ML of Shale has become quite quiet, wouldn't it be better to
> concentrate the spare time of JSF developers@apache into one TLP?

You convinced me! :-) But I am not a Shale developer, so I cannot do much.

Antonio

[Kailas Lovlekar-2]

I quite like this idea. This would eliminate duplication but the biggest
advantage I see for project Shale is opportunity to get into the
mainstream.
Kailas
-----Original Message-----
From: Kito D. Mann [mailto:kmann@...]
Sent: 17 October 2007 22:12
To: user@...; dev@...
Subject: MyFaces


So, here's a question. I know originally some people on the MyFaces team
thought that Shale should be part of MyFaces. At the time, I know Craig
wasn't interested. However, things have changed, and I think Shale could
really benefit from the MyFaces community, especially since they are now
starting to duplicate some of Shale's functionality (i.e. Orchestra's
View Controller).

 

Thoughts?

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kito D. Mann - Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
<http://www.virtua.com/> http://www.virtua.com - JSF/Java EE consulting,
training, and mentoring  <http://www.jsfcentral.com/>
http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info



 


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[Kailas Lovlekar]

I quite like this idea. This would eliminate duplication but the biggest
advantage I see for project Shale is opportunity to get into the
mainstream.
Kailas

-----Original Message-----
From: Kito D. Mann [mailto:kmann@...]
Sent: 17 October 2007 22:12
To: user@...; dev@...
Subject: MyFaces


So, here's a question. I know originally some people on the MyFaces team
thought that Shale should be part of MyFaces. At the time, I know Craig
wasn't interested. However, things have changed, and I think Shale could
really benefit from the MyFaces community, especially since they are now
starting to duplicate some of Shale's functionality (i.e. Orchestra's
View Controller).

 

Thoughts?

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kito D. Mann - Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
<http://www.virtua.com/> http://www.virtua.com - JSF/Java EE consulting,
training, and mentoring  <http://www.jsfcentral.com/>
http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info



 


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release Date:
14/10/2007 09:22
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release Date:
14/10/2007 09:22
 


       
       
               
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[Niall Pemberton-2]

On 10/18/07, Antonio Petrelli <antonio.petrelli@...> wrote:
> 2007/10/18, Mario Ivankovits <mario@...>:
> > I always loved the idea that MyFaces is the umbrella project for JSF
> > activities at Apache.
>
> The problem is that Apache does not like umbrella project at all :-)
> You might remember when Shale was under the "Struts" umbrella, and
> then migrated to be on its own.

From my memory "umbrella" was never the primary reason for Shale
moving from Struts. It perhaps could have been, but the Shale devs
took the decision to go TLP for Shale's benefit.

Also IMO this is not an "umbrella" situation which from my PoV is when
unrelated code bases and developers are grouped together. This is more
of a "related "sub-project" situation and there are already developers
in common between Shale and MyFaces.

Its a decision for the two PMCs - but if they agree that its good for
both projects, then I don't think there are any other factors which
would prevent it.

> I think that Shale should remain on its own, also because it contains
> products that don't need JSF at all (I am thinking of shale-test).

It does depend on JSF - for example: http://tinyurl.com/ypxab2

Niall

> Antonio

[samju]

So Mr. Kito, need a answer. Wich kind of things have changed? Why is it so quiet around Shale? What is the Problem with Shale? does Shale still a modern web application framework?

PL please give a declaration.

Sam

kito99 wrote:

So, here's a question. I know originally some people on the MyFaces team
thought that Shale should be part of MyFaces. At the time, I know Craig
wasn't interested. However, things have changed, and I think Shale could
really benefit from the MyFaces community, especially since they are now
starting to duplicate some of Shale's functionality (i.e. Orchestra's View
Controller).

 

Thoughts?

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kito D. Mann - Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
 <http://www.virtua.com/> http://www.virtua.com - JSF/Java EE consulting,
training, and mentoring
 <http://www.jsfcentral.com/> http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces
FAQ, news, and info



 

[jmitchell]

I apologize for my lack of attention here.  I've been pulled in very  
different directions over the last year and I'm currently doing  
Struts 2 and RoR work so my involvement is at 0% right now.



