New RC release?

[Mark Overmeer-2]

Greetz,

The current 1.4RC is already quite old.  While creating a new XML-RPC
interface implementation in Perl, I found a number of (serious) problems.
Of course, a lot of these are probably fixed... creating bug-reports for
them is a waste of time.

Would it be possible to release a second RC?
--
Regards,

               MarkOv

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[Adam Retter-3]

I believe the release is imminent.

Otherwise, in the mean time you might like to just check-out trunk and
build it yourself, its pretty easy -

1) $ svn co https://exist.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/exist/trunk/eXist
2) $ cd eXist
3) $ ./build.sh


2009/11/10 Mark Overmeer <mark@...>:

> Greetz,
>
> The current 1.4RC is already quite old.  While creating a new XML-RPC
> interface implementation in Perl, I found a number of (serious) problems.
> Of course, a lot of these are probably fixed... creating bug-reports for
> them is a waste of time.
>
> Would it be possible to release a second RC?
> --
> Regards,
>
>               MarkOv
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>       Mark Overmeer MSc                                MARKOV Solutions
>       Mark@...                          solutions@...
> http://Mark.Overmeer.net                   http://solutions.overmeer.net
>
>
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>

--
Adam Retter

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{ United Kingdom }
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[Jason Smith-11]

+1 on the RC as opposed to a 1.4 final release.  Given the number of changes since the RC, the codebase can't be called "stable" at that point.  

A couple of weeks to allow us to evaluate 1.4 before the official release can't hurt.  If someone finds a serious bug in a release candidate, that is a good thing.  It can be fixed before it causes real damage.  If someone finds a serious bug in released software, on a production system, and especially data is lost, that hurts.  

Honestly, I *can* wait for the software to be done "right."  If developers want to go forward with the next release, make a 1.4 branch (bug fixes only) for stability and tag it on each RC.  No big deal.  

But please don't release before we, the eXist user community, have had a chance to test this one last time, in a state that you deem to be stable and ready to release.

Jason Smith
________________________________________
From: Adam Retter [adam@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:24 AM
To: mark@...
Cc: Exist Open ML
Subject: Re: [Exist-open] New RC release?

I believe the release is imminent.

Otherwise, in the mean time you might like to just check-out trunk and
build it yourself, its pretty easy -

1) $ svn co https://exist.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/exist/trunk/eXist
2) $ cd eXist
3) $ ./build.sh


2009/11/10 Mark Overmeer <mark@...>:

> Greetz,
>
> The current 1.4RC is already quite old.  While creating a new XML-RPC
> interface implementation in Perl, I found a number of (serious) problems.
> Of course, a lot of these are probably fixed... creating bug-reports for
> them is a waste of time.
>
> Would it be possible to release a second RC?
> --
> Regards,
>
>               MarkOv
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>       Mark Overmeer MSc                                MARKOV Solutions
>       Mark@...                          solutions@...
> http://Mark.Overmeer.net                   http://solutions.overmeer.net
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Exist-open mailing list
> Exist-open@...
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>

--
Adam Retter

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{ United Kingdom }
adam@...
irc://irc.freenode.net/existdb

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[Wolfgang Meier-2]

> +1 on the RC as opposed to a 1.4 final release.  Given the number of changes since the RC, the
> codebase can't be called "stable" at that point.

Personally, I hate final releases and I always have to be forced to
make a cut ;-)

However, I spent the past 4 weeks to get the release stable. I worked
through all issues I had flagged as critical and all major problems
which were reported since the release candidate have been fixed. I
have been very careful not to accept changes which could really
destabilize eXist's core. I rejected a few commits or postponed
missing features. The new features which I let pass are outside
eXist's core (the XSLT code is not even integrated in any way and I
checked every single commit in other areas).

I would thus say it is very unlikely that the trunk will be more
stable in a few weeks than it is now.  It is a huge amount of work to
coordinate a release like this. Right now, most stuff has been tested
over and over again. It will be difficult to repeat this procedure.

Finally, I think it is very important that users start the migration
from 1.2 to 1.4 now. The new release fixes some very critical issues
which repeatedly led to serious problems in the past. I can't really
recommend to continue with 1.2 (unless you are sure you'll never hit
the problematic features).

> But please don't release before we, the eXist user community, have had a chance to test this one last time, in a state that you deem to be stable and ready to release.

I think this is somehow a hen and egg problem: a lot of companies will
not start their own test procedures before the final release is out. I
understand they want a fixed, non-changing version to test against and
they have been asking me for a stable release since months. Well,
fortunately, not just a few users are also running SVN trunk in
production. Those are the ones who start crying immediately if
something serious is broken.

