Network Management to extragear/network

[Will Stephenson]

I'd like to propose that the Network Management stack
(libs,knetworkmanager,plasmoid) moves to extragear/network in time for KDE
4.4.  This way it's released but still has the schedule flexibility to react
to changes in NetworkManager and possibly other network management backend
systems.

Does anyone disagree with this?

Will
_______________________________________________
Kde-extra-gear mailing list
Kde-extra-gear@...
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-extra-gear

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 08:54:30 Will Stephenson wrote:

> I'd like to propose that the Network Management stack
> (libs,knetworkmanager,plasmoid) moves to extragear/network in time for KDE
> 4.4.  This way it's released but still has the schedule flexibility to
>  react to changes in NetworkManager and possibly other network management
>  backend systems.
>
> Does anyone disagree with this?
>
> Will
> _______________________________________________
> Kde-extra-gear mailing list
> Kde-extra-gear@...
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-extra-gear
>

Agreed

--
Helio Chissini de Castro
South America and Brazil Primary Contact
KDE Developer since 2002
_______________________________________________
Kde-extra-gear mailing list
Kde-extra-gear@...
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-extra-gear

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 11:54:30 Will Stephenson wrote:
> I'd like to propose that the Network Management stack
> (libs,knetworkmanager,plasmoid) moves to extragear/network in time for KDE
> 4.4.  This way it's released but still has the schedule flexibility to
>  react  to changes in NetworkManager and possibly other network management
>  backend systems.

The Plasmoid is not ready yet, and might not be in time for 4.4. It's also not easy
to split off. I'd not build it for now so we don't have people accidentally using it
and then wonder why it doesn't work. I hope I can get some substantial improvements
in in time for 4.4, but there's a good chance that it won't be ready. Having the
plasmoid separate would certainly not help development of it, but I'm happy with a
separate review of this piece of code when the time comes. I hope people are OK with
this modus operandi?

That said, the other components are good to go into 4.4. They're being released by at
least two distros in their standard install and Will has been fixing bugs left and
right to make it solid.

> Does anyone disagree with this?

I think it's a good idea. Maybe kdebase is even a better (I consider connecting to
networks basic functionality), but as you note, upstream (networkmanager, connman,
wicd, ...) might require intermediate releases. We could probably still do those,
even if we end up in kdebase, of course.
--
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9
_______________________________________________
Kde-extra-gear mailing list
Kde-extra-gear@...
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-extra-gear

[Ian Monroe-6]

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Sebastian Kügler <sebas@...> wrote:

> On Wednesday 04 November 2009 11:54:30 Will Stephenson wrote:
>> I'd like to propose that the Network Management stack
>> (libs,knetworkmanager,plasmoid) moves to extragear/network in time for KDE
>> 4.4.  This way it's released but still has the schedule flexibility to
>>  react  to changes in NetworkManager and possibly other network management
>>  backend systems.
>
> The Plasmoid is not ready yet, and might not be in time for 4.4. It's also not easy
> to split off. I'd not build it for now so we don't have people accidentally using it
> and then wonder why it doesn't work. I hope I can get some substantial improvements
> in in time for 4.4, but there's a good chance that it won't be ready. Having the
> plasmoid separate would certainly not help development of it, but I'm happy with a
> separate review of this piece of code when the time comes. I hope people are OK with
> this modus operandi?

I miss why moving to extragear means splitting anything up? Also not
wanting to release with 4.4 and have some more flexibility is a good
reason to be part of extragear. Its the whole point.

We shouldn't give any rule exceptions though, moving to extragear
means a 2 week stay in kdereview.