--
James Mitchell



On Oct 19, 2007, at 10:23 AM, samju wrote:

>
> So Mr. Kito, need a answer. Wich kind of things have changed? Why  
> is it so
> quiet around Shale? What is the Problem with Shale? does Shale still a
> modern web application framework?
>
> PL please give a declaration.
>
> Sam
>
>
> kito99 wrote:
>>
>> So, here's a question. I know originally some people on the  
>> MyFaces team
>> thought that Shale should be part of MyFaces. At the time, I know  
>> Craig
>> wasn't interested. However, things have changed, and I think Shale  
>> could
>> really benefit from the MyFaces community, especially since they  
>> are now
>> starting to duplicate some of Shale's functionality (i.e.  
>> Orchestra's View
>> Controller).
>>
>>
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Kito D. Mann - Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
>>  <http://www.virtua.com/> http://www.virtua.com - JSF/Java EE  
>> consulting,
>> training, and mentoring
>>  <http://www.jsfcentral.com/> http://www.JSFCentral.com -  
>> JavaServer Faces
>> FAQ, news, and info
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/MyFaces- 
> tf4643427.html#a13295601
> Sent from the Shale - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

[Gary%20VanMatre]

>From: samju <julsamusa@...>
>
>
> So Mr. Kito, need a answer. Wich kind of things have changed? Why is it so
> quiet around Shale? What is the Problem with Shale? does Shale still a
> modern web application framework?
>
> PL please give a declaration.
>

I see two issues here.  The first is that the shale volunteers have been distracted with life events.  I personally have been consumed with a new job trying to catch up on two years of product development and have not made time to participate.
 
The second issue is that JSF is starting to mature. The third JSF specification is in the works.  Some of the Shale ideas will make their way into the JSF 2 specification others could also "standardize" by merging two similar implementations.
 
I would be supportive of a merger with Myfaces for these two reasons.



> Sam
>

Gary
 

>
> kito99 wrote:
> >
> > So, here's a question. I know originally some people on the MyFaces team
> > thought that Shale should be part of MyFaces. At the time, I know Craig
> > wasn't interested. However, things have changed, and I think Shale could
> > really benefit from the MyFaces community, especially since they are now
> > starting to duplicate some of Shale's functionality (i.e. Orchestra's View
> > Controller).
> >
> >
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Kito D. Mann - Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
> > http://www.virtua.com - JSF/Java EE consulting,
> > training, and mentoring
> > http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces
> > FAQ, news, and info
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/MyFaces-tf4643427.html#a13295601 
> Sent from the Shale - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

[kito99]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: samju [mailto:julsamusa@...]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 10:23 AM
> To: dev@...
> Subject: Re: MyFaces
>
>
> So Mr. Kito, need a answer. Wich kind of things have changed? Why is it
> so
> quiet around Shale? What is the Problem with Shale? does Shale still a
> modern web application framework?
>
> PL please give a declaration.

Well, Shale is more of a collection of services for JSF apps as opposed to a
full-fledged framework. It has a lot of useful features, however, and I
generally recommend it for people for whom JBoss Seam isn't a good fit.

Regardless, the point is that there's a lot of good code here and very
little activity from the committers (as Gary mentioned). The MyFaces
community is a lot more active, and I think moving Shale there has a better
chance of ensuring that some of this functionality doesn't get stale.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kito D. Mann - Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
http://www.virtua.com - JSF/Java EE consulting, training, and mentoring
http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info

[Wendy Smoak-3]

On 10/20/07, Craig McClanahan <craigmcc@...> wrote:

> FWIW, I am supportive of the "merge into MyFaces" idea, if the MyFaces
> community is interested.

Works for me... I'm mostly here for infrastructure, so it doesn't
matter where the code lives. :)

I suppose this is going to need a board resolution to dissolve the PMC...

--
Wendy

[samju]

Thanks for your Feedback! i can live with the fact that Shale will get a better chance at the MyFaces project. actually i had a good experience using MyFaces and Shale together.
it is a little ironic: "Shale on the search of a new home, From Struts to MyFaces" this will be my next book.

Sam

kito99 wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: samju [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 10:23 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MyFaces
>
>
> So Mr. Kito, need a answer. Wich kind of things have changed? Why is it
> so
> quiet around Shale? What is the Problem with Shale? does Shale still a
> modern web application framework?
>
> PL please give a declaration.

Well, Shale is more of a collection of services for JSF apps as opposed to a
full-fledged framework. It has a lot of useful features, however, and I
generally recommend it for people for whom JBoss Seam isn't a good fit.

