New home for downloading language packs

[Marcus Lange-2]

Hi all,

from time to time there is the question how to download language packs.
The normal installation files are quite easily available on the download
page. But how to find the langpacks?

The power users might be satisfied when they the hint to go to a mirror
server but the normal user could be lost with this.

So, I've created a download website only for these files:

http://download.openoffice.org/langpack.html

On the entry page (http://download.openoffice.org) there is also a link
to this website on the right hand side.

The language packs for the more often released Dev Builds will remain
unchanged and are still accessible on:
http://download.openoffice.org/next/other.html

Happy installing. :-)

Best regards

Marcus


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[Rafaella Braconi]

Hi Marcus,

On 10/15/09 14:41, Marcus Lange wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> from time to time there is the question how to download language
> packs. The normal installation files are quite easily available on the
> download page. But how to find the langpacks?
>
> The power users might be satisfied when they the hint to go to a
> mirror server but the normal user could be lost with this.
>
> So, I've created a download website only for these files:
>
> http://download.openoffice.org/langpack.html

this is really great. However, we do have much more languages than the
ones listed there. For example, for 3.1 the language packs released -
according to http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoRelease31 - are:
de af ar as-IN be-BY bg bn br brx bs ca cs cy da dgo dz el es en-GB
en-US en-ZA eo et eu fa fi fr ga gl gu gu-IN he hi-IN hr hu id it ja ka
kk km kn-IN ko kok ks ku lt mai mk ml-IN mn mni mr-IN my nb ne nl nn nr
ns oc or-IN pa-IN pl pt pt-BR ru rw sa-IN sat sd sh sk sl sr ss st sv
sw-TZ ta ta-IN te-IN tg th ti-ER tn tr ts uk ur-IN uz ve vi xh zh-CN
zh-TW zu

Thanks,
Rafaella

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[Joost Andrae]

Hi Rafaella,

we're talking about releases that officially finished the release
process (release QA). The other language packs are release candidates only.

Kind regards, Joost


> this is really great. However, we do have much more languages than the
> ones listed there. For example, for 3.1 the language packs released -
> according to http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoRelease31 - are:
> de af ar as-IN be-BY bg bn br brx bs ca cs cy da dgo dz el es en-GB
> en-US en-ZA eo et eu fa fi fr ga gl gu gu-IN he hi-IN hr hu id it ja ka
> kk km kn-IN ko kok ks ku lt mai mk ml-IN mn mni mr-IN my nb ne nl nn nr
> ns oc or-IN pa-IN pl pt pt-BR ru rw sa-IN sat sd sh sk sl sr ss st sv
> sw-TZ ta ta-IN te-IN tg th ti-ER tn tr ts uk ur-IN uz ve vi xh zh-CN
> zh-TW zu

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[Marcus Lange-2]

Hi Rafaella,

yes, much more were built but only a few were tested and approved for
release. Only these can be taken into account.

It's up to the native lang teams to test also language packs if they
want to make them available for the endusers. :-)

Best regards

Marcus



Rafaella Braconi wrote:

> Hi Marcus,
>
> On 10/15/09 14:41, Marcus Lange wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> from time to time there is the question how to download language
>> packs. The normal installation files are quite easily available on the
>> download page. But how to find the langpacks?
>>
>> The power users might be satisfied when they the hint to go to a
>> mirror server but the normal user could be lost with this.
>>
>> So, I've created a download website only for these files:
>>
>> http://download.openoffice.org/langpack.html
>
> this is really great. However, we do have much more languages than the
> ones listed there. For example, for 3.1 the language packs released -
> according to http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoRelease31 - are:
> de af ar as-IN be-BY bg bn br brx bs ca cs cy da dgo dz el es en-GB
> en-US en-ZA eo et eu fa fi fr ga gl gu gu-IN he hi-IN hr hu id it ja ka
> kk km kn-IN ko kok ks ku lt mai mk ml-IN mn mni mr-IN my nb ne nl nn nr
> ns oc or-IN pa-IN pl pt pt-BR ru rw sa-IN sat sd sh sk sl sr ss st sv
> sw-TZ ta ta-IN te-IN tg th ti-ER tn tr ts uk ur-IN uz ve vi xh zh-CN
> zh-TW zu
>
> Thanks,
> Rafaella