Ian
_______________________________________________
Kde-extra-gear mailing list
Kde-extra-gear@...
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-extra-gear

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 14:04:55 Ian Monroe wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Sebastian Kügler <sebas@...> wrote:
> > On Wednesday 04 November 2009 11:54:30 Will Stephenson wrote:
> >> I'd like to propose that the Network Management stack
> >> (libs,knetworkmanager,plasmoid) moves to extragear/network in time for
> >> KDE 4.4.  This way it's released but still has the schedule flexibility
> >> to react  to changes in NetworkManager and possibly other network
> >> management backend systems.
> >
> > The Plasmoid is not ready yet, and might not be in time for 4.4. It's
> > also not easy to split off. I'd not build it for now so we don't have
> > people accidentally using it and then wonder why it doesn't work. I hope
> > I can get some substantial improvements in in time for 4.4, but there's a
> > good chance that it won't be ready. Having the plasmoid separate would
> > certainly not help development of it, but I'm happy with a separate
> > review of this piece of code when the time comes. I hope people are OK
> > with this modus operandi?
>
> I miss why moving to extragear means splitting anything up? Also not
> wanting to release with 4.4 and have some more flexibility is a good
> reason to be part of extragear. Its the whole point.
>
> We shouldn't give any rule exceptions though, moving to extragear
> means a 2 week stay in kdereview.

I wasn't clear enough, sorry. :)

The whole networkmanager thing has two clients right now. A 'systray' (sorry,
statusnotifier!) based one, called knetworkmanager. This is a separate executable,
and pretty stable. It's also the one shipped with openSuse and Kubuntu (at least).
Then, there's the Plasmoid, which is more shiny, but also not quite finished.

Both clients are currently part of the networkmanager/ directory, which we'd like to
move into a released module for 4.4. They're making use of the same underlying
library to interact with networkmanager (and possibly other middleware stuff doing
the same, think of connman). So: underlying mechanisms are shared, there are two UIs.

As the plasmoid is not ready for consumption, it probably shouldn't end up on users'
systems, but I also wouldn't like to keep it separate since it's closely entangled
with the rest of networkmanager. The knetworkmanager thing on the other hand is IMO
close enough to release quality.

My proposal in more detail:

- move networkmanager/ to a released module (through usual kdereview process)
- exclude networkmanager/plasma for now, but keep it in the same location
- as soon as we feel confident enough about the plasmoid, we'll have it reviewed
  separately before it ends up in a release

For the NM plasmoid, I'm aiming at 4.5. Realistically, without additional manpower
the plasmoid won't be ready for 4.4.
--
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9
_______________________________________________
Kde-extra-gear mailing list
Kde-extra-gear@...
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-extra-gear

On November 4, 2009, Sebastian Kügler wrote:

> On Wednesday 04 November 2009 11:54:30 Will Stephenson wrote:
> > I'd like to propose that the Network Management stack
> > (libs,knetworkmanager,plasmoid) moves to extragear/network in time for
> > KDE 4.4.  This way it's released but still has the schedule flexibility
> > to react  to changes in NetworkManager and possibly other network
> > management backend systems.
>
> The Plasmoid is not ready yet, and might not be in time for 4.4. It's also
>  not easy to split off. I'd not build it for now so we don't have people
>  accidentally using it and then wonder why it doesn't work. I hope I can
>  get some substantial improvements in in time for 4.4, but there's a good
>  chance that it won't be ready.

can we get a short meeting on irc together to discuss what needs to be done
for 4.4? it's bordering on the ridiculous that we don't have this done 2 years
into kde 4 releases, so let's make it a priority, figure out what's needed and
then get the manpower on it.

> > Does anyone disagree with this?
>
> I think it's a good idea. Maybe kdebase is even a better (I consider
>  connecting to networks basic functionality), but as you note, upstream
>  (networkmanager, connman, wicd, ...) might require intermediate releases.
>  We could probably still do those, even if we end up in kdebase, of course.

yes, i don't see how being in kdebase means no interim releases.

--
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43

KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks


_______________________________________________
Kde-extra-gear mailing list
Kde-extra-gear@...
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-extra-gear

[Will Stephenson]

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 22:51:16 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> > I think it's a good idea. Maybe kdebase is even a better (I consider
> >  connecting to networks basic functionality), but as you note, upstream
> >  (networkmanager, connman, wicd, ...) might require intermediate
> > releases. We could probably still do those, even if we end up in kdebase,
> > of course.
>
> yes, i don't see how being in kdebase means no interim releases.
>
I'm against kdebase for several reasons.  I reject the trend to move
everything that might be construed as basic functionality to kdebase - KDE
works just fine without a NetworkManager,wicd,connman client on a desktop with
static networking, and on several other platforms which have their own
networkmanagement stacks.

