New: Perspectives on Accessibility

[Shawn Henry]

Dear WAI Interest Group Participants,

Along with the redesigned W3C website, we have a new Accessibility page that introduces the what, why, where, and how of web accessibility. Read what it says about how the impact of disabilities can be radically changed for people using the Web when websites, web technologies, and web tools are properly designed. See:
    Accessibility - W3C
    http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/accessibility

Feel free to circulate this message to other lists; please avoid cross-postings where possible.

Regards,

~Shawn Lawton Henry
WAI Outreach Coordinator, Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Chair


-----
Shawn Lawton Henry
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
e-mail: shawn@...
phone: [phone]
about: http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/

[Phill Jenkins]

OK,
I like the discussion, we just need more pictures to explain it and not so much text.  

I was reviewing the site with a large retailer's Web development team and they immediately commented about how much TEXT was on the pages and they couldn't just get the jist by seeing the high-level picture first.  They told me its kind of like shopping - you want to know if you are looking for shoes or furniture - then drill down to the size and dimensions.  Maybe we could learn from retailers on how they "sell their stuff" -  which is one aspect of the business we are in - selling accessibility - so to speak.

Regards,
Phill Jenkins,

Shawn Henry <shawn@...>
Sent by: w3c-wai-ig-request@...

10/14/2009 03:30 PM

To	WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@...>
cc
Subject	New: Perspectives on Accessibility

Dear WAI Interest Group Participants,

Along with the redesigned W3C website, we have a new Accessibility page that introduces the what, why, where, and how of web accessibility. Read what it says about how the impact of disabilities can be radically changed for people using the Web when websites, web technologies, and web tools are properly designed. See:
   Accessibility - W3C
   http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/accessibility

Feel free to circulate this message to other lists; please avoid cross-postings where possible.

Regards,

~Shawn Lawton Henry
WAI Outreach Coordinator, Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Chair


-----
Shawn Lawton Henry
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
e-mail: shawn@...
phone: [phone]
about: http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/

[Shawn Henry]

Thanks for the feedback, Phill.

Of course it's easy to have relevant pictures for a shopping website. A high-level picture to convey the gist of web accessibility is challenging - especially when considering the range of disabilities and the approach that EOWG wanted to take with this page.

We'll talk about this some more in the WAI Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG). Ideas welcome!

~Shawn



Phill Jenkins wrote:

>
> OK,
> I like the discussion, we just need more pictures to explain it and not
> so much text.  
>
> I was reviewing the site with a large retailer's Web development team
> and they immediately commented about how much TEXT was on the pages and
> they couldn't just get the jist by seeing the high-level picture first.
>  They told me its kind of like shopping - you want to know if you are
> looking for shoes or furniture - then drill down to the size and
> dimensions.  Maybe we could learn from retailers on how they "sell their
> stuff" -  which is one aspect of the business we are in - selling
> accessibility - so to speak.
>
> Regards,
> Phill Jenkins,
>
>
>
> *Shawn Henry <shawn@...>*
> Sent by: w3c-wai-ig-request@...
>
> 10/14/2009 03:30 PM
>
>
> To
> WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@...>
> cc
>
> Subject
> New: Perspectives on Accessibility
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear WAI Interest Group Participants,
>
> Along with the redesigned W3C website, we have a new Accessibility page
> that introduces the what, why, where, and how of web accessibility. Read
> what it says about how the impact of disabilities can be radically
> changed for people using the Web when websites, web technologies, and
> web tools are properly designed. See:
>    Accessibility - W3C
>    http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/accessibility
>
> Feel free to circulate this message to other lists; please avoid
> cross-postings where possible.
>
> Regards,
>
> ~Shawn Lawton Henry
> WAI Outreach Coordinator, Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Chair
>
>
> -----
> Shawn Lawton Henry
> W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> e-mail: shawn@...
> phone: [phone]
> about: http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/
>
>
>
>
>

[Roger Hudson-2]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

I agree the new look is better and easier to use, but like Phil I think it would be good if it didn’t rely so much on text.