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[Uwe Fischer]

On 10/15/09 14:41, Marcus Lange wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> from time to time there is the question how to download language packs.
> The normal installation files are quite easily available on the download
> page. But how to find the langpacks?
>
> The power users might be satisfied when they the hint to go to a mirror
> server but the normal user could be lost with this.
>
> So, I've created a download website only for these files:
>
> http://download.openoffice.org/langpack.html
>
> On the entry page (http://download.openoffice.org) there is also a link
> to this website on the right hand side.
>
> The language packs for the more often released Dev Builds will remain
> unchanged and are still accessible on:
> http://download.openoffice.org/next/other.html
>
> Happy installing. :-)
>
> Best regards
>
> Marcus

thank you, Marcus

I've updated the Wiki page at
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/How_Tos/Adding_More_Languages#To_Add_More_UI_Languages

Uwe
--
   uwe.fischer@...  -  Technical Writer
   StarOffice - Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Hamburg, Germany
   http://documentation.openoffice.org/
   http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation
   http://blogs.sun.com/oootnt
   http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum

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[NoOp-4]

On 10/15/2009 06:43 AM, Uwe Fischer wrote:

> On 10/15/09 14:41, Marcus Lange wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> from time to time there is the question how to download language
>> packs. The normal installation files are quite easily available on
>> the download page. But how to find the langpacks?
>>
>> The power users might be satisfied when they the hint to go to a
>> mirror server but the normal user could be lost with this.
>>
>> So, I've created a download website only for these files:
>>
>> http://download.openoffice.org/langpack.html
>>
>> On the entry page (http://download.openoffice.org) there is also a
>> link to this website on the right hand side.
>>
>> The language packs for the more often released Dev Builds will
>> remain unchanged and are still accessible on:
>> http://download.openoffice.org/next/other.html
>>
>> Happy installing. :-)
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Marcus
>
>
> thank you, Marcus
>
> I've updated the Wiki page at
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/How_Tos/Adding_More_Languages#To_Add_More_UI_Languages
>
>  Uwe

Thanks Marcus & Uwe.

The existing 'Language Packs' link on
http://download.openoffice.org/index.html
links to:
http://download.openoffice.org/langpack.html
Which is grossly screwed up. For example, if I look at the link for
Danish 'Linux 64-bit DEB' on that page is has a link to:
<http://download.services.openoffice.org/files/localized/da/3.1.1/OOo_3.1.1_Win32Intel_langpack_da.exe>

Also, why not add a (correct) link on
http://download.openoffice.org/other.html
When you use
http://download.openoffice.org/index.html
the 'Get more platforms and languages...' link leads to this. It should
be pretty simple to add a small blurb regarding Language Packs on that
page w/links.

Perhaps it might be worthwhile to have a 'find/report broken/useless'
links contest/page (I'm quite serious about this) and post it on the
users list. The exisiting OOo website is so unwieldy at present, that it
might be quite helpful to do this. This thread on the users list is a
good example:

<http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/BrowseList?list=users&by=thread&from=2290569>







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[Joost Andrae]

Hi,

> Danish 'Linux 64-bit DEB' on that page is has a link to:
> <http://download.services.openoffice.org/files/localized/da/3.1.1/OOo_3.1.1_Win32Intel_langpack_da.exe>

I've fixed this.

Kind regards, Joost

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[Marcus Lange-2]

NoOp wrote:
> On 10/15/2009 06:43 AM, Uwe Fischer wrote:
>> On 10/15/09 14:41, Marcus Lange wrote:

Hi,

> Also, why not add a (correct) link on
> http://download.openoffice.org/other.html
> When you use
> http://download.openoffice.org/index.html
> the 'Get more platforms and languages...' link leads to this. It should
> be pretty simple to add a small blurb regarding Language Packs on that
> page w/links.

good idea, I'll do this over the day.

> Perhaps it might be worthwhile to have a 'find/report broken/useless'
> links contest/page (I'm quite serious about this) and post it on the
 > users list.

