New proposed libpng migration plan

[Glenn Randers-Pehrson]

Although the kludge for making libpng-1.2.41beta13 binary compatible
with libpng-1.2.40 with regard to adding iTXt support appears to work,
I don't like it much, and I suspect Greg won't either.  See pngset.c,
png_set_txt().

Also, adding a bunch of other functions from 1.4.0, although binary
compatible, seems like a lot of change from 1.2.40 which we previously
stated would be the end of the line for 1.0.x/1.2.x except for
security changes.

How about this:

     1. Stop 1.0.x/1.2.x development at 1.0.50/1.2.40 except for
     security updates, as previously announced.

     2. Continue development of source-compatible
     changes in 1.4.0 (i.e., rename 1.2.41beta14
     to 1.4.0beta92 and remove the iTXt version-checking
     stuff).  This adds iTXt support,  keeps the 1.2.x deprecated
     functions, and keeps the old png_ptr member names (trans
     and trans_values).  Release 1.4.0 within a month or two.

     3. Continue development of non-ABI-compatible and
     non-source-compatible changes
     in 1.6.0 (i.e., rename the current 1.4.0beta92 to 1.6.0beta01).
     This splits out pngpriv.h, removes deprecated functions, and makes
     other non-compatible changes such as the change
     of signature of png_malloc() and the names of png_ptr->trans
     to png_ptr->trans_alphas and png_ptr->trans_values to
     png_ptr->trans_color.   Release 1.6.0 in  a year or five.

Glenn

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[John Bowler]

From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson [mailto:glennrp@...]
>How about this:

I don't like this at all.  The original plan is much better:

1) Freeze 1.0/1.2 at 1.0.50/1.2.40 except for true security patches.
2) Release 1.4.0 now.

Since I've now been running 1.4.0 as my only libpng on a major release
(gentoo) for several days, and since all I had to do to get this up and
running was the set of patches I identified, I don't see any problems.

The only API changes in 1.4 that seem to affect a lot of applications are
simple name changes (set_expand_gray and the trans_colors stuff.)  That's
hardly an API change at all - I didn't need to understand a single line of
app code to get 1.4 working!

>     1. Stop 1.0.x/1.2.x development at 1.0.50/1.2.40 except for
>     security updates, as previously announced.
>
>     2. Continue development of source-compatible
>     changes in 1.4.0 (i.e., rename 1.2.41beta14
>     to 1.4.0beta92 and remove the iTXt version-checking
>     stuff).  This adds iTXt support,  keeps the 1.2.x deprecated
>     functions, and keeps the old png_ptr member names (trans
>     and trans_values).  Release 1.4.0 within a month or two.
>
>     3. Continue development of non-ABI-compatible and
>     non-source-compatible changes
>     in 1.6.0 (i.e., rename the current 1.4.0beta92 to 1.6.0beta01).
>     This splits out pngpriv.h, removes deprecated functions, and makes
>     other non-compatible changes such as the change
>     of signature of png_malloc() and the names of png_ptr->trans
>     to png_ptr->trans_alphas and png_ptr->trans_values to
>     png_ptr->trans_color.   Release 1.6.0 in  a year or five.

Or never.  It's not going to get any easier.

John Bowler <jbowler@...>



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[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, John Bowler wrote:

> From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson [mailto:glennrp@...]
>> How about this:
>
> I don't like this at all.  The original plan is much better:
>
> 1) Freeze 1.0/1.2 at 1.0.50/1.2.40 except for true security patches.
> 2) Release 1.4.0 now.

+0.999999999999999999
+0.000000000000000001

Bob
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GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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[Glenn Randers-Pehrson]

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 12:11 PM, John Bowler <jbowler@...> wrote:
> From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson [mailto:glennrp@...]
>>How about this:
>
> I don't like this at all.  The original plan is much better:
>
> 1) Freeze 1.0/1.2 at 1.0.50/1.2.40 except for true security patches.
> 2) Release 1.4.0 now.