 

Not only pictures I would like to suggest the use of videos and animation. I can’t believe how many people have contacted me about the video I did a while ago showing Bruce Maguire using a refreshable Braille device (http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/refreshable-braille-and-the-web/ . Many people said they really liked seeing the Braille machine being used for a real task like buying a book rather than only having someone just demonstrating it. I am hoping to do something similar with a screen magnifier in the near future and other ATs after that.

 

I think it would be great if the WAI site could have videos of people with disabilities using the web for everyday things – shopping, playing online games, booking tickets etc. Maybe also some videos of people struggling with things like CAPTCHA or some of the new interactive social networking sites/tools (or maybe not?)

 

Regards

 

Roger

 

Roger Hudson

Web Usability

Ph: 02 9568 1535

Mb: 0405 320 014

Email: rhudson@...

Web: www.usability.com.au

Blog: www.dingoaccess.com  

 

Freezer 31: Sky goes to dinner at her parents’ house and has a surprising encounter with her uncle, Elliott Price.

http://www.dingoaccess.com/freezer/freezer-ep-31-dinner-with-uncle-elliott/

 

---

From: w3c-wai-ig-request@... [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@...] On Behalf Of Phill Jenkins
Sent: Tuesday, 20 October 2009 3:55 AM
To: WAI Interest Group
Subject: Re: New: Perspectives on Accessibility

 

OK,
I like the discussion, we just need more pictures to explain it and not so much text.  

I was reviewing the site with a large retailer's Web development team and they immediately commented about how much TEXT was on the pages and they couldn't just get the jist by seeing the high-level picture first.  They told me its kind of like shopping - you want to know if you are looking for shoes or furniture - then drill down to the size and dimensions.  Maybe we could learn from retailers on how they "sell their stuff" -  which is one aspect of the business we are in - selling accessibility - so to speak.

Regards,
Phill Jenkins,

Shawn Henry <shawn@...>
Sent by: w3c-wai-ig-request@...

10/14/2009 03:30 PM

To	WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@...>
cc
Subject	New: Perspectives on Accessibility

 

Dear WAI Interest Group Participants,

Along with the redesigned W3C website, we have a new Accessibility page that introduces the what, why, where, and how of web accessibility. Read what it says about how the impact of disabilities can be radically changed for people using the Web when websites, web technologies, and web tools are properly designed. See:
   Accessibility - W3C
   http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/accessibility

Feel free to circulate this message to other lists; please avoid cross-postings where possible.

Regards,

~Shawn Lawton Henry
WAI Outreach Coordinator, Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Chair


-----
Shawn Lawton Henry
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
e-mail: shawn@...
phone: [phone]
about: http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/

met Phill at a election commission meeting last week was great meeting
you (your private e-mail bounced) and putting a face on a name.

Bob


On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Roger Hudson wrote:

> I agree the new look is better and easier to use, but like Phil I think it
> would be good if it didn't rely so much on text.
>
>
>
> Not only pictures I would like to suggest the use of videos and animation. I
> can't believe how many people have contacted me about the video I did a
> while ago showing Bruce Maguire using a refreshable Braille device
> (http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/refreshable-braille-and-the-web/ .
> Many people said they really liked seeing the Braille machine being used for
> a real task like buying a book rather than only having someone just
> demonstrating it. I am hoping to do something similar with a screen
> magnifier in the near future and other ATs after that.
>
>
>
> I think it would be great if the WAI site could have videos of people with
> disabilities using the web for everyday things - shopping, playing online
> games, booking tickets etc. Maybe also some videos of people struggling with
> things like CAPTCHA or some of the new interactive social networking
> sites/tools (or maybe not?)
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Roger
>
>
>
> Roger Hudson
>
> Web Usability
>
> Ph: 02 9568 1535
>
> Mb: 0405 320 014
>
> Email:  <mailto:rhudson@...> rhudson@...
>
> Web:  <http://www.usability.com.au/> www.usability.com.au
>
> Blog: www.dingoaccess.com
>
>
>
> Freezer 31: Sky goes to dinner at her parents' house and has a surprising
> encounter with her uncle, Elliott Price.
>
> http://www.dingoaccess.com/freezer/freezer-ep-31-dinner-with-uncle-elliott/
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@... [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@...] On Behalf
> Of Phill Jenkins
> Sent: Tuesday, 20 October 2009 3:55 AM
> To: WAI Interest Group
> Subject: Re: New: Perspectives on Accessibility
>
>
>
>
> OK,
> I like the discussion, we just need more pictures to explain it and not so
> much text.
>
> I was reviewing the site with a large retailer's Web development team and
> they immediately commented about how much TEXT was on the pages and they
> couldn't just get the jist by seeing the high-level picture first.  They
> told me its kind of like shopping - you want to know if you are looking for
> shoes or furniture - then drill down to the size and dimensions.  Maybe we
> could learn from retailers on how they "sell their stuff" -  which is one
> aspect of the business we are in - selling accessibility - so to speak.
>
> Regards,
> Phill Jenkins,
>
>
>
>
>
> Shawn Henry <shawn@...>
> Sent by: w3c-wai-ig-request@...
>
> 10/14/2009 03:30 PM
>
>
> To
>
> WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@...>
>
>
> cc
>
>
>
>
> Subject
>
> New: Perspectives on Accessibility
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear WAI Interest Group Participants,
>
> Along with the redesigned W3C website, we have a new Accessibility page that
> introduces the what, why, where, and how of web accessibility. Read what it
> says about how the impact of disabilities can be radically changed for
> people using the Web when websites, web technologies, and web tools are
> properly designed. See:
>    Accessibility - W3C
>    http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/accessibility
>
> Feel free to circulate this message to other lists; please avoid
> cross-postings where possible.
>
> Regards,
>
> ~Shawn Lawton Henry
> WAI Outreach Coordinator, Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Chair
>
>
> -----
> Shawn Lawton Henry
> W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> e-mail: shawn@...
> phone: [phone]
> about: http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-
end
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
occasionally a true patriot must defend his country from its' government
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety",    Benjamin Franklin
-   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
   ASCII Ribbon Campaign. . . . . . . . . . . . accessBob
   .NO HTML/PDF/RTF/MIME in e-mail. . . . . . . accessys@...
   .NO MSWord docs in e-mail . . . .. . . . . . Access Systems, engineers
   .NO attachments in e-mail, .*LINUX powered*. access is a civil right
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named

[John Foliot - Stanford Online Accessibility Program]

Apologies for Top Posting

For what it's worth, I totally agree with both Phil and Roger.  Ensuring
engaging content for all users should be a firm goal - yes it is sometimes
more challenging, but think of it as showcasing that it *CAN* be done:
correctly, engagingly, and appealingly to all users.

I particularly like Roger's example of providing videos of users simply
interacting; a perfect opportunity to also demonstrate that captioning is
useful, achievable and affordable. We need to prove the theory and not
just teach or preach.

As Marshall McLuhan noted: "The medium is the message."

Cheers!

JF

**************

From: w3c-wai-ig-request@... [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@...] On
Behalf Of Roger Hudson
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 4:11 PM
To: 'Phill Jenkins'; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: RE: New: Perspectives on Accessibility

I agree the new look is better and easier to use, but like Phil I think it
would be good if it didn’t rely so much on text.

Not only pictures I would like to suggest the use of videos and animation.
I can’t believe how many people have contacted me about the video I did a
while ago showing Bruce Maguire using a refreshable Braille device
(http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/refreshable-braille-and-the-web/
. Many people said they really liked seeing the Braille machine being used
for a real task like buying a book rather than only having someone just
demonstrating it. I am hoping to do something similar with a screen
magnifier in the near future and other ATs after that.