OK

Thanks

Marcus


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[Christian Lohmaier-2]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Marcus Lange <Marcus.Lange@...> wrote:
> Hi Rafaella,
>
> yes, much more were built but only a few were tested and approved for
> release. Only these can be taken into account.

That is very unfortunate - one of the reasons for using language packs
is that there is no proper QA and people at first don't find their
NL-Version and download the en-US one. Then people tell "doesn't
matter, just download and install the small languagepack" and then
again people cannot find it.

> It's up to the native lang teams to test also language packs if they want to
> make them available for the endusers. :-)

Don't agree with the smiley here.
You created the page because only "power users" are aware of mirrors.
But now you're giving the argument that you need to be power user to
use languagepacks. How does a non-power-user know about that process
when it is nowhere mentioned on the page?

At least add a prominent sentence like "If your language is not
listed, then have a look at rc directory on extended mirrors. It will
be only listed here when it has been approved by the corresponding
native-lang projects (link to the process description)

After all, those projects who are doing qa, mainly do this on the full
versions - and users of those languages are likely to download the
localized version first and are looking for the less prominent
languages as an addition.

ciao
Christian

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[Marcus Lange-2]

Hi,

I've inserted a section in both websites to link to the opposite page
and a section to report broken links.

Best regards

Marcus



Marcus Lange wrote:

> NoOp wrote:
>> On 10/15/2009 06:43 AM, Uwe Fischer wrote:
>>> On 10/15/09 14:41, Marcus Lange wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>> Also, why not add a (correct) link on
>> http://download.openoffice.org/other.html
>> When you use
>> http://download.openoffice.org/index.html
>> the 'Get more platforms and languages...' link leads to this. It should
>> be pretty simple to add a small blurb regarding Language Packs on that
>> page w/links.
>
> good idea, I'll do this over the day.
>
>> Perhaps it might be worthwhile to have a 'find/report broken/useless'
>> links contest/page (I'm quite serious about this) and post it on the
>  > users list.
>
> OK
>
> Thanks
>
> Marcus

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[Marcus Lange-2]

Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Marcus Lange <Marcus.Lange@...> wrote:

Hi Christian,

>> yes, much more were built but only a few were tested and approved for
>> release. Only these can be taken into account.
>
> That is very unfortunate - one of the reasons for using language packs
> is that there is no proper QA and people at first don't find their
> NL-Version and download the en-US one. Then people tell "doesn't
> matter, just download and install the small languagepack" and then
> again people cannot find it.

if there wouldn't be a QA for langpacks, then they wouldn't get
released. Of course not every NL community is testing all files but fact
is that they get tested and released in general.

However, using langpacks because there is no QA cannot be correct. ;-)

>> It's up to the native lang teams to test also language packs if they want to
>> make them available for the endusers. :-)
>
> Don't agree with the smiley here.
> You created the page because only "power users" are aware of mirrors.
> But now you're giving the argument that you need to be power user to
> use languagepacks. How does a non-power-user know about that process
> when it is nowhere mentioned on the page?

When you are able to install the full package, IMHO you are also able to
install a langpack.

> At least add a prominent sentence like "If your language is not
> listed, then have a look at rc directory on extended mirrors. It will
> be only listed here when it has been approved by the corresponding
> native-lang projects (link to the process description)

This website is about released versions. I don't want to mixup with not
released versions; even when a RC is close to it.

We should think of a different way to go.

> After all, those projects who are doing qa, mainly do this on the full
> versions - and users of those languages are likely to download the
> localized version first and are looking for the less prominent
> languages as an addition.

I think so, too.

Best regards

Marcus


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[Bernard Marcelly]

Hi,
IMHO translation work is probably too cautious, and this hinders usage of
OpenOffice.org.

Take swedish (sv) or spanish (es) languages :
- There is no full package available for 3.1.1, only version 3.1.0.
- The langpacks for 3.1.1 have not been released.
- But langpacks are available as 3.1.1RC2. So power users can install OOo 3.1.1
in these languages, and be happy.

