New Direction for Firearms

[Magus Zeal]

I'll simply repost what I said in the Feature Requests forums.

[Start]
Well, I *do* like the inclusion of firearms for Slash'EM, particularly
since some of the new classes (Undead Slayer and Yeoman) can make
excellent use of them due to the historical period in which they take
place. However, this has been one of Slash'EM's many criticisms, and
I've seen it often mentioned in #Nethack and it's alike channels on
Freenode. Here's my proposal on how to re-work the system while
keeping some of it in place (enough to satisfy everyone). Here's how I
picture it (explanations following):

*Removal of all firearms, excepting these: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun.
Remove Gas Grenade, keep Dynamite (maybe Frag Grenade). Keep regular
bullets and silver bullets.
*Lowering bullet weight.
*Soldiers might (using current chance percentages) spawn with Pistol,
Sergeants with Shotgun, Lieutenants with Rifle, and Captains with
Rifle and (or?) Shotgun with high enchantment each.
*Reduction of Rogue skill in Firearms to Basic, maybe Skilled, and
increase of Yeoman's Firearms skill to Expert, maybe same for Undead
Slayer.

Here's my reasoning:

*Most of the firearms in the game are very modern, and defeat the
fantasy setting of the game (yes, well aware of the Jedi
patch/lightsabers/etc.). However, some of them can be used in a more
medieval setting, in a late Renaissance setting. The pistol looks like
some simple revolver or single shot weapon, as does the rifle, and the
same for the shotgun. On another note, the explosives are mostly
on-cue, particularly the Stick of Dynamite. Frag grenades *could* be
introduced under the prospect of having been in existance ever since
feudal Japan, but that's less likely than anything else.
*Ok, my reasoning behind this is fairly simple: bullets and other
ammunition for firearms are few and far between (mostly located at
Grund's Stronghold, Fort Ludios, and the Castle), with a few dozen or
so bullets/etc. found in shops. With bullets weighing 1 unit each,
this severely limits the amount you can carry, so you are often forced
to abandon much of what you find, keeping you in short supply until
you find an appropriate stockpile (see the above) and, once again, are
dependant on returning to it over and over again to reload. I had
figured either 0.5 unit or 0.1 unit per round, but this is clearly
open to debate.
*Fairly self-explanatory, and mostly due to the removal of much of the
firearms-based weaponry. Once again, open to debate.
*The Yeoman is a class that is designed to fight from horseback, using
a variety of weaponry, namely polearms and long-hafted weaponry, and
later, firearms. Along the same lines, there are writings of some
undead slayers (such as Van Helsing) using weaponry with silver
bullets in their fight. Furthermore, I can imagine a Rogue using a
pistol, as a simple stealthy ranged weapon, used to get the drop on
some unsuspecting target.

If some people find this to be a good idea, I can follow up with more
ideas. Once again, this idea is not to remove more power from the
players, but to rather give a little more realistic balance, and to
end the griping of some of the Nethack players, possibly getting more
to play Slash'EM.
[End]

Discussion is always welcome. I've heard from J. Ali that it's not a
huge deal to implement, but some consensus on the subject would be
best before implementation is considered.

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[J. Ali Harlow-2]

On 2006-09-03 06:54:19 AM, Magus Zeal wrote:

> Well, I *do* like the inclusion of firearms for Slash'EM,  
> particularly since some of the new classes (Undead Slayer and Yeoman)  
> can make excellent use of them due to the historical period in which  
> they take place. However, this has been one of Slash'EM's many  
> criticisms, and I've seen it often mentioned in #Nethack and it's  
> alike channels on Freenode. Here's my proposal on how to re-work the  
> system while keeping some of it in place (enough to satisfy  
> everyone). Here's how I picture it (explanations following):
>
> *Removal of all firearms, excepting these: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun.
> Remove Gas Grenade, keep Dynamite (maybe Frag Grenade). Keep regular
> bullets and silver bullets.