   Well, that would be fine with me as well, except I thought someone
   (you?) said the rename of png_ptr->trans, etc., was a "showstopper".

   Glenn

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[Glenn Randers-Pehrson]

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Bob Friesenhahn
<bfriesen@...> wrote:

> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, John Bowler wrote:
>
>> From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson [mailto:glennrp@...]
>>> How about this:
>>
>> I don't like this at all.  The original plan is much better:
>>
>> 1) Freeze 1.0/1.2 at 1.0.50/1.2.40 except for true security patches.
>> 2) Release 1.4.0 now.
>
> +0.999999999999999999
> +0.000000000000000001

Is that my "2)" or John's?

I don't want a solution that does not involve supporting iTXt soon.

Glenn

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[John Bowler]

From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson [mailto:glennrp@...]
>   Well, that would be fine with me as well, except I thought someone
>   (you?) said the rename of png_ptr->trans, etc., was a "showstopper".

Well... nothing is going to change outside libpng until 1.4.0 is released!

Either you release 1.4.0 so the major libraries (Qt, KDE) can fix their code
(GTK seems ok) or take my patches to 1.4.0, in which case it just works.

It's safer to just release now and see how prepared the other guys are to
fix code.  It may take a while but having hacky anonymous unions in the
official release strikes me as bad.  OS builders can apply my patches
themselves if they feel compelled to have 1.4.0 working.

John Bowler <jbowler@...>



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[Glenn Randers-Pehrson]

Today's migration plan:

     1. Release 1.2.41 (and 1.0.51) very soon.  They will
         contain some migration aids (the new PNG_DEPRECATED
         macro, etc.) to help people clean up applications so they
         will work with 1.4.0 and hopefully 2.0.0,  After this,
         only security releases in the 1.0.x/1.2.x series.

     2. Release 1.4.0 very soon.  I believe someone is working
         on updated vc projects (with the ASM stuff stripped) so
         we will wait for those before going to "rc".

     3. Strip out scripts and code that we think is obsolete and
         release 1.4.1 later on without them.

Glenn

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[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote:
>
>     2. Release 1.4.0 very soon.  I believe someone is working
>         on updated vc projects (with the ASM stuff stripped) so
>         we will wait for those before going to "rc".
>
>     3. Strip out scripts and code that we think is obsolete and
>         release 1.4.1 later on without them.

I think that most people here will consider that #2 and #3 are in the
wrong order.  Usually when a file/feature is included in a release it
is expected to be supported and will remain in subsequent minor
releases.

Bob
--
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bfriesen@..., http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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[Glenn Randers-Pehrson]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Bob Friesenhahn
<bfriesen@...> wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote:
>>
>>     2. Release 1.4.0 very soon.  I believe someone is working
>>         on updated vc projects (with the ASM stuff stripped) so
>>         we will wait for those before going to "rc".
>>
>>     3. Strip out scripts and code that we think is obsolete and
>>         release 1.4.1 later on without them.
>
> I think that most people here will consider that #2 and #3 are in the
> wrong order.  Usually when a file/feature is included in a release it
> is expected to be supported and will remain in subsequent minor
> releases.

OK,

     3. Strip out scripts and code that we think is obsolete and
         release 1.6.0 later on without them.  Then respond to
         complaints by reinstalling them in 1.6.1 or later.

Glenn

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[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote:
>
>     3. Strip out scripts and code that we think is obsolete and
>         release 1.6.0 later on without them.  Then respond to
>         complaints by reinstalling them in 1.6.1 or later.

It is amazing to me that you are able to maintain all this stuff.  You
must be the equivalent of a marathon runner as a maintainer.  I would
not be able to deal with it since it would be too daunting for me.

What type of ACORN hardware to you have to test with?  Do you keep a
MS-DOS system around to test with Turbo C 3.00 and Borland C++ 4.0?
How is a user to know if they should use makefile.elf rather than
makefile.linux on a Linux system?