Take italian (it) language :
- Full packages are released for 3.1.1
- Langpacks for 3.1.1 are *not* released.
- But langpacks are available as 3.1.1RC2.
I don't understand why the full package is released but not the langpack.

I don't understand why a langpack in RC2 stays unreleased.
RC2 means that it seems good enough for public tests. If there are some strings
not yet translated, or badly translated, this does not prevent from using
OpenOffice.org as a whole. If a user does not master one of the published
languages, it is better than nothing. And then users of this language will find
and report residual errors.

I think there are much less risks with a RC langpack than with a stable release
of OpenOffice.org.

    Bernard


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[Joost Andrae]

Hi,

I'd like to talk about the risks to release a language pack untested:

Language packs mainly contain resource files and help content besides
other items. If a resource file is broken (this can happen by accident
within the build/packaging process or by a bit turner which can happen
within a copy process) then the application will crash if such a broken
resource is called. Therefor it's necessary to check each language pack
before releasing it. Release candidates in general are untested.
On the other hand this happens seldom and usually language packs have a
good quality.

In my opinion we should stay with releasing only those binaries that
have run through the release QA process.

btw. the QA status of a release can be obtained from here:
http://qatrack.services.openoffice.org


> I don't understand why a langpack in RC2 stays unreleased.
> RC2 means that it seems good enough for public tests. If there are some
> strings not yet translated, or badly translated, this does not prevent
> from using OpenOffice.org as a whole. If a user does not master one of
> the published languages, it is better than nothing. And then users of
> this language will find and report residual errors.
>
> I think there are much less risks with a RC langpack than with a stable
> release of OpenOffice.org.

Kind regards, Joost

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[Sophie Gautier-2]

Hi Bernard,
Bernard Marcelly wrote:

> Hi,
> IMHO translation work is probably too cautious, and this hinders usage
> of OpenOffice.org.
>
> Take swedish (sv) or spanish (es) languages :
> - There is no full package available for 3.1.1, only version 3.1.0.
> - The langpacks for 3.1.1 have not been released.
> - But langpacks are available as 3.1.1RC2. So power users can install
> OOo 3.1.1 in these languages, and be happy.
>
> Take italian (it) language :
> - Full packages are released for 3.1.1
> - Langpacks for 3.1.1 are *not* released.
> - But langpacks are available as 3.1.1RC2.
> I don't understand why the full package is released but not the langpack.
>
> I don't understand why a langpack in RC2 stays unreleased.
> RC2 means that it seems good enough for public tests. If there are
> some strings not yet translated, or badly translated, this does not
> prevent from using OpenOffice.org as a whole. If a user does not
> master one of the published languages, it is better than nothing. And
> then users of this language will find and report residual errors.

This is not a matter of strings not translated, but of the stability of
the version as Joost mentioned.

Releasing or not releasing as stable has always been a difficult choice.
User that faces a not fully functional version or version that crashes
may never come back to OOo, however if you don't release the version,
you will miss testers and their feedback.

We have already seen language specific bugs and for that have decided
that a version or language pack that is not tested should not become
public.  OOo has a  QA process even for localized version, this what we
have agreed on several times ago.

I've offered my help to each l10n team to help them in this process, it
is still valid my time is still dedicated to these teams because it will
give more visibility to their versions if they are on the main network,
but also, and more important to my eyes, to their teams and the work
they have done.

Kind regards
Sophie

>
> I think there are much less risks with a RC langpack than with a
> stable release of OpenOffice.org.
>
>    Bernard
>
>
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[sophie-21]

Resent with the good adress and to l10n@ also, sorry.
Hi Bernard,
Bernard Marcelly wrote:

> Hi,
> IMHO translation work is probably too cautious, and this hinders usage
> of OpenOffice.org.
>
> Take swedish (sv) or spanish (es) languages :
> - There is no full package available for 3.1.1, only version 3.1.0.
> - The langpacks for 3.1.1 have not been released.
> - But langpacks are available as 3.1.1RC2. So power users can install
> OOo 3.1.1 in these languages, and be happy.
>
> Take italian (it) language :
> - Full packages are released for 3.1.1
> - Langpacks for 3.1.1 are *not* released.
> - But langpacks are available as 3.1.1RC2.
> I don't understand why the full package is released but not the langpack.
>
> I don't understand why a langpack in RC2 stays unreleased.
> RC2 means that it seems good enough for public tests. If there are
> some strings not yet translated, or badly translated, this does not
> prevent from using OpenOffice.org as a whole. If a user does not
> master one of the published languages, it is better than nothing. And
> then users of this language will find and report residual errors.