No-one will ignore or not find KNM if it's in extragear.

And my experience was that Kopete moving to main modules at that point in its
lifecycle killed innovation.  If we did interim releases as well as kdebase
releases we'd always be competing with the main module releases, as well as
trying to figure out whether 'I use knetworkmanager on 4.3.3' in a BR meant
the copy shipped with 4.3.3 or a later interim release.

Will
_______________________________________________
Kde-extra-gear mailing list
Kde-extra-gear@...
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-extra-gear

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 22:51:16 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:

>   On November 4, 2009, Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > On Wednesday 04 November 2009 11:54:30 Will Stephenson wrote:
> > > I'd like to propose that the Network Management stack
> > > (libs,knetworkmanager,plasmoid) moves to extragear/network in time for
> > > KDE 4.4.  This way it's released but still has the schedule flexibility
> > > to react  to changes in NetworkManager and possibly other network
> > > management backend systems.
> >
> >
> > The Plasmoid is not ready yet, and might not be in time for 4.4. It's
> > also not easy to split off. I'd not build it for now so we don't have
> > people accidentally using it and then wonder why it doesn't work. I hope
> > I can get some substantial improvements in in time for 4.4, but there's a
> > good chance that it won't be ready.
>
> can we get a short meeting on irc together to discuss what needs to be
>  done  for 4.4? it's bordering on the ridiculous that we don't have this
>  done 2 years into kde 4 releases, so let's make it a priority, figure out
>  what's needed and then get the manpower on it.

I'd be in to make this a priority for 4.4 and will put work into it, prioritizing it
over other things.

How about we meet Friday night, maybe 1800 UTC? I can reserve the rest of the night
for hacking, so we get some immediate progress.
--
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9
_______________________________________________
Kde-extra-gear mailing list
Kde-extra-gear@...
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-extra-gear

On Thursday 05 November 2009 05:14:13 am Sebastian Kügler wrote:

> On Wednesday 04 November 2009 22:51:16 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> >   On November 4, 2009, Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 04 November 2009 11:54:30 Will Stephenson wrote:
> > > > I'd like to propose that the Network Management stack
> > > > (libs,knetworkmanager,plasmoid) moves to extragear/network in time
> > > > for KDE 4.4.  This way it's released but still has the schedule
> > > > flexibility to react  to changes in NetworkManager and possibly other
> > > > network management backend systems.
> > >
> > > The Plasmoid is not ready yet, and might not be in time for 4.4. It's
> > > also not easy to split off. I'd not build it for now so we don't have
> > > people accidentally using it and then wonder why it doesn't work. I
> > > hope I can get some substantial improvements in in time for 4.4, but
> > > there's a good chance that it won't be ready.
> >
> > can we get a short meeting on irc together to discuss what needs to be
> >  done  for 4.4? it's bordering on the ridiculous that we don't have this
> >  done 2 years into kde 4 releases, so let's make it a priority, figure
> > out what's needed and then get the manpower on it.
>
> I'd be in to make this a priority for 4.4 and will put work into it,
>  prioritizing it over other things.
>
> How about we meet Friday night, maybe 1800 UTC? I can reserve the rest of
>  the night for hacking, so we get some immediate progress.
>

I don't have any availability before 0200 UTC so if the meeting already
happened, I didn't make it. Are there logs somewhere I can read?
--
Matt
_______________________________________________
Kde-extra-gear mailing list
Kde-extra-gear@...
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-extra-gear

On Wednesday 11 November 2009 05:48:26 Matt Rogers wrote:
> > How about we meet Friday night, maybe 1800 UTC? I can reserve the rest of
> >  the night for hacking, so we get some immediate progress.
>
> I don't have any availability before 0200 UTC so if the meeting already
> happened, I didn't make it. Are there logs somewhere I can read?

I don't think we logged it, though we did progress quite well over the last weekend.
I'll be hacking on NM tomorrow night again, we could surely meet up on IRC, maybe
around 1900, UTC, #plasma?
--
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9
_______________________________________________
Kde-extra-gear mailing list
Kde-extra-gear@...
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-extra-gear