It seems to me that libpng 1.4 is better off by only including
maintainable components.

Bob
--
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bfriesen@..., http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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[Glenn Randers-Pehrson]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Bob Friesenhahn
<bfriesen@...> wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote:
>>
>>     3. Strip out scripts and code that we think is obsolete and
>>         release 1.6.0 later on without them.  Then respond to
>>         complaints by reinstalling them in 1.6.1 or later.
>
> It is amazing to me that you are able to maintain all this stuff.  You
> must be the equivalent of a marathon runner as a maintainer.  I would
> not be able to deal with it since it would be too daunting for me.
>
> What type of ACORN hardware to you have to test with?  Do you keep a
> MS-DOS system around to test with Turbo C 3.00 and Borland C++ 4.0?
> How is a user to know if they should use makefile.elf rather than
> makefile.linux on a Linux system?

The makefiles are mostly donated by people who did have the
appropriate hardware and OS to test them.  I don't really think much
has happened to make those makefiles invalid.

If you prefer, we could remove *all* of the makefiles and see who
screams.  Getting into a debate about which ones to remove and
which to keep seems to me to be a prescription for putting off
1.4.0 indefinitely.

Glenn

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[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote:
>
> The makefiles are mostly donated by people who did have the
> appropriate hardware and OS to test them.  I don't really think much
> has happened to make those makefiles invalid.

The main thing that has happend is that it is 2009 now, which is quite
distant from 1993, when hobbyists were still playing with this old
hardware and old compilers.  I still see 1986-1988 vintage software
and hardware being supported by the build scripts.

Bob
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GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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[John Bowler-3]

From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson [mailto:glennrp@...]
>If you prefer, we could remove *all* of the makefiles and see who
>screams.  Getting into a debate about which ones to remove and
>which to keep seems to me to be a prescription for putting off
>1.4.0 indefinitely.

I like this idea (remove everything.)

I suggest moving the stuff needed by configure to projects/configure/ and
then removing *all* of scripts/  If necessary introduce projects/cygwin and
projects/vms

If not, the 'makefile.acorn' should be 'makefile.riscos' (Acorn no longer
exists and RISC OS is now, apparently, owned by RISC OS Ltd, or Pace or
Castle Technologies depending on what branch of the IP you want.)

John Bowler <jbowler@...>



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[Glenn Randers-Pehrson]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:59 PM, John Bowler
<john.cunningham.bowler@...> wrote:

> From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson [mailto:glennrp@...]
>>If you prefer, we could remove *all* of the makefiles and see who
>>screams.  Getting into a debate about which ones to remove and
>>which to keep seems to me to be a prescription for putting off
>>1.4.0 indefinitely.
>
> I like this idea (remove everything.)
>
> I suggest moving the stuff needed by configure to projects/configure/ and
> then removing *all* of scripts/  If necessary introduce projects/cygwin and
> projects/vms
>
> If not, the 'makefile.acorn' should be 'makefile.riscos' (Acorn no longer
> exists and RISC OS is now, apparently, owned by RISC OS Ltd, or Pace or
> Castle Technologies depending on what branch of the IP you want.)
>
> John Bowler <jbowler@...>
>

All right, all right, I'll do it.
In 1.5.0beta00.  We can play with that concurrently with getting 1.4.0 out.

Glenn

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[Glenn Randers-Pehrson]

Maybe I asked this before and got a negative response, but,
would it make people happy if we remove the scripts directory
from the configure-supporting distribution and from the
zip/7z distributions, and continue delivering it only in
the -noconfig.tar.* and in the GIT repository?
( I think the answer last time may have been to discontinue
the -noconfig distribution....)

Glenn

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[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote:

> Maybe I asked this before and got a negative response, but,
> would it make people happy if we remove the scripts directory
> from the configure-supporting distribution and from the
> zip/7z distributions, and continue delivering it only in
> the -noconfig.tar.* and in the GIT repository?
> ( I think the answer last time may have been to discontinue
> the -noconfig distribution....)

