Nabble - NPEmap - Talk

NPEmap down this evening

2009-07-21T08:46:08Z

The NPEmap web site, and this mailing list, will be unavailable this
evening between about 6pm and 8pm BST, owing to some hardware
maintenance.

Cheers,
Dominic.

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Re: Source field in fulllist

2009-05-21T00:49:24Z

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 06:52:17PM +0100, chris.cowley@... wrote:
> On 19 May 2009 18:09, Dominic Hargreaves wrote:
>
> >Perl was upgraded from 5.8 to 5.10 around then (along with various other
> >software upgrades) so I strongly suspect that as a cause.
> <snip>
>
> I'd have a look myself, but perl just looks like 1980s-style modem line
> noise to me...

I've fixed it.

"It seems that the new version of the DBI module returns an arrayref
rather than a textual prepresentation of a mysql array, so we need to
deref and join rather than the mess of regexes."

It should get better when all the exports run again.

David

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Re: Source field in fulllist

2009-05-20T10:52:17Z

On 19 May 2009 18:09, Dominic Hargreaves wrote:

>Perl was upgraded from 5.8 to 5.10 around then (along with various other
>software upgrades) so I strongly suspect that as a cause.
<snip>

I'd have a look myself, but perl just looks like 1980s-style modem line
noise to me...

Chris
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Re: Source field in fulllist

2009-05-19T10:09:28Z

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 02:05:21PM +0100, CHRIS.COWLEY@... wrote:
> As of 17th May, the source field in the downloadable fulllist of postcodes
> at:
>
> http://www.npemap.org.uk/data/fulllist
>
> ...seems to have gone awry. Where it used to list Dracos, Freethepostcode,
> etc, it now shows "ARRAY(0x????????)".

Perl was upgraded from 5.8 to 5.10 around then (along with various other
software upgrades) so I strongly suspect that as a cause.

Nick, David, can you spot the error? I probably won't have time this
week.

Everyone else - code is in

https://urchin.earth.li/svn/npemap/trunk/npemap.org.uk/

and the script in question is

https://urchin.earth.li/svn/npemap/trunk/npemap.org.uk/scripts/exporter/export.pl

;)

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Source field in fulllist

2009-05-19T06:05:21Z

Hi,

As of 17th May, the source field in the downloadable fulllist of postcodes
at:

http://www.npemap.org.uk/data/fulllist

...seems to have gone awry. Where it used to list Dracos, Freethepostcode,
etc, it now shows "ARRAY(0x????????)".

Cheers,
Chris.
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Grok Developments Ltd

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Re: OSM and postcodes

2009-02-12T04:02:14Z

2009/2/7 Dominic Hargreaves <dom@...>:

> On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 02:37:17AM -0800, Alex Hunter wrote:
>> I am a keen enthusiast for NPE maps and Free the postcode etc.
>>
>> However, I frequently find that it is difficult to locate a point on NPE
>> maps, especially where an area has been redeveloped or was a green field in
>> the 1940s.
>>
>> Is there any scope for collaborating with OSM to enable the recording of
>> postcodes directly onto OSM?
>
> Currently we are unable to derive postcode data from OSM: see our FAQ

There are other options. You could add the postcode to OSM, or you
could help locate postboxes [1]

Russ

[1] http://www.dracos.co.uk/play/locating-postboxes/

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Re: OSM and postcodes

2009-02-07T03:55:45Z

On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 02:37:17AM -0800, Alex Hunter wrote:
> I am a keen enthusiast for NPE maps and Free the postcode etc.
>
> However, I frequently find that it is difficult to locate a point on NPE
> maps, especially where an area has been redeveloped or was a green field in
> the 1940s.
>
> Is there any scope for collaborating with OSM to enable the recording of
> postcodes directly onto OSM?

Currently we are unable to derive postcode data from OSM: see our FAQ
for full details:

<http://www.npemap.org.uk/FAQ.html#openstreetmap>

Dominic.

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OSM and postcodes

2009-02-03T02:37:16Z

I am a keen enthusiast for NPE maps and Free the postcode etc.

However, I frequently find that it is difficult to locate a point on NPE maps, especially where an area has been redeveloped or was a green field in the 1940s.

Is there any scope for collaborating with OSM to enable the recording of postcodes directly onto OSM?

Re: Postcodes & copyright

2009-01-26T04:01:56Z

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009, Russ Phillips wrote:
> I have a question. I like the efforts made to collect postcode data by
> NPE and Free the Postcode, and have contributed data to all three
> projects. However, I don't understand why collecting postcode data
> through sites like NPE and Free the Postcode is not infringing Royal
> Mail's copyright.