If the community really wants it, I'm ready to relabel the release to
RC2 and will communicate that. Personally, I think the current 1.4
will definitely be better than any release before, even if we find
that 1.4.1 has to follow soon.

Wolfgang

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[WolfgangM]

> If the community really wants it, I'm ready to relabel the release to
> RC2 and will communicate that. Personally, I think the current 1.4
> will definitely be better than any release before, even if we find
> that 1.4.1 has to follow soon.

Note: I have put my official release announcement to a hold until tomorrow.

Wolfgang

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[Joe Wicentowski]

>> If the community really wants it, I'm ready to relabel the release to
>> RC2 and will communicate that. Personally, I think the current 1.4
>> will definitely be better than any release before, even if we find
>> that 1.4.1 has to follow soon.
>
> Note: I have put my official release announcement to a hold until tomorrow.

+1 to a release now.

As one of the users who has been running with 1.3dev in production
since May and 100% uptime, I can attest to its stability.  I think the
time is definitely right for a release of 1.4, even if, as Wolfgang
says, 1.4.1 follows soon after.

Joe

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[Joe Wicentowski]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Joe Wicentowski <joewiz@...> wrote:
> +1 to a release now.

(By "now", I mean to releasing the current code as 1.4, as opposed to
going through another RC cycle and releasing 1.4 "later".)

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[Jason Smith-11]

I just built from /trunk and my custom code badly broke because someone else has mapped /services to Apache Axis, apparently.  It gives me a nice SOAPy error message.  I can fix it, but it worked fine with 1.4rc-rev10028.

This is a pretty major change from 1.4rc.  There are BIG new features in /trunk that weren't in 1.4rc.  The reason you would put out an RC is so that people have a chance to evaluate what you have before you commit to the release version.  What you have, right now, is significantly different from 1.4rc.  There are all kinds of opportunities to break things.

I'm not suggesting that you stop all development while this is going on.  By all means, create a branch, drop an RC, and see what happens.  If this code is stable (as we hope), you release exactly what you branched a couple of weeks earlier.  If something significant pops up, you have a chance to fix it before it goes live.  The additional time merely gives you an extra chance to evaluate and accept or reject any bug reports that come in.  

And for the record, there are those of us who aren't a lot of companies and who actually try out new releases as they come out.  :-)   I run a couple of hundred (and growing) automated tests against eXist in testing my application, built on eXist.  I spend a fair amount of time reading your source code.  There are a couple of other guys here that do the same with different kinds of tests.  

We'd like a chance to help you evaluate the 1.4 release before it becomes a release.  The better your release, the better our software looks.  Yes, it's selfish philanthropy.

Jason Smith
________________________________________
From: Wolfgang Meier [wolfgang@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:04 PM
To: Jason Smith
Cc: Exist Open ML
Subject: Re: [Exist-open] New RC release?

> +1 on the RC as opposed to a 1.4 final release.  Given the number of changes since the RC, the
> codebase can't be called "stable" at that point.

Personally, I hate final releases and I always have to be forced to
make a cut ;-)

However, I spent the past 4 weeks to get the release stable. I worked
through all issues I had flagged as critical and all major problems
which were reported since the release candidate have been fixed. I
have been very careful not to accept changes which could really
destabilize eXist's core. I rejected a few commits or postponed
missing features. The new features which I let pass are outside
eXist's core (the XSLT code is not even integrated in any way and I
checked every single commit in other areas).

I would thus say it is very unlikely that the trunk will be more
stable in a few weeks than it is now.  It is a huge amount of work to
coordinate a release like this. Right now, most stuff has been tested
over and over again. It will be difficult to repeat this procedure.

Finally, I think it is very important that users start the migration
from 1.2 to 1.4 now. The new release fixes some very critical issues
which repeatedly led to serious problems in the past. I can't really
recommend to continue with 1.2 (unless you are sure you'll never hit
the problematic features).

> But please don't release before we, the eXist user community, have had a chance to test this one last time, in a state that you deem to be stable and ready to release.

I think this is somehow a hen and egg problem: a lot of companies will
not start their own test procedures before the final release is out. I
understand they want a fixed, non-changing version to test against and
they have been asking me for a stable release since months. Well,
fortunately, not just a few users are also running SVN trunk in
production. Those are the ones who start crying immediately if
something serious is broken.

If the community really wants it, I'm ready to relabel the release to
RC2 and will communicate that. Personally, I think the current 1.4
will definitely be better than any release before, even if we find
that 1.4.1 has to follow soon.