That means removal of: submachine gun, heavy machine gun, assault  
rifle, sniper rifle, auto shotgun, rocket launcher, grenade launcher,  
shotgun shells (!), rockets, gas and possibly frag grenades.

Personally, I'm not in favour of removing firearms from Slash'EM.  
Instead I would propose reducing their effectiveness. Thus I'd like to  
see ammunition split. As a starting point:

Pistol (Flintlock?): lead balls
Rifle: minie balls
Assault rifle (Sturmgewehr 44?): short bullets
Sniper rifle (Lee-Enfield?): stripper clips
Shotgun: shotgun shells
Auto shotgun: small shotgun shells
Submachine gun (Thompson?): long bullets
Heavy machine gun (Gatling?): cartridges
Rocket launcher: rockets
Grenade launcher: gas and frag grenades

Warning: I know nothing about firearms. I'm CCing Chris and David to  
get some rather more expert opinion as well as general thoughts.

Ideally, I think we want pistols and rifles to become plausible general  
weapons, with ammunition fairly readily available and carried by  
soldiers and the like. They should be roughly as effective as yumi, but  
with different pros and cons. Shotguns could be generally available but  
harder to find the shells. Assault and sniper rifles, auto shotguns and  
submachine guns should not be generally available. They need to be hard  
to find and hard to use. Rocket and grenade launchers might be designed  
so that they do have a strategic use, but with some heavy penalties  
(perhaps a time penalty so that you have to be quite some distance away  
before you can safely use them). Heavy machine guns should be usable  
when found (rare) and far too heavy to take with you (and certainly not  
up or down stairs).

We need to limit the effectiveness of enhancing ammunition.

> *Lowering bullet weight.

Perhaps for lead and minie balls.

> *Soldiers might (using current chance percentages) spawn with Pistol,
> Sergeants with Shotgun, Lieutenants with Rifle, and Captains with
> Rifle and (or?) Shotgun with high enchantment each.

I see no reason to use any enchantment here and I think captains  
shouldn't carry firearms. Their weapons are mainly symbolic.

> *Reduction of Rogue skill in Firearms to Basic, maybe Skilled, and
> increase of Yeoman's Firearms skill to Expert, maybe same for Undead
> Slayer.

Sounds sensible.

> Here's my reasoning:
>
> *Most of the firearms in the game are very modern, and defeat the  
> fantasy setting of the game (yes, well aware of the Jedi  
> patch/lightsabers/etc.). However, some of them can be used in a more  
> medieval setting, in a late Renaissance setting. The pistol looks  
> like some simple revolver or single shot weapon, as does the rifle,  
> and the same for the shotgun. On another note, the explosives are  
> mostly on-cue, particularly the Stick of Dynamite. Frag grenades  
> *could* be introduced under the prospect of having been in existance  
> ever since feudal Japan, but that's less likely than anything else.

Yes, I certainly think we need to use the early instances of each  
firearm as a basis, but we don't need to stick slavishly to history if  
we can get better game balance by diverging.

> *Ok, my reasoning behind this is fairly simple: bullets and other  
> ammunition for firearms are few and far between (mostly located at  
> Grund's Stronghold, Fort Ludios, and the Castle), with a few dozen or  
> so bullets/etc. found in shops. With bullets weighing 1 unit each,  
> this severely limits the amount you can carry, so you are often  
> forced to abandon much of what you find, keeping you in short supply  
> until you find an appropriate stockpile (see the above) and, once  
> again, are dependant on returning to it over and over again to  
> reload. I had figured either 0.5 unit or 0.1 unit per round, but this  
> is clearly open to debate.

 From what I hear from players, they seem to be able to carry  
sufficient ammunition around with them to be far too effective at  
present. The last thing we want to do is make it easier to be  
over-powered. But I agree, if we can reduce the effectiveness of the  
pistol and the rifle we could relax this point for them.