Our understanding is that you can't copyright a single postcode. You can,
however, claim a similar bit of IP rights (database rights) over a
collection of postcodes

If you extract a bunch of postcodes + lat + long combinations from
codepoint, or even if lots of people each extract one set, then you're
infringing on the RM database rights on the collection. If you were to
extract out a long list of postcodes, but not lat + long, from one of the
RM databases, then again you're infringing on DB rights.

However, taking one postcode (with no other data), and work out its
position yourself, there is no extraction from the RM database, so no
infringement.

Nick

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Postcodes & copyright

2009-01-26T03:37:27Z

I have a question. I like the efforts made to collect postcode data by
NPE and Free the Postcode, and have contributed data to all three
projects. However, I don't understand why collecting postcode data
through sites like NPE and Free the Postcode is not infringing Royal
Mail's copyright. When I added my postcode to Free the Postcode, the
co-ordinates came from my GPS, and I got the postcode from the
previous owners, but it must ultimately have come from the Royal Mail.

I don't understand why I did not violate the Royal Mail's copyright,
but why getting the postcodes from OSM & search engines (as was
previously suggested) would violate copyright.

Can anyone explain the difference?

Russ

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Re: Using OSM and search engines to find postcodes

2009-01-23T10:59:11Z

I've given this some more thought and have a safer idea. Contact hand
edited, paid for business directories and ask for permission to search
their sites for post codes. Then stick all these into a custom google
search engine and give osm users some web interface to it using
googles ajax api (rather than search bots which are against google's
terms).
Finally, get osm to implement some user level tag that says 'my edits
are public domain' and import only the ways made by these
contributors.
Rather long winded, but as far as i can see legal and certainly
achievable given enough time

On 1/22/09, Dominic Hargreaves <dom@...> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 03:11:03AM -0800, bitplane wrote:
>> OpenStreetMap has tons of road names, those road names exist within some
>> town, the town exists within a county. If we search the web for "road
>> name,
>> town name, county, " and then read and validate the next few characters
>> from
>> the search result we can find every postcode that has a business on it,
>> without infringing on Royal Mail's database rights.
>>
>> By using the mean location of the waypoints along the road, we have an
>> approximate GPS location.
>>
>> Does this sound feasible, and legal?
>
> Nope, we can't do this - it is infringing on RM's rights in just the
> same way as if we'd copied the data directly from the PAF, and we don't
> want to run the risk of polluting our database with data gained in this
> way. This is why we're using out of copyright maps as a basis for our
> collection.
>
> You're obfuscating the search method, but ultimately you're still
> programmatically extracting data from the PAF.
>
> Cheers,
> Dominic.
>
> --
> Dominic Hargreaves | http://www.larted.org.uk/~dom/
> PGP key 5178E2A5 from the.earth.li (keyserver,web,email)
>
>

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Re: Using OSM and search engines to find postcodes

2009-01-22T15:10:44Z

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 03:11:03AM -0800, bitplane wrote:

> OpenStreetMap has tons of road names, those road names exist within some
> town, the town exists within a county. If we search the web for "road name,
> town name, county, " and then read and validate the next few characters from
> the search result we can find every postcode that has a business on it,
> without infringing on Royal Mail's database rights.
>
> By using the mean location of the waypoints along the road, we have an
> approximate GPS location.
>
> Does this sound feasible, and legal?

Nope, we can't do this - it is infringing on RM's rights in just the
same way as if we'd copied the data directly from the PAF, and we don't
want to run the risk of polluting our database with data gained in this
way. This is why we're using out of copyright maps as a basis for our
collection.

You're obfuscating the search method, but ultimately you're still
programmatically extracting data from the PAF.

Cheers,
Dominic.

--
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Using OSM and search engines to find postcodes

2009-01-16T03:11:03Z

OpenStreetMap has tons of road names, those road names exist within some town, the town exists within a county. If we search the web for "road name, town name, county, " and then read and validate the next few characters from the search result we can find every postcode that has a business on it, without infringing on Royal Mail's database rights.

By using the mean location of the waypoints along the road, we have an approximate GPS location.

Does this sound feasible, and legal?

No difference between Currentlist and Fulllist

2008-11-15T09:40:18Z

Hi there,

The Currentlist and Fulllist downloads which are supposed to be with and without third party data respectively, appear to be identical at the moment.

Cheers, T.