This is not a matter of strings not translated, but of the stability of
the version as Joost mentioned.

Releasing or not releasing as stable has always been a difficult choice.
User that faces a not fully functional version or version that crashes
may never come back to OOo, however if you don't release the version,
you will miss testers and their feedback.

We have already seen language specific bugs and for that have decided
that a version or language pack that is not tested should not become
public.  OOo has a  QA process even for localized version, this what we
have agreed on several times ago.

I've offered my help to each l10n team to help them in this process, it
is still valid my time is still dedicated to these teams because it will
give more visibility to their versions if they are on the main network,
but also, and more important to my eyes, to their teams and the work
they have done.

Kind regards
Sophie

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[bedipp]

Hi Marcus, all,

I do understand the reasons for releasing only tested versions - and I
know that Christian does, too.

But we can't ignore the demand for other languages than the ones
thoroughly tested by the community.

Marcus Lange schrieb:

> Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Marcus Lange <Marcus.Lange@...>
>> wrote:
>
> Hi Christian,
>
>>> yes, much more were built but only a few were tested and approved for
>>> release. Only these can be taken into account.
>>
>> That is very unfortunate[...]
>
> However, using langpacks because there is no QA cannot be correct. ;-)
>
>>> It's up to the native lang teams to test also language packs if they
>>> want to make them available for the endusers. :-)
>>
>> Don't agree with the smiley here.

+1

If a NL community has only the manpower to release either the full
install packs or the language packs, this should not be commented with a
happy smiley (I don't think that Marcus intended this interpretation
with his smiley).

>> You created the page because only "power users" are aware of mirrors.
>> But now you're giving the argument that you need to be power user to
>> use languagepacks. How does a non-power-user know about that process
>> when it is nowhere mentioned on the page?
>
> When you are able to install the full package, IMHO you are also able to
> install a langpack.

Christian refers to the untested lang-packs not listed on the page -
they are even more hidden than "normal" developer builds. This has
nothing to do with the ability to install a software package.
>
>> At least add a prominent sentence like "If your language is not
>> listed, then have a look at rc directory on extended mirrors. It will
>> be only listed here when it has been approved by the corresponding
>> native-lang projects (link to the process description)
>
> This website is about released versions. I don't want to mixup with not
> released versions; even when a RC is close to it.

The website is dedicated to end-users interested in downloading
OpenOffice.org.

You don't need to mix anything up  - you just should tell the people not
being able to locate their relevant translated version about the
additional languages.

What's the problem with an area containing the information about the
untested versions? If we tell them about the risks, it has several
advantages:
- People know that we work on much more languages than the finally
released ones.
- They can download these lang-packs, while being informed about the
risks, and use them in a non-productive surrounding.
- The lang-packs can serve as additional reference for people not really
firm in the language of their officially released version. (easiest on
another computer)
- People can join the native-lang communities to help the lang-packs to
be released. This kind of invitation could be mentioned on the download
page for the RC lang-packs and might lead to more contribution than any
invitation on a native-lang start website.
- Even medium experienced users have problems to locate the lang-packs.
I didn't find any information on the website about searching the RC
folder for additional lang-packs.

We link quite prominently to the RCs as long as they are official beta
versions. We should not hide the information about the additional
languages after the release of the final versions.

Best regards

Bernhard

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[NoOp-4]

On 10/16/2009 08:58 AM, Marcus Lange wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've inserted a section in both websites to link to the opposite page
> and a section to report broken links.
>
> Best regards
>
> Marcus

Thanks! & thanks Joost.