Regardless, the point is that there's a lot of good code here and very
little activity from the committers (as Gary mentioned). The MyFaces
community is a lot more active, and I think moving Shale there has a better
chance of ensuring that some of this functionality doesn't get stale.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kito D. Mann - Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
http://www.virtua.com - JSF/Java EE consulting, training, and mentoring
http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info

[Ryan Wynn-2]

Having worked with both together for the past year I think combining
shale and myfaces would be a good thing.  I have alot invested in
both, my team having just finished a large production system.  I think
clay is underrated and I would hate to see it dropped completely in
favor of facelets.  Clay's inheritance features have saved us alot of
work, and I don't see facelets supporting this feature.  Also, my team
has been able to encapsulate many of our common application fragments
using clay (1).  Not sure if this could have been accomplished as
easily using facelets.

(1) http://wiki.apache.org/shale/ReusableClayJars

[Matthias Wessendorf-4]

Hey Ryan,

nice to hear. Any "public" reference for that ?

-M

On 10/21/07, Ryan Wynn <bigwynnr@...> wrote:

> Having worked with both together for the past year I think combining
> shale and myfaces would be a good thing.  I have alot invested in
> both, my team having just finished a large production system.  I think
> clay is underrated and I would hate to see it dropped completely in
> favor of facelets.  Clay's inheritance features have saved us alot of
> work, and I don't see facelets supporting this feature.  Also, my team
> has been able to encapsulate many of our common application fragments
> using clay (1).  Not sure if this could have been accomplished as
> easily using facelets.
>
> (1) http://wiki.apache.org/shale/ReusableClayJars
>

--
Matthias Wessendorf

further stuff:
blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/
mail: matzew-at-apache-dot-org

[Ryan Wynn-2]

On 10/22/07, Matthias Wessendorf <matzew@...> wrote:
> Hey Ryan,
>
> nice to hear. Any "public" reference for that ?


Hi Matthias,

Unfortunately it's one of those private gov web sites.  So you won't
really be able to get a feel for it.  But it is a very large websphere
portal site.  Of the approx 50 portlets inside the portal we have
built/converted 38 using myfaces and shale.

Ryan

>
> -M
>
> On 10/21/07, Ryan Wynn <bigwynnr@...> wrote:
> > Having worked with both together for the past year I think combining
> > shale and myfaces would be a good thing.  I have alot invested in
> > both, my team having just finished a large production system.  I think
> > clay is underrated and I would hate to see it dropped completely in
> > favor of facelets.  Clay's inheritance features have saved us alot of
> > work, and I don't see facelets supporting this feature.  Also, my team
> > has been able to encapsulate many of our common application fragments
> > using clay (1).  Not sure if this could have been accomplished as
> > easily using facelets.
> >
> > (1) http://wiki.apache.org/shale/ReusableClayJars
> >
>
>
> --
> Matthias Wessendorf
>
> further stuff:
> blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/
> mail: matzew-at-apache-dot-org
>

[kito99]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: craigmcc@... [mailto:craigmcc@...] On Behalf Of Craig
> McClanahan
> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 6:18 AM
> To: user@...; kmann@...
> Subject: Re: MyFaces
>
> PS:  I feel the need to add a personal note here, just so everyone is
> aware of where I am investing my own  time (both for-pay and
> volunteer).  My current "day job" project is a *very* large scale web
> 2.0 type application (it'll definitely be open sourced eventually; I'm
> pretty ticked that I can't talk about it in detail now), and we're
> doing the front end with Ruby on Rails.  As it stands now, I very much
> like developing webapps with RoR, and am not likely to spend a lot of
> time on Shale myself.  From that perspective, migrating Shale into
> MyFaces makes more sense than letting it (continue to) atrophy like it
> is at the moment, simply because I have spent the last 9 months or so
> enjoying RoR so much that I'm not particularly interested in spending
> my personal time on Java related frameworks :-).

Craig, I'm glad you're enjoying working with Rails, but I don't see Shale
and JSF as "Java related frameworks" if you're willing to integrate them
with scripting languages (such as Ruby or Groovy) on the JVM. It seems to me
that might be more of a logical focus.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kito D. Mann - Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
http://www.virtua.com - JSF/Java EE consulting, training, and mentoring
http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info