Wolfgang
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[Mark Overmeer-2]

* Wolfgang Meier (wolfgang@...) [091110 19:04]:
> I would thus say it is very unlikely that the trunk will be more
> stable in a few weeks than it is now.  It is a huge amount of work to
> coordinate a release like this. Right now, most stuff has been tested
> over and over again. It will be difficult to repeat this procedure.

Getting something out the door is a lot of work.  I hope it is not too
hard to repeat your testing procedures... the core of development work.

Apparantly, XML-RPC is not covered in your regression tests... See the
6 new bug-reports. When resolved, I have at least a few regression tests
for you.

Anyway: congratulations with this major leap.
--
Regards,

               MarkOv

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[Andrzej Jan Taramina]

Wolfgang said:

> Well,
> fortunately, not just a few users are also running SVN trunk in
> production. Those are the ones who start crying immediately if
> something serious is broken.

Hey! I resemble that remark! LOL

But as Wolfgang said, some of us have been hammering on SVN trunk in production for some time now, and our application
really stresses certain aspects of eXist in a Tomcat container.

Time for a release to get folks to start migrating to 1.4!

As new bugs are found, that is what point releases are for. 1.4.1 here we come! ;-)

--
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Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions
http://www.chaeron.com

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[Dannes Wessels-2]

heho

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Andrzej Jan Taramina <andrzej@...> wrote:

As new bugs are found, that is what point releases are for. 1.4.1 here we come! ;-)

I vote for a release of current code as well. The server has become very stable and... fast for me.

Yes I know that some significant changes were incorporated since RC, probably there should have been a RC2, but even now the current trunk code is well tested: XQTS, unit tests and..... 'out in the field'.

Sure we'll find issues, as there are always issues in software. The issues found in the SOAP, yeah these might be caused by the after RC changes. Sorry about that....

regards

Dannes

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[Wolfgang Meier-2]

> Apparantly, XML-RPC is not covered in your regression tests... See the
> 6 new bug-reports. When resolved, I have at least a few regression tests
> for you.

Actually it works better the other way around. A test case increases the
chances of a bug to be fixed. If you have half an hour time to check the
tracker, you will likely pick those bugs you can reproduce within 5
minutes or less. A test definitely helps to get attention ;-)

Anyway, the XML-RPC methods needed by the XML:DB implementation are
covered by tests in various areas. Others are not. Unfortunately, we
cannot wait for all bugs on the tracker to be fixed, though some of your
reports are certainly interesting. But XML-RPC is only one interface out
of many, so the question is if bugs in there should block all other
users. I tend to say no.

As I said, 1.4 has critical improvements and I think holding them back
would really do more harm than good. If we choose an RC, the final
release certainly won't be out before January or February (I have to
attend some paid work now). The current code has been tested by many
people during the past weeks and we had the time to concentrate on it
(which I won't have later). We know the core is stable even if there are
remaining problems in some interfaces. Interface issues are easier to
fix than damaged databases though.

Well, since three years we discuss about switching to shorter release
cycles. It's time to start.

Wolfgang

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[Jason Smith-11]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

I've been using 1.4rc-rev10028 for a while, and it's pretty good.  I'm not saying there is definitely something wrong with /trunk.  I am saying there might be, and how would you know?  Regression errors happen, and eXist is big.

 

There are thousands of users of this software. Chances are that any one user uses a certain subset of functionality.  If it works for you, that's wonderful!  If it is broken for someone else, and we can fix it before going live, isn't that preferable? (The answer depends on whether you are the user who has the bug, of course.)

 

Shouldn't we strive to do everything we can to make sure that each release of eXist is as stable and bug-free as possible?  And if all it takes is a little extra SCM process and a couple of weeks (in a development cycle that has taken many months), is that too big a price to pay?

 

Keep in mind, this optimally requires very little extra effort, just some waiting (unless there are serious bugs).

 

I am suggesting:

* Branch the current code base, as is.  No more development there.  NO NEW FEATURES.  That's your 1.4 source.

* /trunk version immediately goes to 1.5.  New development goes there.  Break it all you want.  Go wild.

* Release an RC based on the 1.4 branch. 

    - Or, if an RC release is too hard, just let people like me build from the branch and report bugs.  I'm asking for a little time, and I am flexible. 

* After a couple of weeks, assuming no major bugs have rolled in, you release. 

    - Bugs can be addressed in the branch without adding new features during this time.

    - Only serious bugs need be addressed.  The point is to get something out that is good and stable, but not perfect.  With high confidence.