Re: Postcode distribution plotter

2008-07-22T02:20:58Z

Quoting "Gavin Jamie" <gjamie@...>:

> Sorry. Error at the brain-finger interface
>
> feed.gpcontract.co.uk/cgi-bin/mapper.pl

That is rather nice. I have a kind-of similar thing at:
http://www.phillipsuk.org/osm/postcode.php

Although mine is more geared up to searching for postcodes.

Russ

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Re: Postcode distribution plotter

2008-07-22T00:34:35Z

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 08:22:47AM +0100, Gavin Jamie wrote:

> I posted a couple of months ago about the geocoder. Time
> ran away and I have at last got my (tiny) app together.
> The original version involved php, sed, sort, uniq and a
> web service. It was all starting to look a bit insane so I
> have learnt a little perl and changed the geocoder to work
> as a perl import (I would say module but it is a bit too
> lashed together for that).

Very cool to see people using our data (and a little scary!).
Don't forget that the source for all our code is available:

http://urchin.earth.li/pipermail/npemap-talk/2008-May/000013.html

and contributions are gratefully received.

Dominic.

--
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Re: Postcode distribution plotter

2008-07-22T00:28:43Z

Quoting "Gavin Jamie" <gjamie@...>:

<SNIP>
> http://feed.gpcontract.co.uk/mapper.pl
>
> Many thanks for all your work without which none of this
> would be possible.

Sounds cool, but I get a 404 error when trying to access that URL :-(

Russ

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Postcode distribution plotter

2008-07-22T00:22:47Z

Hi

I posted a couple of months ago about the geocoder. Time
ran away and I have at last got my (tiny) app together.
The original version involved php, sed, sort, uniq and a
web service. It was all starting to look a bit insane so I
have learnt a little perl and changed the geocoder to work
as a perl import (I would say module but it is a bit too
lashed together for that).

The reason behind all this is that I am a GP with about
9000 patients. We are thinking of a new surgery building
(well they are going to bulldoze the current one!) and it
was useful to know where our patients live when locating a
new building.

The postcodes are grouped by sector and a kml file
generated.

This is very basic at the moment. It is optimised for
working in a smallish area. It would be nice to have drill
down (group at the SN , SN1 , SN1 0 levels) and mash up
extra data (e.g. census information). However it may be
useful to other small business.

Spit and polish (e.g. a stylesheet! - custom icons showing
% in the kml etc etc) to follow. Probably slowly.

http://feed.gpcontract.co.uk/mapper.pl

Many thanks for all your work without which none of this
would be possible.

--
Gavin Jamie

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Re: Bulk geocoding requests

2008-05-31T12:00:23Z

On Tuesday 27 May 2008 23:06:06 you wrote:

> >
> > Dom - is svn open to all yet? If so, what's the public url?
>
> Just opened up at
>
> https://urchin.earth.li/svn/npemap/
>
> Dominic.

Many thanks guys. I have now got a working geocoder (after getting
dependencies and pointing the scripts to them - my ISP has a slightly unusual
setup)

Now at feed.gpcontract.co.uk/cgi-bin/geocoder.fcgi

Just to automate the process of grouping and coding postcodes now (which is
actually more a problem of getting the right data to the right requester than
any problem in the actual processing of the postcodes!

Gavin

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Re: Bulk geocoding requests

2008-05-27T15:06:06Z

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 09:21:06PM +0100, Nick Burch wrote:

> On Tue, 27 May 2008, Gavin Jamie wrote:
> > Is the geocoder available to download
>
> Yes, both the geocoder and a script to do nightly imports from the main
> site are available.
>
> The geocoder is cgi/geocoder.fgci, and the import script is in
> scripts/npemap-importer/importer.pl . You may also want
> scripts/freethepostcode.org-importer/importer.py to do a nightly import
> from freethepostcode.
>
> Dom - is svn open to all yet? If so, what's the public url?

Just opened up at

https://urchin.earth.li/svn/npemap/

Dominic.

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Re: Bulk geocoding requests

2008-05-27T13:21:06Z

On Tue, 27 May 2008, Gavin Jamie wrote:
> Is the geocoder available to download

Yes, both the geocoder and a script to do nightly imports from the main
site are available.

The geocoder is cgi/geocoder.fgci, and the import script is in
scripts/npemap-importer/importer.pl . You may also want
scripts/freethepostcode.org-importer/importer.py to do a nightly import
from freethepostcode.

Dom - is svn open to all yet? If so, what's the public url?

> and if so are there any hints for converting a fastcgi to daemon?