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[Cor Nouws]

Hi *,

Bernhard Dippold wrote (16-10-2009 23:37)

> What's the problem with an area containing the information about the
> untested versions? If we tell them about the risks, it has several
> advantages:
> - People know that we work on much more languages than the finally
> released ones.
> - They can download these lang-packs, while being informed about the
> risks, and use them in a non-productive surrounding.
> - The lang-packs can serve as additional reference for people not really
> firm in the language of their officially released version. (easiest on
> another computer)
> - People can join the native-lang communities to help the lang-packs to
> be released. This kind of invitation could be mentioned on the download
> page for the RC lang-packs and might lead to more contribution than any
> invitation on a native-lang start website.
> - Even medium experienced users have problems to locate the lang-packs.
> I didn't find any information on the website about searching the RC
> folder for additional lang-packs.

Yes, simply make clear, that
- more langpacks / versions exist, but not officially released, since
the final checks have not (yet) been done;
- people can find those there and there ...
- people are more than welcome to help a little to check so that the
official release can be done.
The minimum necessary checks to make a version to an official release
are not that much. (I do not speak about all important tests that are
done during TCM/Beta/RC/DevBuilds etc!) For langpacks, this even is less.

This information fits in the section OpenOffice.org - "Download stable
releases"  on the download-other page.

Regards,
Cor

>
> We link quite prominently to the RCs as long as they are official beta
> versions. We should not hide the information about the additional
> languages after the release of the final versions.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard
>
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Cor Nouws
   - nl.OpenOffice.org marketing contact
   - Community Contributor Representative in the Community Council
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[Cor Nouws]

NoOp wrote (17-10-2009 6:05)
> On 10/16/2009 08:58 AM, Marcus Lange wrote:
>> I've inserted a section in both websites to link to the opposite page
>> and a section to report broken links.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Marcus
>
> Thanks! & thanks Joost.

+1
Cor

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[Marcus Lange-2]

Hi all,

I think I haven't taken into account the many differences with builds,
testing and NL communities. So, I'm sorry if anyone feels offend. This
was not my intension or to ignore the situation.

I'll think about what could be done to provide the builds to the users
(tested or not, released or not). Because it's a very high number this
will be not easy. And take into account that someone has to maintain
this monster of list (7 platforms with 90+ languages). ;-)

Just wanted to take the chance to answer here early before my absence
the next week. Therefore please don't expect to have a fast solution.

Best regards

Marcus



Ankit Patel wrote:

> +1 to the discussion.
>
> Having a download page for all localized OpenOffice.org language packs where two different categories, one for "supported & tested" versions of language packs and another for "beta & untested though translated" versions of language packs, listed would solve the matter I believe.
>
> --- On Sat, 17/10/09, Mechtilde <ooo@...> wrote:
>
>> From: Mechtilde <ooo@...>
>> Subject: Re: [l10n-dev] New home for downloading language packs
>> To: dev@...
>> Date: Saturday, 17 October, 2009, 1:44 PM
>> Hello,
>>
>> Martin Srebotnjak schrieb:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Also, just out of my curiosity, can you list recent
>> examples when a
>>> fully localized national sdf with gsicheck passed
>> successfully (no
>>> errors nor warnings) did not work as expected (like
>> crashed etc.)?
>>
>> Yes, we have
>>
>> E.g. the Polish Win version didn't start after installing.
>>
>> The goal of the NL version tests should be that it is
>> usable for the
>> normal user and didn't have severe bugs which are not in
>> the EN version.
>>
>> It is not the goal that the NL version has to be better
>> than the EN version.
>>> Finally - as these tests are already automatic in many
>> ways - could
>>> not this process be automatized even further, so that
>> with any RC
>>> build the tests would be made automatically by OOo
>> servers for all
>>> available languages and the teams should only go
>> through visual
>>> (screenshots) and text results neatly organized and
>> published on the
>>> website (like a 3-5 minute job) and vote either YES or
>> NO at the end?
>>> The only prerequisite for teams would be to fully
>> localize the tests
>>> (another po file in the tree and in Pootle) used by
>> this system.
>>
>> The automatic tests cannot provide you for such things like
>> described
>> above. But they can easy detect by some manual tests
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mechtilde

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