I think it would be great if the WAI site could have videos of people with
disabilities using the web for everyday things – shopping, playing online
games, booking tickets etc. Maybe also some videos of people struggling
with things like CAPTCHA or some of the new interactive social networking
sites/tools (or maybe not?)

Regards

Roger

Roger Hudson
Web Usability
Ph: 02 9568 1535
Mb: 0405 320 014
Email: rhudson@...
Web: www.usability.com.au
Blog: www.dingoaccess.com  
 
Freezer 31: Sky goes to dinner at her parents’ house and has a surprising
encounter with her uncle, Elliott Price.
http://www.dingoaccess.com/freezer/freezer-ep-31-dinner-with-uncle-elliott
/

________________________________________
From: w3c-wai-ig-request@... [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@...] On
Behalf Of Phill Jenkins
Sent: Tuesday, 20 October 2009 3:55 AM
To: WAI Interest Group
Subject: Re: New: Perspectives on Accessibility


OK,
I like the discussion, we just need more pictures to explain it and not so
much text.  

I was reviewing the site with a large retailer's Web development team and
they immediately commented about how much TEXT was on the pages and they
couldn't just get the jist by seeing the high-level picture first.  They
told me its kind of like shopping - you want to know if you are looking
for shoes or furniture - then drill down to the size and dimensions.
 Maybe we could learn from retailers on how they "sell their stuff" -
 which is one aspect of the business we are in - selling accessibility -
so to speak.

Regards,
Phill Jenkins,

Shawn Henry <shawn@...>
Sent by: w3c-wai-ig-request@...
10/14/2009 03:30 PM
To
WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@...>
cc

Subject
New: Perspectives on Accessibility







Dear WAI Interest Group Participants,

Along with the redesigned W3C website, we have a new Accessibility page
that introduces the what, why, where, and how of web accessibility. Read
what it says about how the impact of disabilities can be radically changed
for people using the Web when websites, web technologies, and web tools
are properly designed. See:
   Accessibility - W3C
   http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/accessibility

Feel free to circulate this message to other lists; please avoid
cross-postings where possible.

Regards,

~Shawn Lawton Henry
WAI Outreach Coordinator, Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG)
Chair


-----
Shawn Lawton Henry
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
e-mail: shawn@...
phone: [phone]
about: http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/

[Laura Keen]

 

In my position as the UI/accessibility developer at the Library, I forward news and resource links about accessibility to my co-workers often.  Usually I get no response.  A good percentage of developers still think about accessibility as an after thought.  When I forwarded Roger's video I received enormous positive response from almost everyone I sent it to.  It allowed me to reinforce that accessibility is a requirement like an other that they may care about.

 

 

 

Laura Keen
Office of Strategic Initiatives
Library of Congress
202.707.4722

>>> "John Foliot" <jfoliot@...> 10/19/2009 11:46 PM >>>

Apologies for Top Posting

For what it's worth, I totally agree with both Phil and Roger.  Ensuring
engaging content for all users should be a firm goal - yes it is sometimes
more challenging, but think of it as showcasing that it *CAN* be done:
correctly, engagingly, and appealingly to all users.

I particularly like Roger's example of providing videos of users simply
interacting; a perfect opportunity to also demonstrate that captioning is
useful, achievable and affordable. We need to prove the theory and not
just teach or preach.

As Marshall McLuhan noted: "The medium is the message."

Cheers!

JF

**************

From: w3c-wai-ig-request@... [w3c-wai-ig-request@... On
Behalf Of Roger Hudson
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 4:11 PM
To: 'Phill Jenkins'; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: RE: New: Perspectives on Accessibility

I agree the new look is better and easier to use, but like Phil I think it
would be good if it didn't rely so much on text.