Your life would probably be easier if you kept it running as a cgi, but I
suspect someone has already written a perl module to wrap a fastcgi script
in a little pure-perl webserver. Anyone know of one?

Nick

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Bulk geocoding requests

2008-05-27T11:21:36Z

Hi

I have been doing a little project for my work where get a list of several
thousand postcodes, count up the number in each sector, geocode the sectors
and display the totals on a google map.

We only have local addresses so are using less than 20 sectors. The geocoder
on npemap.org.uk is very fast and this is easy.

I am thinking of making this a website open to all (FOSS etc etc). Clearly
there is some scope for quite a lot of geocoder load and a web api may not be
suitable any more - and the load on this server may become a bit too high in
short bursts.

Is the geocoder available to download, and if so are there any hints for
converting a fastcgi to daemon?

Many thanks

Gavin

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Reporting bad post codes

2008-04-16T01:05:17Z

I've just reported a handful of bad postcodes, but the process wasn't easy.

I found a whole cluster of CV1 codes, all close together but all miles out, somewhere near Kidderminster. The problem was that it was very difficult to keep track of which ones I'd reported and which ones I hadn't. I've almost certainly missed some, and probably reported some twice. It would be nice if codes that have been reported showed in a nice warning yellow or something.

Re: Postcodes outside normal distribution removed

2008-03-12T17:12:16Z

On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 10:25:11AM +0000, Grant Slater wrote:

> A few hundred incorrect "outliers" postcodes have been removed over the
> last few weeks, improving npemap's accuracy.
>
> OX1 and OX2 are now found in Oxford. ;-)
>
> My next step is likely outbound validation.
>
> Randomjunk's postcode map has also recently been updated:
> http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~random/postcodes/

I'd like to echo David's thanks for all the effort you've put in to help
us clean up the database.

In the spirit of being more open and enabling collaboration, we will be
opening up our subversion repository before long, and will be
encouraging people to improve our code too :)

Cheers,

Dominic.

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Re: Postcodes outside normal distribution removed

2008-03-12T03:55:10Z

On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 10:25:11AM +0000, Grant Slater wrote:
> NPEMap'ers
>
> A few hundred incorrect "outliers" postcodes have been removed over the
> last few weeks, improving npemap's accuracy.
>
> Randomjunk's postcode map has also recently been updated:
> http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~random/postcodes/

That's great, nice work. This map is exactly the sort of thing that I
was thinking of when I wanted to collect the postcodes in the first
place.

David

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Postcodes outside normal distribution removed

2008-03-12T03:25:11Z

NPEMap'ers

A few hundred incorrect "outliers" postcodes have been removed over the
last few weeks, improving npemap's accuracy.

OX1 and OX2 are now found in Oxford. ;-)

My next step is likely outbound validation.

Randomjunk's postcode map has also recently been updated:
http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~random/postcodes/

/ Grant

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Re: Marking / flagging incorrect entries

2007-12-15T07:42:46Z

The supported way of reporting a postcode bad is by clicking on it in
the interface and filling in the form. I initially thought that you
could try doing a POST to fill in the form. Unfortunately this
requires the ID of the postcode in our database and although you could
find that out from a bounding box request for where you think the
incorrect postcode is, it isn't ideal.

Clearly this is not manageable for large numbers of reports, so we
should probably have some sort of interface that could be scripted. We
have held back from producing an API as we want to be sure that people
have found a location by clicking on the map, so will definitely not
implement an API to insert a postcode, but having an API to report a
postcode as bad should be fine (unless it results in more work for us
in dealing with the reported postcodes).

More work on tools that we can run on the dataset would probably be
more useful, and to this end I think that we should make the code that
the site runs available to other people as we don't appear to have the
resources that we would like to work on the site. Then interested
parties such as yourself can work on improving the infrastructure
behind the site.

David

On Dec 8, 2007 10:58 PM, russellallen <russellatthevegmarket.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> I've recently found myself doing the same exercise as another poster on this
> thread to find potentially bogus entries - averaging postcodes per region
> and finding ones that are significantly outside where they belong.
>
> This raises a question though, let's say I believe these codes are suspect
> and so does everyone else (indeed I've checked one or two on other websites
> which use more "official" postcode data), should these codes be removed or
> at least marked somehow as bogus?
>
> If I'm going to use this data in a project of my own I could remove these
> entries having manually checked them, but then the data correction isn't
> being done in a shared way along with the data collection.
>
> What's the best way of setting a feedback mechanism like this up? If
> necessary I don't mind helping out?
>
> Russ
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Marking---flagging-incorrect-entries-tp14233507s26798p14233507.html
> Sent from the NPEmap - Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>

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Marking / flagging incorrect entries

2007-12-08T14:58:30Z

Hi all,

I've recently found myself doing the same exercise as another poster on this thread to find potentially bogus entries - averaging postcodes per region and finding ones that are significantly outside where they belong.