The approach which most limits the available confusing options and
limits the degree of cruft is the one which should be used.

Maybe the -noconfig distribution should be eliminated and all of the
non-critical libpng build scripts should be moved to a
libpng-build-scripts package, which only includes a bit of
documentation and the scripts.

Bob
--
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bfriesen@..., http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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[Ralph Giles-2]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Glenn Randers-Pehrson
<glennrp@...> wrote:

> Maybe I asked this before and got a negative response, but,
> would it make people happy if we remove the scripts directory
> from the configure-supporting distribution and from the
> zip/7z distributions, and continue delivering it only in
> the -noconfig.tar.* and in the GIT repository?

I would be happy if both 'scripts' and '-noconfig' went way. And we
actually use the -noconfig version sometimes. :)

 -r

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[glennrp-2]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Giles" <giles@...>
To: "PNG/MNG implementation discussion list" <png-mng-implement@...>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 3:01:23 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [png-mng-implement] New proposed libpng migration plan

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Glenn Randers-Pehrson
<glennrp@...> wrote:

> Maybe I asked this before and got a negative response, but,
> would it make people happy if we remove the scripts directory
> from the configure-supporting distribution and from the
> zip/7z distributions, and continue delivering it only in
> the -noconfig.tar.* and in the GIT repository?

I would be happy if both 'scripts' and '-noconfig' went way. And we
actually use the -noconfig version sometimes. :)

    "-noconfig" is already gone from libpng-1.4.0.

    Which really leaves no place to put the scripts directory
    except in a separately distributed file.  But to avoid
    swamping SourceForge we need to be minimizing the number
    of files.

    Testing the removal of "scripts" and "projects" only
    saves about 50kbytes from the 800k compressed tarball.

    It seems to me that people only interested in
    "configure; make" don't need to look at the scripts
    and projects directories.  I moved libpng.pc-configure.in
    and libpng-config.in out of scripts into $top_src so
    "configure" no longer depends on anything in scripts,
    but it does introduce two more files of clutter into
    $top_src.

    Glenn

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[Ralph Giles-2]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 3:02 PM,  <glennrp@...> wrote:

>    Testing the removal of "scripts" and "projects" only
>    saves about 50kbytes from the 800k compressed tarball.

For me it's more about clutter and having to decide which file one is
supposed to use, than the file size itself. If file size mattered, I'd
use the -noconfig option more often :)

 -r

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[glennrp-2]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Giles" <giles@...>
To: "PNG/MNG implementation discussion list" <png-mng-implement@...>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:40:48 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [png-mng-implement] New proposed libpng migration plan

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 3:02 PM,  <glennrp@...> wrote:

>    Testing the removal of "scripts" and "projects" only
>    saves about 50kbytes from the 800k compressed tarball.

For me it's more about clutter and having to decide which file one is
supposed to use, than the file size itself. If file size mattered, I'd
use the -noconfig option more often :)

        -noconfig has been gone since libpng-1.4.0beta77.

        I suppose we should bring it back, to have a place to
        put the projects and scripts.

        -noconfig and .zip are still getting about ten percent
        of the downloads from SourceForge for libpng-1.2.39 and 40.

        It's hard to tell what the statistics mean, though. the tar.bz2
        gets a lot of hits from scripts that build various applications,
        automatically satisfying a dependency on libpng.
       
        Some of those use one of the libpng makefiles, not the libpng
        configure script.  I believe a huge fraction of the users don't
        see the clutter and don't have to make any decisions.

        For now, I prefer to just leave things as they are in
        libpng-1.4.0beta97 (or 98 if you want to git the most recent
        version).

        Distributing the scripts separately is going to be a
        nightmare.....  Note that each release will need to have
        its own set of makefiles, and separate downloading is
        bound to cause mismatches.

        Glenn

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