Not only pictures I would like to suggest the use of videos and animation.
I can't believe how many people have contacted me about the video I did a
while ago showing Bruce Maguire using a refreshable Braille device
(http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/refreshable-braille-and-the-web/
. Many people said they really liked seeing the Braille machine being used
for a real task like buying a book rather than only having someone just
demonstrating it. I am hoping to do something similar with a screen
magnifier in the near future and other ATs after that.

I think it would be great if the WAI site could have videos of people with
disabilities using the web for everyday things - shopping, playing online
games, booking tickets etc. Maybe also some videos of people struggling
with things like CAPTCHA or some of the new interactive social networking
sites/tools (or maybe not?)

Regards

Roger

Roger Hudson
Web Usability
Ph: 02 9568 1535
Mb: 0405 320 014
Email: rhudson@...
Web: www.usability.com.au
Blog: www.dingoaccess.com  
 
Freezer 31: Sky goes to dinner at her parents' house and has a surprising
encounter with her uncle, Elliott Price.
http://www.dingoaccess.com/freezer/freezer-ep-31-dinner-with-uncle-elliott
/

________________________________________
From: w3c-wai-ig-request@... [w3c-wai-ig-request@... On
Behalf Of Phill Jenkins
Sent: Tuesday, 20 October 2009 3:55 AM
To: WAI Interest Group
Subject: Re: New: Perspectives on Accessibility


OK,
I like the discussion, we just need more pictures to explain it and not so
much text.  

I was reviewing the site with a large retailer's Web development team and
they immediately commented about how much TEXT was on the pages and they
couldn't just get the jist by seeing the high-level picture first.  They
told me its kind of like shopping - you want to know if you are looking
for shoes or furniture - then drill down to the size and dimensions.
 Maybe we could learn from retailers on how they "sell their stuff" -
 which is one aspect of the business we are in - selling accessibility -
so to speak.

Regards,
Phill Jenkins,

Shawn Henry <shawn@...>
Sent by: w3c-wai-ig-request@...
10/14/2009 03:30 PM
To
WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@...>
cc

Subject
New: Perspectives on Accessibility







Dear WAI Interest Group Participants,

Along with the redesigned W3C website, we have a new Accessibility page
that introduces the what, why, where, and how of web accessibility. Read
what it says about how the impact of disabilities can be radically changed
for people using the Web when websites, web technologies, and web tools
are properly designed. See:
   Accessibility - W3C
   http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/accessibility

Feel free to circulate this message to other lists; please avoid
cross-postings where possible.

Regards,

~Shawn Lawton Henry
WAI Outreach Coordinator, Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG)
Chair


-----
Shawn Lawton Henry
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
e-mail: shawn@...
phone: [phone]
about: http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/

[Jamal Mazrui]

FYI -- Blind computer users tend to find top posting to offer considerably higher usability in email discussions than the technique of quoting previously written material and interspersing comments.  Personally, I find the quoting technique to be so inefficient that I often delete a message as soon as I discover that the author is using that technique.  Similarly, if an email discussion list maligns top-posters, I generally will not post contributions to it because the alternative is so inefficient for me to do in the expected manner.  

This is an unfortunate, but real, set of circumstances.  I have not found an approach (on Windows) to make reading and writing quoted mail practical, and know that this applies broadly to screen reader users (though I am certainly not speaking for all)..

Jamal


-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-ig-request@... [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@...] On Behalf Of John Foliot
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 11:47 PM
To: 'Roger Hudson'; 'Phill Jenkins'; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: RE: New: Perspectives on Accessibility

Apologies for Top Posting

For what it's worth, I totally agree with both Phil and Roger.  Ensuring engaging content for all users should be a firm goal - yes it is sometimes more challenging, but think of it as showcasing that it *CAN* be done:
correctly, engagingly, and appealingly to all users.

I particularly like Roger's example of providing videos of users simply interacting; a perfect opportunity to also demonstrate that captioning is useful, achievable and affordable. We need to prove the theory and not just teach or preach.