This raises a question though, let's say I believe these codes are suspect and so does everyone else (indeed I've checked one or two on other websites which use more "official" postcode data), should these codes be removed or at least marked somehow as bogus?

If I'm going to use this data in a project of my own I could remove these entries having manually checked them, but then the data correction isn't being done in a shared way along with the data collection.

What's the best way of setting a feedback mechanism like this up? If necessary I don't mind helping out?

Russ

Re: Std Dev - Finding Incorrect Entries

2007-12-04T04:38:29Z

I have amended the list. Fixed a sort error.

Updated:
http://code.firefishy.com/files/bad-postcodes.csv

Basic SQL notes:
http://code.firefishy.com/files/bad-postcodes-notes.txt

I believe these entries should be removed or at least marked as suspect
bad / incorrect entries.

/ Grant

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Std Dev - Finding Incorrect Entries

2007-12-04T00:40:11Z

npemap,

I have compiled a list of entries which vary greatly from their
outbound's standard deviation: (worst entries at the top)

http://code.firefishy.com/files/bad-postcodes.csv

I am no statistician. Please correct me if I am off the mark.

/ Grant

------------------------
SQL:

SELECT `postcodes`.`outward`, `postcodes`.`inward`, `postcodes`.`lat`,
`postcodes`.`long`,`outbound_stats`.*,
abs(`postcodes`.`lat`-`outbound_stats`.`lat_avg`) AS `lat_offset`,
abs(`postcodes`.`long`-`outbound_stats`.`long_avg`) AS `long_offset`
FROM `postcodes` LEFT JOIN `outbound_stats` ON `postcodes`.`outward` =
`outbound_stats`.`outward` WHERE `outbound_stats`.`number` >= 10 AND (
(abs(`postcodes`.`lat`-`outbound_stats`.`lat_avg`) +
abs(`postcodes`.`long`-`outbound_stats`.`long_avg`)) >
(`outbound_stats`.`lat_stddev`*3 + `outbound_stats`.`long_stddev`*3 ))
ORDER BY (`lat_offset`+`lat_offset`) DESC

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Re: checking for bad postcodes

2007-12-03T04:44:01Z

On Sun, Dec 02, 2007 at 01:39:41AM -0800, markdc wrote:

> You may have noted a spate of bad code reports north of Brighton from me last
> evening. As a new postcode mapper of - oh, about 3 minutes - I've been
> checking the data by using the postcode map at free the postcode:
>
> http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~random/postcodes/
>
> This uses the npe codes as well as free the postcode codes to produce a
> postcode map at, for exapmle, BN1 level. Bad codes show as unlikely or even
> crazy post code zones on the map. For example, islands of BN1 in BN5 zones
> and even of SP1 in BN. These seem to be bad postcodes on the NPEmap and
> I've reported them.

Yes, that's well-worth using. We also have some internal processes for
spotting these anomolies, which need a bit more work before we can
create really reliable datasets.

Cheers,

Dominic.

--
Dominic Hargreaves | http://www.larted.org.uk/~dom/
PGP key 5178E2A5 from the.earth.li (keyserver,web,email)

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checking for bad postcodes

2007-12-02T01:39:40Z

You may have noted a spate of bad code reports north of Brighton from me last evening. As a new postcode mapper of - oh, about 3 minutes - I've been checking the data by using the postcode map at free the postcode:

http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~random/postcodes/

This uses the npe codes as well as free the postcode codes to produce a postcode map at, for exapmle, BN1 level. Bad codes show as unlikely or even crazy post code zones on the map. For example, islands of BN1 in BN5 zones and even of SP1 in BN. These seem to be bad postcodes on the NPEmap and I've reported them.

Probably a well known method but useful. let me know if there is anything I can do.

Best wishes
Mark

Welcome

2007-09-16T10:17:09Z

Welcome to the new mailing list and forum for the npemap project - we
hope it will be an effective way for people to discuss their experiences
with the site.

Cheers,

Dominic.

--
Dominic Hargreaves | http://www.larted.org.uk/~dom/
PGP key 5178E2A5 from the.earth.li (keyserver,web,email)

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