 

IF THE CODEBASE IS GOOD ENOUGH NOW, there is really no extra work.  It's just a little extra time for folks like me.

 

Without the extra time, there is no way to know whether or not a regression error has been introduced - until it's too late to do anything about it.

 

 

If you are a consumer who trusts the current codebase ... build it from the branch, use it now, get the released stuff when it's posted.  The stuff in the branch should not change unless someone finds a bug that is serious enough that it *must* be fixed before a release can occur. 

 

 

 

Jason Smith

 

---

From: Dannes Wessels [dizzzz@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:01 PM
To: Andrzej Jan Taramina
Cc: exist-open@...
Subject: Re: [Exist-open] New RC release?

heho

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Andrzej Jan Taramina <andrzej@...> wrote:

As new bugs are found, that is what point releases are for. 1.4.1 here we come! ;-)

I vote for a release of current code as well. The server has become very stable and... fast for me.

Yes I know that some significant changes were incorporated since RC, probably there should have been a RC2, but even now the current trunk code is well tested: XQTS, unit tests and..... 'out in the field'.

Sure we'll find issues, as there are always issues in software. The issues found in the SOAP, yeah these might be caused by the after RC changes. Sorry about that....

regards

Dannes

--
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[Dannes Wessels-2]

On 10 Nov 2009, at 22:43 , Jason Smith wrote:

* Branch the current code base, as is.  No more development there.  NO NEW FEATURES.  That's your 1.4 source.

we know the rules, we agreed to work that way, see http://www.exist-db.org/download.html ;

When 1.4 is released we'll start 1.5 pretty soon. New features will end up in there (and thus later in 1.6) while 1.4.x is the stable release, that is fixes and maybe some ports from 1.5 if there is a reason for (paying clients for example)

Kind regards

Dannes

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[Wolfgang Meier-2]

> Shouldn't we strive to do everything we can to make sure that each release
> of eXist is as stable and bug-free as possible?

For months, users kept telling me that no release is perfect and there
will always be bugs, and everyone complained about 1.4 not being
released. Now you are trying to convince us of the opposite ;-)

The benefits of 1.4 compared to 1.2 are important enough for us to
definitely recommend switching to 1.4 - in particular with respect to
overall reliability and performance! If this is the case, we cannot
hold back 1.4 for two more months and let people continue with 1.2 if
we know that 1.4 has worked for our testers. Even a 1.4 with some
remaining bugs will be better than a 1.2. Seriously, 1.2 has caused me
many headaches.

Compared to the RC, the changes to the database core have been minimal
and the core has proven to be stable. So there has been enough time to
test drive everything. I do not consider the network interfaces part
of the core though.

> * Branch the current code base, as is.  No more development there.  NO NEW
> FEATURES.  That's your 1.4 source.
> * /trunk version immediately goes to 1.5.  New development goes there.

Yes, that's how we did it for 1.2/1.3 and how it is planned for
1.4/1.5. 1.4.x becomes the new stable branch. 1.4.0 is not the end of
the world and what you suggest does all apply to the 1.4.x series.

Wolfgang

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[Adam Retter-3]

> I think the
> time is definitely right for a release of 1.4, even if, as Wolfgang
> says, 1.4.1 follows soon after.

I completely agree :-)

--
Adam Retter

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{ United Kingdom }
adam@...
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[Andrzej Jan Taramina]

Jason wrote:

> Shouldn't we strive to do everything we can to make sure that each
> release of eXist is as stable and bug-free as possible?  And if all it
> takes is a little extra SCM process and a couple of weeks (in a
> development cycle that has taken many months), is that too big a price
> to pay?

Following this approach would result in no releases ever making it out the door.

To some degree, Caveat Emptor (or should that be Caveat Openus Sourceus?) should apply.

It goes without saying that for those users that are still on 1.2 (!!!), they should not switch a production system over
to 1.4 without significant testing first.  Regardless of how much testing the dev team has done, or how supposedly
stable/bug-free the release is. And many will not begin this testing process till 1.4 is official.

If stuff doesn't work then the users have a number of choices:

1) Stay on the older release (1.2 or whatever) since that is known to work. There's nothing forcing users to upgrade!
2) Dive in and help test/isolate/document and even maybe fix the bugs they find in 1.4.
3) Hope someone else finds the bugs and wait till 1.4.1 (though that can be an infinite recursion)
4) Find workarounds or live with the issues with 1.4 and deploy into production.

All of which could be potentially "optimal" strategies, depending on each users individual circumstances.