As Marshall McLuhan noted: "The medium is the message."

Cheers!

JF

**************

From: w3c-wai-ig-request@... [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@...] On Behalf Of Roger Hudson
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 4:11 PM
To: 'Phill Jenkins'; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: RE: New: Perspectives on Accessibility

I agree the new look is better and easier to use, but like Phil I think it would be good if it didn't rely so much on text.

Not only pictures I would like to suggest the use of videos and animation.
I can't believe how many people have contacted me about the video I did a while ago showing Bruce Maguire using a refreshable Braille device (http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/refreshable-braille-and-the-web/
. Many people said they really liked seeing the Braille machine being used for a real task like buying a book rather than only having someone just demonstrating it. I am hoping to do something similar with a screen magnifier in the near future and other ATs after that.

I think it would be great if the WAI site could have videos of people with disabilities using the web for everyday things - shopping, playing online games, booking tickets etc. Maybe also some videos of people struggling with things like CAPTCHA or some of the new interactive social networking sites/tools (or maybe not?)

Regards

Roger

Roger Hudson
Web Usability
Ph: 02 9568 1535
Mb: 0405 320 014
Email: rhudson@...
Web: www.usability.com.au
Blog: www.dingoaccess.com  
 
Freezer 31: Sky goes to dinner at her parents' house and has a surprising encounter with her uncle, Elliott Price.
http://www.dingoaccess.com/freezer/freezer-ep-31-dinner-with-uncle-elliott
/

________________________________________
From: w3c-wai-ig-request@... [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@...] On Behalf Of Phill Jenkins
Sent: Tuesday, 20 October 2009 3:55 AM
To: WAI Interest Group
Subject: Re: New: Perspectives on Accessibility


OK,
I like the discussion, we just need more pictures to explain it and not so much text.  

I was reviewing the site with a large retailer's Web development team and they immediately commented about how much TEXT was on the pages and they couldn't just get the jist by seeing the high-level picture first.  They told me its kind of like shopping - you want to know if you are looking for shoes or furniture - then drill down to the size and dimensions.
 Maybe we could learn from retailers on how they "sell their stuff" -
 which is one aspect of the business we are in - selling accessibility - so to speak.

Regards,
Phill Jenkins,

Shawn Henry <shawn@...>
Sent by: w3c-wai-ig-request@...
10/14/2009 03:30 PM
To
WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@...>
cc

Subject
New: Perspectives on Accessibility







Dear WAI Interest Group Participants,

Along with the redesigned W3C website, we have a new Accessibility page that introduces the what, why, where, and how of web accessibility. Read what it says about how the impact of disabilities can be radically changed for people using the Web when websites, web technologies, and web tools are properly designed. See:
   Accessibility - W3C
   http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/accessibility

Feel free to circulate this message to other lists; please avoid cross-postings where possible.

Regards,

~Shawn Lawton Henry
WAI Outreach Coordinator, Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Chair


-----
Shawn Lawton Henry
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
e-mail: shawn@...
phone: [phone]
about: http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/

[David Dorward-3]

On 20 Oct 2009, at 16:52, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
> FYI -- Blind computer users tend to find top posting to

I've heard this before. I'm amazed that screen readers and email  
software haven't developed to a point where they can cope yet. It was  
almost a decade ago that I discovered that mutt (a free email client)  
had the ability to skip past quoted material or hide it entirely. If  
this is a problem - then please petition the authors of the software  
you use to make it compatible with RFC 1855.

In the meantime - if you are going to top post, then please TRIM your  
posts. I can do without needing to download five pages of content (the  
email to which I'm responding, and it is not the worst offender I've  
come across) to get half a page of new content — especially when I'm  
on a slow mobile connection.