> *Fairly self-explanatory, and mostly due to the removal of much of  
> the firearms-based weaponry. Once again, open to debate.
> *The Yeoman is a class that is designed to fight from horseback,  
> using a variety of weaponry, namely polearms and long-hafted  
> weaponry, and later, firearms. Along the same lines, there are  
> writings of some undead slayers (such as Van Helsing) using weaponry  
> with silver bullets in their fight. Furthermore, I can imagine a  
> Rogue using a pistol, as a simple stealthy ranged weapon, used to get  
> the drop on some unsuspecting target.

Not sure a pistol is all that stealthy, but I can imagine a rogue  
keeping one as a backup weapon in case they get cornered.

> If some people find this to be a good idea, I can follow up with more
> ideas. Once again, this idea is not to remove more power from the
> players, but to rather give a little more realistic balance, and to
> end the griping of some of the Nethack players, possibly getting more
> to play Slash'EM.

Well, I'm not overly bothered what non-players think, but I do want to  
make Slash'EM a better game.

Thanks for your thoughts, Magus.

Ali.

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[Magus Zeal]

> That means removal of: submachine gun, heavy machine gun, assault
> rifle, sniper rifle, auto shotgun, rocket launcher, grenade launcher,
> shotgun shells (!), rockets, gas and possibly frag grenades.
Ah, slight error there. We could still keep shotgun shells (along with
the regular shotgun, no autoshotgun), and I see no reason as to not
keep frag grenades, as there were reports in feudal Japan where
grenades, made out of clay and filled with gunpowder and metal scraps
were used. Gas grenades would be a little harder to justify though.

> Personally, I'm not in favour of removing firearms from Slash'EM.
> Instead I would propose reducing their effectiveness. Thus I'd like to
> see ammunition split. As a starting point:
>
> Pistol (Flintlock?): lead balls
> Rifle: minie balls
> Assault rifle (Sturmgewehr 44?): short bullets
> Sniper rifle (Lee-Enfield?): stripper clips
> Shotgun: shotgun shells
> Auto shotgun: small shotgun shells
> Submachine gun (Thompson?): long bullets
> Heavy machine gun (Gatling?): cartridges
> Rocket launcher: rockets
> Grenade launcher: gas and frag grenades

Uh-oh! Major problem there! With the current bow system, it's set up
to you can wield a Ya, but still fire Orcish Arrows. This is to keep a
bow effective, though less effective than optimal, if the appropriate
ammunition is not found. By making ammunition specific to each weapon,
you're basically removing the entire point of firearms -- you can lug
an SMG around the whole dungeon, while never finding the right ammo
for it.
This could be fixed so that it limits ammunition for classes that are
proficient in Firearms. Perhaps there could be an "Ammunition
Conversion Tool" that Yeomen/Undead Slayers start with that will let
you convert, say, shotgun shells to long bullets. And, to further
increase it's effectiveness, the better you are at the Firearms skill,
the more ammunition you're able to convert (say going from 5 shotgun
shells to 3 long bullets at Basic, all the way up to 5 shotgun shells
to 8 long bullets at Expert), thus keeping the skill alive at higher
levels and making investing skill points in them so much better.

> Warning: I know nothing about firearms. I'm CCing Chris and David to
> get some rather more expert opinion as well as general thoughts.
I do consider myself somewhat of a buff on firearms myself, but for
the above, perhaps they can give more input, as I've never created my
own ammunition.

> Ideally, I think we want pistols and rifles to become plausible general
> weapons, with ammunition fairly readily available and carried by
> soldiers and the like. They should be roughly as effective as yumi, but
> with different pros and cons. Shotguns could be generally available but
> harder to find the shells. Assault and sniper rifles, auto shotguns and
> submachine guns should not be generally available. They need to be hard
> to find and hard to use. Rocket and grenade launchers might be designed
> so that they do have a strategic use, but with some heavy penalties
> (perhaps a time penalty so that you have to be quite some distance away
> before you can safely use them). Heavy machine guns should be usable
> when found (rare) and far too heavy to take with you (and certainly not
> up or down stairs).