And I would also suggest that those users who have a lot of "investment" in eXist and use it heavily should seriously
consider doing SVN trunk builds and testing frequently against the latest code base. That way, when a release comes out,
there shouldn't be many/any surprises. That is what I do, and it's very effective, plus it has the benefit of actively
testing and improving eXist on an ongoing basis and keeping our application in close sync with eXist's evolution.

Better still, next time maybe you could start your testing sooner, Jason (eg. using SVN trunk) and help to improve the
final release rather than whining that more SCM processes and delays are required at the nth hour?  And let me tell you,
your comments do sound like whining to me.

So to answer your question, YES, it's too big a price to pay. At some point you just have to cut things off and deliver
a release. Wolfgang (and others) have put in massive amounts of work to get this release ready, and many people are
awaiting it anxiously.

Release early and release often should be the mantra. Not "hide under your mom's skirts till it's guaranteed to have no
bugs whatsoever". LOL

+1 from me to create a 1.4 distribution release immediately, and start work on 1.4.1 and 1.5.

My 2 cents worth as one of the committers (albeit not a major one).

--
Andrzej Taramina
Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions
http://www.chaeron.com

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[Adam Retter-3]

> There are thousands of users of this software. Chances are that any one user
> uses a certain subset of functionality.  If it works for you, that's
> wonderful!  If it is broken for someone else, and we can fix it before going
> live, isn't that preferable? (The answer depends on whether you are the user
> who has the bug, of course.)
>
> Shouldn't we strive to do everything we can to make sure that each release
> of eXist is as stable and bug-free as possible?  And if all it takes is a
> little extra SCM process and a couple of weeks (in a development cycle that
> has taken many months), is that too big a price to pay?

I feel that the eXist part is done. We have completed our testing and
also taken a lot of input from users (like those who follow trunk).

I would advise anyone to test a new version of ANY software in a
development setting to understand the full implications of an upgrade
and how to manage that, before they move to a production environment.

As such, I feel that our part is done, and its now time for your part.
Test 1.4.0 and if your comfortable with it then use it in live, if not
then feedback to us and wait for 1.4.1. I know a lot of very serious
users/developers who will never immediately use a version "1" of any
software branch in a production system, they will wait some time for
known bugs to appear and be documented first.

Risk. Its all about risk and trying to reduce that, IMHO we have
worked hard to keep risk low, but only you can manage the risk of your
higher-level software.





--
Adam Retter

eXist Developer
{ United Kingdom }
adam@...
irc://irc.freenode.net/existdb

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[Dmitriy Shabanov]

On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 22:16 +0100, Wolfgang wrote:
> Well, since three years we discuss about switching to shorter release
> cycles. It's time to start.

+1

1.4 should be bug fixing branch.

--
Cheers,

Dmitriy Shabanov

PS Do "shorter" mean 6 months? ;)


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[James Fuller-4]

+1 for release early and often and +1 for new release of eXist forthwith ;)

Jim Fuller

ps: I did final sanity test last night with about 8 vm images of
various OS flavors confirms that eXist seems stable/robust

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Adam Retter <adam@...> wrote:

>> There are thousands of users of this software. Chances are that any one user
>> uses a certain subset of functionality.  If it works for you, that's
>> wonderful!  If it is broken for someone else, and we can fix it before going
>> live, isn't that preferable? (The answer depends on whether you are the user
>> who has the bug, of course.)
>>
>> Shouldn't we strive to do everything we can to make sure that each release
>> of eXist is as stable and bug-free as possible?  And if all it takes is a
>> little extra SCM process and a couple of weeks (in a development cycle that
>> has taken many months), is that too big a price to pay?
>
> I feel that the eXist part is done. We have completed our testing and
> also taken a lot of input from users (like those who follow trunk).
>
> I would advise anyone to test a new version of ANY software in a
> development setting to understand the full implications of an upgrade
> and how to manage that, before they move to a production environment.
>
> As such, I feel that our part is done, and its now time for your part.
> Test 1.4.0 and if your comfortable with it then use it in live, if not
> then feedback to us and wait for 1.4.1. I know a lot of very serious
> users/developers who will never immediately use a version "1" of any
> software branch in a production system, they will wait some time for
> known bugs to appear and be documented first.
>
> Risk. Its all about risk and trying to reduce that, IMHO we have
> worked hard to keep risk low, but only you can manage the risk of your
> higher-level software.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Adam Retter
>
> eXist Developer
> { United Kingdom }
> adam@...
> irc://irc.freenode.net/existdb
>
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> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
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