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk

[David Poehlman-2]

I agree.  Sadly, this is one instance where two colors just escape us  
and if they didn't it would make all the difference in the world.  Top  
posting has been around for years an is the most efficient means of  
getting at the meat of matters when you are reading threads.  I know  
it's hell on archives and on others for various reasons, but there is  
no substitute.  Quoting inside the message and reading it is too time  
consuming and even trimming or paraphrasing is time consuming.
And just an FYI, it's off topic for the list.


--
Jonnie Appleseed
with his
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
reducing technology's disabilities
one byte at a time

[Jamal Mazrui]

I was not familiar with RFC 1855, so have just found and read it.
Indeed, it does recommend the quoting technique.  I doubt the authors
were familiar with the experience of screen reader users and considered
the effect of that recommendation on them.  

I am familiar with all popular Windows screen readers and know how to
script them.  None have features that significantly solve the quoting
problem, and I have not been able to think of a reliable way to script a
solution.  I know that quoting involves a set of conventions about >
signs, indentation, and color differentiation, but am not aware of an
algorithm to parse it reliably into a friendlier format for a screen
reader user.  Perhaps this should be the subject of a study or grant.

Personally, I find a quoting habit to sometimes be a cop out for
summarizing in one's own words the points to which one is responding.
It makes me think of a legalistic mindset where the person is not
willing to risk referencing previous points as needed within his or her
own sentences, but rather, has to sequentially quote a part of someone
verbatim, and then respond to each part.  This practice leads to
disjointed reading particularly when people impose layers of quoting
upon previous quotes.  If the length of accumulated top posts is a
concern, one approach is to only leave the last message and truncate all
prior messages in the correspondence.

Of course, it is the prerogative of list members to use the quoting
technique, but rest assured, they are thereby excluding many blind
readers who do not have the time to listen again to what they already
read in prior messages!

Jamal


-----Original Message-----
From: David Dorward [mailto:dorward@...] On Behalf Of David
Dorward
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 12:12 PM
To: Jamal Mazrui
Cc: John Foliot; Roger Hudson; Phill Jenkins; WAI Interest Group
Subject: Top posting (and full quoting) (was Re: New: Perspectives on
Accessibility)

On 20 Oct 2009, at 16:52, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
> FYI -- Blind computer users tend to find top posting to

I've heard this before. I'm amazed that screen readers and email
software haven't developed to a point where they can cope yet. It was
almost a decade ago that I discovered that mutt (a free email client)
had the ability to skip past quoted material or hide it entirely. If
this is a problem - then please petition the authors of the software you
use to make it compatible with RFC 1855.

In the meantime - if you are going to top post, then please TRIM your
posts. I can do without needing to download five pages of content (the
email to which I'm responding, and it is not the worst offender I've
come across) to get half a page of new content - especially when I'm on
a slow mobile connection.

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk

actually I don't consider it off topic, this is an accessibility to
the web issue. and seems to be at least tangentaly(sp) relavant..

Bob

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, David Poehlman wrote:

> I agree.  Sadly, this is one instance where two colors just escape us
> and if they didn't it would make all the difference in the world.  Top
> posting has been around for years an is the most efficient means of
> getting at the meat of matters when you are reading threads.  I know
> it's hell on archives and on others for various reasons, but there is
> no substitute.  Quoting inside the message and reading it is too time
> consuming and even trimming or paraphrasing is time consuming.
> And just an FYI, it's off topic for the list.
>
>
> --
> Jonnie Appleseed
> with his
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> reducing technology's disabilities
> one byte at a time
>
>

-
end
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
occasionally a true patriot must defend his country from its' government
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety",    Benjamin Franklin
-   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
   ASCII Ribbon Campaign. . . . . . . . . . . . accessBob
   .NO HTML/PDF/RTF/MIME in e-mail. . . . . . . accessys@...
   .NO MSWord docs in e-mail . . . .. . . . . . Access Systems, engineers
   .NO attachments in e-mail, .*LINUX powered*. access is a civil right
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named