Agreed. Rocket Launchers are too heavy. The launcher + one shot takes
up 1000 units of weight, which makes them impossible to carry. Perhaps
make Rocket Launchers a one-shot weapon, disposable? Like the modern
M136 AT4? Or (as I like the idea), be able to strap on a grenade
launcher to another weapon (preferably a rifle, as it just wouldn't
work to apply it to a pistol, shotgun or SMG) and have it function as
one unit, with a reduced weight?

> We need to limit the effectiveness of enhancing ammunition.
Agreed. I can slaughter named monsters (like Demogorgon) with a +7 AR
and +7 bullets, on automatic mode.

> > *Lowering bullet weight.
>
> Perhaps for lead and minie balls.
>
> > *Soldiers might (using current chance percentages) spawn with Pistol,
> > Sergeants with Shotgun, Lieutenants with Rifle, and Captains with
> > Rifle and (or?) Shotgun with high enchantment each.
>
> I see no reason to use any enchantment here and I think captains
> shouldn't carry firearms. Their weapons are mainly symbolic.

Fair enough.

> > *Reduction of Rogue skill in Firearms to Basic, maybe Skilled, and
> > increase of Yeoman's Firearms skill to Expert, maybe same for Undead
> > Slayer.
>
> Sounds sensible.
>
> > Here's my reasoning:
> >
> > *Most of the firearms in the game are very modern, and defeat the
> > fantasy setting of the game (yes, well aware of the Jedi
> > patch/lightsabers/etc.). However, some of them can be used in a more
> > medieval setting, in a late Renaissance setting. The pistol looks
> > like some simple revolver or single shot weapon, as does the rifle,
> > and the same for the shotgun. On another note, the explosives are
> > mostly on-cue, particularly the Stick of Dynamite. Frag grenades
> > *could* be introduced under the prospect of having been in existance
> > ever since feudal Japan, but that's less likely than anything else.
>
> Yes, I certainly think we need to use the early instances of each
> firearm as a basis, but we don't need to stick slavishly to history if
> we can get better game balance by diverging.
> > *Ok, my reasoning behind this is fairly simple: bullets and other
> > ammunition for firearms are few and far between (mostly located at
> > Grund's Stronghold, Fort Ludios, and the Castle), with a few dozen or
> > so bullets/etc. found in shops. With bullets weighing 1 unit each,
> > this severely limits the amount you can carry, so you are often
> > forced to abandon much of what you find, keeping you in short supply
> > until you find an appropriate stockpile (see the above) and, once
> > again, are dependant on returning to it over and over again to
> > reload. I had figured either 0.5 unit or 0.1 unit per round, but this
> > is clearly open to debate.
>
>  From what I hear from players, they seem to be able to carry
> sufficient ammunition around with them to be far too effective at
> present. The last thing we want to do is make it easier to be
> over-powered. But I agree, if we can reduce the effectiveness of the
> pistol and the rifle we could relax this point for them.
>
> > *Fairly self-explanatory, and mostly due to the removal of much of
> > the firearms-based weaponry. Once again, open to debate.
> > *The Yeoman is a class that is designed to fight from horseback,
> > using a variety of weaponry, namely polearms and long-hafted
> > weaponry, and later, firearms. Along the same lines, there are
> > writings of some undead slayers (such as Van Helsing) using weaponry
> > with silver bullets in their fight. Furthermore, I can imagine a
> > Rogue using a pistol, as a simple stealthy ranged weapon, used to get
> > the drop on some unsuspecting target.
>
> Not sure a pistol is all that stealthy, but I can imagine a rogue
> keeping one as a backup weapon in case they get cornered.
>
> > If some people find this to be a good idea, I can follow up with more
> > ideas. Once again, this idea is not to remove more power from the
> > players, but to rather give a little more realistic balance, and to
> > end the griping of some of the Nethack players, possibly getting more
> > to play Slash'EM.
>
> Well, I'm not overly bothered what non-players think, but I do want to
> make Slash'EM a better game.

Heh, I agree there. But I figure the more people we can get to play
our game, the better.

Magus

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